Fighter is smart now!

[XionUnborn01]

Okay, so in -this thread- (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=327976) we've been working on some features of what a fighter needs and should have. I've assembled the features that I could establish well enough to make into class features.

I know that this class isn't going to be the end all, be all of fighters but I hope that it's in the realm of being fun, enjoyable, and relevant enough in pretty much every situation. While I'm not a great judge of placing things in tiers, I think this sits in the top of tier 4 or bottom of tier 3 though this is purely an estimate.

I tried to keep from front loading the class too much to avoid making it super dippable, though I guess a 2, 3 or even 4 level dip would be pretty good still.

Please give me feedback and critique what we've got, this isn't completely done but I want to get the playground's input on what it is so far. Without further adieu, I give you The Fighter version 321234059.527

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|+1|+2|+0|+2|Commander's Tongue, Bonus Feat, Powerful Presence

2nd|+2|+3|+0|+3|Bonus Feat, Powerful Speech, Spell Reflection, Dowsing Sense

3rd|+3|+3|+1|+3|Bitter Experience, Quick Thinking, Mettle, Calloused Warrior

4th|+4|+4|+1|+4|Warband's Knowledge, Weapon's Mastery

5th|+5|+4|+1|+4|Insightful Dodge, Combat Awareness (15ft), Veteran's Sight (15%)

6th|+6/+1|+5|+2|+5|Evasion,Distracting Defender

7th|+7/+2|+5|+2|+5|Wary Disbelief, Prime Target

8th|+8/+3|+6|+2|+6|Quick Command, Veteran's Sight (30%)

9th|+9/+4|+6|+3|+6|Combat Awareness (30ft)

10th|+10/+5|+7|+3|+7|Salvo of Strikes

11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+7|Veteran's Sight (45%), Legendary Strike

12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+8|Wary Eyes

13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+8|Combat Awareness (60ft), Gleaned Knowledge

14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+9|Veteran's Sight (60%)

15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+9|

16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+10|

17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+10|Combat Awareness (120ft), Veteran's Sight (75%)

18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+11|

19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+11|

20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+12|Veteran's Sight (All Miss Chance), Ageless Veteran

[/table]


Commander's Tongue: At 1st level and every two levels thereafter, the fighter learns a new language. This can be any language other than secret languages.

Bonus Feat: Same as PHB.

Powerful Presence(Ex): At 1st level, A fighter may add his Strength modifier to his Intimidate checks whenever the target can see him.

Spell Reflection(Ex): At 2nd level, the fighter gains a +2 bonus to AC against spells and spell like abilities. At 5th level, if an enemy misses you with a spell or spell like ability, you can use an immediate action to reflect it back at them. The spell or ability attacks the original caster (who makes a new attack roll using the same modifier as the original attack).If it hits, the caster is subject to the normal effect of the spell or ability, though it's caster level is reduced by 4. You can use this ability a number of times equal to your Int modifier+1 (minimum 1). At 9th level, the effect no longer has it's caster level reduced and at 14th level, it's caster level is increased by 4.

Powerful Speech(Ex): At 2nd level, a fighter takes only half the penalty to intimidate for each size category smaller than the target he is. At 6th level, a demoralized opponent is demoralized for 1d4 extra rounds and you can demoralize an opponent from 15ft away. At 10th level you can demoralize as a move action and you no longer take penalties due to being smaller than your target. At 14th level, a fighter can intimidate targets immune to fear and the target's attitude no longer shifts to unfriendly or hostile after being intimidated. At 18th level a fighter can demoralize as a swift action and can use it from up to 30ft away.

Dowsing Sense(Sp): At 2nd level, a fighter is constantly under the effect of the Know Direction (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/knowDirection.htm) spell. At 6th level a fighter can use Locate Object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/locateObject.htm) Int modifier times/day. At 12th level, a fighter can use Find The Path (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/findThePath.htm) Int modifier times/day. These are spell-like abilities.

Calloused Warrior(Ex): A fighter's seen enough fighting in his time that he eventually becomes accustomed to certain tricks.
3rd level you gain immunity to fear and sleep effects.
6th level you gain immunity to paralysis and poisons.
9th level you gain immunity to all disease and petrification and you always know who targeted you with an spell, spell like ability, or other effect whether or not you succeeded the saving throw.
12th level you gain immunity to polymorph effects though you may be subject to a beneficial effect if you specifically allow it.
15th level you gain immunity to death effects.
18th level you gain immunity to mind effecting spells and if you are targeted with one, you may turn it back on it's caster causing them to lose their next turn if they fail a Wil save DC 10+1/2 HD+Int.

Quick Thinking(Ex): Starting at 3rd level, A Fighter gains his Int bonus on his Initiative checks in addition to his dex.

Bitter Experience (Ex): Upon reaching 3rd level, A Fighter may use their class level in place of their ranks for the purposes of all Listen, Spot, and Sense Motive checks.

Mettle(Ex): A fighter of 3rd level gains Mettle As a Hexblade.

Weapon Mastery(Su): At 4th level you choose any +1 special weapon ability. This applies to every weapon you wield as long as it could normally be applied to that type of weapon. At 8th level you may choose another +1 ability, at 12th and 16th level level you may choose any +2 ability, at 20th level you may choose any +4 ability. With any of these, you may choose to split up the abilities into lower level ones, for instance, at 16th level you may instead choose to get two +1 enchantments.

Warband's Knowledge(Ex): At 4th level, A fighter gains a +4 bonus on
Knowledge (nobility and royalty), Knowledge (history), and Knowledge (Geography).

Insightful Dodge(Ex):At 5th level, A fighter gains his Int bonus to AC
when he's not flatfooted or helpless.

Combat Awareness(Ex): A fighter has an uncanny awareness of his surroundings, this equates to Blindsense 15ft at 5th level, 30ft at 9th, 60ft at 13th, 120ft at 17th.

Veteran's Sight(Ex): At 5th level a Fighter reduces the miss chance
from any source, including blindness, darkness or incorporeality (assuming he can damage an incorporeal creature) by 15%. So a fighter attacking a displacer beast would have only a 35% miss chance. This increases by 15% at 8th, 11th, 14th, and 17th level until, at 20th level, all miss chances are negated.
All allies within 15 feet of the fighter gain half the benefit of this feature (rounded down) as the fighter directs and assists them.

Evasion(Ex): At 6th level a fighter gains evasion As a Rogue, though it functions in all types of armor.

Distracting Defender(Ex): Starting At 6th level, a fighter is treated as one size category bigger for the purposes of determining if he blocks line of sight or line of effect. At 13th level, a fighter is treated as two size categories bigger, and at 20th level he is treated is three sizes bigger.

Wary Disbelief(Ex): At 7th level A fighter gains a +5 bonus on saving throws against illusions and furthermore, may make a saving throw without interacting with an illusion provided it is withing 10ft per point of Int modifier.

Prime Target(Su): At 7th level, At the start of every encounter, any
enemy present with Int 3 or more must make a Will Save DC 10+1/2Fighter's Level+Str. Any enemy that fails must attack the fighter to the best of it's ability, without taking obvious unsafe action. For example, a creature would not charge through a group of enemies just to get to the fighter on the other side, but it would ignore closer opponents if the fighter is reachable. This ability lasts for 1d4 rounds, after which the target must save again. If the target is demoralized by the fighter, this ability lasts as long as the demoralization plus 1d4 rounds.

Quick Command(Ex): At 8th level The fighter's allies all gain a bonus to initiative equal to his Int modifier if they are within 20 feet.

Salvo of Strikes(Ex): At 10th level a fighter may use a full round action to unleash a barrage of attacks. He may attack a number of times equal to his iterative attacks granted from his BAB plus additional attacks equal to his Int modifier all extra attacks are at his highest BAB. He may move between each attack if he wishes but no more than twice his land speed total for the turn. A fighter is fatigued for 1d10 minutes afterwards. At 15th level, he may instead may make extra attacks equal to twice Int modifier. A fighter is now fatigued for 1d8 minutes afterwards instead. At 20th level, he may make extra attacks equal to three times his Int Modifier. A fighter is now fatigued for 1d4 minutes afterwards instead.

Legendary Strike(Ex): At 11th level, A fighter that strikes a creature with 8HD less than him with a melee attack can choose to either slay the creature outright or knock it unconscious. If he chooses to slay the creature, it gets a Fort Save DC 10+Fighter's Level+Str Modifier. If he succeeds he is Nauseated for Str modifier rounds. If the Fighter chooses to knock the creature unconscious, it must make a Wil Save DC 10+1/2Fighter's Level+Str Modifier. If he succeeds, he is dazed for Str Modifier rounds. This can only be used once per round. At 19th level, they can use this ability on any creature with 4hd less than them.

Wary Eyes(Ex): At 12th level, a fighter counts as always taking 10 on spot for anything within 30 feet. At 18th level, this increases to 60 feet.

Gleaned Knowledge(Ex):At 13th level, a fighter is treated as having 1 rank in any knowledge skill he hasn't invested ranks into.

Magic Warp (Sp): Starting at 16th level, the fighter can stop magic in their general area. They get [I]Antimagic Field (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm)[/I as a spell-like ability, with the following exceptions: any ability created by the fighter and any equipment worn or used by the fighter is not subject to the field, the fighter can suppress the field as an immediate action but must spend a move action to re-activate it, and once per round the fighter can designate one target to be immune to the field for that round.

Ageless Veteran(Ex): At 20th level a fighter becomes immune to aging, magically or otherwise, he has no maximum age and incurs no further aging penalties but retains the bonuses he would gain. He is counted as an outsider whenever it would be beneficial to him and he gains Damage Reduction equal to his Strength score overcome by weapons with descriptors of both the fighter's alignment (a neutral alignment on either/both axis allows them to choose the type that overcomes their DR). A fighter also gains a Frightful Presence out to 30 feet that can be activated or deactivated as a free action.

[XionUnborn01]

Reserved for editing and additions and such

[Just to Browse]

The first thing I look at when I review at a piece of homebrew is the class table. If the class table makes my eyes glaze over, I am hard-pressed to rate that homebrew.

You need to consolidate a lot of your features. I know it's cool to let players know at what levels their blindsight ramps up and at which levels they gain a bonus language, but that adds way too much noise to the class table.

If something is really so important that it must be included multiple times, give it a second column.

[Vadskye]

This is clearly the product of a collaborative design effort among many people. It's a bloated mish-mash of somewhat related abilities that tries to allow the fighter to fulfill every archetype - and in doing so, prevents the class from having any sort of consistent design or fulfilling any particular archetype well.

[XionUnborn01]

The first thing I look at when I review at a piece of homebrew is the class table. If the class table makes my eyes glaze over, I am hard-pressed to rate that homebrew.

You need to consolidate a lot of your features. I know it's cool to let players know at what levels their blindsight ramps up and at which levels they gain a bonus language, but that adds way too much noise to the class table.

If something is really so important that it must be included multiple times, give it a second column.

Gah, you're right. I'll fix that now. I had left it in during during working so I knew what each level was giving out. Thank you for pointing it out, I realize that it nearly makes your eyes bleed when you look at it.

EDIT: I cleaned it up. I personally like having the blindsight and miss chance reduction in the table because that's something that I might forget to check if it changed as a player though if others agree that it's too much, I'll gladly remove it.

[XionUnborn01]

This is clearly the product of a collaborative design effort among many people. It's a bloated mish-mash of somewhat related abilities that tries to allow the fighter to fulfill every archetype - and in doing so, prevents the class from having any sort of consistent design or fulfilling any particular archetype well.

I know I'm biased on this but I guess I feel that overall it's a warrior that has some battlefield effecting abilities (Prime target, Distracting Defender), who is smart (Bitter Experience, Gleaned Knowledge, Warband's Knowledge), and a good fighter (Salvo of Strikes, Legendary Strike).

I know that not everything is meshed together right now perfectly and there's flaws. This isn't 100% completed yet but I wanted to get feedback on the class as it stands right now because if every class feature that's been created isn't well received it's of no use to go on with the project.

[qwertyu63]

Alright, this seems like a good idea, but you have several formatting issues:

Nix the spoilers. The class features can go without them and it takes to long to open them.

To demonstrate some other issues, let's look and one of their features:


Magic Warp(Su): 16th level This ability functions as Antimagic Field (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm) with the following exceptions; Any ability created by the fighter is not subject to the field, the fighter can lower the field as an immediate action but must spend a move action to re-activate it, and once/round the fighter can designate one target to be immune to the field for that round. The fighter can use this ability a number of times per day equal to their Int modifier. This is a Spell-like ability.

It should look something like this:

"Magic Warp (Sp): Starting at 16th level, the fighter can stop magic in their general area. They get Antimagic Field as a spell-like ability, with the following exceptions: any ability created by the fighter is not subject to the field, the fighter can suppress the field as an immediate action but must spend a move action to re-activate it, and once per round the fighter can designate one target to be immune to the field for that round."

Your first mistake was listing this as a (Su) ability. As you said "This is a Spell-like ability." That means it needs to be listed as an (Sp) ability.

You shouldn't just say "16th level". You need to be clear what you mean.

The list of exceptions for this exact feature also needs work, but I'll let someone else get to that.

I'd say more, but I can't be arsed to open all of those spoilers.

[ddude987]

Also, with the amf ability, I feel as though as written it doesn't exclude the fighter's magic items from the amf. They are not abilities created by the fighter, and as such, are subject to not working. Not sure if this was the intended effect.

[XionUnborn01]

Alright, this seems like a good idea, but you have several formatting issues:

Nix the spoilers. The class features can go without them and it takes to long to open them.

Okay, I can do that. I put them in because I prefer that personally to a wall of text but I can see what you mean be it being annoying to open them all.



"Magic Warp (Sp): Starting at 16th level, the fighter can stop magic in their general area. They get Antimagic Field as a spell-like ability, with the following exceptions: any ability created by the fighter is not subject to the field, the fighter can suppress the field as an immediate action but must spend a move action to re-activate it, and once per round the fighter can designate one target to be immune to the field for that round."

Your first mistake was listing this as a (Su) ability. As you said "This is a Spell-like ability." That means it needs to be listed as an (Sp) ability.

You shouldn't just say "16th level". You need to be clear what you mean.

The list of exceptions for this exact feature also needs work, but I'll let someone else get to that.

The weird level tags in some of the abilities are there because I hadn't decided if that's where they were most appropriate and the ability placement is the biggest thing I was hoping for feedback on. I've always had trouble getting the wording quite right for features that I write but I'll go ahead and steal your if that's okay, I assume so but I'll wait for confirmation.

It is supposed to include magic items, for some reason I just forgot to include it. I'll definitely add that in.

[Debihuman]

I think you should fix Veteran's Sight so that the miss chance affects incorporeal creatures. An incorporeal creature has a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source. The same is not true for ethereal creatures. Ethereal creatures are those from the Ethereal plane. Displacer beasts are neither ethereal nor incorporeal.

Veteran's Sight (Ex): At 5th level a Fighter reduces the miss chance
from any source, including blindness, darkness, and incorporeality (assuming he can damage an incorporeal creature) by 15%. For example, a fighter attacking a displacer beast would have only a 35% miss chance instead of the normal 50%. This ability increases by 15% at 8th, 11th, 14th, and 17th levels until, at 20th level, all miss chances are negated.

Debby

[ddude987]

Personally, I don't think the fighter should have Evasion. A poor reflex save seems to support evasion from a flavor perspective even less. Also, he already gets mettle. Perhaps Uncanny Dodge instead? Just a thought.

A second point, the class is very front loaded, even if its frontloaded for 6-8 levels worth. Maybe spread some abilities out more.

Lastly, as written some progressions don't "increase" per X levels, just have static increases at levels A, B, and C. Not 100% certain how this interacts with epic level progression, but to avoid confusion perhaps write them as increasing by Y every X levels. For example: Blindsense: At 5th level the fighter gains blindsense out to 15 ft. This range increases by 15 ft. every 4 levels (9, 13, et cetra) (if you wanted it capped) to a max of Z

[qwertyu63]

Okay, I can do that. I put them in because I prefer that personally to a wall of text but I can see what you mean be it being annoying to open them all.

Thank you, I'll read over them soon.


The weird level tags in some of the abilities are there because I hadn't decided if that's where they were most appropriate and the ability placement is the biggest thing I was hoping for feedback on. I've always had trouble getting the wording quite right for features that I write but I'll go ahead and steal your if that's okay, I assume so but I'll wait for confirmation.


Go right ahead.

[XionUnborn01]

I think you should fix Veteran's Sight so that the miss chance affects incorporeal creatures. An incorporeal creature has a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source. The same is not true for ethereal creatures. Ethereal creatures are those from the Ethereal plane. Displacer beasts are neither ethereal nor incorporeal.

Veteran's Sight (Ex): At 5th level a Fighter reduces the miss chance
from any source, including blindness, darkness, and incorporeality (assuming he can damage an incorporeal creature) by 15%. For example, a fighter attacking a displacer beast would have only a 35% miss chance instead of the normal 50%. This ability increases by 15% at 8th, 11th, 14th, and 17th levels until, at 20th level, all miss chances are negated.

Debby

Wow, can't believe that hasn't been noticed before. Yeah, you're totally on the money with what I wanted, it's been fixed. Just to make sure there's no confusion, the displacer beast example is there because it has a built in miss chance, not because I thought it had ethereality/incorporeality. Just wanted to clarify that.


Personally, I don't think the fighter should have Evasion. A poor reflex save seems to support evasion from a flavor perspective even less. Also, he already gets mettle. Perhaps Uncanny Dodge instead? Just a thought.

I understand your viewpoint but I think if you imagine it how I do, it makes sense. If you're familiar with DBZ or various other anime/cartoon fighting shows there are often times when someone 'dodges' being damaged by an explosion by simply putting their arm up and hiding their head. That's what I see the fighter's evasion doing. They're not jumping/diving out of the way, they're quickly getting themselves into a position to take the effect in the least harmful way.

That being said, if others agree that it doesn't fit I'll take it out. No point trying to implement a feature no one wants.


A second point, the class is very front loaded, even if its frontloaded for 6-8 levels worth. Maybe spread some abilities out more.

I had thought about that but then it really comes in to question how many levels in does it stop being front loaded? I have a feeling that anybody investing 6 levels into this class is another melee type, not a caster and I can't say that bothers me too much. A cleric investing 6 levels into this class would be something that I think would be fun to see but I'm not really seeing it as problematic.

On the other hand, as I said before I'm really hoping for feedback on best placement of abilities and I'll gladly adjust the class if everyone agrees that it's better a different way.


Lastly, as written some progressions don't "increase" per X levels, just have static increases at levels A, B, and C. Not 100% certain how this interacts with epic level progression, but to avoid confusion perhaps write them as increasing by Y every X levels. For example: Blindsense: At 5th level the fighter gains blindsense out to 15 ft. This range increases by 15 ft. every 4 levels (9, 13, et cetra) (if you wanted it capped) to a max of Z

That's something I often forget to to in homebrew because my group rarely plays past 20. I'll add that in when I go in for an edit next but in case there is any question: Yes, I want all abilities to continue expanding and growing past 20. I guess other than veteran's sight unless someone can come up with a way to add to it.