Ultimate Magic Killer

[Gamereaper]

Ok, so I thought of an awesome anti magic build. It's basic, but effective.

Fighter 05
Arcanopath Monk 03
Occult Slayer 02
Arcanopath Monk 07
Occult Slayer 03

Is this a fairly decent build, anything to improve on?

I was thinking something like Orc or some other combat race.

[BowStreetRunner]

Arcanopath Monk requires 8 ranks in Knowledge (arcana). By 5th level a fighter can have at maximum 4 ranks as cross-class. Reversing the order you take Occult Slayer and Arcanopath Monk might alleviate this problem.

[Zaydos]

Why fighter 5? Wouldn't Fighter 4/Barbarian 1 at least be better? Or a dip into duskblade at Lv 1 to get Knowledge (Arcana) as a class skill? Or a 2 level dip in monk (Monk 2/Fighter 3), loses you 1 BAB, gets you Knowledge (arcana) and saves you at least 1 feat while giving you +2 Fort, +3 Will, and +3 Ref over Fighter 5.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Replace one of the Fighter levels with a single level of Hexblade or Duskblade. That gets you some necessary class skills, and you don't lose anything from replacing that fifth Fighter level.

[Karnith]

Some thoughts:

See if you can fit a level of Ranger in there somewhere (preferably in place of Fighter 5, which is not a level you ever want to take), so that you can get the Arcane Hunter ACF (Complete Mage, p. 32). Combine with the Nemesis feat (BoED, p. 44) to be able to pinpoint the location of all arcane casters within 60 ft, even through barriers (such as walls or doors). This is handy.

The build is fairly tight on feats; you've got to blow six feats (most of them bad) just to meet your PrC requirements. If you're looking to get some of the other standard anti-spellcaster feats (e.g. Mage Slayer and Pierce Magical Concealment, the latter of which also requires Blind-Fight), you're using even more.

Arcanopath Monk 10 doesn't offer you much, class-feature-wise. Sundering Strike of Oblivion is cool and all, but it's not actually going to make much of a difference. It only really has an impact after the fight, and if a caster walks away from a fight with you, it's probably going to be because you're dead.
Pretend I made a partially-charged wand joke
Much like most mundane characters, the build is hurting for a lot of effects necessary to deal with caster craziness, particularly when it comes to mobility. Refer to this list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851) for the basic gist of what you'll need (at least you're covered for immunity to mind-affecting and see invisibility!). If you plan on playing this build before high levels, this will be a serious problem, since you probably won't be able to afford everything.

[Thurbane]

You might want to see if you can squeeze Witch Slayer 5 (ToM) in there. Momentary Disjunction is a great ability.

Also, surprised you haven't had the stock standard "only a full caster can be a caster killer" reply yet. Refreshing. :smallsmile:

[Gamereaper]

Arcanopath Monk requires 8 ranks in Knowledge (arcana). By 5th level a fighter can have at maximum 4 ranks as cross-class. Reversing the order you take Occult Slayer and Arcanopath Monk might alleviate this problem.

I'll be honest, I completely forgot that. Thanks.


Why fighter 5? Wouldn't Fighter 4/Barbarian 1 at least be better? Or a dip into duskblade at Lv 1 to get Knowledge (Arcana) as a class skill? Or a 2 level dip in monk (Monk 2/Fighter 3), loses you 1 BAB, gets you Knowledge (arcana) and saves you at least 1 feat while giving you +2 Fort, +3 Will, and +3 Ref over Fighter 5.

I was focusing on pumping BAB and bonus feats ASAP.

When I read your post, I was honestly worried about multiclass penalties.


Replace one of the Fighter levels with a single level of Hexblade or Duskblade. That gets you some necessary class skills, and you don't lose anything from replacing that fifth Fighter level.

Not a bad idea if I have no penalties to XP.


Some thoughts:

See if you can fit a level of Ranger in there somewhere (preferably in place of Fighter 5, which is not a level you ever want to take), so that you can get the Arcane Hunter ACF (Complete Mage, p. 32). Combine with the Nemesis feat (BoED, p. 44) to be able to pinpoint the location of all arcane casters within 60 ft, even through barriers (such as walls or doors). This is handy.

The build is fairly tight on feats; you've got to blow six feats (most of them bad) just to meet your PrC requirements. If you're looking to get some of the other standard anti-spellcaster feats (e.g. Mage Slayer and Pierce Magical Concealment, the latter of which also requires Blind-Fight), you're using even more.

Arcanopath Monk 10 doesn't offer you much, class-feature-wise. Sundering Strike of Oblivion is cool and all, but it's not actually going to make much of a difference. It only really has an impact after the fight, and if a caster walks away from a fight with you, it's probably going to be because you're dead.
Pretend I made a partially-charged wand joke
Much like most mundane characters, the build is hurting for a lot of effects necessary to deal with caster craziness, particularly when it comes to mobility. Refer to this list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851) for the basic gist of what you'll need (at least you're covered for immunity to mind-affecting and see invisibility!). If you plan on playing this build before high levels, this will be a serious problem, since you probably won't be able to afford everything.

If I don't have to worry about XP penalties, favored enemy would be by far the best option.
As for the feats, I get most of them from my dump class I don't care about.

I was reading the Arcanopath Monk and it sounds sweet, it's an Anti-mage monk.

Iffy on the Nemesis thing, but maybe if I have nothing else to do.


You might want to see if you can squeeze Witch Slayer 5 (ToM) in there. Momentary Disjunction is a great ability.

Also, surprised you haven't had the stock standard "only a full caster can be a caster killer" reply yet. Refreshing. :smallsmile:

Once I am able to look it up, I certainly will.

I was thinking of getting an everwand with Anti-Magic field if it was possible too.

[Story]

You left out the part where you hire NPCs to True Mind Switch yourself into an epic level monster.

But really, if you want to do battle with casters, you need to become one yourself. Oh and you'll definitely need to be Vecna Blooded.

[12owlbears]

I would suggest acquiring iron heart surge if you can get it. If you use it responsibly the DM won't through the book at you and its a good thing to have if the mage throws something your not protected from(which probably will happen eventually). Admittedly it only works on things that affect you for more than one round so it can't solve everything, many DM's don't allow ToB, you might not have room for it in your build, and it only works once per encounter but still if you can make room for it I would suggest it.

[gorfnab]

Here is a Mage Slayer build I came up with a while ago.

1. Ranger - B: Track, Weapon Focus: Guisarme, Arcane Hunter ACF
2. Barbarian - Spirit Totem: Lion ACF, Whirling Frenzy ACF, {Optional: City Brawler ACF (Drg#349)}
3. Barbarian - Nemisis: Arcanists, Wolf Totem ACF
4. Warblade
5. Warblade
6. Warblade - Mage Slayer
7. Warblade
8. Warblade - B: Improved Initiative
9. Crusader - Blindfight
10. Crusader
11. Occult Slayer
12. Occult Slayer - Combat Reflexes
13. Occult Slayer
14. Occult Slayer
15. Occult Slayer - Pierce Magical Concealment
16. Witch Slayer
17. Witch Slayer
18. Witch Slayer - Stand Still
19. Witch Slayer
20. Witch Slayer

Note: The levels of Occult Slayer and Witch Slayer can be switched around as needed.

Warblade nets you the maneuvers Iron Heart Surge, Moment of Perfect Mind, and Action Before Thought. You also get Uncanny Dodge

Crusader nets you the Thicket of Blade Stance (combos nicely with Stand Still, Combat Reflexes, and a reach weapon; wear spiked gauntlets or armor spikes to threaten nearby squares) and some healing maneuvers. it also nets you Indomitable Soul.

Witch Slayer nets you Mettle and Slippery Mind.

If playing human take EWP: Spiked Chain and WF: Spiked Chain instead of Guisarme.
Another option would be to look into importing the Witch Hunter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/witch-hunter) class from Pathfinder.

[Crake]

I was thinking of getting an everwand with Anti-Magic field if it was possible too.

Not sure how many of your abilities are Su with all your stuff there, but it'd be worth noting that none of them would work in an anti-magic field. Plus doing so would kill all your magic items, and an enemy caster could still sit outside the field, possibly with magical flight so you could never bring the field to them, and just shoot orbs at you, since, as instantaneous conjurations, they can be fired into an AMF with no trouble.

[Story]

Yeah, self AMFs are generally a bad idea unless you have some way to cheese it like the Twice Betrayer.

[Gamereaper]

You left out the part where you hire NPCs to True Mind Switch yourself into an epic level monster.

But really, if you want to do battle with casters, you need to become one yourself. Oh and you'll definitely need to be Vecna Blooded.

I want to avoid being squishy and reliance on spells. Being an empty handed fighter is good because I don't need anything to still do what I do. No components, no book, no holy symbol. Spontaneous casters are nice, but they have limited ammo and need sleep.

[Story]

Being an empty handed fighter is good because I don't need anything to still do what I do.

If you are incapable of doing anything, then you are equally effective in any circumstance.

Sounds like one of those parody motivational sayings.


Incidentally, I just found my old character sheet for a 12th level Anima Mage I played last year if you want to try an arena battle. To avoid accusations of Schroidinger's Wizard, using an existing character from an actual game* that wasn't built with this in mind at all should be interesting.

Obviously the exact starting conditions of the fight are important, but as your build stands, I don't think you would stand a chance despite being 8 levels higher and despite devoting your entire build to fighting mages.

* Admittedly a high op game, though still nowhere near Tippy standards

[QuackParker]

I like it quite a bit. Its refreshing to see a non-rogue answer to countering the caster. Good build!

[herrhauptmann]

What's the source for Arcanopath?

Favored enemy Arcanist is a great class feature if you've got Nemesis. With Nemesis, you automatically know their location, and this works through walls too. Even walls that would normally block certain divinations (inch of lead, foot of stone, etc)

[Karnith]

Not sure how many of your abilities are Su with all your stuff there,
A whole lot of them. The character will retain monk abilities (AC bonus, unarmored speed, Flurry of Blows, and unarmed strike damage), Slap of Forgetfulness (which is not that good), and Empty Hand (which allows attacks against ethereal creatures) from Arcanopath Monk, and will lose everything else. Importantly, this means his main defense against Orbs and rays, the Deflect Spell ability, goes away, as does the constant See Invisibility effect. AMF also shuts off the Weapon Bond (which is useless), Mind over Magic (which is fairly useful, albeit adequately covered by having an AMF up), Auravision (which isn't very useful), and Nondetection Cloak (which is useless) abilities from Occult Slayer, but those aren't as important.

Also, thirding AMFs as a bad idea beyond pretty low op-levels. AMFs are too small and turn off too many of your own abilities and too much of your gear. AMFs also aren't that hard to deal with at high levels, between Invoke Magic/Initiate of Mystra, minions, instantaneous Conjurations, and even the old tinfoil hat trick.

What's the source for Arcanopath?
Arcanopath Monk is in Dragon Compendium.

[Psyren]

Another option would be to look into importing the Witch Hunter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/witch-hunter) class from Pathfinder.

SGG's stuff is really solid. Thanks for linking this, I'll have to take a deeper dive.

[Gamereaper]

I thinking of replacing Occult Hunter with Witch Slayer. Also, my 3rd or 5th level will be Ranger while the other 4 are Fighter. What do you guys think?

So, I'm thinking human with 2 flaws, Shaky and Murky Eyed
(Won't need to worry about concealment with the Mage Slayer Feats)

So feats will be as follows most likely:
Dodge (Human)
Improved Unarmed Strike (Human)
Mage Slayer (Flaw)
Blind Fight (Flaw)
Mobility (Fighter Bonus Feat Level 01)
Deflect Arrows (Fighter Bonus Feat Level 02)
Pierce Magical Protection (Chosen 03)
Pierce Magical Protection (Chosen 06)

Anything I can add to it so far? Lots of wiggle room.

I was thinking after I got everything I need to make casters fear me, I want to focus on anti-rogue or anti-fighter. Any suggestions on that?

I'm think of maybe an everwand of dimension door too.

Anti-magic field might suck since most of my anti-magic defenses are supernatural, but since casters are unlikely to be good at one on one combat and magical aid would be mostly negated by the anti-magic field. Might be nice as a last ditch effort unless there is some way to make a supernatural ability be unaffected by it.

[Story]

I was thinking after I got everything I need to make casters fear me, I want to focus on anti-rogue or anti-fighter. Any suggestions on that?


Currently, you don't really have anything to make casters fear you. Mundane anti-caster is just not something you can do in 3.5ed.

[Heliomance]

If you are incapable of doing anything, then you are equally effective in any circumstance.

Sounds like one of those parody motivational sayings.


Incidentally, I just found my old character sheet for a 12th level Anima Mage I played last year if you want to try an arena battle. To avoid accusations of Schroidinger's Wizard, using an existing character from an actual game* that wasn't built with this in mind at all should be interesting.

Obviously the exact starting conditions of the fight are important, but as your build stands, I don't think you would stand a chance despite being 8 levels higher and despite devoting your entire build to fighting mages.

* Admittedly a high op game, though still nowhere near Tippy standards

I'd be quite interested in that actually. I have a level 12 build I made for a PbP arena that fell apart, that I hope might be an effective caster killer. Uses some 3.0 and DMag content though.

[Gamereaper]

Currently, you don't really have anything to make casters fear you. Mundane anti-caster is just not something you can do in 3.5ed.

The Arcanopath Monk isn't anti-caster? It's got all sorts of anti-caster techniques.
Witch Slayer is pretty good against casters.

When I get close, casters are screwed.

[Story]

I'd be quite interested in that actually. I have a level 12 build I made for a PbP arena that fell apart, that I hope might be an effective caster killer. Uses some 3.0 and DMag content though.

I'd be curious to see how this goes too. How do you set up these battles? I guess there are some rules we'd need to clarify first too.


The Arcanopath Monk isn't anti-caster? It's got all sorts of anti-caster techniques.

When I get close, casters are screwed.

Literally all of the Arcanopath's abilities are blocked by immunity to critical hits, which you have no ways of negating (Heart of X, Fortification, type based immunities, etc). I'm not sure why you'd even bother with the class.

But you're putting the cart before the horse anyway. Adding extra effects to an attack won't help you if you don't have a way of making those attacks in the first place.

[Karnith]

Literally all of the Arcanopath's abilities are blocked by immunity to critical hits, which you have no ways of negating (Heart of X, Fortification, type based immunities, etc). I'm not sure why you'd even bother with the class.
The special attacks are pretty worthless, but its passive abilities are at least okay. Deflect Spell and Reflect Spell certainly stand out (though the once/round restriction limits its usefulness at higher op-levels). The Supernatural See Invisibility is also nice, if unspectacular.

[icefractal]

I think when people are saying "you can't make a non-casting mage slayer", they're talking about a character who could single-handedly hunt down and defeat a given mage who knows they're in danger.

However, in 90%+ of campaigns, that's not what "anti-mage character" means. It means someone who operates as part of a party, like normal, and mostly encounters enemies who weren't forewarned about them ahead of time, like normal. And the title just means that when the party does run into a mage, everybody looks to that character, because he's the best at that.

Seriously, look at the tactics of caster enemies on just about any adventure path / module / whatever. We're not talking about Tippy-Wizards here, and it is entirely possible to defeat them without being a caster yourself. Especially when you have the rest of a party backing you up.

[137beth]

The Arcanopath Monk isn't anti-caster? It's got all sorts of anti-caster techniques.
Witch Slayer is pretty good against casters.

When I get close, casters are screwed.
Bolded the relevant part. Unless the caster in question is a gish, it will be very difficult for you to get close, ever, with what you have.

[3WhiteFox3]

Bolded the relevant part. Unless the caster in question is a gish, it will be very difficult for you to get close, ever, with what you have.

Honestly, I'd just fix it...

If you get close. After all, you could get close, but most smart wizards know that adjacent enemies are bad news.

[Mithril Leaf]

Or a wizard could just do some classic Draconic Polymorph into a Firbolg and Bite of the Werebear for 60 strength.

[Thanatosia]

Looking over the Arcanopath's abilities, the thing that realy strikes out at me is that most of them are innefective if the target is immune to critical hits. That's a big big problem, since most casters A) Have ways of getting immmunity to critical hits, and B) Have low hp pools that give them pretty high incentive to do so (the fact that a rogue coming out of hiding with a big sneak attack is one of the more effective and common ways to try to slay a caster gives all casters another big incentive to seek out some method of crit immunity/protection).

[Zetapup]

So feats will be as follows most likely:
Dodge (Human)
Improved Unarmed Strike (Human)
Mage Slayer (Flaw)
Blind Fight (Flaw)
Mobility (Fighter Bonus Feat Level 01)
Deflect Arrows (Fighter Bonus Feat Level 02)
Pierce Magical Protection (Chosen 03)
Pierce Magical Protection (Chosen 06)

I'm pretty sure Mage Slayer requires +3 BA, so you can't take it as a flaw since you need a base attack of at least +3.

[Gamereaper]

I'm pretty sure Mage Slayer requires +3 BA, so you can't take it as a flaw since you need a base attack of at least +3.

Damn, I didn't see that. I guess I'll have to change a couple things.