One hit(roll) kills, opinions?

[jjcrpntr]

Hey guys,

So I'm a semi new player to dnd 3.5 and I was curious about peoples thoughts on on roll=dead. If it's an ability, spell, attack or whatever. I personally think that in a game where you may play months or years on one character and get invested in it, to have one bad roll and "oops, your dead" just seems like crap. I know it's in the rules but it's a rule I dislike. Do you guys do this to your players often or is this just a dm's way of saying "I want that PC to die now".

[ryu]

Hey guys,

So I'm a semi new player to dnd 3.5 and I was curious about peoples thoughts on on roll=dead. If it's an ability, spell, attack or whatever. I personally think that in a game where you may play months or years on one character and get invested in it, to have one bad roll and "oops, your dead" just seems like crap. I know it's in the rules but it's a rule I dislike. Do you guys do this to your players often or is this just a dm's way of saying "I want that PC to die now".

By the time where you've spent months or even years building up a character and their resources death is cheap. How cheap? by around that time I have backup plans involving the favor economy of various gods set to bring back from beyond if my character's soul was obliterated. Do you have any idea how early lesser forms of death that involve the soul still existing can be obviated?

[MonochromeTiger]

Hey guys,

So I'm a semi new player to dnd 3.5 and I was curious about peoples thoughts on on roll=dead. If it's an ability, spell, attack or whatever. I personally think that in a game where you may play months or years on one character and get invested in it, to have one bad roll and "oops, your dead" just seems like crap. I know it's in the rules but it's a rule I dislike. Do you guys do this to your players often or is this just a dm's way of saying "I want that PC to die now".

in most cases it does indeed happen often, if you look around enough you may see the term "save or die" used, and it wouldn't be a term if it didn't happen quite a bit.

some DMs try to avoid throwing that at their players or maybe giving them a story hook to undo the inevitable bad roll against a spell or ability like that but over all it's a mechanic of the game and unless your DM actively says the campaign is going to be low risk you should probably expect it at some point.

[jjcrpntr]

By the time where you've spent months or even years building up a character and their resources death is cheap. How cheap? by around that time I have backup plans involving the favor economy of various gods set to bring back from beyond if my character's soul was obliterated. Do you have any idea how early lesser forms of death that involve the soul still existing can be obviated?

no apparently I don't. I just figured if you died you died and could be brought back but you permanently lost a level.

And yes I understand it's in the rules. I'm not angry at my DM for it,it's an ability the creature has. I just think it's a crappy ability. I guess I just think it's crap that you can have a guy that is powerful but not over powered, and 1 guy with invisibility can walk up and with one bad fort save kill a player. For that matter I think those skills shouldn't be useable by players either. I guess I just don't see the fun in 1 roll = death.

Probably why I suck at FPS video games and just end up being sniper fodder.

[ryu]

no apparently I don't. I just figured if you died you died and could be brought back but you permanently lost a level.

And yes I understand it's in the rules. I'm not angry at my DM for it,it's an ability the creature has. I just think it's a crappy ability. I guess I just think it's crap that you can have a guy that is powerful but not over powered, and 1 guy with invisibility can walk up and with one bad fort save kill a player. For that matter I think those skills shouldn't be useable by players either. I guess I just don't see the fun in 1 roll = death.

Probably why I suck at FPS video games and just end up being sniper fodder.

See invisibility item/true seeing item. This is a game made out of counters.

[Taelas]

no apparently I don't. I just figured if you died you died and could be brought back but you permanently lost a level.

And yes I understand it's in the rules. I'm not angry at my DM for it,it's an ability the creature has. I just think it's a crappy ability. I guess I just think it's crap that you can have a guy that is powerful but not over powered, and 1 guy with invisibility can walk up and with one bad fort save kill a player. For that matter I think those skills shouldn't be useable by players either. I guess I just don't see the fun in 1 roll = death.

Probably why I suck at FPS video games and just end up being sniper fodder.

I suggest you shouldn't play games with combat if you dislike it so vehemently.

It's always going to be 1 roll = death. Even if you've taken a hundred attacks to the face before dying to the hundred and first, it was the last one that did the trick. Sure, you could have healed up before it landed... but so you could have avoided landing in the situation with the invisible attacker, with something like a permanent see invisibility item.

[MonochromeTiger]

no apparently I don't. I just figured if you died you died and could be brought back but you permanently lost a level.

And yes I understand it's in the rules. I'm not angry at my DM for it,it's an ability the creature has. I just think it's a crappy ability. I guess I just think it's crap that you can have a guy that is powerful but not over powered, and 1 guy with invisibility can walk up and with one bad fort save kill a player. For that matter I think those skills shouldn't be useable by players either. I guess I just don't see the fun in 1 roll = death.

Probably why I suck at FPS video games and just end up being sniper fodder.

the odd thing about not thinking something is possible on this forum is that briefly after you say it's impossible there will be at least 10 optimizers showing you a step by step process of their own individual way of making it work. so if you really look into the rules and find the various loopholes and tricks you can achieve just about anything..and by that I mean tippy will achieve it then tell you how.

on the fairness and fun of it..really it's kind of debatable, arguably it's fair since the players are capable of building and playing something that can do the same thing, heck they're fully capable of building things that make it nearly impossible for enemies to do anything like that to them.

from a fun perspective different players (and DMs) view different things as fun and while it's always nice seeing a player get a bit invested in a character it's fairly common to see campaigns where death is commonplace. this is even more true with railroading DMs or ones that "accidentally" (ignore quotation marks if they really did do it on accident) misread an ability and put a worse result in out of confusion.


edit: ooh THERE'S the lack of sympathy for a new player, I was wondering when those posts would start up..

[jjcrpntr]

I suggest you shouldn't play games with combat if you dislike it so vehemently.

It's always going to be 1 roll = death. Even if you've taken a hundred attacks to the face before dying to the hundred and first, it was the last one that did the trick. Sure, you could have healed up before it landed... but so you could have avoided landing in the situation with the invisible attacker, with something like a permanent see invisibility item.

I have no problem with combat, I wouldn't even mind dying honestly. My cleric stood on a ledge facing a dragon when he only had 5hp left because he refused to run and leave his friends to die. If our barbarian hadn't gotten a big hit we would have likely all died a glorious death. I'm talking about full health engaged in a great fight, we're completely out numbered and then I hear "fort save " i roll "your dead! an assassin that was invisible just popped up and killed you." That's not fun, and it's not "the last hit" after string of hits.

Besides, I'm not complaining I'm asking if it's a commonplace thing and for ways to possibly survive these things (besides having better saves) Someone mentioned the true seeing that would help thanks.

[ryu]

I have no problem with combat, I wouldn't even mind dying honestly. My cleric stood on a ledge facing a dragon when he only had 5hp left because he refused to run and leave his friends to die. If our barbarian hadn't gotten a big hit we would have likely all died a glorious death. I'm talking about full health engaged in a great fight, we're completely out numbered and then I hear "fort save " i roll "your dead! an assassin that was invisible just popped up and killed you." That's not fun, and it's not "the last hit" after string of hits.

Besides, I'm not complaining I'm asking if it's a commonplace thing and for ways to possibly survive these things (besides having better saves) Someone mentioned the true seeing that would help thanks.

Oh so you just want a list of counters? Have you googled the list of necessary magic items?

[Taelas]

The situation is frustrating because your DM played it out to be. Using an invisible assassin right out of the gate seems extremely harsh, in my opinion. It's easy for the DM to create unfair situations for the players -- before using invisible assassins, the DM should make invisible ambushes a thing first and foremost, so you have had time to prepare against such an eventuality.

But there's nothing wrong with the combat system or with one-hit kills -- provided they are telegraphed properly to give the player a chance to respond.

[jjcrpntr]

Oh so you just want a list of counters? Have you googled the list of necessary magic items?

counters and opinions. I'm a little frustrated that my cleric died in a way that I felt was crappy. But again, i understand it's within the rules so not mad at the DM, just frustrated because of how it went down.

And no I hadn't seen that list thank you.

[jjcrpntr]

Side note, looking at that list. I want to make sure Im understanding this right. Death Ward armor enhancement. Would that have saved me from the assassins death strike ability? If so then thank you very much for pointing out that list. I just hope the DM doesn't ban MIC like he just said he wants to.

[ryu]

counters and opinions. I'm a little frustrated that my cleric died in a way that I felt was crappy. But again, i understand it's within the rules so not mad at the DM, just frustrated because of how it went down.

And no I hadn't seen that list thank you.

Another thing to consider is the possibility of becoming undead. This makes your con score not a thing that exists or is relevant, grants you immunity to most things that would trigger fort saves, but not all of them, increases your hitdie to a d12 and makes it so you don't care about aging.

If he bans the book just get access to the spell and some crafting feats. Alternatively just persist the spell regularly.

[TuggyNE]

Side note, looking at that list. I want to make sure Im understanding this right. Death Ward armor enhancement. Would that have saved me from the assassins death strike ability?

Yes. It's a death attack, and is thus blocked by effects that make you immune to them.

[jjcrpntr]

He mentioned me turning into a ghost if I wanted to.

I'm not sure if he'll ban MIC we've been playing for a few months and using it a lot several of the other players characters all have items/enhancements from it. So it would suck to get rid of it now.

Thanks for pointing out that list though going to be doing some shopping I think.

[The Insanity]

You don't want your PC to die, you better be careful. If he died from one roll it's because you let him. Prepare and don't be foolish.
Is how I run my games at least, of course. Then again I also ban any "bring to life" spells and effects. Don't like an afterlife in my games to have revolving door.

[ryu]

He mentioned me turning into a ghost if I wanted to.

I'm not sure if he'll ban MIC we've been playing for a few months and using it a lot several of the other players characters all have items/enhancements from it. So it would suck to get rid of it now.

Thanks for pointing out that list though going to be doing some shopping I think.

Ghost has a nasty LA attached to it. I'd recommend necropolitan if you can get it. If not just settle for items to get most of those immunities and defenses. LA hurts real bad.

[Deophaun]

It should never be one roll. There's usually also a Search check, a Spot check, a Listen check, and/or a Knowledge check that you have to fail.

[weckar]

The LA would slow down his exp progression quite badly, depending on their current level.

[Silentone98]

Just to answer the original poster:

I also find save or die effects- death by massive damage, and other things to be a huge disappointment from a players perspective.

at the same time, these things in the players hands give them a huge boost in confidence and interest in the game. And other times they turn their noses up at it and avoid it.

As a DM, I avoid these things for the most part.... up to when they decide to engage in 1 roll= death themselves.... by that time they are usually ready and have safeguards in place.
If they want to continue to pretend 1 roll=death options don't exist, I continue to ignore it myself. (And given the saves on such effects, they do tend to get ignored by the parties I been with so far)

I feel this is the only fair, and polite way to play without stepping on players like yourself and ruining said fun.
In my experience so far, there is no shortage of people that feel as you do.

[ryu]

The LA would slow down his exp progression quite badly, depending on their current level.

Which is why I said don't do it. LA hurts like a mother.