DM using dead player characters

[Church of Gob]

First time poster, I'm kinda frustrated at my DM. During an earlier session one of my PCs(evil) died. What I'm frustrated is that my DM has brought him back twice. When he did it was as an enemy, and I am forced to kill him, or as a deus ex machina. In each opportunity, I am unable to do any cool role playing, and I feel that my DM is rubbing in the fact that one of my favorite characters was murdered. I want to have a talk with him about it, but I dont really know how. Do you guys have any advice?

[Zanos]

When a person stops actually playing a character they become NPCs that are still in the world, but a DM shouldn't resurrect a character after murdering them just to use as a plot point. It's usually pretty meaningless to put them in as a hook though, as the person who originally created the character probably can't interact with them in any meaningful IC way.

It is possible that your DM likes having cameos or including past characters in the plot, and if you're not comfortable with what he's doing with your character, you should be pretty up front about that.

It's really rude to use someone's character if they aren't okay with it, in my opinion.

[Talakeal]

I could go either way on this, it really depends on how it is handled.

If I can give an anecdote:

My longest running PC was in a game of Mage: The Ascension. I played the character for many years, and over time her grasp on sanity and morality slowly slipped away. By the time the campaign ended the character was an Archmage who had the opportunity to avert the Apocalypse but who decided to just say eff it and let the world burn.

Several years later we were playing a different campaign, one using an entirely different rules system, setting, and even genre. When the DM reveals the BBEG of the campaign it turns out to be none other than my PC from the mage campaign. She managed to survive the Apocalypse and now travels from universe to universe searching for one in which she can finally be happy, and leading the rest towards their destruction.

I thought this was awesome, and a great way continue a the story of a character that really wouldn't work as a PC anymore. We have yet to finish the campaign, so I don't know how it will work out in the end, but I imagine it is going to be pretty cool.

[weckar]

While I agree that it can work, you very quickly run into situations of "My/The Character Wouldn't Do that!"

And they'd probably be validated in saying so, and be right.

[Brookshw]

I feel like the dm should have talked to you a bit first. While it can be okay to use an ex-pc at times, they should still respect that its your character and your voice in the world. Go ahead and talk to them.

Now, that said if you'd been killed by undead and animated etc it seems easier to accept.

[theIrkin]

I would never co-opt someone else's character as DM or as a player. If I thought a previous (dead or just abandoned) PC would be a good NPC, I would only use them with the player's permission and with them doing all the roleplaying and giving that player a lose script to play with and improvise upon. A DM playing another player's character is rude to the point that I would immediately confront them, asking them to explain themselves and telling them why I was not okay with it. If the DM did not understand why I wasn't okay with that and insisted on continuing, I would quit the game. I have strong feelings on this, but I believe that a DM using the character constructed by a player as a gross breach of the implicit contract DM's and players engage in which is essential to a good game.

[Sith_Happens]

a different campaign

This is the key distinction that made appropriating your character work. You were legitimately finished with that character, and it was in an entirely different campaign that you found yourself on the outside of her looking in.

The OP had a character die, then get resurrected and NPC'ed later in the same campaign. If it was me in that situation, the first thing I'd be asking is "If my character got a rez, then how come I'm not playing him again?"

[Talakeal]

This is the key distinction that made appropriating your character work. You were legitimately finished with that character, and it was in an entirely different campaign that you found yourself on the outside of her looking in.

The OP had a character die, then get resurrected and NPC'ed later in the same campaign. If it was me in that situation, the first thing I'd be asking is "If my character got a rez, then how come I'm not playing him again?"

Oh, resurrected. I thought the character was brought back as some sort of undead creature. Yeah, that is a trickier situation. Still, it depends on how it is handled.

[Kudaku]

Could you be a little bit more specific when you say "brought him back"? Raise Dead, Resurrection etc requires consent from the character (and by extension, the PC player), whereas Animate Dead (or a similar spell) does not.

[Vanitas]

This is the key distinction that made appropriating your character work. You were legitimately finished with that character, and it was in an entirely different campaign that you found yourself on the outside of her looking in.

The OP had a character die, then get resurrected and NPC'ed later in the same campaign. If it was me in that situation, the first thing I'd be asking is "If my character got a rez, then how come I'm not playing him again?"

Why didn't the OP get a rez in the first place, that's what I want to know. I'm guessing he wanted to try a new character.

[MrNobody]

First thing, apply rule 0: talk to your DM. If you don't like what he is doing, you are not having fun and feel not respected, talk to him and try to find out what is going wrong and fix it together.

That said, bringing back dead/abandoned PCs is something that requires the DM a little of forethought and a deep knowledge of the PC. Also, there is a polite way to do this, and an unpolite way.

In the polite way, the DM asks the player if he wants his PC to come back or, if he doesn't want to ask for a "surprise effect", the DM doesn't stress the plot to make this happen. If the party is wiped out while battling a lich king, the return of the members of the party as undead minions is to be expected. It may be unpleasant but it fits the story. Also, if deities are heavily involved in the plot, a PC resurrected in force of an "afterlife deal" with a god shouldn't be a big deal, as long as it respects the PCs concept.

Then there is the unpolite way, that happens when DM do things just because he thinks that are cool but that are totally unrelated to the plot. Things like:
- The PC was so mad at dying that he became a ghost and he's now haunting the group because he is jealous of the new member.
- After the group buried the corpse of the PC, a passing by cleric of Pelor decided that he should have lived and resurrected him from his grave, eventually converting him to his faith.
- The CE PC paladin of Erythnul leaves the group, adventuring solo (in the idea of the player). The group meet him some time later as a LG high priest of Heironeus because he "saw the light" after leaving the group.
- The heroic warrior of the group decide to join the guards of a city to help in the incoming war, and leaves. When the group returns to that city, they find out that the knight left the guards to become a baker...

Per se, bringing back as an NPC a dead/abandoned PC is not bad: it's HOW the DM plays the return that matters.

[nyjastul69]

The DM was playing too fast and loose if resurrection or similar magic was used. The soul needs to be willing to return and this really should have been the players decision, even if he was playing a different character at the time.
If the former character was somehow turned into an undead creature then I think it's an entirely different story and probably okay.

[Vanitas]

The DM was playing too fast and loose if resurrection or similar magic was used. The soul needs to be willing to return and this really should have been the players decision, even if he was playing a different character at the time.
If the former character was somehow turned into an undead creature then I think it's an entirely different story and probably okay.

I emphatically disagree. If you give up playing your character, well, then it's not your character any more, is it?

[ZamielVanWeber]

The rules are clear: when he picked up a new PC his old one became an NPC. However, DnD is not just a game of rules, so the DM should have consulted the player regardless... Especially since he could have theoretically used him at a later date ahould his current one do some bullet biting.

[nyjastul69]

I emphatically disagree. If you give up playing your character, well, then it's not your character any more, is it?

I think it depends upon the situation. If the character died and the player simply didn't want to be resurrected, then I agree the player gave the character up. If on the other hand there was simply no way to resurrect the character and the player had to play a new character, then I feel he didn't really willing give up the character.

[TriForce]

its your character. the fact that it even needs to be discussed beyond that is silly in my eyes, but anyway:

its your character, you have FULL control over what it does, why it does it, what it thinks, what it says and what it feels.

the fact that he died doesnt suddenly make him anyone else's character.

i have little patience with DM's that try to pull this stuff without asking.
i advice you do the following: tell your DM ( dont ask) that your character is under your control, and if he dislikes that, he can get out. hijacking someone else's character without their permission is pretty rude and imho a sign of a bad DM

[Ravens_cry]

Yeah . . . I can understand this frustration. It's one thing to have a past character brought back as a mindless undead, but to actually bring them back as a thinking character? Rather a jerk move.

[OldTrees1]

A dead PC can become an NPC if the player is ok with it and the DM wants to do it.

So in the OP's case the DM made a mistake out of ignorance of the OP's objection to the dead PC becoming and NPC.

However there exist players (example: me) that would be fine with the DM using dead PCs as NPCs (If they kept the NPC in character. Which is the same requirement for all NPCs).

Where should the OP go from here?
Since the DM made a mistake out of lack of information, the first step is to inform the DM of your feelings on the matter. A good DM will listen to your discomfort and try to make a win-win resolution.

[Ravens_cry]

I think a great many, I know I'd be, would be fine with it . . . with permission.

[The Trickster]

The best way to handle this situation is to simply talk to your DM about it, and explain why you don't want him using your old character.

[Yawgmoth]

I emphatically disagree. If you give up playing your character, well, then it's not your character any more, is it? No, it's still my character. Just because I set my fork down doesn't mean you have any right to pick it up and start eating with it. Why is it so hard to just ask permission? "Hey, I want to use your old character as an NPC. Are you okay with this?" is what a mature, mentally stable adult asks in the situation. "I am using your character, if you don't like it then you can suck one" is what a child and/or sociopath says.

It's really easy to avoid being That Guy, and for some reason there's a lot of people compelled to take the road that leads to broken friendships, defunct games, and dislodged kneecaps. IDGI.

[drack]

The best way to handle this situation is to simply talk to your DM about it, and explain why you don't want him using your old character.

this :smallcool: GM may just be looking for an easily recognized character to use, or have liked your character and wants to use it a bit.

[TriForce]

A dead PC can become an NPC if the player is ok with it and the DM wants to do it.

So in the OP's case the DM made a mistake out of ignorance of the OP's objection to the dead PC becoming and NPC.

However there exist players (example: me) that would be fine with the DM using dead PCs as NPCs (If they kept the NPC in character. Which is the same requirement for all NPCs).

Where should the OP go from here?
Since the DM made a mistake out of lack of information, the first step is to inform the DM of your feelings on the matter. A good DM will listen to your discomfort and try to make a win-win resolution.

in the case you are stating, you are correct, and that would indeed be the right way to handle it, however, whati gathered from the OP's post is that the DM did it for no other reason then to say "look at me using your character and annoying you with it" that doesnt sound like lack of information, that sounds like childish pestering

[Hurnn]

The rules are clear: when he picked up a new PC his old one became an NPC. However, DnD is not just a game of rules, so the DM should have consulted the player regardless... Especially since he could have theoretically used him at a later date should his current one do some bullet biting.

Please post a link or page number reference.

[OldTrees1]

in the case you are stating, you are correct, and that would indeed be the right way to handle it, however, whati gathered from the OP's post is that the DM did it for no other reason then to say "look at me using your character and annoying you with it" that doesnt sound like lack of information, that sounds like childish pestering

Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

First eliminate the possibility of ignorance, then if the problem persists, address the possibility of pestering.
(I do fear the DM is being immature, however Hanlon's Razor has been very useful in the past so I stick with it)

[Zweisteine]

Try using this if you discuss the issue with your DM:

If a PC dies, and is later returned to life, they are still a PC. Otherwise, Raise Dead would be silly, and players would obsess over getting their characters to not die even once.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Please post a link or page number reference.

Anyone who isn't a PC is an NPC, when the character stopped being a PC there as only one other option for him.

[Church of Gob]

Thanks for replying everyone, I'll have a talk with my DM about using my dead character as a plot device, and just let him rest in peace, as the evil 13 year old sorcerer probably doesn't deserve

[Raven777]

"If my character got a rez, then how come I'm not playing him again?"

So much this. Characters belong to their players, from personality and motives through eye color down to the teeniest scar. The DM has the entire rest of the world to monkey with.

[SiuiS]

Just tell him you feel bad and this whole situation keeps making it feel worse. It makes a situation of friends sitting down to have fun into a weird contest, and you don't like it. You would like to talk about it.

[The Glyphstone]

No, it's still my character. Just because I set my fork down doesn't mean you have any right to pick it up and start eating with it. Why is it so hard to just ask permission? "Hey, I want to use your old character as an NPC. Are you okay with this?" is what a mature, mentally stable adult asks in the situation. "I am using your character, if you don't like it then you can suck one" is what a child and/or sociopath says.

It's really easy to avoid being That Guy, and for some reason there's a lot of people compelled to take the road that leads to broken friendships, defunct games, and dislodged kneecaps. IDGI.

Not a good analogy. You put down your fork, then went and got a clean fork from the fork drawer and started eating with that one instead. The other fork 'was' yours, but you have a new fork now.

I still personally think doing something like this without permission is somewhat jerkish, but trying to apply copyright law to RPG characters and accusing anyone who disagrees of sociopathy is going a bit too far.

[Tanuki Tales]

Reading through this makes me curious:

What if the corpse of a dead PC is possessed by an outsider or an outsider is transformed into an exact physical duplicate of an old PC? Is this something that jives with those of you who feel that a DM using an old PC is bad form?

[Roog]

Anyone who isn't a PC is an NPC, when the character stopped being a PC there as only one other option for him.

So you don't have an actual rules reference.

[rexx1888]

DM's, as a rule, really should leave PC's alone. As a DM you have your own toys. you have literally all the toys in the universe. The only toys you dont have are the PC's,an if you start playing with them you are probably going to do it differently, at which point, since we are talking about characters here, the PC is no longer the character you were originally intending to play with. Worse yet, there are a bunch of ppl in the room that know that character, and how they would react, so its glaringly obvious that they would/wouldnt do what ever.

keep in mind that this doesnt apply to using the characters body, but with a new thing in it. then it isnt the same character. You can do whatever you want then, because as a rule it wont break verisimilitude. But if you take something ppl know well an try to mash it into a new slot, it just wont work well. it becomes a mess.

an yes, i see a few things above such as "well you shouldnt have left it alone then" or "the dm can do whatever they want" etc and this is all very well an good but it actively works against their own interests. You, as a DM, do not know everything about that character. Even if you read the backstory, and weekly logs, it will not be the same character. It will just be someone else wearing that characters skin. You dont want this. It draws attention to the nature of pnp games, and breaks players immersion. An hell, its unnecessary in every way.

Keep in mind however that things such as "my character wanders into the woods" can result in "your character was murdered an then someone moved into his meatsack and started pretending to be him" is perfectly ok.

p.s on dead PC's. If the player has specifically said "i do not want to come back as this character" then thats it. There is no res. IF a player has moved on, stopped playing it etc, then it is presumed that that is the case and that character should stay dead. Otherwise what you are saying is "i wanted the PC, so i fiated it back to life, but i didnt want you to have it, so i didnt do that when the PC died, because screw you". Once again, this isnt the same as someone else moving into the PC's body because you fiated the original back to life in a way that actively took it away from the player. I suspect this would be the main reason the OP is pissed, even if they havent clicked to it yet. Its a **** move on the DM's part whether they acknowledge it or not.

[Raven777]

Reading through this makes me curious:

What if the corpse of a dead PC is possessed by an outsider or an outsider is transformed into an exact physical duplicate of an old PC? Is this something that jives with those of you who feel that a DM using an old PC is bad form?

I'm OK with non-intelligent undeath and possession being within the DM's purview. It is not the character's mind driving, after all. Mind-Control should be acted by the player, as is usually done during normal game play. Sentient undeath where the soul is still the character's (see Lich, Vampire, Necropolitan) stays under player control.

[Killer Angel]

It's really rude to use someone's character if they aren't okay with it, in my opinion.

There are exceptions.
For example, if you're facing Korgull, the evil necromancer, and you escape leaving behind you one of your companion dead, I would be very surprised if the DM doesn't create an undead with the corpse. Possibly a vampire officier, with its former equipment.

It would be appropriate, and even cool.

[Honest Tiefling]

Reading through this makes me curious:

What if the corpse of a dead PC is possessed by an outsider or an outsider is transformed into an exact physical duplicate of an old PC? Is this something that jives with those of you who feel that a DM using an old PC is bad form?

Well, if the campaign heavily featured demonic possession or undead before, I think the players don't have the right to be confused. However, the DM has the obligation of at least being tasteful with such. If I did such, they would come back as a terrifing enemy to represent the power they had in life, through I could see how that would piss off people and I would be careful or ask permission first.

I have to wonder if the player knew they could have played that character, or if they just got a resurrection from a different source and were never told about it. Either way, I'd suggest not using other's characters, but then again, I am the type that gets annoyed when the DM roleplays my familiar and gets the creature's mannerisms wrong, so take that as you will.

[Zanos]

There are exceptions.
For example, if you're facing Korgull, the evil necromancer, and you escape leaving behind you one of your companion dead, I would be very surprised if the DM doesn't create an undead with the corpse. Possibly a vampire officier, with its former equipment.
Walking versions of a characters corpse aren't the character. Unless they are in your setting. Vampires might be, but it's not usually possible to create a vampire from someone already dead, and if they're sired, it's pretty similar to mental domination magic, where they can't disobey anyway.

[Killer Angel]

Walking versions of a characters corpse aren't the character.

Fair enough. I was thinking to it in a broader way.


Vampires might be, but it's not usually possible to create a vampire from someone already dead, and if they're sired, it's pretty similar to mental domination magic, where they can't disobey anyway.

Then wraith, or spectre. But yeah, definitely not as "free willed antagonist".

[Brookshw]

I still personally think doing something like this without permission is somewhat jerkish, but trying to apply copyright law to RPG characters and accusing anyone who disagrees of sociopathy is going a bit too far.

Well, since you brought it up they are the one who set it in a tangible medium. Also, see Lord Soth.


I'm OK with non-intelligent undeath and possession being within the DM's purview. It is not the character's mind driving, after all. Mind-Control should be acted by the player, as is usually done during normal game play. Sentient undeath where the soul is still the character's (see Lich, Vampire, Necropolitan) stays under player control.

Eh, I'd personally be willing to grant the dm rights to the vamp, but that's personal opinion assuming the master was around. Could lead to some interesting rp though I would probably let the player resume control once the master was defeated.

[3WhiteFox3]

Not a good analogy. You put down your fork, then went and got a clean fork from the fork drawer and started eating with that one instead. The other fork 'was' yours, but you have a new fork now.

I still personally think doing something like this without permission is somewhat jerkish, but trying to apply copyright law to RPG characters and accusing anyone who disagrees of sociopathy is going a bit too far.


My characters are all licensed with a Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivs CC BY-NC-ND Creative Commons license.

[drack]

Then why is your fork in the drawer? If you patent it, keep using it regardless of what grime cakes onto it.

[Dawgmoah]

p.s on dead PC's. If the player has specifically said "i do not want to come back as this character" then thats it. There is no res. IF a player has moved on, stopped playing it etc, then it is presumed that that is the case and that character should stay dead. Otherwise what you are saying is "i wanted the PC, so i fiated it back to life, but i didnt want you to have it, so i didnt do that when the PC died, because screw you". Once again, this isnt the same as someone else moving into the PC's body because you fiated the original back to life in a way that actively took it away from the player. I suspect this would be the main reason the OP is pissed, even if they havent clicked to it yet. Its a **** move on the DM's part whether they acknowledge it or not.

I could understand if the player character was the linchpin of a major plot or adventure hook of bringing him back as a NPC. Usually I will re-use dead player characters for quick NPCs; but will change the name and all to hide the fact.

The one time I can recollect bringing a PC back when the player did not want to he was cool with it as he was ready to move on with another character and the rez'ed PC became an NPC guardian of his home town. Communication is key.