OSTWF Feats?

[KarmicHammer]

Ladies and Gentlegiants,

My wife's character in my friend's 3.5 run is a 9th level Dwarven Fighter named Elsa.

Stats:
Str - 18
Dex - 15
Con - 15
Int - 12
Wis - 10
Cha - 8

Elsa's current equipment is as follows:

Main Hand: Large +1 Shocking Warhammer[2d6 + 1d6 shock]
Off Hand:Large +1 Flaming Warhammer[2d6 + 1d6 fire]
Ranged Option: (homebrew) Dwarven Slag Gun[1d12+3 fire damage]
Armor: Dwarven Plate
Other: Gauntlets of Ogre Power +2, Boots of Springing and Striding, and a Cloak of Shelter

Her current feats are:
Weapon Focus (Warhammer)
Weapon Spec (Warhammer)
TWF
OSTWF
Monkey Grip
Two Weapon Pounce
Eyes in the Back of Your Head

She forgot to get her bonus feat at 8th, and now our party just hit 9th. Basically I need 3 more feats, and I'm not sure where to go really. She only has 15 dex, so doesn't qualify for Improved or Greater TWF. I was thinking Imp Critical, but realistically I'm not sure where to go. No one is minmaxing/gishing/munchkining/whatever else you want to call it in this campaign.

Also, is there a reasonable way for her to increase her dexterity w/o having to spend ability points every 4th level on it?

[Big Fau]

Couple of things:


Oversized TWFing is bad. It's an average of +1 to your damage rolls (using 2 Shortswords VS 2 Longswords as the baseline). In your case it's a average of +3.5, which is barely even noticeable at 9th level (if Monkey Grip actually worked that way).
Monkey Grip is even worse.
Monkey Grip doesn't allow you to wield an oversized weapon in your off-hand.
Two-Weapon Fighting is really bad on a Fighter.
Eyes in the Back of Your Head is a really poor feat.
The entire Weapon Focus line is as bad as Monkey Grip.
Improved TWFing can be obtained via a magic item in the MiC.
No one actually needs Greater TWFing.
Improved Critical isn't worth the feat slot.



No one is minmaxing/gishing/munchkining/whatever else you want to call it in this campaign.


Min-Maxing isn't a bad thing.
Gishing is completely unrelated to your subject, as it's a term used to describe a Spellcasting Warrior.
Munchkining is an insult to some.


I know this sounds really harsh, but them's the facts. Now then, to be on-topic, Power Attack is OK but Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance) will be better if you can get the Prereqs (which you can't until 10th level). An option is to see if the DM will let her "trade out" some of her feats (either as fiat or as per the Retraining rules in PH2) and get Dungeoncrasher in place of her 2nd level and 6th level Fighter bonus feats.

[ArendK]

Dodge might be a good investment; most groups house-rule it to what Pathfinder did anyways and just make it a flat +1 AC.

Monkey Grip (Complete Warrior) is also a RAW necessity for this build; a Large weapon makes it necessary to increase the energy required to wield it by one step (the character is still -4/-4 due to Oversized Two Weapon Fighting counting Monkey Grip, but then it is RAW legal at least).

Girdle of Giant strength and Gloves of Dexterity is another route to go to.
If you really wanted to go crazy and goofy, make sure you have this pairing (as losing the 15 Dex would remove the TWF qualities), but get a Permanent Enlarge Person spell cast; it doesn't cost a whole lot, and kicks damage up to 3d6.

Some other feats to consider-
Iron Will (+2 combined with all the other benefits a dwarf gets isn't too shabby against Will based spells, usually the bane of most fighters).
Brutal Throw (Complete Adventurer)- Definitely useful with this build when you don't have time to whip out the rifle and for whatever reason, charging is either a bad idea or can't be done; definitely entertaining when you get your paws on a dwarven thrower.

Also, maybe look into maybe branching off into Anvil of Thunder fighting style? Admittedly, it'd sap the res of your feats (and then some I reckon) and requires switching the off-hand weapon to an ax). But dazing enemies works wonders for dropping damage received.

[Crake]

TWF, OSTWF, Monkey Grip and Two weapon pounce, ohgod, that's just painful to look at.

So you'd be getting -4 to hit with each hand, and you can attack with both weapons on a charge.

What if you were to instead get a level of barbarian, and pick up ACTUAL pounce (Allowing a proper full attack). Does it need to be dwarf? Because a half giant or goliath could wield large weapons without penalty. Or there's an item which is basically monkey grip minus the penalty. Then finally do you really need oversized two weapon fighting? The benefit is so negligible, and even if you're going for the look, surely two one handed weapons (or rather, two large light weapons) can be done with just one feat, a level of barbarian and either goliath, half giant or the aformentioned item, which i believe is in the magic item compendium, I think strongarm bracer or something?

But yeah, 9 levels of fighter? It looks like you're running out of feats to pick up here, so maybe trade out those unnecessary levels for something better, maybe get some prc levels in there.

[Joe the Rat]

Or there's an item which is basically monkey grip minus the penalty.Strongarm Bracers. You'll probably need to trade the gauntlets for a belt of giant strength to keep the extra STR in play.

[Crake]

Honestly, she just doesn't have enough dex to make two weapon fighting properly feasible. Unless she got a +4 book of dex, which is EXPENSIVE, or put all her levelup points into dex, she'd never really be able to benefit from more than 1 extra offhand attack, and when that extra offhand attack is giving her -4 to hit on all her normal attacks, it starts just being so much better to just skip that attack and get your full attack bonus instead. Hell, with power attack, you could take that -4 and get +8 damage while two handing, plus the extra damage from the 1.5x str instead of 1x. Then if you pick up leap attack, you'd up that to +12. At that point it's starting to look much tastier to just not dual wield.

If she had some kind of precision damage that would apply to all attacks, and had enough dex to benefit from multiple attacks, and also got a barbarian level for proper pounce, allowing her to do a proper full attack on a charge (would combine quite well with scout for their requirement to move 10ft to get their bonus damage) then maybe you'd have a viable route there, although I'd still recommend against going the oversized weapons stuff.

I mean, really it comes down to how much cooler does having bigger hammers make you feel, and is it really worth being so much less effective in combat, vs having not so big (but still big) hammers and being more effective in combat, or even just having 1 hammer, and being even MORE effective.

[OldTrees1]

Step 1: Buy some Gloves of the Balanced Hand (Magic Item Compendium 8000gp)
They grant the TWF feat, unless you already have it in which case they grant ITWF.

Do not get GTWF. It is a trap since the extra attack is at a -12 penalty (-10 from GTWF, -2 from TWF)

I would second the Anvil of Thunder feat (Complete Warrior) suggestion. (Bolded already fulfilled prerequisites)
Prerequisites: Improved Sunder (PH) , Power Attack (PH) , Two-Weapon Fighting (PH) , Weapon Focus (PH) (warhammer or light hammer) , Weapon Focus (PH) (battleaxe, handaxe, or dwarven waraxe) , STR 13
So it will come online next level (Ftr10).

[Jeff the Green]

Dodge might be a good investment; most groups house-rule it to what Pathfinder did anyways and just make it a flat +1 AC.

Monkey Grip (Complete Warrior) is also a RAW necessity for this build; a Large weapon makes it necessary to increase the energy required to wield it by one step (the character is still -4/-4 due to Oversized Two Weapon Fighting counting Monkey Grip, but then it is RAW legal at least).

Girdle of Giant strength and Gloves of Dexterity is another route to go to.
If you really wanted to go crazy and goofy, make sure you have this pairing (as losing the 15 Dex would remove the TWF qualities), but get a Permanent Enlarge Person spell cast; it doesn't cost a whole lot, and kicks damage up to 3d6.

Some other feats to consider-
Iron Will (+2 combined with all the other benefits a dwarf gets isn't too shabby against Will based spells, usually the bane of most fighters).
Brutal Throw (Complete Adventurer)- Definitely useful with this build when you don't have time to whip out the rifle and for whatever reason, charging is either a bad idea or can't be done; definitely entertaining when you get your paws on a dwarven thrower.

Also, maybe look into maybe branching off into Anvil of Thunder fighting style? Admittedly, it'd sap the res of your feats (and then some I reckon) and requires switching the off-hand weapon to an ax). But dazing enemies works wonders for dropping damage received.

Wait, what? None of this is true except the items (and maybe Anvil of Thinder; I've never looked at it). +1 AC is a lousy excuse for a feat. Monkey Grip doesn't work like that. Brutal Throw is good, but needs a dedicated throwing build, which this ain't.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I second dipping Barbarian for Pounce. Take Extra Rage as your 9th level feat, so you can rage for 3 encounters/day-- the extra strength will help make up for the attack penalties.

[Feint's End]

Couple of things:


Oversized TWFing is bad. It's an average of +1 to your damage rolls (using 2 Shortswords VS 2 Longswords as the baseline). In your case it's a average of +3.5, which is barely even noticeable at 9th level (if Monkey Grip actually worked that way).
Monkey Grip is even worse.
Monkey Grip doesn't allow you to wield an oversized weapon in your off-hand.
Two-Weapon Fighting is really bad on a Fighter.
Eyes in the Back of Your Head is a really poor feat.
The entire Weapon Focus line is as bad as Monkey Grip.
Improved TWFing can be obtained via a magic item in the MiC.
No one actually needs Greater TWFing.
Improved Critical isn't worth the feat slot.





Min-Maxing isn't a bad thing.
Gishing is completely unrelated to your subject, as it's a term used to describe a Spellcasting Warrior.
Munchkining is an insult to some.


I know this sounds really harsh, but them's the facts. Now then, to be on-topic, Power Attack is OK but Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance) will be better if you can get the Prereqs (which you can't until 10th level). An option is to see if the DM will let her "trade out" some of her feats (either as fiat or as per the Retraining rules in PH2) and get Dungeoncrasher in place of her 2nd level and 6th level Fighter bonus feats.

I was about to say pretty much the same things before I read Big Fau's Post so I'm just gonna second everything he said. Also gonna expand on some parts.

First of all "minmaxing/gishing/munchkining/whatever else" are not related and it probably isn't the smartest idea to ask for help and insult the people you want to help you in the same post. Because the last part is an insult wether intended or not.
Minmaxing is something we do a lot on these boards but we don't just minmax for power but for concepts as well. Minmaxing has nothing to do with bad RPing (you might want to look up the Stormwind Fallacy if you are one of those people who think so). In fact we try to help people realize the concept of the character they have. You can have the exactly same character fluffwise but mechanicswise it gets trickier. This is where we help you. We make sure your character remains functional while retaining his purpose and his backgroundstory.
Gishing is a type of build and I have no idea where you got the idea it has nothing to do with the other things you listed (not that any of those things are related).
Munchkining is something people here actively despise and you won't find threads about people talking how they broke the campaign or overpowered their fellow groupmembers by ridiculous numbers and other people agreeing with it. In fact you will find that in most discussion where such "munchkins" appear or are the topic of the discussion people will first tell you to look for an solution OOC and if there is none to kick the player or leave the group (depending on how involved the DM and the other players are). Munchkins have no respect or backup on these boards.

If you just want to say people in your group do not care for spending a lot of time looking through boards and building their character you just might want to say your group is low op. Nobody has a problem with that term and you won't be sneezed upon for playing in such groups. In fact as long as your group feels like it works and nobody feels outshined then go ahead and stay that way.

Generally (so I put at least some help in) you might want to tell us where she is going with her Character. Which image she has in her head. Because we probably can help you make the Character stronger and more efficient. Just asking for some feats won't really help because ... to be honest ... the Character is really really weak. A weak class using weak feats must be frustrating to play. If you haven't run into difficulties yet then it's probably due to your DM having lots of weak enemies or a stronger group buffing her up to the clouds.
Some other things: Fighters are not really good for anything except a starting point into PRCs or other classes, Two Weapon Fighting without a bonusdamage mechanic sucks (and is expensive as hell)

So tell us your concept and we can help you make the Character work. Don't insult us if you need our help.

[Artillery]

There are a number of things you have that you could swap with magic items.
Replace Monkey Grip with Strongarm Bracers. You can wield a size large weapon without penalties.

Oversized Two weapon fighting is suboptimal but still better than weapon focus because it gives a +2 to hit compared to without.

For the pounce thing you can either do the barbarian dip. Or have Use Magic Device Trained with Wands of Lion's Charge inside of your Warhammers. Or you could buy a use activated item of Lion's Charge for 12000gp (2nd level spell x CL 3x 2000gp) and have pounce for no feats or class levels, just WBL.

[KarmicHammer]

I was about to say pretty much the same things before I read Big Fau's Post so I'm just gonna second everything he said. Also gonna expand on some parts.

First of all "minmaxing/gishing/munchkining/whatever else" are not related and it probably isn't the smartest idea to ask for help and insult the people you want to help you in the same post. Because the last part is an insult wether intended or not.
Minmaxing is something we do a lot on these boards but we don't just minmax for power but for concepts as well. Minmaxing has nothing to do with bad RPing (you might want to look up the Stormwind Fallacy if you are one of those people who think so). In fact we try to help people realize the concept of the character they have. You can have the exactly same character fluffwise but mechanicswise it gets trickier. This is where we help you. We make sure your character remains functional while retaining his purpose and his backgroundstory.
Gishing is a type of build and I have no idea where you got the idea it has nothing to do with the other things you listed (not that any of those things are related).
Munchkining is something people here actively despise and you won't find threads about people talking how they broke the campaign or overpowered their fellow groupmembers by ridiculous numbers and other people agreeing with it. In fact you will find that in most discussion where such "munchkins" appear or are the topic of the discussion people will first tell you to look for an solution OOC and if there is none to kick the player or leave the group (depending on how involved the DM and the other players are). Munchkins have no respect or backup on these boards.

If you just want to say people in your group do not care for spending a lot of time looking through boards and building their character you just might want to say your group is low op. Nobody has a problem with that term and you won't be sneezed upon for playing in such groups. In fact as long as your group feels like it works and nobody feels outshined then go ahead and stay that way.

Generally (so I put at least some help in) you might want to tell us where she is going with her Character. Which image she has in her head. Because we probably can help you make the Character stronger and more efficient. Just asking for some feats won't really help because ... to be honest ... the Character is really really weak. A weak class using weak feats must be frustrating to play. If you haven't run into difficulties yet then it's probably due to your DM having lots of weak enemies or a stronger group buffing her up to the clouds.
Some other things: Fighters are not really good for anything except a starting point into PRCs or other classes, Two Weapon Fighting without a bonusdamage mechanic sucks (and is expensive as hell)

So tell us your concept and we can help you make the Character work. Don't insult us if you need our help.

Fair enough. To all those I may have offended, I apologize. It was not my intent at all. I said Gish because someone told me that's what it was. Obviously I was misinformed, but ignorance is no excuse, again I'm sorry folks.

Now that I'm familiar, I guess yes I would say that our group is low op. The vision for her character...basically she wants to be a badass dwarf warrior type (Dwarves are a rare race in this campaign) who dual wields huge hammers and basically grinds her enemies to dust. In the world, her character's mother was a legendary dwarven warrior and she wants to live up to that legacy.

I can definitely see dipping barbarian for the rage and pounce, but I'm not entirely familiar with what pounce does...is it essentially the feat two weapon pounce, but without having tons of reqs?

And in terms of balance, the fights have been kind of swingy. She's either critting every other attack (lucky dice or something) or just missing. Over and over. Cuz so many penalties.

Also I was not aware that strongarm bracers gave the same benefit as monkey grip but got rid of the penalties...very interesting.

Thank all of you for your input, it is extremely helpful. And again, I do apologize for any and all insult. I hope we can all still be friends and stuff. :smallamused:

[Urpriest]

Ladies and Gentlegiants,

My wife's character in my friend's 3.5 run is a 9th level Dwarven Fighter named Elsa.

Stats:
Str - 18
Dex - 15
Con - 15
Int - 12
Wis - 10
Cha - 8

Elsa's current equipment is as follows:

Main Hand: Large +1 Shocking Warhammer[2d6 + 1d6 shock]
Off Hand:Large +1 Flaming Warhammer[2d6 + 1d6 fire]
Ranged Option: (homebrew) Dwarven Slag Gun[1d12+3 fire damage]
Armor: Dwarven Plate
Other: Gauntlets of Ogre Power +2, Boots of Springing and Striding, and a Cloak of Shelter

Her current feats are:
Weapon Focus (Warhammer)
Weapon Spec (Warhammer)
TWF
OSTWF
Monkey Grip
Two Weapon Pounce
Eyes in the Back of Your Head

She forgot to get her bonus feat at 8th, and now our party just hit 9th. Basically I need 3 more feats, and I'm not sure where to go really. She only has 15 dex, so doesn't qualify for Improved or Greater TWF. I was thinking Imp Critical, but realistically I'm not sure where to go. No one is minmaxing/gishing/munchkining/whatever else you want to call it in this campaign.

Also, is there a reasonable way for her to increase her dexterity w/o having to spend ability points every 4th level on it?

Here's the thing: independent of whether you're optimizing (as others have pointed out, the other terms you're using are somewhat inappropriate), Fighter is a class that gives bonus feats. If your wife didn't have feats she wanted to get, she probably wouldn't have taken this many levels of Fighter. This is especially true since she chose Dwarf as a race, whose Favored Class: Fighter encourages multiclassing after you've got a fair number of Fighter levels.

I'm guessing that, back when she was planning this character, she put together a spreadsheet or the like planning out how many Fighter levels she needed to get all the feats she wanted. I think you guys would be better off finding that document than getting advice here, since most folks here have rather different ideas of what constitutes an effective 9th level character.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I can definitely see dipping barbarian for the rage and pounce, but I'm not entirely familiar with what pounce does...is it essentially the feat two weapon pounce, but without having tons of reqs?
Pretty much. Pounce allows you to make a full attack at the end of a charge, getting the usual bonuses and penalties for charging.

[Feint's End]

Fair enough. To all those I may have offended, I apologize. It was not my intent at all. I said Gish because someone told me that's what it was. Obviously I was misinformed, but ignorance is no excuse, again I'm sorry folks.

Now that I'm familiar, I guess yes I would say that our group is low op. The vision for her character...basically she wants to be a badass dwarf warrior type (Dwarves are a rare race in this campaign) who dual wields huge hammers and basically grinds her enemies to dust. In the world, her character's mother was a legendary dwarven warrior and she wants to live up to that legacy.

I can definitely see dipping barbarian for the rage and pounce, but I'm not entirely familiar with what pounce does...is it essentially the feat two weapon pounce, but without having tons of reqs?

And in terms of balance, the fights have been kind of swingy. She's either critting every other attack (lucky dice or something) or just missing. Over and over. Cuz so many penalties.

Also I was not aware that strongarm bracers gave the same benefit as monkey grip but got rid of the penalties...very interesting.

Thank all of you for your input, it is extremely helpful. And again, I do apologize for any and all insult. I hope we can all still be friends and stuff. :smallamused:

Forgotten and Forgiven. Is Tome of Battle ok for your group? What about retraining already picked feats and classlevels? Because if those things are on the table I could see it working pretty easily (without too much minmaxing and classing around).
Barbarian with Spirit Lion Totem is always a solid dip for Pounce (And could mesh with her concept rather well).

[KarmicHammer]

I'm guessing that, back when she was planning this character, she put together a spreadsheet or the like planning out how many Fighter levels she needed to get all the feats she wanted. I think you guys would be better off finding that document than getting advice here, since most folks here have rather different ideas of what constitutes an effective 9th level character.

As far as that goes, there was little to no planning for this character. She had the broad concept of it, and I helped her build it off the cuff with little to no prep time. We never really got a chance to take a good, hard look at the character in terms of numbers. Basically WYSIWYG (What you see is what you get).


Forgotten and Forgiven. Is Tome of Battle ok for your group? What about retraining already picked feats and classlevels? Because if those things are on the table I could see it working pretty easily (without too much minmaxing and classing around).
Barbarian with Spirit Lion Totem is always a solid dip for Pounce (And could mesh with her concept rather well).

Our DM is pretty lax about retraining things, we're not a strictly RAW group so no biggie. I don't see why tome of battle wouldn't be on the table. It's not that we discourage using other material, we just typically stick with what we physically own.

[Feint's End]

Our DM is pretty lax about retraining things, we're not a strictly RAW group so no biggie. I don't see why tome of battle wouldn't be on the table. It's not that we discourage using other material, we just typically stick with what we physically own.

I'd recommend retraining 3 fighter levels to Warblade levels then and just stick with Warblade all the way up to 20. You basically just need 14 Levels in a full initiator class to achieve 9th level maneuvers and Warblades work very good out of the box.

Make sure to focus on Tiger Claw and Iron Heart Maneuvers.

Another option would be something like Fighter 4, Warblade 5 (Which gives a bonusfeat too so overall she would just lose one compared to the ones she has now). She could dip one level into Barbarian for pounce if she really wants to have it and thinks it fits her character.


If retraining is allowed on a large scale I would recommend the following:
Fighter 1, Barbarian 1, Warblade 7
swap out the useless feats for some with more effect and you should be fine

Feats you would need to retain the build (you have 4 feats from levels and 2 from classes at Level 9): Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Monkey Grip
those are pretty much it leaving you with 3 feats for various shenanigans ... some things which would make sense: Extra Rage (so she can rage 3/day making it useable quite often)x1, Tiger Blooded (because knocking away opponents while raging is awesome)

From there on she could just go up Warblade and focus on Tiger Claw and Iron Heart and will do pretty good with it. I can write down a whole build too if you are interested in it.

[Artillery]

That character actually cannot wield those weapons with Monkey Grip, Monkey Grip only applies to your main-hand and doesn't function on off-hand.
You are wield a large one-handed weapon in one hand and in the other its a large weapon that takes two-hands.

Lose Monkey Grip it doesn't function on TWF characters. Trade Gauntlets of Ogre Power for a Belt of Giant Strength +2, Strength bonuses can be on items slots for hands or belt. Get Strong Arm Bracers you can now wield your Large Warhammers without penalties. So thats +2 to hit compared to before with Monkey Grip and you are actually rules legal.

Strongarm bracers are 6000gp and from Magic Item Compendium.

I do recommend a level in Barbarian using the Spirit Lion Totem for pounce. Rage and Whirling Frenzy are useful as well, but then you'd want extra rage etc.

[Andezzar]

Pretty much. Pounce allows you to make a full attack at the end of a charge, getting the usual bonuses and penalties for charging.Depending on your build Pounce is much better than two-weapon pounce. The latter gives you one attack with your right hand weapon and one with the left hand weapon, for your whole career. The former however gives you all of the attacks you get on a Full Attack.

A level 9 dwarf with ITWF would get 4 attacks, if she is hasted 5, and that is not even very much.

Once you have real pounce (from the spiritual Lion Totem ACF for the barbarian), consider going for Shock Trooper and Leap Attack. While this works better with a two-handed weapon (what doesn't for a fighter), it would probably still mean, what you charge dies. Period.

I would really think about using medium sized warhammers, or even a warhammer and a hammer, or some other light weapon. It cuts down on the penalty and the feat investment significantly.

If you do not want to buy feats for two different weapons, there is always the Aptitude Weapon ability (ToB p. 148) it lets you apply feats keyed to a single weapon type (weapon focus, weapon specialization etc.) to any weapon with that property.

[Seerow]

Depending on your build Pounce is much better than two-weapon pounce. The latter gives you one attack with your right hand weapon and one with the left hand weapon, for your whole career. The former however gives you all of the attacks you get on a Full Attack.

A level 9 dwarf with ITWF would get 4 attacks, if she is hasted 5, and that is not even very much.

Once you have real pounce (from the spiritual Lion Totem ACF for the barbarian), consider going for Shock Trooper and Leap Attack. While this works better with a two-handed weapon (what doesn't for a fighter), it would probably still mean, what you charge dies. Period.

I would really think about using medium sized warhammers, or even a warhammer and a hammer, or some other light weapon. It cuts down on the penalty and the feat investment significantly.

If you do not want to buy feats for two different weapons, there is always the Aptitude Weapon ability (ToB p. 148) it lets you apply feats keyed to a single weapon type (weapon focus, weapon specialization etc.) to any weapon with that property.

No need to drop the double hammers. Strongarm Bracers are a solid option here, and it sounds like the hammers are a big part of the players' concept. No sense in forcing them to change that.

Also worth considering: The Anvil of Thunder feat with aptitude on one of the Warhammers to make it count as an Axe for the purpose of the feat. It's a bit questionable, but I'm pretty sure it's RAW legal and either way it's not going to break the game (like someone using the same thing for the infinite attacks trick)

[Jgosse]

Ranger 6/barbarian 1/ fighter 2

favored enemy, Track, wild empathy,combat style,Endurance,Animal companion,2nd favored enemy,Improved combat style. That gives you Two Weapon and Improved Two weapon as class abilities and you can ignore the Dex prerequisite.
Take both whirling frenzy and Lion spirit totem pounce ACF. As well take the champion of the wild ACF as you won't need the spells and get some bonus feats and ditch the Animal companion for lone hunter or Distracting shot. I would probably look at levels of Deep warden after that.
1 1st LF Weapon Focus (Warhammer)
2
3 3rd LF Over sized Two wepon
4 4th LRF Two weapon defense
5
6 6th LF Power Attack
7
8 1st LFF Cleave
9 9th LF extra Rage , 2nd LFF Great Cleave

[Andezzar]

Also worth considering: The Anvil of Thunder feat with aptitude on one of the Warhammers to make it count as an Axe for the purpose of the feat. It's a bit questionable, but I'm pretty sure it's RAW legal and either way it's not going to break the game (like someone using the same thing for the infinite attacks trick)It doesn't work that way. The aptitude ability only lets you apply the benfits of feats keyed to a particular weapon to the aptitude weapon. Anvil of thunder is keyed to a specific combination of two weapons.


That gives you Two Weapon and Improved Two weapon as class abilities and you can ignore the Dex prerequisite. Only while wearing light armor or no armor.


Take both whirling frenzy and Lion spirit totem pounce ACF.Good advice.



1 1st LF Weapon Focus (Warhammer)
2
3 3rd LF Over sized Two wepon
4 4th LRF Two weapon defense
5
6 6th LF Power Attack
7
8 1st LFF Cleave
9 9th LF extra Rage , 2nd LFF Great CleaveWhat do Lf, LRF and LFF mean?

Oh forget great cleave. That character is never going to drop a significant threat with a single attack. Only then would you get the extra attack from great cleave.

[Stoneback]

Is she happy with how often her character is hitting?

Is she happy with the build so far, thematically?

If she's happy, then just keep working on those skill trees, no matter how painful it looks.

If she's not, try to get her to rebuild the levels to match the character concept. I jus convinced my wife to rebuild her ill 3/rog 3 into a beguiler 6. She's much happier even losing sneak attack.

[Seerow]

Here, I'm going to attempt a rebuild with no Tome of Battle, and still keeping the majority of levels as fighter. Basically optimizing the concept while keeping as close to the OP's build as possible.


Dwarf Ranger2/Fighter6/Barbarian 1

Str-20
Dex-10
Con-15
Int-12
Wis-13
Cha-8

I assumed both levelup bonuses went to dexterity, since you mentioned wanting to not have to do that. Also as it was written the Fighter would have started with 14 strength if you were boosting it every level, which seemed really low.

So I took those 2 levelup points out of Dex. Put them into Strength. Swapped the 13 roll from Dex into Wis, with Dex getting the 10 from Wis. This was because you didn't actually qualify for the Eyes in the Back of Your Head feat.

1) Weapon Focus (Warhammer)
1) Track (Ranger bonus)
2) Two-Weapon Fighting (Ranger bonus)
3) Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting
3) Eyes in the Back of Your Head(Fighter Bonus)
4) Power Attack(Figher Bonus)
6) Brutal Strike
6) Weapon Specialization (Warhammer) (Fighter Bonus)
8) Melee Weapon Mastery (Bludgeoning) (Fighter Bonus)
9) Extra Rage


Gear:
+1 Flaming Warhammer
+1 Shocking Warhammer
Heavy Plate
Strongarm Bracers
Gloves of the Balanced Hand
+2 Belt of Strength
Boots of Striding and Springing
Cloak of Shelter

It's a bit over Wealth by Level, but the character was already over at the start so I'm guessing you weren't sticking too close to that anyway. If it is an issue, that Cloak of Shelter is what really puts it over and is nothing more than a fancy tent. But I didn't want to remove it because I'm trying to stick as close to the original as possible


Special:
Favored Enemy (pick 1) +2
Rage 3/day (+4 Str, +4 Con, +2 Will, -2 to AC)
Pounce (Take Full attack on a charge)
Wild Empathy


Skills:
58 ranks (max rank 12) [Note: I mention this because it is a fairly significant gain from Straight Fighter who has 36 ranks. You'll have some room to play here]

Saving Throws:
+12 Fort = +10(Base)+ 2(Con) [+2 when raging]
+5 Ref = +5(Base)+ 0(dex)
+3 Will = +2 (base) +1 (Wis) [+2 when raging]


Attacking Normally:
+9(BAB)+ 5(strength)+ 1(Weapon Focus)+ 2(MWM)+ 1(enhancement)- 2(TWFing)= +16/+16/+11/+11

Damage per hit:

Mainhand: 2d6(large warhammer)+1d6(shocking/flaming) +5(strength) + 1(enhancement) + 2(MWM) + 2(Weapon Specialization) = 3d6+10 [average 20.5 damage per hit]

Offhand: 2d6(large warhammer)+1d6(shocking/flaming) +2(strength) + 1(enhancement) + 2(MWM) + 2(Weapon Specialization) = 3d6+7 [average 17.5 damage per hit]

3/day can rage to increase to +18/+18/+11/+11 for 3d6+12 MH and 3d6+8 OH.

Can power attack, and use the Brutal Strike feat to add a chance to sicken onto the attack. This will work better if you pick up leap attack or other things to boost the power attack damage.

From here you can honestly just keep advancing Fighter without worrying too much. It won't be super optimal, but it'll be functional. You may want to pick up an extra level of Ranger or Barbarian just because otherwise you'll end up with an odd number of Fighter levels, and why would you want to do that? But you could save that for level 20, assuming you ever actually get that far.

Feats to consider picking up, since you'll have roughly 10 more levels of fighter, so about 8 more feats in your career:

-Leap Attack [Increased Power Attack returns on a charge, giving you more damage and increasing the DC on Brutal Strike]

-Improved Bullrush+Shocktrooper [Don't bother with Imp Bull Rush without shocktrooper, you're not built for it. But Shock Trooper requires the former, and lets you do more charging PA shenanigans without worrying about missing so much. Definitely worth consideration]

-Crushing Strike [Cumulative bonus to hit the more attacks you make with a bludgeoning weapon]

-Pulverize Foe [from Champions of Ruin, but it fits perfectly with the character. Deal an extra d6 damage for each additional attack after your first with a bludgeoning weapon.]

-Improved Crit + Staggering Blow [Again very fitting with the character concept. Anytime you crit with your hammers, target makes fort save or gets stunned]

-Combat Focus feats. You have the Wis for it since you got that eyes in the back of your head feat, and while they're not super optimal I really like them. If you have a few feats and don't like the other options, these can be a fun choice. Combat Focus, Combat Awareness, and Combat Vigor give you +4 to Will Saves, Fast Healing 4, and Blindsight (5ft) while in combat.

Do Note: You are never getting Greater Two Weapon Fighting. An extra attack at -10 isn't worth the feat anyway, but you lack the dex to qualify for it anyway.



There are a couple of options here that can be taken without modifying anything above, and are more optimal. But I left them out because I was trying to stick closely to the original character concept.

Barbarian ACF: In addition to Spirit Lion Totem, also take Whirling Frenzy. You no longer gain bonus con while raging, but instead gain +2 to AC and Reflex Saves (instead of the normal -2 AC and +2 Will), and gain an extra attack on a full attack at your highest bonus.

Fighter ACF: Zhentarim Soldier. This is an ACF that literally just adds features onto Fighter dead levels. It gives some fun stuff with intimidate, culiminating with Intimidate in combat as a swift action. Combine this with maxing out intimidate (if it's not already maxed, you now have extra skillpoints to do so), and taking the Never Outnumbered skilltrick. Synergizes beautifully with the auto-sickening and stunning that the feats listed above give, making the fighter a solid debuffer in addition to her damage output.

[Particle_Man]

Since she has Weapon Focus, she could go for Greater Weapon Focus.

[OldTrees1]

Here, I'm going to attempt a rebuild with no Tome of Battle, and still keeping the majority of levels as fighter. Basically optimizing the concept while keeping as close to the OP's build as possible.

Thank you. This is the kind of respectful help this forum should give more often.

[KarmicHammer]

Ok so I just spoke with my DM.

He said at most he'll let her respec 3 of her feats and retcon the hammers to medium size. I still have to talk with the wife about it, and see what she wants to do. All in all my goal is to make her less swingy. Not destroying one combat and feeling useless in the next one. I don't want her to get discouraged you know?

Thank you all for your help, it's extremely appreciated. 18 strength was base, and neither level up bonus was applied for some reason (I think we just forgot). Also where is this leveling strength every level thing coming from? I'm confused.

Also the character wealth by level thing....this DM kinda throws that to the wind. Because she had to play catch up (her previous character in this campaign was killed, then resurrected, then retired) he gave her the one magical hammer, the dwarven plate, and the gun. The rest was bought save for the cloak of shelter, that was found last session.

Seerow your post kinda blew my mind. Thank you so much for the help.

[Seerow]

Thank you all for your help, it's extremely appreciated. 18 strength was base, and neither level up bonus was applied for some reason (I think we just forgot). Also where is this leveling strength every level thing coming from? I'm confused.


Think this was a miscommunication. You don't level strength every level. I just assumed because you had it listed as an 18 with a +2 item, you either started with a 16 and didn't apply either levelup perk, or started with a 14 and did apply them both. I went with the assumption of 16.

But since it was 18 base, ammend my post's Strength value from 20 to 22 (18+2[levelup]+2[enhancement], which adds an extra point of hit and damage to both mainhand and offhand attacks.


Seerow your post kinda blew my mind. Thank you so much for the help.


You're welcome. Even if you can't take advantage of all of it, hopefully there's stuff that's in there that will be useful to you.

Given the ability to retrain 3 feats (plus take 1 more since that's what you initially asked for), I'd go with:

Weapon Focus (Warhammer)
Weapon Spec (Warhammer)
TWF [May as well keep it if you can't rebuild stats/levels. If you can convince the DM to retrain even 2 fighter levels to ranger, drop this in favor of 2 ranger levels and change the stats as I mentioned]
OSTWF
Eyes in the Back of Your Head
Monkey Grip -> Melee Weapon Mastery
Two Weapon Pounce -> Power Attack
New Feat: Brutal Strike


So you're only retraining away two of the feats, 3 if you can get a level rebuild (in which case you're really just trading the two levels of fighter giving you TWFing for 2 levels of ranger giving you the same thing plus some more stuff, without the dex prerequisite). The next level you want either 1 more fighter level with Leap Attack, or a Barbarian dip (for the Rage/Pounce).

Remember, without swapping around stats you still don't technically actually qualify for Eyes in the Back of Your Head. I never got rid of that because that seems like the kind of flavor thing that will make the character feel different, but if that's the case you can use your third feat retrain to drop that for leap attack early.

[Jgosse]

Only while wearing light armor or no armor.
by 9th level should be easy to get mithril breast plate.




What do Lf, LRF and LFF mean?


Level Feat
Level Ranger Feat
Level Fighter Feat

[weckar]

I'm guessing that, back when she was planning this character, she put together a spreadsheet or the like planning out how many Fighter levels she needed to get all the feats she wanted. I think you guys would be better off finding that document than getting advice here, since most folks here have rather different ideas of what constitutes an effective 9th level character.
I'm going to say something, and it may shock you, but not everyone plans their characters out in advance.

[Urpriest]

I'm going to say something, and it may shock you, but not everyone plans their characters out in advance.

Yes, because not everyone plays D&D 3.5.

[OldTrees1]

Yes, because not everyone plays D&D 3.5.

Some 3.5 players plan 1 level at a time. Just because 3.5 punishes players that do not plan ahead, does not mean all players plan ahead.

My very first character (3.0) was planned level by level until 3rd level. Then I found a prestige class I wanted and started planning on how to raise my Int twice to grab a feat to enter the prestige class 3 levels late.
Only 2 players in my playgroup moved on to plan their builds in advance (me and my brother).

[Darrin]

If she's happy and having fun with her oversized warhammers, then I'd probably leave most of her existing character choices alone for the time being.

If you're just looking for feats, then I'd suggest a look-see at my TWF OffHandbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15034585#post15034585).

One of the things I like about Oversize TWF is it allows you to Power Attack with both your primary and offhand weapon. I'd try steering her towards that, maybe replace Monkey Grip, Two Weapon Pounce and Eyes in the Back of Your Head with Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, and Shock Trooper. I'd also want to grab Brutal Strike (PHBII) ASAP for the Fort save vs. sicken, then maybe steer her towards Melee Weapon Mastery and Crushing Strike.

[ericgrau]

Ugh, not another suggestion to use shock trooper and become a copy of 100,000 other forum builds.

What the OP is doing isn't low OP, it isn't high OP, it's fairly medium to good. Low for these forums if anything. He wasn't trying to insult someone when he said his group isn't munchkining. And yes, it is bad to do so in his group because it doesn't match his group. In yours it may be different. Shock trooper is an overpowered editing mistake that's likely to be too much for the OP's group. For others it might not be, or it may even be too little, but their group is not the OP's group.

But besides shock trooper there have been a ton of nice suggestions, so that's good.

[Vogonjeltz]

Fair enough. To all those I may have offended, I apologize. It was not my intent at all. I said Gish because someone told me that's what it was. Obviously I was misinformed, but ignorance is no excuse, again I'm sorry folks.

Now that I'm familiar, I guess yes I would say that our group is low op. The vision for her character...basically she wants to be a badass dwarf warrior type (Dwarves are a rare race in this campaign) who dual wields huge hammers and basically grinds her enemies to dust. In the world, her character's mother was a legendary dwarven warrior and she wants to live up to that legacy.

I can definitely see dipping barbarian for the rage and pounce, but I'm not entirely familiar with what pounce does...is it essentially the feat two weapon pounce, but without having tons of reqs?

And in terms of balance, the fights have been kind of swingy. She's either critting every other attack (lucky dice or something) or just missing. Over and over. Cuz so many penalties.

Also I was not aware that strongarm bracers gave the same benefit as monkey grip but got rid of the penalties...very interesting.

Thank all of you for your input, it is extremely helpful. And again, I do apologize for any and all insult. I hope we can all still be friends and stuff. :smallamused:

Ignorance of the law is no excuse. This is just d&d. Munchkining is a technical term, and not the least bit inherently insulting.