Making a Master Thief

[Nettlekid]

I know this is a pretty basic concept, but I've been trying to think about how to build the best thief at higher levels. Someone who of course can steal physical things, but also someone who boasts being able to steal darkness, steal death, steal belief, steal memory. I would think just having some sort of caster works best for that, though there are some abilities that I think would require specific PrC abilities to do.

I also want to focus largely on Master Pickpocket, because it's a hilarious feat which, with a high enough Sleight of Hand, lets you make your opponent's pockets your own. I've seen that thread about the Lightning Thief, and while it's good inspiration, that was all about absolutely maximizing Sleight of Hand while doing nothing else, which isn't really necessary. (Incidentally, is there any way to increase the area considered "adjacent" to you?)

So yeah, I'd like to build a thief who uses Sleight of Hand, and probably also spells, and hopefully has some kind of offensive presence. I'm currently thinking Factotum 8/Chameleon 10/Marshal 1/Exemplar 1, maxing out Sleight of Hand and Iaijutsu Focus for damage, and using Chameleon spells for utility, but I'm simultaneous worried that I'll end up putting too much focus on the Chameleon spells and so it'll lose the feel of the thief, but also that level 6 spells will be too low to manage at high levels. I sort of want to toss some Spellthief in there with Master Spellthief for flavor, but in order to cast any high level stolen spells I'd need some heavier investment into Spellthief, which has too little of a payoff.
I also considered doing something with Telflammar Shadowlord, since a shadow-jumping guy seems very thiefy, but without spells I don't think it'll have enough utility at high levels.
Ebon Saint is pretty cool for a unique thief, but it would be hard to make it useful without putting too much emphasis on whatever Psionic class went into it.

So, any recommendations? Thieves of abstract concepts that would make a good clever and proud character?

[Zweisteine]

Play a wizard (or a cleric, or, best of all, a Sha'ir)!

That's the only way you'll be able to steal death and other concepts from people. Individual characetrs may be able to steal souls, or shadows, or money, but only a wizard can steal all three.

Sha'ir is even better, because you can re-fluff it as stealing its spells from djinn.

For this, Ur-priest is better than Cleric, because they (might) steal spells from deities, and later on steal SLAs from creatures!

Maybe Sha'ir 10/Ur-priest 10...

Yeah, I can't think of much for this beyond, the default "play a wizard" response, though I vaguely remember seeing something about stealing shadows or something...

[Nettlekid]

Okay, I think I made it pretty clear that I DIDN'T want the caster element to overshadow the thief element. Now, were I able to get some casting class and progress it with a thief-based PrC, like Ur-Priest into Black Flame Zealot, then I could see the high caster thing. But I did mention that even Chameleon's 6th level spells I worried detracted from the thief feel of it. I'd appreciate some kind of build help that doesn't immediately go to "Wizards do it better." Yeah, we know.

[mucat]

I know this is a pretty basic concept, but I've been trying to think about how to build the best thief at higher levels. Someone who of course can steal physical things, but also someone who boasts being able to steal darkness, steal death, steal belief, steal memory.
Perhaps I'm just reading too much into the word "boasts", but how about a non-caster or caster-light master thief (maybe some blend of rogue, bard, and/or factotum?) who can steal anything within reason, and actively cultivates the legend of being able to steal anything beyond reason, up to and including abstract concepts?

Rather than routinely stealing thoughts and such things through class abilities, have the character view every situation as an opportunity to steal something impossible. How that is done is an exercise in creativity. Subvert a ritual and steal back stolen souls? Steal the evil priest's devotion? Steal the cultists' madness, leaving them sane and thus powerless?

It might be more fun to find one-shot ways to steal a different impossible thing each adventure, and make sure the legend spreads (bard levels? A friend with bard levels?) than to simply say, "I have class abilities that let me steal <foo>."

And of course, when there are no abstractions to steal, you can always fall back on an ingenious con or jewel heist. Thief's gotta eat...

[Piggy Knowles]

Shadowcasters get outrageously good bonuses to sleight of hand, and allow you to do it from range. That's pretty nice.

Ebon Saint allows you to steal memories, answers to questions, and you can even steal someone's form.

In a short-lived gestalt campaign, I played a shadowcaster||psychic rogue/ebon saint, that was basically focused on being a master thief. It was pretty fun while it lasted.

[Nettlekid]

Perhaps I'm just reading too much into the word "boasts", but how about a non-caster or caster-light master thief (maybe some blend of rogue, bard, and/or factotum?) who can steal anything within reason, and actively cultivates the legend of being able to steal anything beyond reason, up to and including abstract concepts?

Rather than routinely stealing thoughts and such things through class abilities, have the character view every situation as an opportunity to steal something impossible. How that is done is an exercise in creativity. Subvert a ritual and steal back stolen souls? Steal the evil priest's devotion? Steal the cultists' madness, leaving them sane and thus powerless?

It might be more fun to find one-shot ways to steal a different impossible thing each adventure, and make sure the legend spreads (bard levels? A friend with bard levels?) than to simply say, "I have class abilities that let me steal <foo>."

And of course, when there are no abstractions to steal, you can always fall back on an ingenious con or jewel heist. Thief's gotta eat...

I think the whole "stealing of abstracts" will indeed be largely embellished, but since I'm building this character up to 20th level where people regularly do universe-altering things, I feel as though it's not necessarily impossible to do impossible things. And that second paragraph is exactly what I'd want to go for. A lot of it would be roleplaying, but I'd like to have the capabilities to back up the impossible things the character wants to do. Like if he were to steal back stolen souls, he's gonna have to be strong enough to break into hell. That sort of thing.




Shadowcasters get outrageously good bonuses to sleight of hand, and allow you to do it from range. That's pretty nice.

Ebon Saint allows you to steal memories, answers to questions, and you can even steal someone's form.

In a short-lived gestalt campaign, I played a shadowcaster||psychic rogue/ebon saint, that was basically focused on being a master thief. It was pretty fun while it lasted.

Point out the Sleight of Hand stuff from Shadowcasters to me? I see that Fundamental that gives them +5, but that's not exactly outrageous, and I don't see where it lets them do things from range. Shadowcasters are indeed pretty cool, and I was thinking about using some Shadowcaster stuff, but it requires too great an investment until you're basically ALL Shadowcaster.

Similarly, Ebon Saint keeps coming to my mind as an excellent thief type, because the whole "stealing memories/knowledge/form" is so cool. But in order to have enough PP to fuel those Dire Augments, I'd need substantial investment into some psionic class, and then I run the risk of just being a greatly unoptimized Psion, which is kind of lame.

[gorfnab]

Point out the Sleight of Hand stuff from Shadowcasters to me? I see that Fundamental that gives them +5, but that's not exactly outrageous, and I don't see where it lets them do things from range. Shadowcasters are indeed pretty cool, and I was thinking about using some Shadowcaster stuff, but it requires too great an investment until you're basically ALL Shadowcaster.

Quicker Than the Eye (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070307a) - Shadowcaster Mystery

[Nettlekid]

Quicker Than the Eye (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070307a) - Shadowcaster Mystery

Whoa...suddenly Shadowcaster becomes very appealing, because I don't know of anything else that can do that (except I guess Arcane Trickster, and that's not super impressive).

With Shadowcasters though, it seems like I need a lot of investment in order to do much of anything with them. And the only Shadowcaster PrC that looks any good is Master of Shadow (Noctumancer is also okay but not for this character type.) I'd also need either some dips and Able Learner or Criminal Background to get Sleight of Hand as a skill. What suggestions do people have for making a stealthy thiefy Shadowcaster?

[Piggy Knowles]

The easiest way would probably be a level of rogue and Able Learner. That also gives you SA, so with Craven you can become a faux-warlock at the higher levels when you get Arrow of Dusk at will. Psychic rogue is a reasonable dip alternative, though - dimensional pocket for a quick place to stash your ill-gotten gains doesn't hurt, and it qualifies you for psionic feats.

Factotum 3/shadowcaster 7 is another option, giving you Int to your sleight of hand checks, but it means seriously delaying your access to higher level mysteries.

If your DM was feeling friendly and allowed QttE to work with mage hand too, a whisper gnome with levels in shadow smith could be fun.

[nedz]

Spellthief / Beguiler / Unseen Seer
with the Master Spellthief feat, of course.

The main question is: how many levels of spellthief do you take ?
This governs how many spell levels you can hold.
ST also has some nice class features: Absorb spell at 7th is pretty cool.

More levels of ST will reduce you spellcasting, but you are just using that to support your thievery anyway.

[Bloodgruve]

I would suggest not going Iaijutsu Focus in a build like this, depending on your play group and DM. Craven would be good though. IF takes a lot of optimization and resources to pull off consistently.

Item Familiar feat could really help you bump up your Slight of Hand. Invest full ranks into it, can effectively double your ranks.

Blood~

[Nettlekid]

Okay, so after being inspired by the whole Shadowcaster's Umbral Hand/Quicker than the Eye thing, I've put this together as a build idea. It definitely could use some work though, mainly with regard to getting enough skill points/high enough skills, but also just to make the most of the levels.

The build is Rogue 1/Shadowcaster 4/Ur-Priest 1/Mystic Theurge 9/Earth Dreamer 5. This ends up with Shadowcaster 18 mysteries and 10th level Ur-Priest spells. I was also thinking about Factotum 3/Shadowcaster 2 to start with, which ends up with only Shadowcaster 16 mysteries. I feel as though that 4th level of Shadowcaster is a waste, but I don't know what to replace it with that really adds something to the build. Earth Dreamer is just an interesting class that is easy to enter and progresses Shadowcaster, but I expect there's something better out there. I'm open to suggestions.

EDIT: Dweomerkeeper might be pretty cool, but it seems like getting the Magic Domain would be a bit of a challenge.

[Santra]

10 levels of Ur-Priest so you can steal spells from gods and spell-like abilities from monsters.

[Nettlekid]

So I'm thinking...Rogue 1/Shadowcaster 4/Ur-Priest 1/Mystic Theurge 8/Contemplative 1/Dweomerkeeper 4. This would end up with Shadowcaster 17 mysteries, Ur-Priest 10 spells, and gets Dweomerkeeper stuff like Supernatural Spell which is awesome. The only sticking point is the lack of arcane magic to qualify for Dweomerkeeper. I could use either Magical Training to get 0 level spells, or Southern Magician to let Ur-Priest's spells count as arcane a few times per day, but I'd prefer not to have to waste a feat that I would be unable to Chaos Shuffle out when I was done with it (like I would for Precocious Apprentice or Sanctum Spell if I needed early entry tricks.) Any suggestions?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Beguiler from PH2 is exactly what you're looking for. They get all the right skills, plus a wide selection of enchantments, illusions, and utility spells to handle nearly any situation. Beguiler 5/ Mindbender 1/ Beguiler 14 is fairly standard, and you can get Versatile Spellcaster (plus Heighten Spell if necessary) to gain early access to the next higher level of spells and get higher level spells via Advanced Learning. Definitely learn Shadow Form and Superior Invisibility, and I'd also get Ray of Stupidity and Greater Shadow Evocation/Conjuration.

Edit: The most proficient thief never has to stab anyone, so Sneak Attack should be right out.

[Nettlekid]

Beguiler from PH2 is exactly what you're looking for. They get all the right skills, plus a wide selection of enchantments, illusions, and utility spells to handle nearly any situation. Beguiler 5/ Mindbender 1/ Beguiler 14 is fairly standard, and you can get Versatile Spellcaster (plus Heighten Spell if necessary) to gain early access to the next higher level of spells and get higher level spells via Advanced Learning. Definitely learn Shadow Form and Superior Invisibility, and I'd also get Ray of Stupidity and Greater Shadow Evocation/Conjuration.

Edit: The most proficient thief never has to stab anyone, so Sneak Attack should be right out.

The Rogue is there not for Sneak Attack but skills, and maybe taking Changeling Rogue for the ability to take 10 on social skills.

I'm really feeling the Shadowcaster thing, so I'd appreciate advice on the build I posted a short while ago.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The Rogue is there not for Sneak Attack but skills, and maybe taking Changeling Rogue for the ability to take 10 on social skills.

I'm really feeling the Shadowcaster thing, so I'd appreciate advice on the build I posted a short while ago.

Feat Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue) gets you Improved Initiative instead of that 1d6 Sneak Attack. You could also replace the Rogue level with Spellthief, for access to wands of Wizard spells of certain schools, plus the ability to steal low-level spells.

[Nettlekid]

Feat Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue) gets you Improved Initiative instead of that 1d6 Sneak Attack. You could also replace the Rogue level with Spellthief, for access to wands of Wizard spells of certain schools, plus the ability to steal low-level spells.

Yes, I know that, that was one potential intention. The other was to take Craven and use Arrow of Dusk for some nice nonlethal sniping. But that means I couldn't have Mind Blank, which is useful.