Two Handed Weapon AND Two-Weapon Fighting?

[ArendK]

So today as I was tinkering around with a few builds, a thought came to me.
Back 3.5, I ran a dwarf fighter who specialized in "beating things with a giant hammer and throwing his weight around." Game mechanics wise, he was a dwarf figher/barbarian in classic spiked armor (can't remember level distribution, doesn't matter anyways) who did the power attack route, but picked up TWF. The GM at the time, who wasn't quite used to my shenanigans, looked over, thought I made a mistake, but I told him I was sure. He shrugged, and didn't think much more of it.

Until combat started (we were doing RHoD, so that took about 5 minutes).
Combat started; dwarf charged. Not a surprise. I hit and kill. Also no surprise.
Scary bladebearer-thingy saves me the effort and closes ranks with me.
Round 2; I announce full attack; GM gives me funny look. I roll for giant hammer and hit for solid damage; then roll for armor spikes. As the GM's brain comprehended my plan (he wasn't a bad GM, but just generally didn't think like that), he swore up and down rather loudly. As this killed the annoying bladebearer before he got to do anything nasty to us, he was a tad-bit frustrated.

This was several years ago.

I was reviewing Pathfinders archetypes and thinking of ideas for them as I was working on the Two Handed Fighter. From the way I read it, it seems that the bonuses only apply to the two-handed weapon itself. So for a -2 to hit, there (to me) is the potential for a lot more damage from the Spikes as well. Even with Power Attack (not an ideal situation for attack rolls), it sounds like the big weapon would still get its full damage and the spikes just an extra 4-10 damage or so+ it's measly power attack bonus.

What do the Playgrounders think?

[bekeleven]

It's a legit build. However, the wording of a number of feats and abilities get called into question because designers don't think of it.

The worst is off-hand. It refers to three things in the rules: A secondary weapon (1/2 Str, etc.), a weapon designed to be used secondary ("You can bash an opponent with a heavy shield, using it as an off-hand weapon"), and the act of striking with one of the above. The meaning in rules is, therefore, sometimes ambiguous.

But yes, besides Elven Courtblade and similar, 2H weapons are the strongest uses of 2-weapon fighting.

[Snowbluff]

TWF Twohanders was a thing in 3.5.

The Three Blades, a build so natural it has been spawned by multiple people, had this as its main schtick. Warblade5/RevenantBlade5/EternalBlade10, while wielding a Valenar Double Scimitar, could power attack for the double value on each side.

Thri-kreen, Diopsid, and Insectile (Template) creatures had extra arms to do the same.

I like the idea of shoulder-checking people with armor spikes while using a halberd. I never got to do it, though.

[Yorrin]

TWF Twohanders was a thing in 3.5.

...

Thri-kreen, Diopsid, and Insectile (Template) creatures had extra arms to do the same.

I was actually wondering how this worked for a character idea I had. Like lets say I had a character with four arms that wanted to wield two Greatswords. Assuming he had the TWF feat, what would the penalties on his attacks be?

My best reading of the rules is getting a total of -4 to each as per the rules for fighting with with two one-handed weapons, but is that right?

[Snowbluff]

I was actually wondering how this worked for a character idea I had. Like lets say I had a character with four arms that wanted to wield two Greatswords. Assuming he had the TWF feat, what would the penalties on his attacks be?

My best reading of the rules is getting a total of -4 to each as per the rules for fighting with with two one-handed weapons, but is that right?

-4/-4. IIRC, -2/-2 specifically is for wielding light weapons, so it defaults onto -4/-4.

[Andezzar]

I don't know about Pathfinder, but 3.5 has the feat Oversized Two-weapon Fighting which gives you the penalties of wielding a light weapon in the off-hand, even if the weapon actually is a one-handed weapon.

Also the -2/-2 is for wielding a light weapon in the off-hand, what you do with your main hand is irrelevant. So a greatsword and armor spikes (a light weapon) gives you the reduced penalty even without an additional feat.

How can you achieve that Three Blades build? Warblade 5 cannot get 5 ranks in Hide or Move Silently.

[Snowbluff]

It might have had a ranger level. It's been forever since I've built it.

[Hruken]

Well, the design team confirmed via this FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qw9) that this doesn't work. So, don't try it with an inflexible GM.

[Perseus]

Well, the design team confirmed via this FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qw9) that this doesn't work. So, don't try it with an inflexible GM.

Yeah but the PF design team doesn't knows its own head from a hole in the ground.

It is as if they took 3.5's CustServ personnel and let them do the FAQ for Pathfinder.

[bekeleven]

Well, the design team confirmed via this FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qw9) that this doesn't work. So, don't try it with an inflexible GM.

haha, that's awesome. "You have both hands on your weapon, so you don't have a hand free to wield your armor spikes." Thanks, pathfinder.

[Captnq]

I'll do you one better.

A halfling holding a +1 Balanced Hornblade Large 6-handed scissor sword...

In each hand.

3d8 damage baby, with a free grapple on every critical hit.

[deuxhero]

It is as if they took 3.5's CustServ personnel and let them do the FAQ for Pathfinder.

Does PF's FAQ have any examples that are incorrect and ignore basic rules (or ones they state in the same thing?)

[Perseus]

haha, that's awesome. "You have both hands on your weapon, so you don't have a hand free to wield your armor spikes." Thanks, pathfinder.


Does PF's FAQ have any examples that are incorrect and ignore basic rules (or ones they state in the same thing?)

More of completely idiotic rulings.

See above.

Also the flurry + twf from SKR. You can't twf while flurrying because you only have two hands even through the monk can flurry with their legs, head, or pelvic thrust.

[Gemini476]

More of completely idiotic rulings.

See above.

Also the flurry + twf from SKR. You can't twf while flurrying because you only have two hands even through the monk can flurry with their legs, head, or pelvic thrust.

An old ruling that has since been overruled was that you can't flurry with a a single fist (since it's TWF). That is, you need to use one hand for half your Flurry attacks and the other one for the rest.

I never really understood SKR.

[Namfuak]

I was actually wondering how this worked for a character idea I had. Like lets say I had a character with four arms that wanted to wield two Greatswords. Assuming he had the TWF feat, what would the penalties on his attacks be?

My best reading of the rules is getting a total of -4 to each as per the rules for fighting with with two one-handed weapons, but is that right?

You would take multiweapon fighting instead, which brings the penalties down to -4 on all hands, but it also says to look at 2-weapon fighting so there is an argument to be made that if your offhand is using a light weapon the penalty is -2 (whether all offhands or only one need to be using a light weapon is of course dubious, although I suppose this is possibly not a RAW interpretation anyway).

[ArendK]

So in other words;

I need hands to handle my armor spikes?

Brain...Hurting...

[Namfuak]

So in other words;

I need hands to handle my armor spikes?

Brain...Hurting...

If you aren't a monk, you aren't trained to use any part of your body except your hands to handle weapons. Therefore, armor spikes must be used by grabbing the based of a spike with the opposite hand and shoving it at your opponent.

[Hruken]

The way I see their ruling is that you need metaphorical "hands" to wield the armor spikes, which has little to do with your actual hands, and, no, no, it is just a complete mess. There was some talk of the ruling hinging on some "unwritten rules," but I am too lazy to dig through the all the posts about it to find out more. People got really worked up over it.


Edit: spelling

[Firechanter]

Note to OP: if you're talking about PF, you might want to edit a [PF] tag into the Title. It's kinda customary on this board that topics are about 3.5 by default unless specified otherwise by tag.

[And about 80-90% of all threads are about 3.5 so it makes sense.]

Because in 3.5, TWFing with a two-handed weapon and unarmed strike or armour spikes is totally a thing. ^^

[Fax Celestis]

Hell, you don't even need four arms. Just wield a double weapon. Since you wield it in two hands, it works for THF stuff, and it counts as two weapons for TWF.

Seriously. Point me at the rule where it says wielding a two-handed double weapon works like wielding two one-handed weapons instead of like a two-handed weapon. The exemption for double weapons is that they act like a one-handed weapon and a light weapon for TWF penalties, not for anything else: as such, a double weapon is a two-handed weapon no matter how you swing it.