The Effects of Magic on the Prostitution Industry

[ryu]

This thread is primarily designed to prevent a different thread from going off topic. That said this is the place to start debating on anything related to D&D prostitution.

[Honest Tiefling]

Gods being able to communicate in a very direct method would probably make things quite clear on if they approve or not. I wonder if they would be likely to enforce a more universal age of consent.

[ryu]

I think what would happen with deities is that most of them would have vastly different dogmas on the subject dependent on portfolio. Some may even approve fully. I personally think it would either boil down to gods having no direct intervention on the subject or exercise direct control in their areas of local dominance.

[Honest Tiefling]

I think it would depend greatly on the alliance between gods, particularly those of more good or neutral alignment. Would also depend on if churches influence laws, or if laws influence the church and how religious the populace is.

[Fax Celestis]

I feel like consumables and spell trigger items of disguise self, alter self, and eagle's splendor would be in significant demand. Shiftweave garments too.

I think the Sharn book actually talks about this subject a little.

[ryu]

I think it would depend greatly on the alliance between gods, particularly those of more good or neutral alignment. Would also depend on if churches influence laws, or if laws influence the church and how religious the populace is.

And then you have gods of hedonism, beauty, pleasure, love, fertility, and other such things providing direct motivation to make this business a thing. Gods of commerce might even be for it depending on a few factors.

[Necroticplague]

Gods being able to communicate in a very direct method would probably make things quite clear on if they approve or not. I wonder if they would be likely to enforce a more universal age of consent.

If anything, age of consent is an even fuzzier possibility in dnd. After all, different races age up at different rates. A fully able to consent goblin or Orc is an early pubescent elf at best.

Similarly, shape-shifting magic and lycanthropes combined with magical beasts of human intellect make bestiality a less distinct issue.

[Honest Tiefling]

Trueseeing for the expensive brothels. Being assure that what you see is what you get might become a valued commodity if it becomes a mark of status. Not only are you rich enough to get the actually pretty ones, but you have the magic to confirm it.

Of course, things might go the complete opposite way where augmentation is desired. Love, beauty, sex and magic are gifts from the gods and intertwined with one another. I would think this sort of society would greatly value weird and exotic features, and might react differently to magical races such as gnomes, elves, and even aasimar and genasi.

EDIT: Now I am imagining a lawful god who tells worshipers that he doesn't want to hear those questions EVER.

[ryu]

If anything, age of consent is an even fuzzier possibility in dnd. After all, different races age up at different rates. A fully able to consent goblin or Orc is an early pubescent elf at best.

Similarly, shape-shifting magic and lycanthropes combined with magical beasts of human intellect make bestiality a less distinct issue.

Judging by the fact that owl bears and other chimeras exist I'd say the issue is also muddled animal to animal. Also for some odd reason there's a part human variant for everything, but almost none of the other sentient races breed with each other.

[Fax Celestis]

Judging by the fact that owl bears and other chimeras exist I'd say the issue is also muddled animal to animal. Also for some odd reason there's a part human variant for everything, but almost none of the other sentient races breed with each other.

The creepy side of the "humans are different" design perspective.

[Coidzor]

So what's the progenitor thread?

The Detect Disease spell is a level 0 spell from Oriental Adventures from the Shaman list. A DC 20 Wisdom or Heal check will reveal what type of disease it is. This will obviously be useful for both screening those entering a bordello as well as screening the employees there.

Alternatively, a resetting magical trap or spell clock or what have you of Remove Disease could just be used to eliminate any parasites(fleas, scabies, lice) as well as any diseases that anyone entering the bordello would have.

Aside from BoEF and its ilk, I don't believe magical contraception is covered beyond some kind of tea in Forgotten Realms, Bestow Curse, and some other items similar to the tea in Pathfinder(and also some kind of snuff that turns men's eyes and fingernails yellow when they take it habitually).

No pregnancies and no VD takes care of a fair number of issues.

[Honest Tiefling]

Clearly the god of sex has chosen humans as their chosen and goes by the mantra of 'Doesn't matter, had sex'. Through the idea that humans were favored by a god of fertility who has some sort of master plan with breeding is interesting.

Also, I do not think the Owlbear was made by an owl boinking a bear, through the image of an owl in a dress and make-up is amusing.

[Tengu_temp]

Cure Disease is a spell that will see a lot of use. Also Protection From <client's alignment>.


And then you have gods of hedonism, beauty, pleasure, love, fertility, and other such things providing direct motivation to make this business a thing. Gods of commerce might even be for it depending on a few factors.

I imagine that places where worshipping such gods is common will have a lot of legal, safe and clean establishments where the employees are willing and treated well. Stigma against prostitution would be lower in such cities, maybe even nonexistant.

[Coidzor]

Also, I do not think the Owlbear was made by an owl boinking a bear, through the image of an owl in a dress and make-up is amusing.

Indeed, in that case it's clear that a Wizard did it. :smallamused:

[Karnith]

So what's the progenitor thread?
Why does evocation suck? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=332177), appropriately enough.

[ryu]

Progenitor thread was Why do Evocations Suck? Should still be on front page.

Swordsaged.

[nedz]

Also, I do not think the Owlbear was made by an owl boinking a bear, through the image of an owl in a dress and make-up is amusing.
Indeed, in that case it's clear that a Wizard did it. :smallamused:

An awakened Owl Wizard perhaps, with suitable enlargement transmutations obviously. :smallwink:

[veti]

Consider the vastly expanded range of "options". There'd be specialised services in - well, everything, ranging from kinky (lizardfolk, centaurs) to downright distasteful, which I'm not even going to spell out because eugh, but it'd be there.

I'm reminded of the game 'Witcher', which featured a brothel where you could get it on with a troop of vampires in a steamy five-in-a-coffin romp. Gods, that game was tacky. But interesting, as an example of a horribly-dystopian fantasy world.

[Honest Tiefling]

Which would beg the question of, what races are present and considered 'people'. I mean, how would people react if a Satyr walked in looking to hire someone(s)?

[Jack_Simth]

Let's see... The specific effects will depend on the availability of spells, and costs, and how much a given lady of the night earns. Oh yes, and sources. However... I'm thinking it would cause things to tend towards bordellos.

First, the spells for making this relatively safe are all cleric spells of 3rd level. So the best madams are all Cleric-5's (or better) of an appropriate deity. Bestow Curse for infertility to keep the girls from losing their jobs, Remove Disease and Lesser Restoration to keep them all healthy. Note that the Madam doesn't have to be a cleric - a rogue or bard with Use Magic Device and a lesser strand of prayer beads can fill in, as long as the girls get a hired Bestow Curse.

That said, the spells to make it the most enjoyable for the clients are all Sorcerer/Wizard spells. While most Sorcerers and Wizards will have better things to do than using Alter Self to entertain clients, a simulacrum of a succubus is a gold mine if you rent it out to an upscale bordello - Charimsa 26, and Change Shape to suit the clients' tastes. There are of course higher-end critters to use, but it's one of the least expensive that still does very well. Just need to make sure to remember to order her not to drain the clients (unless you're slipping in an assassin, of course). Likewise, Polymorph Any Object is a handy way for the enterprising wizard to customize his employees to his customer's tastes.

One might think a Hat of Disguise might be a good idea, but with the Will save DC of 11, half the commoner-1's will realize it right away, so you won't get much repeat business.

[Honest Tiefling]

Could make for an interesting setting that has a great divide between the wealth of commoners and the wealth of nobles. Nobles pay for great amount of magic with their entertainment, while the commoners have no access to magic that isn' t provided by a charitable church or mage.

Could make a trip to the bordello help flesh out the world!

[Clistenes]

I feel like consumables and spell trigger items of disguise self, alter self, and eagle's splendor would be in significant demand. Shiftweave garments too.

I think the Sharn book actually talks about this subject a little.

Too expensive. I think only the highest level courtesans would be able to purchase those, and they would be competing with the Aasimar, Dryad, Nymph and Succubus Simulacrums and Pleasure Golems, Rose Golems and Figurines of Wondrous Power that super-rich people could buy.

Mmmm...which other Constructs are human-like enough that they could be given that use if they received some minor modifications?

[Honest Tiefling]

Assuming a good-ish/neutral-ish society, even a simulacrum of a succubus might be banned or unprofitable due to superstition. Especially if word gets out about that drain attack...

Dryads and Nymphs are creatures of the wild, both of which detest most mortals. That might require more coercion then is feasible. Aasimar are just too dang rare to really work as you'd have to find them and convince them to stop being paladins.

[hymer]

And then you have gods of hedonism, beauty, pleasure, love, fertility, and other such things providing direct motivation to make this business a thing.

That's one way to spin it. Another is that 'Thou shalt not sell what is holy'. The gods of hedonism, beauty, etc. may be strongly disinclined to see their gift to the world bought and sold and taken advantage of. They might also be against it simply because they don't want their portfolio associated with people exploiting each other.

[Gamereaper]

I can just see signs in front of brothels.

DOUBLE ESCORT SPECIAL!

You buy 2 Escorts for an hour.
Get a Potion of Cure Disease FREE!

[Clistenes]

Assuming a good-ish/neutral-ish society, even a simulacrum of a succubus might be banned or unprofitable due to superstition. Especially if word gets out about that drain attack...

Dryads and Nymphs are creatures of the wild, both of which detest most mortals. That might require more coercion then is feasible. Aasimar are just too dang rare to really work as you'd have to find them and convince them to stop being paladins.

I meat Aasimar Simulacrums, Dryad Simulacrums, Nymph Simulacrums and Succubus Simulacrums, not real Aasimar, Dryads, Nymphs and Succubus. All the dealer would need is a strand of hair from the right creature.

[Mithril Leaf]

Assuming a good-ish/neutral-ish society, even a simulacrum of a succubus might be banned or unprofitable due to superstition. Especially if word gets out about that drain attack...

Dryads and Nymphs are creatures of the wild, both of which detest most mortals. That might require more coercion then is feasible. Aasimar are just too dang rare to really work as you'd have to find them and convince them to stop being paladins.

Movanic Deva simulacra would work pretty well for the goody goody two shoes societies, plus they've got the important spells innately. Remove Curse, Remove Disease, and Atonement.

[Telonius]

Changelings (and doppelgangers) would probably be pretty sought-after.

Remember, Appearance is not an ability score unless you're using BoEF's rules. You can magically change your shape into any form you want to, making it seem as close to (or as far away from) a given culture's ideal of beauty as you want. You don't actually need to have 50 Charisma to look like Aphrodite. You'd need a Bluff, or maybe Perform(acting) or Disguise, check to pull the image together and get others to believe it.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Summoning can be used to service clients. Hey, it's no more morally questionable than using them as death trap monkeys....

Polymorphing and shape-changing magic unleashes all sorts of possibilities/horrors. Like if you care about the actual race/gender/age of the person you're having relations with. Cross-species kinks also are made very easy.

Divinations, combined with illusions or transmutations, can be used to peer into someone's mind and truly make their ultimate fantasies a reality.

Enchantments...continue to be used for all the squicky mind-rape stuff that's been discussed endlessly already.

Cloning/Schism/etc... can be used to literally **** yourself.

And yet, despite all this freaky stuff being possible with core spells....not one option for birth control, even in the WotC splats. Priorities.

[ryu]

Summoning can be used to service clients. Hey, it's no more morally questionable than using them as death trap monkeys....

Polymorphing and shape-changing magic unleashes all sorts of possibilities/horrors. Like if you care about the actual race/gender/age of the person you're having relations with. Cross-species kinks also are made very easy.

Divinations, combined with illusions or transmutations, can be used to peer into someone's mind and truly make their ultimate fantasies a reality.

Enchantments...continue to be used for all the squicky mind-rape stuff that's been discussed endlessly already.

Cloning/Schism/etc... can be used to literally **** yourself.

And yet, despite all this freaky stuff being possible with core spells....not one option for birth control, even in the WotC splats. Priorities.

Bestow curse infertility.

[Telonius]

And yet, despite all this freaky stuff being possible with core spells....not one option for birth control, even in the WotC splats. Priorities.

... Iron Heart Surge?

(I am a horrible, horrible person).

[StreamOfTheSky]

Bestow curse infertility.

Ah right. That was an option listed in BoVD, I believe. My bad, wasn't thinking of the book of ultimate evil when mentioning that for some reason. Not sure why it didn't cross my mind.


... Iron Heart Surge?

(I am a horrible, horrible person).

You're a hilarious person. :smallbiggrin:

[ryu]

... Iron Heart Surge?

(I am a horrible, horrible person).

You get ALL of my approval.:smallamused:

[Brookshw]

Bestow curse infertility.

Bestow curse impotency

Edit: Also the orgy rules (http://www.headinjurytheater.com/article95.htm) might come out again (near the bottom of the page)

[veti]

Summoning can be used to service clients. Hey, it's no more morally questionable than using them as death trap monkeys....

Polymorphing and shape-changing magic unleashes all sorts of possibilities/horrors. Like if you care about the actual race/gender/age of the person you're having relations with. Cross-species kinks also are made very easy.

Polymorph duration - 1 minute/level. I don't mean to brag, but really... I think the actual race/gender/age of the other party would still be relevant.


And yet, despite all this freaky stuff being possible with core spells....not one option for birth control, even in the WotC splats. Priorities.

Back in 1e AD&D, there were a number of spells/effects that 'Aged' either the caster or the subject. Mostly these were very high-level useful effects (Resurrection, Restoration, Wish etc.), which explained why these effects were incredibly expensive to buy. But one exception - often ignored, I think - was: being subject to a 'Haste' spell would age all the subjects by one year.

When you cast that on a pregnant subject, the results were - dramatic.

[Petrocorus]

I'm pretty sure a society open-minded about sex would have created common wondrous item (periapt or amulet) that make the wearer immune to STD and unable to get pregnant or get someone pregnant. And it should not even used only by prostitute or their customer.

And, in actuality, the existence of such means of protection would probably tend to make the society more free-minded about it. The same way that contraception and modern-made condoms help the western society to become more opened IRL.

Given how everyday magic is common in settings like Eberron, that probably exist there. The splatbooks just forget to mention it. Obviously, this would not be available for every commoner, but it should not be so costful. After all, what would be the price of a Bestow Curse + repeated Remove Disease + the Remove Curse for when the prostitute want to have kids compared to such an item.

[deuxhero]

I think anyone rich enough for magic is just going to get a personal Simulacrum (Under 1500 GP for a 1HD human for the components and price of casting).

A cleric 5 madam (as suggested earlier) could be reasonable for a higher end brothel depending on the magic level.

[Jeff the Green]

I think anyone rich enough for magic is just going to get a personal Simulacrum (Under 1500 GP for a 1HD human for the components and price of casting).

A cleric 5 madam (as suggested earlier) could be reasonable for a higher end brothel depending on the magic level.

That seems... unpleasant, given that simulacrum are partially made of snow and ice. No thanks.

[Chronos]

One point to keep in mind is that most prostitutes are in the industry because they're desperate for cash. Your typical streetwalker isn't remotely going to be able to afford any of these magic items. High-end escorts might, but that's just going to end up driving an even sharper wedge between the haves and the have-nots.

[BWR]

One of my players did ask me once if Remove Curse worked for abortions.
I can see some clerics and paladins of certain gods accepting or even approving of prostitutiion under certain circumstances, especially if it's the "I need someone to talk to and make me feel good about my life" sort of customer.
Sacred prostitution was (possibly) a thing, after all. Nice thing about paladins is that they are immune to disease and I would definitely allow them to avoid pregnancy if their patron wanted them to avoid it, and curative magic would be free for all clergy and temple prostitutes.

Sex bots constructs would be perfect for all sorts of things. Make them look good, program them in a certain way and use to your heart's content. It's just a really fancy dildo/Dutch wife so no moral problems using it unless you have gods who really worry about masturbation.

Oh, and Evard's private version of the Black Tentacles is highly sought after by everyone, I should think

[Petrocorus]

Polymorph duration - 1 minute/level. I don't mean to brag, but really...

I don't think you're bragging there, Polymorph would be impractical. Alter Self OTOH. That mean that prostitute would need some UMD. Which is not such a problem since Rogue or Bard or (Generic) Expert would be the obvious classes for them.

This thread is kinda funny for me, i was reading the ECS this week, and i was thinking about the concept of a former changeling prostitute turned adventurer as a PC.



When you cast that on a pregnant subject, the results were - dramatic.

Wait.. that was actually described in the rules?

[ryu]

Bestow curse impotency

Edit: Also the orgy rules (http://www.headinjurytheater.com/article95.htm) might come out again (near the bottom of the page)

That defeats the purpose of the exercise. No babies sure, but no actual entertainment.

[veti]

Wait.. that was actually described in the rules?

No, but the effects of 'Haste' were. And it was an area-effect spell, so whichever way you look at it, both the mother and the fetus would be affected.

It wasn't automatically bad. If you had a competent and alert cleric on hand, the result was a very quick birth. Painful, of course, but then they always are, and the important thing here is 'quick'. To say nothing of skipping the horribly uncomfortable late months of pregnancy.

[Petrocorus]

One point to keep in mind is that most prostitutes are in the industry because they're desperate for cash. Your typical streetwalker isn't remotely going to be able to afford any of these magic items. High-end escorts might, but that's just going to end up driving an even sharper wedge between the haves and the have-nots.
The streetwalker, no. But the brothel's madam, yes. But once again, a custom wondrous item would probably be more cost efficient on the long run.


One of my players did ask me once if Remove Curse worked for abortions.

You mean your player see pregnancy as a magical curse?



I can see some clerics and paladins of certain gods accepting or even approving of prostitutiion under certain circumstances, especially if it's the "I need someone to talk to and make me feel good about my life" sort of customer.

That remind me of the Beta Colony in the Vorkosigan Saga, where a psychology degree is required to work as a prostitute.



Oh, and Evard's private version of the Black Tentacles is highly sought after by everyone, I should think
Do you mean this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0020.html)?

[Jeff the Green]

One point to keep in mind is that most prostitutes are in the industry because they're desperate for cash. Your typical streetwalker isn't remotely going to be able to afford any of these magic items. High-end escorts might, but that's just going to end up driving an even sharper wedge between the haves and the have-nots.

Very true. Thirty minutes of alter self is 90 GP from a wand (60 from a caster). That's... a lot of money for most people. Like 14% of a skilled (but not masterful) worker's yearly income. So unless there are a lot of changeling sex workers there won't be a difference for average prostitutes.

[Necroticplague]

One point to keep in mind is that most prostitutes are in the industry because they're desperate for cash. Your typical streetwalker isn't remotely going to be able to afford any of these magic items. High-end escorts might, but that's just going to end up driving an even sharper wedge between the haves and the have-nots.

That doesn't mean you end up with a bigger gap, it changes the way things normally work. Because an individual streetwalker couldn't afford these things, it would mean that prostitutes would operate in groups out of start-up consideration. Thus, a streetwalker system moves to make way for a bordello-based system of prostitution.

Actually, thinking about it, the most likely workers would be low-level wizards paying there way through wizard college. Several of the spells that would be useful for this are self only, so it would be logical for the caster to perform acts directly.

[Fax Celestis]

Very true. Thirty minutes of alter self is 90 GP from a wand (60 from a caster). That's... a lot of money for most people. Like 14% of a skilled (but not masterful) worker's yearly income. So unless there are a lot of changeling sex workers there won't be a difference for average prostitutes.

Don't use wands, use eternal wands. They're functionally identical for price, but are usable twice a day for forever and as such will eventually pay for themselves. So like any other industry, you need some invesent up front but you'll get it back eventually. Since you're not paying per charge, youcan actually charge less per…client and still pay it of before it wears out (aka never).

[Coidzor]

Why does evocation suck? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=332177), appropriately enough.

Ahh, that explains it. I hadn't bothered to go into it, since I expected another Monkday sort of thread.

[Brookshw]

That defeats the purpose of the exercise. No babies sure, but no actual entertainment.

Not in the slightest, the more you change what would normally in a nonmagic world be expected, the more reason to include in it ways of how people might respond, including antagonistic actions.

[ryu]

Ahh, that explains it. I hadn't bothered to go into it, since I expected another Monkday sort of thread.

Came out of someone presenting contingency as a reason to care about evocation. I countered with craft contingent spell being better in every way and doesn't require taking evocation. They brought up crafting XP. I countered again with my standard ambrosia farming brothels and here we are.

[deuxhero]

That seems... unpleasant, given that simulacrum are partially made of snow and ice. No thanks.

Note the "reverts" to snow part. It's magic and doesn't feel like snow when alive (i'm sure it would mention characters that touch it notice it isn't real if such were true).

Plus alchemists in PF get a version that's more of an animated and shaped flesh thing.

[Coidzor]

Not in the slightest, the more you change what would normally in a nonmagic world be expected, the more reason to include in it ways of how people might respond, including antagonistic actions.

So... you're bringing it up as a punishment that anti-prostitution groups dole out to those they can get their hands on that frequent brothels?

[ryu]

So... you're bringing it up as a punishment that anti-prostitution groups dole out to those they can get their hands on that frequent brothels?

And the first group that I would exterminate on principle even if there was no economic reason to do it?

[StreamOfTheSky]

Polymorph duration - 1 minute/level. I don't mean to brag, but really... I think the actual race/gender/age of the other party would still be relevant.

Many polymorph effects last longer. Alter Self was one example. PAO can last permanently. Plus, there's Extend, Persistent, etc...

Higher level spell effects are expensive, of course. But if you're rich enough and want it....I mean cripes, in real life rich people buy 90k golden toilets and other crazy wastes of money. It's not that far-fetched.

[Gemini476]

Came out of someone presenting contingency as a reason to care about evocation. I countered with craft contingent spell being better in every way and doesn't require taking evocation. They brought up crafting XP. I countered again with my standard ambrosia farming brothels and here we are.

Speaking of which, that's a thing to remember. If you make a magic brothel, you need to make sure that the cost per client is cheaper than Nippleclamps of Masochism+Eternity of Torture+Dispel Magic. Maybe -Liquid Joy as well, I suppose.

[Necroticplague]

Speaking of which, that's a thing to remember. If you make a magic brothel, you need to make sure that the cost per client is cheaper than Nippleclamps of Masochism+Eternity of Torture+Dispel Magic. Maybe -Liquid Joy as well, I suppose.

It's Exquisite Pain, not Masochism.

Plus, if your trying that trick, a permanent symbol of pain is better since you can have one be used by multiple people. And re-used, most importantly.

[StreamOfTheSky]

It's Exquisite Pain, not Masochism.

Well, you'd think one would have to be masochistic to refer to it as exquisite pain.

[Petrocorus]

I countered again with my standard ambrosia farming brothels and here we are.

I still not understand how it works technically? How do you cast the spell on customer with a A day casting time?

[Necroticplague]

I still not understand how it works technically? How do you cast the spell on customer with a A day casting time?

Tricks to get it cast in less time.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Well, you'd think one would have to be masochistic to refer to it as exquisite pain.

I'm pretty sure the nipple clamps are a continuous item of Masochism >_>.

[Gemini476]

It's Exquisite Pain, not Masochism.

Plus, if your trying that trick, a permanent symbol of pain is better since you can have one be used by multiple people. And re-used, most importantly.

Ah, yes, right. It requires the Masochism spell, which is probably what confused me.

Also, EoT gives more pleasure than a Symbol of Pain does - SoP+NoEP might be argued to be inferior to a brothel, but Eternity of Torture would render the subject senseless with pleasure.

It's a bit expensive, but then that's what you'd expect from a high-class establishment.

[ryu]

Ah, yes, right. It requires the Masochism spell, which is probably what confused me.

Also, EoT gives more pleasure than a Symbol of Pain does - SoP+NoEP might be argued to be inferior to a brothel, but Eternity of Torture would render the subject senseless with pleasure.

It's a bit expensive, but then that's what you'd expect from a high-class establishment.

Considering both ventures would probably end up making me money either way? Brothels are funnier than masochism hangouts in my opinion.

As for the other guy asking how to make it work: Simply have the device set to cast at the same time every day. You only need a target present for the spell when completing casting as that's when you pick targets there's a subject for the trap to detect. That's what's fun about targeting rules. While a spill fizzles without a target at no point is it stated that the target actually has to be present throughout the entire casting time.

[Bullet06320]

simple prestidigitation for cleaning and flavoring your prostitute to taste, and cleaning the mess up afterward

Sune Firehair is the Goddess of love, beauty and lust in the Forgotten Realms is fine with prostitution, I think its in one of the novels

and ive seen rules for herbalist making different plant extracts for stds, birthcontrol and such, maybe BoEF or Forggotten Realms maybe, not sure where I saw it

[Brookshw]

So... you're bringing it up as a punishment that anti-prostitution groups dole out to those they can get their hands on that frequent brothels?

Well, yes. If were figuring out the responses we'd be foolish to ignore the obvious. If you have a reason to ignore then please share

[Gavinfoxx]

Changelings would be sought after... and other creatures that are more badass versions of changelings. Like Phasms. Just look at the Phasm's stats!!

[Coidzor]

Well, yes. If were figuring out the responses we'd be foolish to ignore the obvious. If you have a reason to ignore then please share

Then you should have put forth what you were on about from the start rather than having it taken this much verbal tennis to get that basic point established. :smalltongue:

The main thing is that it seems like a lot of trouble for a lot of small fry, also overkill yet relatively easily reversible at the same time. Seems more plausible to attack the institution itself.

[Petrocorus]

BTW, maybe we could make a list of the gods who would be fine with it, like Sune.



As for the other guy asking how to make it work: Simply have the device set to cast at the same time every day. You only need a target present for the spell when completing casting as that's when you pick targets there's a subject for the trap to detect. That's what's fun about targeting rules. While a spill fizzles without a target at no point is it stated that the target actually has to be present throughout the entire casting time.

So, you're saying that the target need to be there only at the end of the casting? And what device do you use? It must be in touch with the target.

[Brookshw]

Then you should have put forth what you were on about from the start rather than having it taken this much verbal tennis to get that basic point established. :smalltongue:
.

I hope you forgive I post mainly from my phone.

[Necroticplague]

So, you're saying that the target need to be there only at the end of the casting? And what device do you use? It must be in touch with the target.

The beds are enchanted as boon traps/wondrous architecture.

[ryu]

The beds are enchanted as boon traps/wondrous architecture.

That's the easy way anyway. Alternatively shenanigans with making a magical trap shaped into the cloths the lady working is wearing. Either works.

[Tarlek Flamehai]

I will just comment that in the Forgotten Realms the Festhalls (not Feasthalls) of Sharess are very popular with the amorous parishoners.

[SoraWolf7]

Pretty sure one thing Artificers can do is make Masterwork tools of self-pleasure. That's cheap and often needed, right?

I guess if you wanted to kill someone, cast Delay Poison on the lady of the evening, apply your poison of choice on her somehow, and then pay for a night on the town.

Anything else is highly inappropriate or already discussed. Honestly, if you want weird examples, go google Oglaf (Warning, 18+ only).

[Sith_Happens]

And yet, despite all this freaky stuff being possible with core spells....not one option for birth control, even in the WotC splats. Priorities.

Cassig root and nararoot, in FRCS. 100% effective contraceptive herbs, the former for men (1 gp per dose, lasts 1d4+1 days) and the latter for women (1 sp per dose, lasts 2d4+4 days).

Everyone discussing operating costs might note that the above are far cheaper than Bestow Curse.

Similarly, I don't think there's any nonmagical disease in the game with a DC higher than 20, which means anyone with four ranks in Heal, Skill Focus, a Healer's Kit, and a +1 Wisdom bonus can cure any of them in a matter of days and prevent any and all symptoms until that point.

[ryu]

Heal checks being relevant?

*audible gasp*

[Fax Celestis]

Cassig root and nararoot, in FRCS. 100% effective contraceptive herbs, the former for men (1 gp per dose, lasts 1d4+1 days) and the latter for women (1 sp per dose, lasts 2d4+4 days).

Everyone discussing operating costs might note that the above are far cheaper than Bestow Curse.

Similarly, I don't think there's any nonmagical disease in the game with a DC higher than 20, which means anyone with four ranks in Heal, Skill Focus, a Healer's Kit, and a +1 Wisdom bonus can cure any of them in a matter of days and prevent any and all symptoms until that point.

Male doses become cost-effective for sterility at 150 doses, or 150d4+150 days, or on average 1.43 years. Female doses become cost-effective at *quick math* that can't be right *double check math* ...just shy of 40 years.

[Vogonjeltz]

That's the easy way anyway. Alternatively shenanigans with making a magical trap shaped into the cloths the lady working is wearing. Either works.

Magic traps are immobile and generally required to be part of the structure I think.

But really that's a side issue. Who would be wearing clothes?

[ryu]

Male doses become cost-effective for sterility at 150 doses, or 150d4+150 days, or on average 1.43 years. Female doses become cost-effective at *quick math* that can't be right *double check math* ...just shy of 40 years.

Don't you mean cost ineffective? The bestow curse is permanent and only needs to be cast once. These remedies must be repeatedly applied.

Edit: First off that was an optional alternative for clients who don't want a bed/want something that isn't a bed to be the scene.

Second off do not underestimate the amount of silly I'm willing to undertake to make something happen in D&D. Seriously just don't.

[Gavinfoxx]

Magic traps are immobile and generally required to be part of the structure I think.

Which is why they can't be placed on the locking mechanism of a small chest.

Oh, wait...

[Fax Celestis]

Don't you mean cost ineffective? The bestow curse is permanent and only needs to be cast once. These remedies must be repeatedly applied.

I do. Feel free to replace "dose" with "curse" or "effective" with "ineffective", whichever floats your goat.

[Coidzor]

Male doses become cost-effective for sterility at 150 doses, or 150d4+150 days, or on average 1.43 years. Female doses become cost-effective at *quick math* that can't be right *double check math* ...just shy of 40 years.

37 years and 6 months, yeah. Going purely with the average instead of taking a dose every 7th day for guaranteed coverage to hedge against minimum rolls of 6.

150 gp = bestow curse cost

1 sp for 9 days of contraception(average).

x10

10 sp = 90 days of contraception or 3 months.

1 gp = 10 sp = 3 months

x10

10 gp = 30 months

x5

50 gp = 150 months

x3

150 gp = 450 months

450/12 = 37.5 years

So, taking humans as a baseline here... Let's say women become fertile at 12 and start menopause at 50. Further, let's just say that no one is having sex until after they're 15 and have reached adulthood in D&D land. That's 35 years of potentially sexually active fertility.

Better value for a human woman to use the root then, especially if she stops using it in order to have children, since it costs her nothing to stop using the root in comparison to the 150 gp cost of a remove curse.

Alternatively, if we just go by the tables for when Old Age begins, that's 53 instead of 50, for 38 years, which is just 6 months past the tipping point.

Elves would then have 153 years, Dwarves 148 years, Gnomes 110, Half-Elves 73, Halflings 55, and Half-Orcs 31. So, amusingly, an elf would almost pay for the cost of an automatically resetting bestow curse: infertility trap at ~612 gp.

[Vogonjeltz]

Which is why they can't be placed on the locking mechanism of a small chest.

Oh, wait...

That won't work. Refer to dungeonscape for more on boon traps and their requirements.

[nobodez]

37 years and 6 months, yeah. Going purely with the average instead of taking a dose every 7th day for guaranteed coverage to hedge against minimum rolls of 6.

150 gp = bestow curse cost

1 sp for 9 days of contraception(average).

x10

10 sp = 90 days of contraception or 3 months.

1 gp = 10 sp = 3 months

x10

10 gp = 30 months

x5

50 gp = 150 months

x3

150 gp = 450 months

450/12 = 37.5 years

So, taking humans as a baseline here... Let's say women become fertile at 12 and start menopause at 50. Further, let's just say that no one is having sex until after they're 15 and have reached adulthood in D&D land. That's 35 years of potentially sexually active fertility.

Better value for a human woman to use the root then, especially if she stops using it in order to have children, since it costs her nothing to stop using the root in comparison to the 150 gp cost of a remove curse.

Alternatively, if we just go by the tables for when Old Age begins, that's 53 instead of 50, for 38 years, which is just 6 months past the tipping point.

Elves would then have 153 years, Dwarves 148 years, Gnomes 110, Half-Elves 73, Halflings 55, and Half-Orcs 31. So, amusingly, an elf would almost pay for the cost of an automatically resetting bestow curse: infertility trap at ~612 gp.

It's even better than that, since a woman only needs to be infertile for a short part of the time, since she's naturally infertile during the rest of her cycle. Really, she only needs one dose a cycle, which means that she only needs 494 doses over her entire fertile period (assuming a human).

[ryu]

It's even better than that, since a woman only needs to be infertile for a short part of the time, since she's naturally infertile during the rest of her cycle. Really, she only needs one dose a cycle, which means that she only needs 494 doses over her entire fertile period (assuming a human).

That will work most of the time but isn't guaranteed entirely. Also for heaven's sake this stuff costs silver pieces per does out of operation funds. Do you really think I would skimp on something so insignificant?

[nyjastul69]

I think one could create a market for virtual prostitution through Illusory magic. No muck, no fuss, no reality. The seeming pleasure would still be there. Just willingly fail your save and it's all good.

[ryu]

I think one could create a market for virtual prostitution through Illusory magic. No muck, no fuss, no reality. The seeming pleasure would still be there. Just willingly fail your save and it's all good.

I believe that would fall under pornography not prostitution. A bit pedantic, but still a point to make.

[nyjastul69]

I believe that would fall under pornography not prostitution. A bit pedantic, but still a point to make.

Or maybe just erotica. Fair enough though.

[Honest Tiefling]

Shouldn't there be some illusions with the ability to delude touch. All you gotta do is convince people to just believe in the extremely hot person who wants to do them is real and they'll feel great! It'll probably be the one industry killed by low self-esteem, not boosted by it.

[Maginomicon]

If anything, age of consent is an even fuzzier possibility in dnd. After all, different races age up at different rates. A fully able to consent goblin or Orc is an early pubescent elf at best.

Not only that, but (correct me if I'm wrong) the adulthood rating represents physical maturity, not mental maturity. A 10 year old elf isn't actually still in diapers even if by lifespan comparison they should be. It's likely that races mature mentally at the rate of a human unless the race's age of adulthood is less than a human, in which case you scale your rate of maturity down to fit. For example, Thri-kreen reach adulthood in 6 years and die at 29 at the latest. They mentally mature, clearly, by age 6 at the latest. You could use the race's racial wisdom bonus (if any) to have reason to skew this one way or another.


I think one could create a market for virtual prostitution through Illusory magic. No muck, no fuss, no reality. The seeming pleasure would still be there. Just willingly fail your save and it's all good.

The Book of Erotic Fantasy has a spell that does exactly that.

[CIDE]

Even ignoring the fact constructs are usually pretty pricey aside from a wax golem which ones would even be worth the effort here?

[Gemini476]

Even ignoring the fact constructs are usually pretty pricey aside from a wax golem which ones would even be worth the effort here?

I'm not sure if any of them would be, really. Although it depends on what you want them to do, if you know what I mean.
*CLANK* *CLANK* *CLANK* *CLANK*

[The Insanity]

I think one could create a market for virtual prostitution through Illusory magic. No muck, no fuss, no reality. The seeming pleasure would still be there. Just willingly fail your save and it's all good.
Or infuse it with shadow, making it quasi-real.

[Necroticplague]

Not only that, but (correct me if I'm wrong) the adulthood rating represents physical maturity, not mental maturity. A 10 year old elf isn't actually still in diapers even if by lifespan comparison they should be. It's likely that races mature mentally at the rate of a human unless the race's age of adulthood is less than a human, in which case you scale your rate of maturity down to fit. For example, Thri-kreen reach adulthood in 6 years and die at 29 at the latest. They mentally mature, clearly, by age 6 at the latest. You could use the race's racial wisdom bonus (if any) to have reason to skew this one way or another.

Your three-kin example seems to agree with me, but the rest doesn't appear to.

The rules for aging disagree with the idea that mental age occurs along similar rates among everything longer than humans. After all, long-lived races appropriately don't get the +mental representing growing wiser with age for a longer time, indicating their mental growth is indeed slowed down, just like their physical age is.

[Tarlek Flamehai]

Even ignoring the fact constructs are usually pretty pricey aside from a wax golem which ones would even be worth the effort here?

In Faerun there's a hermit wizard running around with two CH18 female flesh golems.

[Kesnit]

And yet, despite all this freaky stuff being possible with core spells....not one option for birth control, even in the WotC splats. Priorities.

There is a spell in BoEF that prevents pregnancy.

[Dusk Eclipse]

The BoEF is 3rd party though.

[Necroticplague]

The BoEF is 3rd party though.

That's a bit of a thorny issue. Yes, it was made by someone who wasn't wotc, but they did have official approval, making it much like dragon mag in term of legality.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I wasn't aware of that....

[SiuiS]

... Iron Heart Surge?

(I am a horrible, horrible person).

Well played!

Prestidigitation. It can turn gruel into a Rose. I'm sure it can turn seminal fluid into, I dunno. Saline?

[Vhaidara]

Or infuse it with shadow, making it quasi-real.

Isn't there a way to get shadow illusions to be more than100% real? "This fake woman is 120% real! That's right, she's 20% better than the real thing!"

[Dusk Eclipse]

Shadowcraft mages... and some FR feats that are tied to Shar IIRC.

[Talya]

I think what would happen with deities is that most of them would have vastly different dogmas on the subject dependent on portfolio. Some may even approve fully.

May?

Most would either have no opinion.

Many others would have sacramental prostitutes in their temple. (Which used to be a very common thing in many religions - sex as a sacrament certainly works.) In fact, this would be most common among goodly deities (Sune, Sharess, Hanali Celanil, etc.) - although certain kinks would be accessible through darker ones (Loviatar and her obsession with pain, for instance. That said, I'm sure there's an LG temple of Ilmater somewhere with a pain-dispensing dominatrix.)


The BoEF is 3rd party though.


Pathfinder has "Night Tea" (alchemical.) I believe it also has a male contraceptive, though it has side effects.

[Necroticplague]

Isn't there a way to get shadow illusions to be more than100% real? "This fake woman is 120% real! That's right, she's 20% better than the real thing!"

Yes, but it involves bringing small peices of the plane of shadow to the prime. Not very conducive for lovemaking.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Considering the amount of mixed bloodlines in a "standard" D&D setting, I don't think that would be a problem, heck that is one way to explain where Shadow Planetouched (Shadar Kai I think) might come from.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Night Tea has side effects, too, since it's technically a poison. It can only be used in low doses.

[nyjastul69]

That's a bit of a thorny issue. Yes, it was made by someone who wasn't wotc, but they did have official approval, making it much like dragon mag in term of legality.

This is not correct. The BoEF was published by a third party and in no way supported by WotC. WotC actually changed the d20STL so that this book could not use that particular license and carry the d20 logo. It was written, in part, by Gwendolyn F.M. Kestrel whom has several WotC splat book credits. I don't know if she was a freelancer or a WotC employee for those splats. Maybe that's what you were thinking of.

[Fax Celestis]

This is not correct. The BoEF was published by a third party and in no way supported by WotC. WotC actually changed the d20STL so that this book could not use that particular license and carry the d20 logo. It was written, in part, by Gwendolyn F.M. Kestrel whom has several WotC splat book credits. I don't know if she was a freelancer or a WotC employee for those splats. Maybe that's what you were thinking of.

Gwendolyn F. M. Kestrel, as far as I am aware, has never been an actual WotC employee and instead has freelanced several books and a series of articles for them.

AFAIK, she's also married to Andy Collins.

[Zubrowka74]

I'm surprised no one mentioned Calistria (http://pathfinder.wikia.com/wiki/Calistria) (from PF) yet. You know, with the sacred prostitutes and all... Funny thing she's a favorite amongst elves. Similar to how elves are in The Witcher.

[nyjastul69]

Gwendolyn F. M. Kestrel, as far as I am aware, has never been an actual WotC employee and instead has freelanced several books and a series of articles for them.

AFAIK, she's also married to Andy Collins.

Um... yeah, that's what I said. Thanks for the bit about her relationship with Andy Collins though. That's a bit I was unaware of.

[Talya]

I'm curious what changed about the d20STL that prevented the book from carrying the d20 logo?



I'm surprised no one mentioned Calistria (http://pathfinder.wikia.com/wiki/Calistria) (from PF) yet. You know, with the sacred prostitutes and all... Funny thing she's a favorite amongst elves. Similar to how elves are in The Witcher.

I'm only vaguely aware of her. I play mostly PF these days, but in non-PF settings (usually still Faerun).

[Fax Celestis]

Um... yeah, that's what I said. Thanks for the bit about her relationship with Andy Collins though. That's a bit I was unaware of.

I was just confirming, is all.

[Petrocorus]

That's the easy way anyway. Alternatively shenanigans with making a magical trap shaped into the cloths the lady working is wearing. Either works.

And the customer don't notice the ambrosia going out from him? Heck, BTW, where the ambrosia does come from exactly?


37 years and 6 months, yeah. Going purely with the average instead of taking a dose every 7th day for guaranteed coverage to hedge against minimum rolls of 6.

"whee, bad math"

I myself got:

1500 sp * 9 days = 13500 days
1350 / 364,25 = 37,06 years

If we say that the human woman need only 1 dose per cycle, i.e 1 dose per 28 days because 2d4 +4 covers the 4-5 days of fertility per cycle of the average human woman, that would do:

1500 * 28 = 42 000 days
42 000 / 365,25 = 115,30 years

That cover more than the 40 years of fertility of a human woman. I don't know for the other races, but Nymphology or BoEF have charts for them. 3rd party obviously.



So, taking humans as a baseline here... Let's say women become fertile at 12 and start menopause at 50. Further, let's just say that no one is having sex until after they're 15 and have reached adulthood in D&D land.
Judging by what i know of medieval / antique time, saying no one is having sex before 15 is much optimistic. And if we judge by what we can see in our world by now...
Not to mention that prostitution was (and still is, sadly) linked to slavery. Slaves were often prostituted as soon as they were physically formed. Let's not even talk about the instance when they were much sooner.



Elves would then have 153 years, Dwarves 148 years, Gnomes 110, Half-Elves 73, Halflings 55, and Half-Orcs 31. So, amusingly, an elf would almost pay for the cost of an automatically resetting bestow curse: infertility trap at ~612 gp.

BTW, i remember that elves were living much more longer in previous edition. Does someone know why it changed?



http://www.lesgoblinstoxiques.ca/

Just tried the link, and it doesn't work?

[Talya]

Judging by what i know of medieval / antique time, saying no one is having sex before 15 is much optimistic.

You don't need to go back to antiquity.

We're under this misconception in the modern world that our children aren't sexual beings until the magical age of consent. In reality, they're having sexual contact of some sort, typically from soon after those urges start, between 12 and 16 for most kids. This isn't a new "problem" inherent to modern society - this is a universal truth of human existence from long before we crawled down from the trees. Welcome to nature.

[Urpriest]

May?

Most would either have no opinion.

Many others would have sacramental prostitutes in their temple. (Which used to be a very common thing in many religions - sex as a sacrament certainly works.) In fact, this would be most common among goodly deities (Sune, Sharess, Hanali Celanil, etc.) - although certain kinks would be accessible through darker ones (Loviatar and her obsession with pain, for instance. That said, I'm sure there's an LG temple of Ilmater somewhere with a pain-dispensing dominatrix.)

I had the impression that they contracted that sort of thing out to Loviatar normally, as part of their symbiotic relationship.

[nyjastul69]

I'm curious what changed about the d20STL that prevented the book from carrying the d20 logo?




I'm going from memory here, but I believe they added some sort of 'standards' clause that was not previously present. If I have time when I get home I'll see if I can dig up more specific info on that. I gotta prep for my CoC game tonight so I may not have the time.


I was just confirming, is all.

Yeah, as I reread what I posted it comes across as a bit aggressive. I apologize, that was not my intent. Thank you for the confirmation.

[Petrocorus]

You don't need to go back to antiquity.

We're under this misconception in the modern world that our children aren't sexual beings until the magical age of consent. In reality, they're having sexual contact of some sort, typically from soon after those urges start, between 12 and 16 for most kids. This isn't a new "problem" inherent to modern society - this is a universal truth of human existence from long before we crawled down from the trees. Welcome to nature.

Yeah, that what i meant by "our world by now..." but i didn't want to be more specific.
I'm a high school teacher and believe you me what i heard and see sometimes are quite astonishing, to say the least.

[Zubrowka74]

Just tried the link, and it doesn't work?

Ah, yes, the project kind of fizzled out and the collective didn't want to pay for hosting the archives. The facebook page is still there but without the blog content. Everyone got involved in their own side projects. I somewhat participate in a spinoof but as of now it doesn't include RPGs. I'll update my sig, thanks for the catch!

[GungHo]

Unseen Servant sheds new light on the concept of "getting a stranger".

[nyjastul69]

I'm curious what changed about the d20STL that prevented the book from carrying the d20 logo?


I'm a liar. I found some time at work. Please don't tell my boss. :smallwink:

Here (http://www.classicmarvelforever.com/phorum_archive/read.php?3,12738,12770) is some info about the changes to the d20STL.

[Petrocorus]

Ah, yes, the project kind of fizzled out and the collective didn't want to pay for hosting the archives. The facebook page is still there but without the blog content. Everyone got involved in their own side projects. I somewhat participate in a spinoof but as of now it doesn't include RPGs. I'll update my sig, thanks for the catch!

OK, thanks. I'll try to lurk a bit on the FB page.

On a related note, is it common to spell goblins in French "Goblins" instead of "Gobelins"? I'm sorry but it bugs me a little.

[Talya]

Yeah, that what i meant by "our world by now..." but i didn't want to be more specific.
I'm a high school teacher and believe you me what i heard and see sometimes are quite astonishing, to say the least.

I'm not astonished at all.

I'm 40 years old now. I was having sex at 14. I was lucky I didn't run into issues because my parents never prepared me for this, but such things didn't traumatize me or damage me for life. It's natural. We make the mistake of trying to shelter our children from knowledge about growing up rather than preparing them and making them responsible for growing up.

As a mother of two, I'm trying to take a different approach with my own kids. My oldest is 11. He's going to know how to be responsible and while he won't be judged as bad for doing what comes naturally, he will need to be responsible for ensuring that the safety of himself and his partner(s).

[Petrocorus]

I'm 40 years old now. I was having sex at 14. I was lucky I didn't run into issues because my parents never prepared me for this, but such things didn't traumatize me or damage me for life. It's natural. We make the mistake of trying to shelter our children from knowledge about growing up rather than preparing them and making them responsible for growing up.

Believe you me, sex at 14 is nothing compare to what i know here.



As a mother of two, I'm trying to take a different approach with my own kids. My oldest is 11. He's going to know how to be responsible and while he won't be judged as bad for doing what comes naturally, he will need to be responsible for ensuring that the safety of himself and his partner(s).
This is the good way to do it. But, once again, not every parent do it this way. Many parents just don't talk at all to their kids.

[Fax Celestis]

Unseen Servant sheds new light on the concept of "getting a stranger".

This forum needs a like button.

[WhatThePhysics]

Unity Wine (Player's Guide to Eberron p.73) would be available at every brothel worth its salt.

[Petrocorus]

This forum needs a like button.

I wholeheartedly agree!

[Zubrowka74]

OK, thanks. I'll try to lurk a bit on the FB page.

On a related note, is it common to spell goblins in French "Goblins" instead of "Gobelins"? I'm sorry but it bugs me a little.

Legitimate question! In fact the typo is part of the gimmick. It's named after a Comic-book/RPG/MTG store where the founding members passed their time during their teens. They kept the english word in the french name as a tribute.

The comic-book related show/blog is called Entre les cases (http://entrelescases.com/).

[Honest Tiefling]

I'm not astonished at all.

[snip]

As a mother of two, I'm trying to take a different approach with my own kids. My oldest is 11. He's going to know how to be responsible and while he won't be judged as bad for doing what comes naturally, he will need to be responsible for ensuring that the safety of himself and his partner(s).

While I have no problems with this style of parenting, I think it might be best to generally NOT to have it at the gaming table. I've gotten squicked out by such before at games and I have little interest in delving in such there. So a way to sidestep it would be fantastic in my book.

[Necroticplague]

While we're talking about mores complicated even further by fantasy abilities, how would necrophilia be? At least in the context of the undead. Are a stiff corpse and a moving one in the same place morally? What about the mindless vs. minded nature of it? What if the donor gave permission for their corpse to be animated for use in such a way?

[Cirrylius]

A cleric to cast Lesser Planar Ally at 1 hr/level on a Succubus with Perform (sex) maxed out, and a voluntarily failed Will save on an Elixer of Love

Better part of 4k gp per visit, but still. Best. Strange. Ever.


While we're talking about mores complicated even further by fantasy abilities, how would necrophilia be? At least in the context of the undead. Are a stiff corpse and a moving one in the same place morally? What about the mindless vs. minded nature of it? What if the donor gave permission for their corpse to be animated for use in such a way?
Well, since a mindless creature doesn't have a mind to scar, sticking it to those undead would be morally identical to regular necrophilia.

If it's not mindless, then it can choose to consent or decline, like any other creature, so the usual "crimes against loved ones and the dead" wouldn't apply.

[Socksy]

But imagine the dirty talk though

"I'm gonna introduce my Rod of Wonder to your Portable Hole... Just lemme get out my Salve of Slipperiness..."

All of the Rod puns, all of the Use Rope mentions...

I can imagine some adventurer dude wanting to combine his "Greatsword" with a girl's "Great Cleave-age".

[CIDE]

I'm not sure if any of them would be, really. Although it depends on what you want them to do, if you know what I mean.
*CLANK* *CLANK* *CLANK* *CLANK*

Fallout already did that...<.<


Or infuse it with shadow, making it quasi-real.

Win-win. A few spells out there to maybe do that...


In Faerun there's a hermit wizard running around with two CH18 female flesh golems.

Gee...I wonder why. I guess if the craft checks were that good...


Isn't there a way to get shadow illusions to be more than100% real? "This fake woman is 120% real! That's right, she's 20% better than the real thing!"


Yeah, i heard about that but never actually saw the builds for it.


Yes, but it involves bringing small peices of the plane of shadow to the prime. Not very conducive for lovemaking.

Minor technicality.


This forum needs a like button.

Yep. I've said that probably half a dozen times by now. it really does.

[Coidzor]

Judging by what i know of medieval / antique time, saying no one is having sex before 15 is much optimistic.

Not being optimistic, just a matter of simplifying in order to compare between the various fantasy races I went into without adding in guesswork or going through and determining what % of the life span fertility begins in humans and extrapolating to those other races.

As far as I was aware, I didn't make any moral judgments.


Considering the amount of mixed bloodlines in a "standard" D&D setting, I don't think that would be a problem, heck that is one way to explain where Shadow Planetouched (Shadar Kai I think) might come from.

Whoo!


Pathfinder has "Night Tea" (alchemical.) I believe it also has a male contraceptive, though it has side effects.

Bachelor Snuff. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services/herbs-oils-other-substances#TOC-Bachelor-Snuff) Makes ya yeller.

[Maginomicon]

Your three-kin example seems to agree with me, but the rest doesn't appear to.

The rules for aging disagree with the idea that mental age occurs along similar rates among everything longer than humans. After all, long-lived races appropriately don't get the +mental representing growing wiser with age for a longer time, indicating their mental growth is indeed slowed down, just like their physical age is.There's a big difference between mental maturity and becoming wise (not wisdom the stat, but the notion of wisdom itself) through getting older. Of course the latter is going to differ by race. Mental maturity however is largely cultural unless it's forced to grow up much quicker such as with Thri-Kreen.

[SoraWolf7]

I also feel like I have to bring up Sir Bearington at this point, because I'm sure no one would willingly take a large bear to bed with them.

[ryu]

I also feel like I have to bring up Sir Bearington at this point, because I'm sure no one would willingly take a large bear to bed with them.

While I am not the type to do just that I will warn you that tempting the internet with such a challenge is dangerous and not something to be done lightly.

[Venger]

Shadowcraft mages... and some FR feats that are tied to Shar IIRC.

shadow weave, tenacious magic, pernicious magic, insidious magic. handy dandy feats for a that darn gnome.


While we're talking about mores complicated even further by fantasy abilities, how would necrophilia be? At least in the context of the undead. Are a stiff corpse and a moving one in the same place morally? What about the mindless vs. minded nature of it? What if the donor gave permission for their corpse to be animated for use in such a way?

necrophilia, rape, and the like aside, this is addressed by the church of evening glory. as long as the sex is consensual, there is canonically (in both senses of the word) a group of people who do have sex with an undead partner for fun or profit (e.g: lichloved)


I also feel like I have to bring up Sir Bearington at this point, because I'm sure no one would willingly take a large bear to bed with them.

well, that may be true in the real world where a bear's more likely to maul your face off than bang you, but in a world where you can transform into a bear, or a bear can be as intelligent (or moreso) than a normal person and the like, alongside the existence of lycanthropes and bear shifters, I think that a not only sexual but also romantic liason between bears or anthro-bears would be more present than in the real world with furries and otherkin, not less so. it'd probably be a lot more common in a scenario where the bear can talk to you you (speak with animals) be an actual partner (awaken) and thus consent and the like.

[Cirrylius]

because I'm sure no one would willingly take a large bear to bed with them.

Ooohhh, man. We had to have this discussion with a rather very dim player with a Chaotic Stupid half-Orc Fighter/Barbarian/Bear Warrior.

Long story short, it ended in my first PvP experience (sadly not the last, as the aforementioned character died in the Ghostwalk setting:smallsigh:).

[malonkey1]

There's a big difference between mental maturity and becoming wise (not wisdom the stat, but the notion of wisdom itself) through getting older. Of course the latter is going to differ by race. Mental maturity however is largely cultural unless it's forced to grow up much quicker such as with Thri-Kreen.

Weeeeeeeeeeell, yes-and-no. There's a few different ways to interpret "maturity". Generally, sexual maturity is the one on the strictest "clock", so to speak, but different species are going to progress even in that one respect at different rates (a 2-year-old dog can have puppies, a 2-year-old human? Not so much). It's not that implausible to consider that different races in D&D would have different rate of sexual maturation. For example, Elves, with their somewhat increased intelligence, would probably have larger brains, which would take longer to develop, which is the same reason we mature so much slower than other species. On the converse, a dumber orc would have a smaller brain, and thus mature more quickly. This is no hard-and-fast rule, and I'm not a biologist, but that's there.

[Sith_Happens]

Going purely with the average instead of taking a dose every 7th day for guaranteed coverage to hedge against minimum rolls of 6.

Either herb's effects can be detected with a DC 20 Heal check.


I also feel like I have to bring up Sir Bearington at this point, because I'm sure no one would willingly take a large bear to bed with them.

Sure, but remember, only one guy ever figured out that Sir Bearing was a bear and everyone else thought he was crazy.

EDIT:

maturity... Elves

According to Races of the Wild, Elves reach physical and mental maturity around age 20, and the "adulthood" age of 110 is a cultural construct somewhat akin to an age of majority.

[Clistenes]

In Faerun there's a hermit wizard running around with two CH18 female flesh golems.

Who is that wizard and in which book can I find him?

[Zetapup]

I also feel like I have to bring up Sir Bearington at this point, because I'm sure no one would willingly take a large bear to bed with them.

I guess you could say that most people would find him... unbearable :smallcool:

[Gavinfoxx]

I also feel like I have to bring up Sir Bearington at this point, because I'm sure no one would willingly take a large bear to bed with them.

Was the bear in question hit with a maximized / empowered Awakening where the dice went well? Do they have a really good personality, a keen wit, a sharp tongue (for words! gyah!)? Some people don't care about looks. Sapiosexual, it's a thing.

[Maginomicon]

Weeeeeeeeeeell, yes-and-no. There's a few different ways to interpret "maturity". Generally, sexual maturity is the one on the strictest "clock", so to speak, but different species are going to progress even in that one respect at different rates (a 2-year-old dog can have puppies, a 2-year-old human? Not so much). It's not that implausible to consider that different races in D&D would have different rate of sexual maturation. For example, Elves, with their somewhat increased intelligence, would probably have larger brains, which would take longer to develop, which is the same reason we mature so much slower than other species. On the converse, a dumber orc would have a smaller brain, and thus mature more quickly. This is no hard-and-fast rule, and I'm not a biologist, but that's there.

The context here is mental maturity is what's most important because of the notions of consent and more importantly, informed and enthusiastic assent. It doesn't matter anywhere near as much whether you're "sexually mature" compared to a typical member of your race when talking about prostitution. What matters far more is whether you have the mental faculties to understand and give informed enthusiastic assent. All I was trying to imply is that you can use the race's inherent wisdom modifier to bend the age of consent (and thus assent) one way or another.

[Lord_Gareth]

Random fun fact - elves are canonically sexually mature at age 20, but not defined as legal adults until about age 120.

[Venger]

Random fun fact - elves are canonically sexually mature at age 20, but not defined as legal adults until about age 120.

how interesting! where's the source?

[Lord_Gareth]

how interesting! where's the source?

The Complete Elf Handbook (2e) said it first, though IIRC Races of the Wild backed it up. Elves take things kinda slow, burning away years at a time at 'hobbies' and 'distractions'. One does wonder what their attitude on 'underage' sex is, considering their general chaotic alignment, but I imagine that sort of thing is frowned on until about age 60 or so.

Drow technically mature at the same rate but given their incredibly vicious death rate they're treated as societal adults a lot sooner. By an elf's standards, sleeping with Drizz't Do'urden is pedophilia. By drow standards the guy's virginity as of, oh...Servant of the Shard is downright unhealthy.

[Jeff the Green]

Random fun fact - elves are canonically sexually mature at age 20, but not defined as legal adults until about age 120.

Actually, I think 120 is just the time most are mature enough to be adventurers. In RotW it says that there are songs about a mature elf despondent over a lover's death being rejuvenated by a fling with a 20-something elf. There aren't equivalent songs of 50-year-old men having flings with 14-year-old girls in real life. So hopefully, for my stomach's sake, elves become legally adults and largely emotionally mature by their 20s.

[Coidzor]

According to Races of the Wild, Elves reach physical and mental maturity around age 20, and the "adulthood" age of 110 is a cultural construct somewhat akin to an age of majority.

Ahh, Gerontocracy!

In that case it's 243 years, which since FR at least doesn't have leap years from what I can tell, at 4 gp a year that's 972 gp.


The Complete Elf Handbook (2e) said it first, though IIRC Races of the Wild backed it up. Elves take things kinda slow, burning away years at a time at 'hobbies' and 'distractions'. One does wonder what their attitude on 'underage' sex is, considering their general chaotic alignment, but I imagine that sort of thing is frowned on until about age 60 or so.

Which gives us a discrepancy of about 10 years between that and when Elves hit adulthood by the core rules. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm#age) XD Although only a minority of elf characters would end up rolling low enough when randomly generating their starting age for it to actually come up.

[Lord_Gareth]

Actually, I think 120 is just the time most are mature enough to be adventurers. In RotW it says that there are songs about a mature elf despondent over a lover's death being rejuvenated by a fling with a 20-something elf. There aren't equivalent songs of 50-year-old men having flings with 14-year-old girls in real life. So hopefully, for my stomach's sake, elves become legally adults and largely emotionally mature by their 20s.

Given the incredible responsibility and potential lethality involved both in having sex and adventuring, I'd imagine the two are equivalent. I mean, STDs are a thing. Pregnancy is a thing. Just because it's not 4 lethal encounters a day doesn't mean that it's not something that should be taken just as seriously as murderhobo.

[ryu]

Given the incredible responsibility and potential lethality involved both in having sex and adventuring, I'd imagine the two are equivalent. I mean, STDs are a thing. Pregnancy is a thing. Just because it's not 4 lethal encounters a day doesn't mean that it's not something that should be taken just as seriously as murderhobo.

On what authority do you claim it's not four lethal encounter a day? These are elves we're talking about. Have you seen how much murder can easily happen canonically in even non-drow elven societies?

[Jeff the Green]

Given the incredible responsibility and potential lethality involved both in having sex and adventuring, I'd imagine the two are equivalent. I mean, STDs are a thing. Pregnancy is a thing. Just because it's not 4 lethal encounters a day doesn't mean that it's not something that should be taken just as seriously as murderhobo.

I'm pretty sure having sex, even pre-contraception and pre-antibiotics, doesn't count as consuming 25% of daily resources. And I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a sex act with a 50% chance of defeat, let alone death. (Plus, with elves' high magic society and low fertility, pregnancy and contraception are both less problematic than for pre-industrial humans.)

Plus, the issue for elf adventurers is, IIRC, their dilettante nature and long apprenticeships. Unless elves are all serious perfectionists when it comes to "festing," it's not going to take them that long to get the hang of it.

[QuackParker]

Come one! Come all! To the Willy Wand for all your needs and desires!

Like BBW? Well, fine customer, might I recommend Enlarge Person to do the trick? Ahh, I see, you desire the young, but dare not break those laws. Would Youthful Appearance do the trick for you? Hmmm, perhaps you might enjoy your romance above the bed rather than on it. I sell scrolls of Spider Climb and Levitation to tickle your fancy.

Or "really" want to get inside that special person in a way only magical intimacy can confer? Marionette Possession will spice up your love life guaranteed! And last, but not least, BDSM enthusiasts! Whips may excite, but they can leave quite a mark. So Resinous Skin might supply your remedy. Oh, and Richard Gere, Vermin Shape I might pleasantly surprise you.

[Arutema]

how interesting! where's the source?

Retcons Races of the Wild. (I did not find the fluff in that book well-done. I much prefer Pathfinder's take on elven aging, which says they do take 100 years to physically mature, and looks into just how gloomy that tends to make elves raised among humans.)

[Fax Celestis]

There aren't equivalent songs of 50-year-old men having flings with 14-year-old girls in real life.

No, just books. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lolita)

[Vogonjeltz]

Was the bear in question hit with a maximized / empowered Awakening where the dice went well? Do they have a really good personality, a keen wit, a sharp tongue (for words! gyah!)? Some people don't care about looks. Sapiosexual, it's a thing.

They also occasionally decide that humanoids taste good and eat them. Trying to have a relationship with anything that is a predator of your species is always a bad idea.

[BrokenChord]

{scrubbed}

[Da'Shain]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}If by "sick person" you mean "part of a set that includes most of humanity back to before written history who have been interested in prostitution," then sure.

[Venger]

If by "sick person" you mean "part of a set that includes most of humanity back to before written history who have been interested in prostitution," then sure.{Scrubbed}
since awakened animals have been brought up, it does raise some questions.

what is their role in society in more open-minded cities? can they get married? own property? vote? they're good enough to go adventuring.

[ryu]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

Don't blame me. The people demanded a thread on the subject. Okay technically I started by bringing up the point that derailed a thread into this, but I didn't get to this point until he started asking how I got all that ambrosia...

[Coidzor]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

since awakened animals have been brought up, it does raise some questions.

what is their role in society in more open-minded cities? can they get married? own property? vote? they're good enough to go adventuring.

Well, they don't have a level adjustment, so I'm not so sure about that last part.

[SoraWolf7]

I just realized that this image could get quite real quite fast in D&D.
https://scontent-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/t1/1798687_808433442504644_1557464509_n.jpg

[Doomboy911]

Now if we're discussing sex and such lets go towards the other end of preventing it. Imagine all the effort people have put towards protecting the Order of The Stick gates, now put that towards a chastity belt. Glyph of Warding, Alarm, maybe even rig a teleportation trap on the wearer if they try to disable device.

[Coidzor]

I'm pretty sure having sex, even pre-contraception and pre-antibiotics, doesn't count as consuming 25% of daily resources. And I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a sex act with a 50% chance of defeat, let alone death.

(Plus, with elves' high magic society and low fertility, pregnancy and contraception are both less problematic than for pre-industrial humans.)

Weeeeeeeell... Depends on how you define defeat.

Alternatively, their low fertility is due to contraception use. :smalltongue:


Now if we're discussing sex and such lets go towards the other end of preventing it. Imagine all the effort people have put towards protecting the Order of The Stick gates, now put that towards a chastity belt. Glyph of Warding, Alarm, maybe even rig a teleportation trap on the wearer if they try to disable device.

That last one might be more of a craft contingent spell.

[Petrocorus]

I just realized that this image could get quite real quite fast in D&D.

Oh my....
I totally imagine starting a scenario this way now! Poor PC.

This forum definitely needs a like button.


Now if we're discussing sex and such lets go towards the other end of preventing it. Imagine all the effort people have put towards protecting the Order of The Stick gates, now put that towards a chastity belt. Glyph of Warding, Alarm, maybe even rig a teleportation trap on the wearer if they try to disable device.

Actually, the trend will surely to use magical means which don't use an actual chastity belt. This thing were not the most comfortable and a cursed wondrous item would probably to the trick too.

[Venger]

Well, they don't have a level adjustment, so I'm not so sure about that last part.

I meant animal companions, not animal PCs.

[Cirrylius]

And I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a sex act with a 50% chance of defeat, let alone death.
I'm tempted as hell to sig this:smallbiggrin:

[Arbane]

They also occasionally decide that humanoids taste good and eat them. Trying to have a relationship with anything that is a predator of your species is always a bad idea.

(Insert obligatory Twilight joke here.)

[3WhiteFox3]

I imagine that Adepts would also be popular madams for smaller brothels/towns. Especially since they can double pretty well as midwives.

Reading through the Adept's spell list just gave me disturbing mental images about how someone might use certain spells in creative ways.

:smalleek:

[Sith_Happens]

I imagine that Adepts would also be popular madams for smaller brothels/towns. Especially since they can double pretty well as midwives.

Reading through the Adept's spell list just gave me disturbing mental images about how someone might use certain spells in creative ways.

:smalleek:

You thinking more Baleful Polymorph or Burning Hands?:smallwink:

[Drachasor]

{Scrubbed}
since awakened animals have been brought up, it does raise some questions.

what is their role in society in more open-minded cities? can they get married? own property? vote? they're good enough to go adventuring.

It's open-minded, so I assume the answer to all of those is "yes." They are sentient and would have all the rights appropriate to sentients. Otherwise the society isn't really open-minded.

Says some somewhat unpleasant things about our society, potentially (given we can talk to a limited degree with Apes). But I imagine if they could actually speak and communicate as well as the average person rather than 2-4 year olds (very, very roughly speaking), then it would be different.

I think a bigger ethical dilemma is Polymorph Any Object. If you turn a rock into a person or a bug into a person...is that ethical? Seems sketchy to me given the limited duration.

And Simulacrums are a whole problem in and of themselves in terms of ethical treatment (since they are sentient and presumably have their own desires). Other shadow creations aren't any better.

And does a Flesh Golem POA'd into a person (assume it can be ordered to fail the SR check) still have to obey its creator? What are the ethical ramifications of that sort of thing? What about a Stone Golem? That largely avoids disease concerns if you use Polymorph since you just clean them off afterwards. Though don't expect a lot of excitment (not sure how much there is normally though).

Honestly, there's a slew of ethical issues normally passed over.

[Clistenes]

In Faerun there's a hermit wizard running around with two CH18 female flesh golems.


Who is that wizard and in which book can I find him?

I have found the character. He's Tulrun of the Tent, and he's in the Silver Marches' book.

This article (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/mm/mm20010511a) gives stats for medium-sized flesh golems (I think they have the same prize as regular flesh golems), and for 8000 gp more you can give them intelligence if you have the Rudimentary Intelligence feat. Charisma would be trickier. And I have no idea about how much it would cost to make them human-looking.

I guess you could use the stats of a Living Crystal Statue (Dungeon Magazine #150 pg 29) ) with Rudimentary Intelligence on which you have cast "Transmute Stone to Flesh". That would produce a human-looking creatre with decent charisma and intelligence.

[Necroticplague]

I just realized that this image could get quite real quite fast in D&D.
https://scontent-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/t1/1798687_808433442504644_1557464509_n.jpg

Alternatively:

Never play drinking games with the transmuter.

[Vanitas]

That's a bit of a thorny issue. Yes, it was made by someone who wasn't wotc, but they did have official approval, making it much like dragon mag in term of legality.

I don't think that is true. Source?

[Doomboy911]

Actually I think what the best chastity belt would be the belt of gender change. Although it will lead to other bad results. All the girls will act like guys and vice versa. Can we please play this society?

[Zubrowka74]

No, just books. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lolita)

Didn't you get the memo? Nobody reads books anymore!

[Talya]

Didn't you get the memo? Nobody reads books anymore!

Could Nabokov have written that today and had the same success with it as he did when it was released 59 years ago, I wonder?

[Jeff the Green]

I'm tempted as hell to sig this:smallbiggrin:

Go ahead. :smallwink:


No, just books. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lolita)

Nabokov was definitely not celebrating Humbert abusing Lolita, despite what a few creepy old men and illiterate moral guardians might think. The elf songs apparently do,


Could Nabokov have written that today and had the same success with it as he did when it was released 59 years ago, I wonder?

I kind of doubt it. People then weren't as cognizant of the damage child sex abuse does or of its prevalence. Those illiterate moral guardians would be on every cable news program denouncing Nabokov, and the poor literature professors who can actually recognize good literature when they see it wouldn't be able to stem the tide. Amazon would pull it from the Kindle store, there'd be congressional investigations, and Nabokov wouldn't be able to leave his house without being ambushed by Nancy Grace's producers.

[Eldest]

One point to keep in mind is that most prostitutes are in the industry because they're desperate for cash. Your typical streetwalker isn't remotely going to be able to afford any of these magic items. High-end escorts might, but that's just going to end up driving an even sharper wedge between the haves and the have-nots.

Popping in to say that from what I've seen about it, not always true. It's money, sure. But for many it's just a job.

[pwykersotz]

I'm pretty sure having sex, even pre-contraception and pre-antibiotics, doesn't count as consuming 25% of daily resources. And I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a sex act with a 50% chance of defeat, let alone death.

That just means you aren't trying hard enough! :smalltongue:

[veti]

Oh my....
I totally imagine starting a scenario this way now! Poor PC.

Scenario, nothing. I now plan to start my next campaign like that.

[RedMage125]

Alternatively:

Never play drinking games with the transmuter.

Lol, this reminds me of a quote from an old game I ran years ago...

"Conjuring Under the Influence"...that's some fun times.

[3WhiteFox3]

You thinking more Baleful Polymorph or Burning Hands?:smallwink:

Both of those and many more. I'm actually having a harder time finding spells that couldn't be used to gratify someone's fetish.

Hell, Adepts don't get it, but prestidigitation probably has at least 101 uses in bed by itself.

[Coidzor]

Both of those and many more. I'm actually having a harder time finding spells that couldn't be used to gratify someone's fetish.

Hell, Adepts don't get it, but prestidigitation probably has at least 101 uses in bed by itself.

Considering it probably has thousands if not millions of possible uses, that makes sense. It is Least Wish, after all.

[Necroticplague]

Grease
Web
Polymorph line
Summon X lines
creation line
touchsight
Vigor
Lesser restoration (to get rid of annoying fatigue)
I could have sworn there was a bard spell that made objects start vibrating, but I can't seem to find it.

[Eldest]

Grease
Web
Polymorph line
Summon X lines
creation line
touchsight
Vigor
Lesser restoration (to get rid of annoying fatigue)
I could have sworn there was a bard spell that made objects start vibrating, but I can't seem to find it.

Sympathetic Vibration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sympatheticVibration.htm), maybe?

[3WhiteFox3]

Grease
Web
Polymorph line
Summon X lines
creation line
touchsight
Vigor
Lesser restoration (to get rid of annoying fatigue)
I could have sworn there was a bard spell that made objects start vibrating, but I can't seem to find it.

Prestidigitation can probably make something vibrate.

Guidance
Ghost Sound
Create Water
Cure Minor Wounds
Sleep
Obscuring Mist
Bear's Endurance
Bull's Strength
Cat's Grace
Eagle's Splendor
Darkness
Invisibility
Mirror Image
Animate Dead
Contagion (Make someone weaker, can be removed easily)
Bestow Curse (Not just for the birth control, both the BoVD and Dragon Magazine add possible effects. The caster can also come up with his own curses. If Prestidigitation is least Wish, Bestow Curse is minor Wish.)
Stoneskin
Commune
Trueseeing (Need to know what you're partner actually is?)
Any spell that reverses the effects of one of the above spells.
Any damage spell

The above is just from the Adept's spell list. And I'm probably still being far too conservative.

I also just realized, since the preferred madam for a bordello is a cleric who regularly prepares Bestow Curse. That same spell can double as retaliation against any patron who attacks the prostitutes or goes outside of bounds. Especially if it's well known that people who piss off the madams will be subjected to very creative curses.

[Necroticplague]

Prestidigitation can probably make something vibrate.

Guidance
Ghost Sound
Create Water
Cure Minor Wounds
Sleep
Obscuring Mist
Bear's Endurance
Bull's Strength
Cat's Grace
Eagle's Splendor
Darkness
Invisibility
Mirror Image
Animate Dead
Contagion (Make someone weaker, can be removed easily)
Bestow Curse (Not just for the birth control, both the BoVD and Dragon Magazine add possible effects. The caster can also come up with his own curses. If Prestidigitation is least Wish, Bestow Curse is minor Wish.)
Stoneskin
Commune
Trueseeing (Need to know what you're partner actually is?)
Any spell that reverses the effects of one of the above spells.
Any damage spell

The above is just from the Adept's spell list. And I'm probably still being far too conservative.

I also just realized, since the preferred madam for a bordello is a cleric who regularly prepares Bestow Curse. That same spell can double as retaliation against any patron who attacks the prostitutes or goes outside of bounds. Especially if it's well known that people who piss off the madams will be subjected to very creative curses.

Why cleric? It seems like an archivist have a better reason to want to do so:these scroll scribing costs ain't gonna cover themselves. Pluss, they could fish around for the lowest level version of all the spells.

[3WhiteFox3]

Why cleric? It seems like an archivist have a better reason to want to do so:these scroll scribing costs ain't gonna cover themselves. Pluss, they could fish around for the lowest level version of all the spells.

It was mentioned above that clerics of good and neutral aligned deities of love, fertility, sex, etc... would want to create safe and healthy conditions for sacramental prostitution. Or they might just want to promote their Deity's ideals through business. Sex and religion has mixed in our own history, so it seems logical that they would mix pretty well in a D&D setting too.

[Venger]

I could have sworn there was a bard spell that made objects start vibrating, but I can't seem to find it.

body harmonic? it deals ability damage, so, not very sexy.

[Necroticplague]

body harmonic? it deals ability damage, so, not very sexy.

Nah, the other person got it right earlier, sympathetic vibration. All you have to do is stretch the definition of "structure" until a "toy" fits.

[Renen]

Levitation spell is now avaliable as an oil. "If it wont go up, make it go up"

[3WhiteFox3]

Nah, the other person got it right earlier, sympathetic vibration. All you have to do is stretch the definition of "structure" until a "toy" fits.


Once it begins, the vibration deals 2d10 points of damage per round to the target structure.

If you do consider a toy a freestanding structure (which is really, really stretching it) your 'toy' will just vibrate itself into dust. And I don't know about you, but I don't want dust or splinters anywhere inside my private parts.

Other issues include it being a 6th level bard spell and the very short duration.

Like I said, prestidigitation could be argued to do it. That's a cantrip and it lasts an hour.

[Cruiser1]

Bear's Endurance
Bull's Strength
Cat's Grace
Eagle's Splendor
Owl's Wisdom is just as if not more important than the above. High WIS intensifies the senses like spot, listen, and presumably touch as well. It also gives the intuition to know what a partner likes, and whether they're hiding anything from you.

[3WhiteFox3]

Owl's Wisdom is just as if not more important than the above. High WIS intensifies the senses like spot, listen, and presumably touch as well. It also gives the intuition to know what a partner likes, and whether they're hiding anything from you.

Good point. By that same logic, Fox's Cunning also gives you bonuses towards making Int checks and knowledge checks for your partner's anatomy.

[Lord_Gareth]

I cannot believe that Animate Dead got a reference, but not Telekinesis. C'mon folks.

[Renen]

Summon monster: Octopus
http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2011/034/2/3/tentacle_rape_demote_poster_by_mikimichellemal-d38owtu.jpg

[Necroticplague]

I cannot believe that Animate Dead got a reference, but not Telekinesis. C'mon folks.

Eh, the "invisibly move stuff at a distance" always seemed more useful for perverts than for intercourse.


If you do consider a toy a freestanding structure (which is really, really stretching it) your 'toy' will just vibrate itself into dust. And I don't know about you, but I don't want dust or splinters anywhere inside my private parts.

Other issues include it being a 6th level bard spell and the very short duration.

Like I said, prestidigitation could be argued to do it. That's a cantrip and it lasts an hour.
Easy, riverine doesn't have HP to reduce, so it'll last. The really short duration is a big problem though. Just wondering, what allows prestidigitation to do that? A couple seem like they would be against it, actually (no tools, slowly lift, nothing that breaks concentration).

[Vhaidara]

On the other hand, with telekinesis you don't have to stop to grab a new toy. :smallamused:

[georgie_leech]

Easy, riverine doesn't have HP to reduce, so it'll last.

"In the witch's treasure chest, you find 3 scrolls of animate dead, 300 gold pieces, and oblong object about 10 inches long, slightly wider at one end, made of Riverine. No, you don't want additional details about this one."

[Coidzor]

"In the witch's treasure chest, you find 3 scrolls of animate dead, 300 gold pieces, and oblong object about 10 inches long, slightly wider at one end, made of Riverine. No, you don't want additional details about this one."

You give your PCs a riverine sex toy and they'll figure out how to use it to split mountains. :smalltongue:

[georgie_leech]

You give your PCs a riverine sex toy and they'll figure out how to use it to split mountains. :smalltongue:

I don't doubt it. They found a use for the bucket that flips upside down after 6 seconds, using it to dump rocks on a pressure plate.

[Petrocorus]

What is the riverine?

[georgie_leech]

What is the riverine?

A special material from Stormwrack that's basically water in between thin walls of force.

[gadren]

http://www.twiceblessedcomic.com/wp-content/webcomic/twice_blessed/page_55wp.jpg

[gadren]

I'm not sure if any of them would be, really. Although it depends on what you want them to do, if you know what I mean.
*CLANK* *CLANK* *CLANK* *CLANK*

You know, it speak of how pathetic I was as a teenager, but when Monster Manual 2 first came out and I saw nimblewrights, the first the thing I thought of when I saw its at-will shapechange ability was the "special applications."

[Petrocorus]

You know, it speak of how pathetic I was as a teenager, but when Monster Manual 2 first came out and I saw nimblewrights, the first the thing I thought of when I saw its at-will shapechange ability was the "special applications."

Just checked it. Another badly worded monster. The flavour text says they disguise as humanoids. But the SLA part says the have Alter Self at will, without saying it allows them to turn into humanoids, which means, i believe, that by raw, they can Alter themselves into constructs at will and cannot do what they are supposed to do. Usually, this kind of monster, when they don't have Shapechange, have Polymorph (humanoid only) at will, not Alter Self.

On an unrelated note, is an animated butter churn such a good solution.
I was thinking about an episode of Krod Mandoon. In Krod's verse, lube is apparently easily findable.

[Forrestfire]

Maybe the 3.0 alter self was different? I don't have that PHB on me right now, so I can't check.

[gadren]

Maybe the 3.0 alter self was different? I don't have that PHB on me right now, so I can't check.

3.0 Alter Self was very vague. Being able to make a nimblewright look like a person would seem to fall under the original spell description, depending on interpretation, but the intention was pretty clear.

The oversight seems to be in 3.5 update PDF for MM2, where they bothered to update things like its critical threat range, and gave it a level adjustment, but neglected to update its spell-like ability.

[Petrocorus]

I was thinking, is it possible when casting Bestow Curse to include a cancel option inside the curse? Like, you will be cursed until you accomplish some thing. So, the Bestow Curse use to make women infertile could have a command word to be cancelled, allowing the women to be able to have kids when she wants, without needing an expensive Remove Curse.

[Sith_Happens]

I was thinking, is it possible when casting Bestow Curse to include a cancel option inside the curse? Like, you will be cursed until you accomplish some thing. So, the Bestow Curse use to make women infertile could have a command word to be cancelled, allowing the women to be able to have kids when she wants, without needing an expensive Remove Curse.

I'd assume yes. The BoVD version of Greater Bestow Curse specifically requires a "classical" removal method (i.e.- "You're cursed until you do [X]") of some sort, in fact.

[Coidzor]

I'd assume yes. The BoVD version of Greater Bestow Curse specifically requires a "classical" removal method (i.e.- "You're cursed until you do [X]") of some sort, in fact.

Well that simplifies things nicely. XD

[Petrocorus]

That would be easier. The madam can curse the prostitute this way. "You will be unfertile until you utter the sentence "Rumpeltitskin" or "Welcome to the oval office, President Gore." "

[Lorsanna]

I have quite some experience with these issues from our games. I once traded being a Princess - castle and all - to being a mistress. It involved a succubi fight that ended in kissing .... Yes I was the succubus and I was sick of being called a princess. Struck a little close to home lol! But, I was the most sexually frustrated succubus ever.... Mostly cause my girlfriend was the DM and won't have any of them shenanigans in her game.... Not with my character anyhow! lol!!! It's an ongoing theme.

But yes, in the latest game I am a young (120yo) elf, and I hit on an 85 yo pretty elf (an Emo bard/fighter.... I have a weakness for the emo's) anyway after I offered her a bath with a bottle of fine elven wine and some weed (I'm from Breland after all), well she refuted me cause apparently I was being creepy and elves don't reach the age of consent till 115...... But yes I had to search this forum, which I love btw, for a thread on the age of consent.... And what do you know, I found one. You make my imagined worlds complete.... Anyway.... I shall try (and I know it will be futile - but hopefully entertaining) to bring up some canonical elvish, elfin and elven stories detailing certain activities and at what age.



Thank you forum posters! You're all a bunch of beautiful geeks!

[Lorsanna]

oh

And my Succubus (Morigan, but not *the* Morigan) was a bard and wrote a song called Succubi. I think it's appropriate to post it here. This game was a mash up of time zones etc so Morigan used audible glamour to make the music :)

https://soundcloud.com/amycin/succubi

[atemu1234]

Well, the first effect I'd probably note is less unwanted pregnancy due to the magical (and therein more effective) contraceptives. The existence of deities devoted to love, lust and sex would probably also lead to there being many places in which it is considered normal to have premarital relations.

Another noticeable effect would be on social enclave; like stays with like (usually) and thus age of consent would vary from culture to culture. Despite the commonality of half-elves, most cultures wouldn't have interbreeding for reasons of their own. In fact, barring half-elves, I remember that most cultures (including some elf ones, even) find crossbreeding not even a step above bestiality on the chain of wrong-ness. Half-dwarves and half-goblins would be viewed as monstrosities, and it is implied it takes something significantly wrong in most races to find members of another race attractive (again, elves being the exceptions, mostly).

[Fax Celestis]

I missed this thread. I'm glad it's back.

[daremetoidareyo]

Repel vermin. Especially when you planar bind succubbi .... No one wants fiendish body lice.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I doubt most Succubi would be so careless with their hygiene/personal appearance, but that is just me.

[Lorsanna]

You guys definitely don't have girly girl DM's

In our games we have different types of soaps, shampoos and moisturisers. These come free in most nice inn's. The soap often has glitter in it. I remember when a couple of guys started roleplaying with us and discovered potpourri in the bathroom they stole it and using herbalism separated it into useful parts. Me, I put it in my bath. A dwarf that I hang with lately (A chaotic evil dwarf who worships an insane dragon from Karnath) now has a variety of soaps - all with ground mica in - this gives a nice sparkly glitter and is also organic as you don't want cheap nasty glitter in a soap. It is also very prettily scented in delicate florals.

There are a lot of fine dress emporiums and likewise extensive options for corsetry etc in our towns and cities (Important when wearing fitted leather armour). Most towns have a perfumery. Oh, and the DM used to be a chef, so the menu's can be quite extensive and very gourmet at inn's. Our horses are colour co-ordinated.

There's the no NPC sex being allowed thing (That's just for me as i'm her gal).

The DM also happens to be a business woman, and the last campaign required getting permission slips to do almost anything. There was an infernal and diabolic bureaucracy complete with false smiles, papers in triplicate, licences for EVERYTHING, and an insanely powerful policing force (Called the crono-guard) who no one was ever able to go up against. Best option run. and hope. Prostitution and drugs were varied and legal. Just highly taxed and only available to some members of the party.

Oh, and you should have seen the bitch fights over pretty and expensive dresses at designer custom tailor shops. I had to role a 35 on a bluff check to talk the shops owner into letting me have the nemesis's 3000 GP frock. Let's just say she was *quite* upset. She was a mistress madam and owned the brothels and escorts all over Enola.

So, as to magic in the prostitution industry? Well, it's detailed and elaborate effects I shall leave to groups of teenage boys. For us, it was something considered obscana (Happening off the main stage).

-.-

[malonkey1]

So, as to magic in the prostitution industry? Well, it's detailed and elaborate effects I shall leave to groups of teenage boys. For us, it was something considered obscana (Happening off the main stage).

I assume the same hold true for most campaigns. I imagine this thread is (primarily) for academic curiosity.

[atemu1234]

You guys definitely don't have girly girl DM's

In our games we have different types of soaps, shampoos and moisturisers. These come free in most nice inn's. The soap often has glitter in it. I remember when a couple of guys started roleplaying with us and discovered potpourri in the bathroom they stole it and using herbalism separated it into useful parts. Me, I put it in my bath. A dwarf that I hang with lately (A chaotic evil dwarf who worships an insane dragon from Karnath) now has a variety of soaps - all with ground mica in - this gives a nice sparkly glitter and is also organic as you don't want cheap nasty glitter in a soap. It is also very prettily scented in delicate florals.

There are a lot of fine dress emporiums and likewise extensive options for corsetry etc in our towns and cities (Important when wearing fitted leather armour). Most towns have a perfumery. Oh, and the DM used to be a chef, so the menu's can be quite extensive and very gourmet at inn's. Our horses are colour co-ordinated.

There's the no NPC sex being allowed thing (That's just for me as i'm her gal).

The DM also happens to be a business woman, and the last campaign required getting permission slips to do almost anything. There was an infernal and diabolic bureaucracy complete with false smiles, papers in triplicate, licences for EVERYTHING, and an insanely powerful policing force (Called the crono-guard) who no one was ever able to go up against. Best option run. and hope. Prostitution and drugs were varied and legal. Just highly taxed and only available to some members of the party.

Oh, and you should have seen the bitch fights over pretty and expensive dresses at designer custom tailor shops. I had to role a 35 on a bluff check to talk the shops owner into letting me have the nemesis's 3000 GP frock. Let's just say she was *quite* upset. She was a mistress madam and owned the brothels and escorts all over Enola.

So, as to magic in the prostitution industry? Well, it's detailed and elaborate effects I shall leave to groups of teenage boys. For us, it was something considered obscana (Happening off the main stage).

-.-

The OP was asking for the effects magic would have on the industry. While I can understand trying to keep the game somewhat sanitary (I do in my games, personally) I don't think that ignoring it or letting it happen off-screen is the purpose of this thread.

For example, less disease. You could get into bed with less risk because you could probably afford to get healed.

[Coidzor]

Repel vermin. Especially when you planar bind succubbi .... No one wants fiendish body lice.

And here I'd have thought Prestidigitation would've handled that.


I assume the same hold true for most campaigns. I imagine this thread is (primarily) for academic curiosity.

Academic curiosity, bored shooting of the ****. Whatevskies. If someone actually wants to make use of this, more power to them. *shrug*


You guys definitely don't have girly girl DM's

Well, yeah. Conventional wisdom is that such a DM would be a bit of a rarity.


In our games we have different types of soaps, shampoos and moisturisers. These come free in most nice inn's. The soap often has glitter in it. I remember when a couple of guys started roleplaying with us and discovered potpourri in the bathroom they stole it and using herbalism separated it into useful parts. Me, I put it in my bath. A dwarf that I hang with lately (A chaotic evil dwarf who worships an insane dragon from Karnath) now has a variety of soaps - all with ground mica in - this gives a nice sparkly glitter and is also organic as you don't want cheap nasty glitter in a soap. It is also very prettily scented in delicate florals.

That doesn't even make sense. :smallconfused:

Mica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mica)is not organic. It is a mineral.


There are a lot of fine dress emporiums and likewise extensive options for corsetry etc in our towns and cities (Important when wearing fitted leather armour). Most towns have a perfumery. Oh, and the DM used to be a chef, so the menu's can be quite extensive and very gourmet at inn's. Our horses are colour co-ordinated.

So what rules did you use to simulate having fitted versus non-fitted leather armor and if armor wasn't fitted properly?


There's the no NPC sex being allowed thing (That's just for me as i'm her gal).

Honestly that's the most baffling thing you've said, even counting the organic!mica. She won't act out sex scenes with the one person one would expect her to be A-OK with doing more than just talk about the particulars of sex with, but will with everyone else.


The DM also happens to be a business woman, and the last campaign required getting permission slips to do almost anything. There was an infernal and diabolic bureaucracy complete with false smiles, papers in triplicate, licences for EVERYTHING, and an insanely powerful policing force (Called the crono-guard) who no one was ever able to go up against. Best option run. and hope. Prostitution and drugs were varied and legal. Just highly taxed and only available to some members of the party.

And she missed the opportunity to set it on Mechanus or a particularly unpleasant part of Acheron or in Baator? :smallconfused:


Oh, and you should have seen the bitch fights over pretty and expensive dresses at designer custom tailor shops. I had to role a 35 on a bluff check to talk the shops owner into letting me have the nemesis's 3000 GP frock. Let's just say she was *quite* upset. She was a mistress madam and owned the brothels and escorts all over Enola.

That's an interesting choice of name for a place, Enola. Was there any locale which received her last name?


So, as to magic in the prostitution industry? Well, it's detailed and elaborate effects I shall leave to groups of teenage boys. For us, it was something considered obscana (Happening off the main stage).

-.-

That's... uh... nice? :smallconfused:

[Frozen_Feet]

This has been noted, but it bears repeating: magic is expensive. A cantrip costs at least 5 gold pieces per pop if bought as a service. A 1st level spell costs at least 10 gp, a 2nd level spell at least 60 gp, a 3rd level spell at least 150 gp. One potion or oil costs 50 gp.

For comparison, using Profession (Prostitute) and Perform (Sexual) in tandem, a 1st level character with 4 skill ranks in both, a +1 ability modifier, working in a moderately-sized city, taking one customer per day (taking any more doesn't benefit you per the rules) and taking 10 on the checks can expect 12 gold pieces + 21d10 silver pieces per week, for average earning of 23 gold pieces.

A normal condom cost 1 silver piece. 1 dose of alchemical contraceptive costs between 1 sp and 2 gp, depending on whether you use BoEF or Forgotten Realms rules. Since one dose is easily enough to carry through a week, this means the bare minimum medical costs for selling yourself is 8 sp per week.

Absolutely no-one with native spellcasting ability has to sell themselves for money, since they could as well just sell their spells. Just as well, no-one with access to 2nd level spells or higher needs to pay for sex. If, between all mind-controlling effects, all summoning spells and all the wealth and fame to attract suitors, they can't find a way to entertain themselves for free, they are not trying.

It should also be obvious that if you're at all smart about prostitution, you don't have to do it for long. At the level of optimization represented by the hypothetical whore above, living in common quarters and eating well (1 gp per day, put together), you'll save up 15 gold pieces per week. In a year, you'll have 750 gp saved up. Even deducting costs for few sets of courtier's outfit, laundry and make-up, 500 gp is still a realistic goal. At that point, why continue whoring? You might as well study to become a Wizard or Cleric.

This is where we get to Sacred Prostitutes and the like. Once you have magic, the only reasons to stay in the oldest professions are limited to 1) spiritual calling, 2) you're lustful to the point of obsession and 3) someone with more magic is coercing you. 1) is heightened due to healing magic having such tight and direct connection with spirituality. The likely case is, any sex work with high levels of magic present is probably organized by and part of some sex-positive religion. Or you're dealing with demons after your immortal soul.

It should also be noted that if you allow characters to ignore the basic economic rules, the first Tier 1 caster deciding to monopolize the sex market can do so, run prices to the ground and drive every mundane harlot out of the business. Mundane sex workers would be entirely unable to resist, the only thing that'd stop such a character would be intervention by another Tier 1 of equal level.

If you don't allow circumvention of the basic economic rules, magicked sex will remain prohibitively expensive. The only possible target group would be high-level non-casters who lack the native ability to conjure up sex toys on their own but have enough money to pay the casters.

To high-level, magical courtesans, prevention of pregnancy is a total non-issue. An Outsider, Fey or other magical creature has full control over their reproductive system. Babies won't happen if they don't want it. As far as casters go, all relevant pregnancy-prevention and detection spells are 0th or 1st level - if you have to use Bestow Curse for any such purpose, you're doing it wrong. Nevermind that at this level, you don't need more than 1 wealthy customer, you only need to have sex with them when it suits you, and you will probably be doing everything but normal coitus. Diseases continue to be an inconvenience, but not much longer - disease detection spells are 1st level or below, if you have 3rd level spells you can eliminate all chances of disease entirely.

I see no point in speculating how prostitution would change at this point, because, as noted, money becomes largely irrelevant. You're no longering offering to entertain some John for a few gold pieces, you are seducing Kings and Queens in hopes of power, fame and/or their souls.

To summarize:

Magic would not change life of the common prostitute much at all. It's much more cost-effective to use alchemy and mundane items. By the time a prostitute can afford magic items, they can do pretty much anything else they wish too. Most prostitutes would hence join the profession for only a year or two, to save up money for some goal. This is not very different from contemporary students doing sexwork on the side to pay for their tuitions.

You would see a lot of religious organizations offering sex for no or nominal costs in the name of various spiritual causes.

You would see an occasional Wizard (etc.) with slightly wacko idealist bent trying to set up a paradise in the vein of "free & consequence free sex for everyone!"

Occasionally a caster with lots of power but not much smarts to use it (Sorcerer?) would set up a human-trafficking racket or mind-control local prostitutes to reap the benefits, partly for the Evulz, partly because they didn't realize there were more efficient ways to use their might.

Once in a while some fabulously beautiful otherwordly creature will arrive to seduce the local person of authority and the whole country goes downhill due to the melodrama that ensues.

You, as a normal person, wouldn't be much wiser for it.

You, as a person of wealth and power, would get to do the nasty with literal angels or demons.

[WhamBamSam]

Note that this thread spun off from ryu discussing his system of using brothels with wondrous architecture to mass produce liquid joy for crafting purposes. So it can actually be stone cold pragmatism rather than idealism or the player's adolescence that drives the wizard to enter into a partnership with the sex industry.

Also, I think the DM did actually put up some not insignificant resistance to the economy being broken by the wizard in question. I seem to remember ryu mentioning something about an inter-planar pimp war.

[malonkey1]

an inter-planar pimp war.

This one phrase makes all those before and after it meaningless and petty.

[Gemini476]

Note that this thread spun off from ryu discussing his system of using brothels with wondrous architecture to mass produce liquid joy for crafting purposes. So it can actually be stone cold pragmatism rather than idealism or the player's adolescence that drives the wizard to enter into a partnership with the sex industry.

Also, I think the DM did actually put up some not insignificant resistance to the economy being broken by the wizard in question. I seem to remember ryu mentioning something about an inter-planar pimp war.

I still think that nippleclamps of masochism plus Eternity of Torture/Symbol of Pain, et.al. make for a more effective way to get a lot of Liquid Joy. And gets people to pay a whole lot of money for the experience as well - Eternity of Torture in particular must be absolutely crazy when combined with the NoM. I could see rich people getting addicted to stuff like that. Who needs prostitutes when spells can substitute?

...I think I already said this in this thread last time it came around, though.

[Yahzi]

Trueseeing for the expensive brothels. Being assure that what you see is what you get
I know I'm late to the thread, but nobody goes into a brothel wanting to see the truth.

I mean, it's like you've never even - oh wait. Ooops. :smallredface:

[aleucard]

I know I'm late to the thread, but nobody goes into a brothel wanting to see the truth.

I mean, it's like you've never even - oh wait. Ooops. :smallredface:

Well, it varies to the client's taste. Sometimes they want something that's literally impossible even with the screwy things magic can do, and therein lies the purview of illusions. Some want to know they're about to be, er, 'Serviced' by an Eldritch Abomination and as such Trueseeing to know that what's happening IS what's happening would be appreciated. Never underestimate the level of depravity that people can generate, especially where magic is involved.

Isn't this thread several months dead? If so, I'm amazed it hasn't been shut by now.

[Coidzor]

I know I'm late to the thread, but nobody goes into a brothel wanting to see the truth.

I mean, it's like you've never even - oh wait. Ooops. :smallredface:

Oh... Oh man... I just had a vision of an even worse direction Dominic Deegan could have gone in just now... :smalleek:

[ryu]

Note that this thread spun off from ryu discussing his system of using brothels with wondrous architecture to mass produce liquid joy for crafting purposes. So it can actually be stone cold pragmatism rather than idealism or the player's adolescence that drives the wizard to enter into a partnership with the sex industry.

Also, I think the DM did actually put up some not insignificant resistance to the economy being broken by the wizard in question. I seem to remember ryu mentioning something about an inter-planar pimp war.

So this threads back without getting locked? Okies.

As to first point it was totally pragmatism. I wanted my crafting rudiments, a nice stream of money on the side, and an army of fanatically loyal magical women of every species under the sun for stylistic purposes. Was every individual choice strictly necessary? No, but it's my supply of infinite resources, and will run as I please at the time.

Also I at no point broke the world economy doing this. I broke wealth by level certainly, but that's a different thing. No what I did was enter into what I thought was a market ripe for the taking, and then start a war over territory with a succubus controlled layer of the abyss. It ended in no less than three separate war-fronts separated by magical time travel stretching across several planes, and the invention of what our group lovingly refers to paradox bombing. This is what happens when you let me experiment with time portals, control of the local laws of physics, and fusion reactions.

[nedz]

Isn't this thread several months dead? If so, I'm amazed it hasn't been shut by now.

Maybe the Mods view it as a kind of Handbook ? :smallredface:

[aleucard]

Also I at no point broke the world economy doing this. I broke wealth by level certainly, but that's a different thing. No what I did was enter into what I thought was a market ripe for the taking, and then start a war over territory with a succubus controlled layer of the abyss. It ended in no less than three separate war-fronts separated by magical time travel stretching across several planes, and the invention of what our group lovingly refers to paradox bombing. This is what happens when you let me experiment with time portals, control of the local laws of physics, and fusion reactions.

This is why I like pen-and-paper gaming, even when video games are in evidence. :smallbiggrin: When you know that you can cause multiple flavors of armageddon at once because of what is literally a pimp war, then you know that the good times are officially rolling. I wanna play a game like that. ;_;

[ryu]

This is why I like pen-and-paper gaming, even when video games are in evidence. :smallbiggrin: When you know that you can cause multiple flavors of armageddon at once because of what is literally a pimp war, then you know that the good times are officially rolling. I wanna play a game like that. ;_;

All that you must do is throw away all preconception of what the game designers think the rules should bring up, find a group of people almost as categorically insane as mine which is the hard part, and start asking yourself one question. Given the tools I have access to what would Archimedes do? Bonus points if you know enough history to understand exactly how terrifying a person I am for using that as a motto.

[aleucard]

All that you must do is throw away all preconception of what the game designers think the rules should bring up, find a group of people almost as categorically insane as mine which is the hard part, and start asking yourself one question. Given the tools I have access to what would Archimedes do? Bonus points if you know enough history to understand exactly how terrifying a person I am for using that as a motto.

If my memory is correct, then Archimedes is the guy who built a clockwork owl for the fun of it, right? Mad Scientist type, possibly the progenitor of the stereotype itself?

Yeah, I think I have an idea.

[Eldest]

If my memory is correct, then Archimedes is the guy who built a clockwork owl for the fun of it, right? Mad Scientist type, possibly the progenitor of the stereotype itself?

Yeah, I think I have an idea.

Mirror death ray is the first thing that springs to mind. In ancient greece.

[AvatarVecna]

I've put together a build based on some ideas that have been stewing around in my head for a little while. The idea of this character that they're taking over the world by forming a malicious prostitution guild; please keep in mind that I don't approve of any ideas mentioned for this character's tactics, only that I think they're along the lines of what such a character would do, knowing the rules of how their abilities work.

Primary character: LE Venerable Psion 5/Thrallherd 10/Psion +5; optimize race for Int. All thralls are carbon copies of this build, adjusted for their individual level. Thus, the primary character's thralls (Psion 9/Thrallherd 10 and Psion 8/Thrallherd 10) each have 2 thralls themselves (which is entirely rules legal). By virtue of having maxed out the Thrallherd PrC, each Thrallherd's leadership score is at least 25, ensuring them the maximum number of believers.

The total organization of Thrallherds is as thus:

(1) Psion 10/Thrallherd 10
(1) Psion 9/Thrallherd 10
(2) Psion 8/Thrallherd 10
(3) Psion 7/Thrallherd 10
(5) Psion 6/Thrallherd 10
(8) Psion 5/Thrallherd 10
(13) Thralls of ECL 14
(8) Thralls of ECL 13
(40) Believers of ECL 6
(40) Believers of ECL 5
(80) Believers of ECL 4
(140) Believers of ECL 3
(260) Believers of ECL 2
(2700) Believers of ECL 1

The thralls with unassigned class levels should be primary casters with item-crafting expertise and the ability to acts as guild leaders over large areas. The higher level believers should be primary casters of some sort (preferably clerics worshiping the main character's cause); they will be the local brothel managers working under the guild leaders. The lower level believers will be the prostitutes working for the guild. Now, on to why the main character is LE.

The goal here is profit, plain and simple. Your believers aren't followers: they will do as you command, no matter what. Seeing as you don't care about their health, don't feed them or house them. In fact, don't let them sleep; by the rules, doing anything for too long makes you fatigued, and doing it even longer makes you exhausted, but that's where the rules stop. Since Profession is based on Wisdom, and Perform is based on Charisma, the relevant skills aren't effected by being tired, so feel free to run your believers ragged. Congratulate yourself on saving some money by not paying for anything but the clothes on their backs.

Of course, keep this up for too long, and they'll die of starvation. Not to worry! They'll be replaced by someone just as competent within 24 hours, ensuring you've only lost 24 hours worth of profit from one person. Sure, when you spread this across the entire organization, it adds up, but after it's gone on that long, you can pull a real trick.

Every once in a while, a previously wealthy client will be low on funds, and as a result will want to spend less on your prostitutes. Have your high-level guild leaders get them arrested for, charged of, and convicted of mass murder of guild prostitutes. With a little bit of gold greasing the wheels of justice, they'll get the death sentence; of course, if the area you operate in doesn't have the death penalty, get them prison for life, then have one of your psion thralls destroy their mind so that no one can ever learn that they didn't really do it. Finally, whether they're alive or dead, sue their estate on the grounds of them having destroyed guild resources; take every copper piece they've got left. Repeat as necessary.

Keep in mind that, if repeated too often, those with real power might start getting suspicious, so try to mix it up a little from time to time: at some point, have an entire guild house's worth of believers commit suicide in a way that makes it look like they were savagely murdered by brutish monsters. In 24 hours, have your new believers be local monsters, who attack the metropolis on a suicide run: have them break into the city as quietly as possible (with the help of your guild leaders) then begin looting whatever they can, storing their stolen money in the guild house vault. After several hours of this, they should be quite tired, and will screw up the stealth portion of the plan, eventually getting caught. The city guard/militia/army will make short work of them, at which point you can make believers out of the suddenly broke portion of the populace.

Once the city has been entirely drained of wealth and people, move on to another one, and repeat.

[ryu]

If my memory is correct, then Archimedes is the guy who built a clockwork owl for the fun of it, right? Mad Scientist type, possibly the progenitor of the stereotype itself?

Yeah, I think I have an idea.

Even better than that. Archimedes isn't just the first verifiable mad scientist in history. You could get there just with the killing inventions he made. No he's what we call a badass in the history of science for those very inventions plus other glorious and frightening things. Lookie:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzzaSWyIhHM

[molten_dragon]

Trueseeing for the expensive brothels. Being assure that what you see is what you get might become a valued commodity if it becomes a mark of status. Not only are you rich enough to get the actually pretty ones, but you have the magic to confirm it.

I could see it going the exact opposite way too though. High-end prostitutes who, with the aid of magic, can be anyone, or anything you want them to be for the night. You'd probably end up with some of both. And I could see some high-end places employing exotic prostitutes of different species for those customers who want something exotic.

I could see certain churches actually running brothels (in fact I'm pretty sure in the Pathfinder pantheon there's at least one that does), and some others providing disease screening to keep the ladies safer.

[Rubik]

Just as a reminder to everyone, Distilled Joy is of Permanent duration, so you only ever have to cast it on a single creature once.

[Coidzor]

Once the city has been entirely drained of wealth and people, move on to another one, and repeat.

Eh? Isn't killing the goose that lays the golden egg more CE than LE?

[AvatarVecna]

Eh? Isn't killing the goose that lays the golden egg more CE than LE?

The alignment is debatable, depending on how long it takes for a new city to come into being; by being willing to sacrifice however many innocents are necessary to optimize profits while still getting away with murdering entire cities, I thought the build was LE: someone who needs the system (in this case, the economy) to remain intact for their evil to pay off. It seemed more like Lex Luthor ruthlessly squeezing every penny of profit out of a town that it did the Joker bombing the city and rifling through everyone's pockets, with the difference in the end results being that Luthor had a way that he didn't look like the bad guy, while the Joker didn't care enough to give himself an alibi.

Of course, even if the alignment is NE or CE, the build still works because it wasn't necessary for any part of the build. Really, it's whatever alignment you feel it is, so long as it's using magically psionically enslaved hookers to slowly drain the population of wealth.

EDIT: had to correct myself

[Rubik]

Wouldn't it be better if you set up distilled joy, attraction, suggestion, and dominate-type traps with magic aura spells on them to push everyone into visiting your brothel?

[AvatarVecna]

I've never been a fan of repeating spell traps; it just seems lazy to me. Of course, I can't deny the potential efficiency...just make sure the traps aren't too obvious, or people will avoid them

Also, one of the reasons I went with the cabal of thrallherds is because, unlike with spells, you don't get a save to avoid becoming a thrall/believer: if the thrallherd tries to attract you to their cause, they do, as long as you're of the right level. When your current hookers have been worked to death, you just attract more with no save. It's simple and effective. I'm sure there's a ton of TO ways that are faster, but if you're getting into TO magical/psionic tricks, you probably have more important things to dominate than the prostitution industry.

[Rubik]

I've never been a fan of repeating spell traps; it just seems lazy to me. Of course, I can't deny the potential efficiency...just make sure the traps aren't too obvious, or people will avoid them

Also, one of the reasons I went with the cabal of thrallherds is because, unlike with spells, you don't get a save to avoid becoming a thrall/believer: if the thrallherd tries to attract you to their cause, they do, as long as you're of the right level. When your current hookers have been worked to death, you just attract more with no save. It's simple and effective. I'm sure there's a ton of TO ways that are faster, but if you're getting into TO magical/psionic tricks, you probably have more important things to dominate than the prostitution industry.If you replaced psion with StP erudite in all but the head honcho and gave everyone Linked Power (and your H.H. all of the powers and spells the thralls know via Psychic Chirurgery), you could have the higher level ones manifesting Distilled Joy in one round on everyone they service, bottling it up and sending it to you. They could do the same for Liquid Pain. Then you could permanently gain both ambrosia and liquid pain from everyone, your thralls included, for the rest of their (albeit short) lives.

[AvatarVecna]

If you replaced psion with StP erudite in all but the head honcho and gave everyone Linked Power (and your H.H. all of the powers and spells the thralls know via Psychic Chirurgery), you could have the higher level ones manifesting Distilled Joy in one round on everyone they service, bottling it up and sending it to you. They could do the same for Liquid Pain. Then you could permanently gain both ambrosia and liquid pain from everyone, your thralls included, for the rest of their (albeit short) lives.

I love StP Erudite Thrallherds, because they actually have a way of gaining spells that doesn't drain their resources! And yeah, abusing StP Erudite cheese is getting into the TO stuff. Anyway, it's all very interesting stuff.

Of course, that's only ever gonna happen if some super-old ECL 20 Thrallherd decides they want to spend their golden years surrounded by beautiful men/women with enough gold to build a city out of it. Wait a minute...

[Savannah]

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