Best way to go for Two-Weapon Rogue [PF]

[Azreal]

I'm helping someone build a rogue and she wants to duel wield daggers. They are only level 3 so far, so what's the best way to go about helping her accomplish this.
Her stats are. They can switch stats however if need be to be slightly more effective. (I'm DM I can make this so)
Str: 14
Dex: 16
Con: 14
Int: 14
Wis: 10
Cha: 12

[Dusk Eclipse]

What sources are you allowing? the Base PF rogue is pretty weak (ninja less so I am lead to believe).

I personally would go with Weapon finesse, Piranha strike and TWF to start it gives her basic competence and helps her damage output when not capable of sneak attacking.


Either way, does she wants be a rogue specifically? Or just a sneak dual-wielder? Because a Cutthroat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife) Soulknife (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife) is very effective with that.

[Azreal]

I'll allow most sources as long as it's balanced and she doesn't outshine everyone else. I'm just looking for suggestions since I'm not very familiar with martial non-spellcasty classes.

[Nihilarian]

I'd start with the Knife Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes/knife-master), if you want to stick to rogue.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Soulknife is mid-high tier 4 (and get's to 3 if you take the gifted blade archetype, which is compatible with cutthroat BTW). If everyone is optimizing at the same level it shouldn't overshadow anyone else unless they are playing something like non-archetype monk or a NPC class.

One of the reasons I suggest Cutthroat Soulknife over rogue is that it gets full BAB whish helps tons when TWF, besides certain bladeskills like Combat slide help a lot for in-combat mobility, which in turn makes setting up flanks quite easy.

[Azreal]

Upon examination, I see that the Soulknife is a psionic class, and I avoid those like Nickelback avoids Depth.

I didn't see that archetype for Rogues so I'll have to look into that.

[Sayt]

The slayer is what I suggest. Full bab, 6d6 sneak attack damage, and access to ranger combat styles, in addition to a quite decent skill allotment and selection.

Is out in august, but the playtest is available on paizos site.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Upon examination, I see that the Soulknife is a psionic class, and I avoid those like Nickelback avoids Depth.

I didn't see that archetype for Rogues so I'll have to look into that.

Fair enough I guess. If I may ask why?

[Nihilarian]

Soulknife is mid-high tier 4 (and get's to 3 if you take the gifted blade archetype, which is compatible with cutthroat BTW). If everyone is optimizing at the same level it shouldn't overshadow anyone else unless they are playing something like non-archetype monk or a NPC class.

One of the reasons I suggest Cutthroat Soulknife over rogue is that it gets full BAB whish helps tons when TWF, besides certain bladeskills like Combat slide help a lot for in-combat mobility, which in turn makes setting up flanks quite easy.Gifted Blade and Cutthroat both replace Psychic Strike.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Woops, I missed that:smallredface:

[Azreal]

Fair enough I guess. If I may ask why?

I don't particularly for flavor and I've never seen them do anything except make the world explode.

[Nihilarian]

I don't particularly for flavor and I've never seen them do anything except make the world explode.You are not going to explode the world with a soulknife. Ever.

You'd have a tough time managing it with the Psion. Tougher than the Wizard, anyway.

If you don't like the flavor then that's fine, but psionics are no more broken than spellcasting.

[Hruken]

Knifemaster is usually the key, maybe mix in Scout (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes/scout) for more ways to get sneak attacks. The trait River Rat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/regional-traits/river-rat) is another good thing to have, as that trait bonus stacks with a lot.

[Azreal]

You are not going to explode the world with a soulknife. Ever.

You'd have a tough time managing it with the Psion. Tougher than the Wizard, anyway.

If you don't like the flavor then that's fine, but psionics are no more broken than spellcasting.

I typically don't need more then one broken class a game.

[Nihilarian]

I typically don't need more then one broken class a game.The psion - strongest psionic class - is roughly the same tier as the sorcerer. Maybe a low tier 1 if more changed between 3.5 and PF than I realized. There's still the Cleric, Druid and Wizard above him for sure, and perhaps the Witch and Paragon Surge Sorcerer and Oracle. Banning psionics for balance reasons makes no sense, unless you're banning those classes as well.

The Soulknife is a solid tier 4. He isn't going to break anything. He's barely psionic, without Gifted Blade.

[Azreal]

I rationally understand that psionics aren't more broken then spellcasting itself is however I've only had bad experiences with psionic classes and I've never enjoyed their flavor for fantasy settings so I avoid them when I play and ban them when I dm.

Can we stop picking apart my irrational hatred of an entire group and go back to the question at hand? ;A;

[Spore]

I'm helping someone build a rogue and she wants to duel wield daggers.

If your game exceed level 8 she starts to suck. Tell her that. It is as simple as that.

Her mobility costs not one but TWO extra attacks and the 2/3 BAB starts to show.

[Azreal]

If your game exceed level 8 she starts to suck. Tell her that. It is as simple as that.

Her mobility costs not one but TWO extra attacks and the 2/3 BAB starts to show.

The issue is they need the skill monkey, and she wants to duel wield. She doesn't plan to shine in combat as long as she can contribute. No one is optimizing in this game so I'm not super worried about it.

[Spore]

The issue is they need the skill monkey, and she wants to duel wield. She doesn't plan to shine in combat as long as she can contribute. No one is optimizing in this game so I'm not super worried about it.

I know what you mean. Still, I played a rogue like that and I know someone who played a TWFing ranger. Both characters were frustrating to play.

I gave up my rogue (and it was my favorite character but I couldn't bare the suckiness in fights anymore) and the ranger hasn't joined the last three sessions.

[Segev]

What is her race, and is it fixed?

With some house ruling (because the race is horribly, horribly badly written as-is, to the point of requiring some sort of DM call on multiple fronts), a dvati multi-wielder is pretty impressive.

Dvati are a +1 LA race that gives you one mind in two bodies. The most restrictive reading of the race's dual-body capability (at least that leaves them marginally functional) would give them a shared move action and otherwise one full round's worth of actions between each body. In this case, she would technically qualify for the Multiattack feat tree, letting her wield four knives: one in each of each body's two hands. Three are "off-hand" weapons.

Work up towards Invisible Blade for the free-action feinting, or the like.

Of course, this is a 3.5 design, with a 3.5 3rd party race, so it may not work at all for your game.

[Sayt]

The issue is they need the skill monkey, and she wants to duel wield. She doesn't plan to shine in combat as long as she can contribute. No one is optimizing in this game so I'm not super worried about it.

Again, I recommend Slayer over rogue. You still get 6+int skills, which with human and damped class bonus is kind of plenty, can get trapfinding, twf ranger combat style, and it has full bab and an extra accuracy/damage mechanic and sneak attack. Imho it kind of obsoletes the rogue, but it doesn't get as much sneak attack, but you can more reliably use power attack or piranha strike, abd even then you can try improved two weapon feint on top to get your sneak attack as well and get some accuracy (that said, I'd not bother of you had to take normal two weapon feint, but it isnt technically required)

[Nihilarian]

Again, I recommend Slayer over rogue. You still get 6+int skills, which with human and damped class bonus is kind of plenty, can get trapfinding, twf ranger combat style, and it has full bab and an extra accuracy/damage mechanic and sneak attack. Imho it kind of obsoletes the rogue, but it doesn't get as much sneak attack, but you can more reliably use power attack or piranha strike, abd even then you can try improved two weapon feint on top to get your sneak attack as well and get some accuracy (that said, I'd not bother of you had to take normal two weapon feint, but it isnt technically required)From a mechanical stand point, the rogue has been practically obsolete since the ninja was published. The only real reason to take rogue is archetypes.

Having said that, there are some good ones. I like the Halfling, Half-Orc and Tengu racial archetypes. Probably not as powerful as ninja, but worth looking at. Tengu in particular gets pounce (after taking a full around action to start the trance), which closes the gap a bit.

I'm looking forward to seeing the final version of the Slayer.