Schism Bull

[kirerellim]

My player is trying to sell me that because he has Practiced Manifester, Schism casts abilities at -2 not -6 caster level. I'm calling bull. Please, please tell me I'm right lol.

[weckar]

It completely depends on what order you apply the penalties/bonuses in... But yeah this is Bull.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I'd also call bull.

Or I'd just reply that I was banning the power and to pick a new one. :smalltongue:

[kirerellim]

Ok I thought so lol they are already doing enough without that >< Their thrall is a dedicated crafter that constantly makes Liquid Salt and his characters main form of attack is Telekinetic Thrust. Do you know how many creatures have damage resist vs dessication?

[Nettlekid]

I'm pretty sure not bull, actually. If the player is a full manifester (or multiclassed but didn't apply Practiced Manifester to his normal ML) then if he uses Schism and afterwards applies PM, it would indeed bump up the ML.

[weckar]

After reading it a bit.... It is quite ambiguous, because we can likely assume that the Schism can make use of other feats and abilities that affect your manifesting...

[Kalaska'Agathas]

If your Schism has access to your feats (which it should) then yes, it gets the bonus from Practiced Manifester, up to the limits therein described.

[Rubik]

If your Schism has access to your feats (which it should) then yes, it gets the bonus from Practiced Manifester, up to the limits therein described.Not getting access to your feats can cause problems, including Expanded Knowledge and a few others I can think of. And if the player took the feat just for Schism, he should gain some benefit from it.

[Silva Stormrage]

Yes this works, the feat increases the manifester level up to your HD. Schisim gets your feats (otherwise it couldn't apply metapsionics), thus it gets the +4 manifester levels up to hd. Since schism is -6 ML from hd that indeed makes it manifest at level -2.

[weckar]

BUT, let's be fair here: It can only get that benefit ONCE. If your manifester level would normally be higher because you have non-manifesting class levels, that bonus would go down by -1 for each.

[Silva Stormrage]

BUT, let's be fair here: It can only get that benefit ONCE. If your manifester level would normally be higher because you have non-manifesting class levels, that bonus would go down by -1 for each.

Oh yes, agreed. That doesn't seem to be the issue here though does it?

[kirerellim]

Oh man >< alright everything gets damage resist lol

[Nettlekid]

BUT, let's be fair here: It can only get that benefit ONCE. If your manifester level would normally be higher because you have non-manifesting class levels, that bonus would go down by -1 for each.

Is this something you have a basis for, or are just saying "Hey, this would be a good thing to houserule in." Because if the latter, then don't say "would go down" without any actual ruling for it.

In the case of a multiclass character, you'd choose which effect (Schism or PM) to apply first, and once it applies, it's done. So let's say you're a Psion 12/Cleric 8. Your ML is 12. If you took Practiced Manifester, you could apply it to yourself now (and have ML 16) and when you manifest Schism, it has ML 10. Or, you could manifest Schism (with ML 6) and apply PM to give yourself and the Schism ML 16 and 10, respectively, as in the first case. But what you CAN'T do is apply PM to yourself to boost yourself to ML 16, manifest Schism (with ML 10), and then once again apply PM, this time to the Schism, to give it ML 14. That's not how it works.

A similar argument arises with regard to Wild Mage and Practiced Spellcaster.

[weckar]

Here's what I mean. If you have full ranks in manifesting classes (say, 10), then PM would make the Schism 8 (10-6+4). If you had PM and ONE non-manifesting level, your natural manifesting level would be 11, but the Schism would still be 8 (10+1-6+3)

[Nettlekid]

Here's what I mean. If you have full ranks in manifesting classes (say, 10), then PM would make the Schism 8 (10-6+4). If you had PM and ONE non-manifesting level, your natural manifesting level would be 11, but the Schism would still be 8 (10+1-6+3)

You didn't specify any number of multiclass levels before, you just said "non-manifesting class levels" and then tacked -1 on as though the -1 applies no matter how many levels you have. Also, what do you mean by full ranks in manifesting classes? That doesn't make any sense at all.

Also that's not actually how it works. I think the numbers end up okay, but you're wrong in how it's applied (subtracting 1 from PM and the like.) In your case, you're a Manifester 10/other 1. PM bumps you up to ML 11, and then Schism is down to ML 5. You're trying to do the "Apply PM then Schism then apply PM again to Schism (but subtracting one from PM in an arbitrary ruling)" that I just said doesn't work. The best effect here would be to apply Schism before PM, so you have ML 10 and your Schism has ML 4, then apply PM to both yourself and your Schism, which gives you ML 11 and your Schism ML 8.

[weckar]

Excuse the semantics from a non-native speaker, okay? It works out, dunnit?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Ok I thought so lol they are already doing enough without that >< Their thrall is a dedicated crafter that constantly makes Liquid Salt and his characters main form of attack is Telekinetic Thrust. Do you know how many creatures have damage resist vs dessication?

You cannot 'make' liquid salt, you can only collect it from a red sea, a supernatural hazard detailed in Sandstorm. You can look on page 99 in Sandstorm and see under Special Substances and Items, most of them have a Craft (Alchemy) DC, but Liquid Salt does not have one because it cannot be crafted.

[kirerellim]

Oh thank god >< I saw the table and saw the wrong numbers for that line. I'm sure he'll switch to something else along those lines, but at least it won't be dissicating.

[Nettlekid]

Excuse the semantics from a non-native speaker, okay? It works out, dunnit?

The numbers you said worked out, but it's nothing to do with the language, you were misapplying the order of the feats/powers, rewriting one of them arbitrarily in order to make the numbers work. As this question is about how the power and feat work, how they work is kind of important.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Here's what I mean. If you have full ranks in manifesting classes (say, 10), then PM would make the Schism 8 (10-6+4). If you had PM and ONE non-manifesting level, your natural manifesting level would be 11, but the Schism would still be 8 (10+1-6+3)

I'm not certain that this is the case. The equation (as I am seeing it) would be x=m-6+b, where x is the Schism's Manifester Level, m is the Manifester's Manifester Level (with all applicable bonuses), and b is the total of the Bonuses which apply to the Schism.

The question is, which bonuses apply where?

[weckar]

The numbers you said worked out, but it's nothing to do with the language, you were misapplying the order of the feats/powers, rewriting one of them arbitrarily in order to make the numbers work. As this question is about how the power and feat work, how they work is kind of important.

No need to get hostile. And it is hardly arbitrary. I just split the +4 into a +1 and +3 for legibility. Let me try again.

10 Manifester levels, no non-manifester levels, PM:
Base Effective Manifester level = (10 +4 max 10)=10
Schism Level = (10-6+4 max 10)=8

10 Manifester levels, 1 non-manifester level, PM:
Base Effective Manifester level = (10 +4 max 11)=11
Schism Level = (10-6+4 max 11)=8

Better?

[Kalaska'Agathas]

No need to get hostile. And it is hardly arbitrary. I just split the +4 into a +1 and +3 for legibility. Let me try again.

10 Manifester levels, no non-manifester levels, PM:
Base Effective Manifester level = (10 +4 max 10)=10
Schism Level = (10-6+4 max 10)=8

10 Manifester levels, 1 non-manifester level, PM:
Base Effective Manifester level = (10 +4 max 11)=11
Schism Level = (10-6+4 max 11)=8

Better?

Again, I don't think that's the case. If you manifest Schism at ML 11, your Schism should manifest at 11-6+b, which in this case would be 4, for a total ML of 9. Schism doesn't care what your "Base Effective Manifester level" is. Does that make Schism get weird when interacting with ML boosters? Apparently so.

[weckar]

But then you are applying the effect of PM twice, which is the issue I'm trying to avoid.

[Rubik]

So, what happens if the manifester has, say, a few iterations of Psionic Talent and manifests Schism (which should get those feats as well)?

[Sith_Happens]

Your second mind can manifest powers using your power point reserve, but only as if your manifester level were six lower than it is.


Your manifester level for the chosen manifesting class increases by four.

The Schism's manifester level is purely a function of your own. Practiced Manifester increases your manifester level, not the Schism's. Ergo, it does not narrow the gap between the Schism's manifester level and yours.

[Rubik]

The Schism's manifester level is purely a function of your own. Practiced Manifester increases your manifester level, not the Schism's. Ergo, it does not narrow the gap between the Schism's manifester level and yours.But if the Schism gains Practiced manifester, the "yours" refers to the Schism.

Pronouns, yo.

[Artillery]

So, what happens if the manifester has, say, a few iterations of Psionic Talent and manifests Schism (which should get those feats as well)?

Can you take the same trait multiple time?

[Ramza00]

Your player is doing it wrong, he should uses schism to manifest a low level power such as synchronicity. Synchronicity allows gives his main mind a free readied action (any abilitiy with a standard or move action casting time) the main mind then uses the ready action to manifest a power at his full ml. Sure it costs 3 pp for the most flexible option, but it is well worth it.

[Rubik]

Can you take the same trait multiple time?Do you mean feat? Because:


Psionic Talent [Psionic]
You gain additional power points to supplement those you already had.

Prerequisite
Having a power point reserve.

Benefit
When you take this feat for the first time, you gain 2 power points.

Special
You can take this feat multiple times. Each time you take the feat after the first time, the number of power points you gain increases by 1.Note the last bit.

[StreamOfTheSky]

You should treat the Schism's adjusted ML as its HD cap, so that Practiced Manifester does nothing. I know there are other spells that give you something like a 2/3 HD (or whatever) version of yourself; Schism should be ruled to be like that.

Let him pick a different feat if he only took it for this exploit. Schism's already plenty good, it doesn't need help.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

But then you are applying the effect of PM twice, which is the issue I'm trying to avoid.

If the Schism has access to your feats, it would seem that Practiced Manifester applies twice. I think it would be problematic to deny it access to your feats - this would mean no manifesting powers learned via Expanded Knowledge (as Rubik has pointed out), among other issues - which has the side effect of potentially boosting the Schism's ML twice.

[Curmudgeon]

Special: You can take this feat multiple times. Each time you take the feat after the first time, the number of power points you gain increases by 1.
Note the last bit.
Because of the many meanings of "gain", this is contentious. Is it synonymous with "add", or synonymous with "attain"?

There does indeed need to be a Special section for the feat, because the default is that having the feat n+1 times gives you exactly the same as having it 1 time; that would normally mean 1+0+0+0+ ... (total) PPs added. But what's the meaning of this particular Special statement? Do you net an additional 1 PP (1+1+1+1+ ... total) each time you take the feat, or is there a quadratic increase (1+2+3+ ... total)?

Each individual DM will have to decide this one.

[Sith_Happens]

But if the Schism gains Practiced manifester, the "yours" refers to the Schism.

Pronouns, yo.

The Schism doesn't have any feats, only you do. The distinction doesn't matter for Expanded Knowledge or Metapsionic feats because the Schism is mooching off of your own powers known, but for Practiced Manifester it's important.

[Rubik]

The Schism doesn't have any feats, only you do. The distinction doesn't matter for Expanded Knowledge or Metapsionic feats because the Schism is mooching off of your own powers known, but for Practiced Manifester it's important.Citation please.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

The Schism doesn't have any feats, only you do. The distinction doesn't matter for Expanded Knowledge or Metapsionic feats because the Schism is mooching off of your own powers known, but for Practiced Manifester it's important.

Why should it be able to use your Metapsionic feats and not you Practiced Manifester? If you're not going to let it have your feats, I get that, but I don't get the argument for selective access.

[Sith_Happens]

Why should it be able to use your Metapsionic feats and not you Practiced Manifester? If you're not going to let it have your feats, I get that, but I don't get the argument for selective access.

Okay, maybe Metapsionics are a bit iffier.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

If I could propose a corollary question: what benefit, if any, does a Schism receive from ML boosting items a character is wearing? Do they simply add to the ML-6 equation, or does the Schism get a Manifester Level boost from them itself?

[Sith_Happens]

If I could propose a corollary question: what benefit, if any, does a Schism receive from ML boosting items a character is wearing? Do they simply add to the ML-6 equation, or does the Schism get a Manifester Level boost from them itself?

They add to your ML, which the Schism's is then 6 less than.

[Fortuna]

I'm pretty sure that the Schism doesn't have its own manifester level to which it can apply Practiced Manifester. It says...

Your second mind can manifest powers using your power point reserve, but only as if your manifester level were six lower than it is.

The second mind manifests as if your manifester level were six lower than it is. Now, it seems fairly obvious to me that before that calculation can be completed, you need to work out what your manifester level actually is, which is where Practiced Manifester comes in. Then the schism, when it comes to manifest a power, will check your actual manifester level, and manifest as though it were six lower. Practiced Manifester won't do anything unless you've lost levels from your primary manifester level, since it applies to your actual manifester level, which is calculated before schism subtracts six.

[kirerellim]

^

This is what my original thought was lol

[Phelix-Mu]

A good way to think about it is that the schism isn't a separate creature. It's part of the manifester. It can only benefit from feats in the way the manifester can; if the manifester gains no benefit from PM, neither does the schism.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

A good way to think about it is that the schism isn't a separate creature. It's part of the manifester. It can only benefit from feats in the way the manifester can; if the manifester gains no benefit from PM, neither does the schism.

The trouble with that is, if the manifester suddenly faced a -6 penalty to their ML, Practiced Manifester might then apply (assuming that, with a -6, their ML would be less than their HD).

[Fortuna]

The trouble with that is, if the manifester suddenly faced a -6 penalty to their ML, Practiced Manifester might then apply (assuming that, with a -6, their ML would be less than their HD).

True, but the second mind doesn't take a -6 penalty to its ML. It just manifests as if your manifester level was lower.