Sub-optimizing a wizard

[Saintsqc]

Hey everyone!

I play a half-elf lvl 4 wizard, lvl 2 master specialist. The wizard is a focus specialist in conjuration. His stats are :
-str : 12
-dex : 12
-con : 12
-int : 18
-sag : 12
-cha : 8
Core manuals, complete series and ToB are allowed.

I dont really care about optimization. Half of my groups is made by beginners and we care more about role playing than how powerful our character are.

I'm looking for a way to allow my character to use armors without casting penalties. I know it's useless, but I want to do it anyway.

I'm thinking about taking some levels as a "armored mage" (fighter variant, complete mage). Then, I will stake "battle caster" feat until I can use heavy armors without penalties. Is there a better way to go? I mean, how can I get to use heavy armors without casting penalties as quick as possible with my wizard?

Finally, what feats can I pick to take advantage of the few fighter's levels?

[weckar]

Welll.... you could just take one level of a class that gives full armor and specialize in non-somatic spells?

EDIT: specifically, if you take Warblade, you could even qualify for Jade Phoenix Mage later.

[Particle_Man]

If you really don't care about optimizing you could take Still Spell and apply it to all of your spell slots above level 0. Then wear heavy armour from level 1! :smallsmile:

[Zanos]

Reducing ASF:
Twilight(-10%, +1 Property, MIC)
Mithral(-10%, various, Core)
Githcraft(-5%, ~300 g, DMG II)
Feycraft(-5%, ~300 g, DMG II)
Spellsword 1(-10%, Complete Warrior)

There's some other stuff, but that's what I can remember off the top of my head. Someone with one level of spellsword could wear +1 Twilight Mithral Githcraft Full-Plate with no spell failure.

[tyckspoon]

Within the exact restrictions of 'Core, Completes, ToB' I think you basically have to sink multiple levels into Spellsword. If you have more available than that, you can buy a lot of ASF reduction as mentioned by Zanos (although he forgot the Thistledown Padding, +250 gp to cost of armor -5% Races of the Wild.) Armored Mage alternate feature is a non-starter; you give up too much toward what you want to achieve, even if you claim to be ok being non-optimized.. not only is it limited to spells of (Fighter level)+1, it sacrifices medium and heavy armor proficiency. That's a bit counterproductive when your goal is 'wear heavy armor'.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You could take a level of Spellthief with the feat Master Spellthief to be able to cast in light armor.

You can get a +1 Mithral Chain Shirt with the Twilight magic property detailed in PH2 and BoED, which costs another +1 and reduces the arcane spell failure by 10%. That has a natural 0% arcane spell failure chance. A suit of +1 Twilight Mithral Breastplate with a Thistledown Suit detailed in RotW also has a natural 0% arcane spell failure chance.

You can also get a Mithral Buckler for no drawbacks.

Just get a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend and a 1st level Pearl of Power, and use them to cast Mage armor twice per day.

[Captnq]

Bondleaf Wrap.

Okay, only a AC 1, but it's a living leaf that is bonded to your body and wraps and unwraps around you as a free mental action.

No ACP, No MDB, No ASF.

Or get a beekeeper outfit. No AC, but no penalties either. Enchant the heck out of it.

[Captnq]

You know, theoretical mind you... If you want to go for STYLE and don't mind burning your WBL to the ground...

THAALUD STONE ARMOR

- ANAUROCH: THE EMPIRE OF SHADE (3.5)
Heavy Armor
[Stone]
Cost: 2,800 gp
Armor Bonus: +12
Max Dex Bonus: +0
Armor Check Penalty: -8
Arcane Spell Failure: 40%
Speed: 20 ft/15 ft
Weight: 180 lbs
Editor: What can you say about the best suit of armor you can buy. The only thing that comes close is nightscale, and you would need a Dex of 30 to take full advantage of it. As a druid, you could replace the metal joints with darkwood. Otherwise, massive AC, no dex bonus., The ACP could be worse, and the ASF is a 40. So with Githcraft, Thistledown, blended quartz, and twilight (+1 ASA), you could get the ASF down to 0. Add halfweight for a +3 ASA and it becomes light armor and you can move at normal speed in it (or wear it as a barbarian). The only ones who won’t like this are high dex characters and skill monkey’s. The weight is a bit of a pain, but a good fighter maxes out his Str anyways. If you want raw AC, this is the best armor you can buy, and it isn’t the most expensive, either. Mechanus Gear is actually a step down in almost every way. You’d think something that was made of gears and crap would be top of the line, but nope.

But it's outside your parameters. Cool as hell though. Massive stone suit of armor you can run in as light armor, sleep in it like light armor... with halfweight, but c'mon, it weights 180 lbs, you know you're going to get halfweight.

[Jergmo]

In two levels you could take a level in Spellsword and have a mithral chain shirt, plus a buckler or heavy shield with 5% failure chance. That, or take one level in a full BAB class that has something helpful.

[eggynack]

I don't know if this form of removing optimization is really relevant to how powerful a wizard is. Realistically, if you want a wizard that isn't overpowered, then you need a mediocre spell list. As long as you have a strong list of spells, and the wizard levels necessary to make use of it, you'll be really high-powered in the majority of campaigns. So, I guess you should pick spells that aren't the best. Maybe toss out a lot of blasting and mediocre buffs like bull's strength. That could manage it.

[Saintsqc]

Thx for all the feedbacks! It gives me food for thought, I like that :smallsmile:

However, let's say I want to take some fighter level nonetheless, how can I make a good use of it? I like the idea of having a "hybrid" character. My spell list gives me great versatility and my fighter's side give me a better resistance and some utility in fight.

Actually, I spend some rounds doing nothing in fights. I dont like to spam spells in battle, in case I need them more in later situations (ie : glitterdust in another encounter or fly to solve a problem). I always stay behind because I have low AC and low HP. I would like to use the fighter class to improve my AC, HP and I could help my allies better by being in the melee.

Is there a way I can make a versalite conjurer not so bad in the melee (without spending half of my spell slots to buff myself)?


I don't know if this form of removing optimization is really relevant to how powerful a wizard is. Realistically, if you want a wizard that isn't overpowered, then you need a mediocre spell list. As long as you have a strong list of spells, and the wizard levels necessary to make use of it, you'll be really high-powered in the majority of campaigns. So, I guess you should pick spells that aren't the best. Maybe toss out a lot of blasting and mediocre buffs like bull's strength. That could manage it.

Wizards are good, and I have a solid spell list. I dont need to worry about being optimized to keep up with my group. I can take decision base on my PC's background, even if it doesnt help at all, and my character will be just fine.

[Teapot Salty]

Hey everyone!

I play a half-elf lvl 4 wizard, lvl 2 master specialist. The wizard is a focus specialist in conjuration. His stats are :
-str : 12
-dex : 12
-con : 12
-int : 18
-sag : 12
-cha : 8
Core manuals, complete series and ToB are allowed.

I dont really care about optimization. Half of my groups is made by beginners and we care more about role playing than how powerful our character are.

I'm looking for a way to allow my character to use armors without casting penalties. I know it's useless, but I want to do it anyway.

I'm thinking about taking some levels as a "armored mage" (fighter variant, complete mage). Then, I will stake "battle caster" feat until I can use heavy armors without penalties. Is there a better way to go? I mean, how can I get to use heavy armors without casting penalties as quick as possible with my wizard?

Finally, what feats can I pick to take advantage of the few fighter's levels?
You could just get it house ruled if your dm allowed it. Out of curiousity why 1/2 elf, human is just plain better, I get that your not optimizing though, flavor I'm guessing?

[eggynack]

Wizards are good, and I have a solid spell list. I dont need to worry about being optimized to keep up with my group. I can take decision base on my PC's background, even if it doesnt help at all, and my character will be just fine.
If I'm not mistaken, you're kinda saying the exact opposite of what I'm saying. I'm saying that you can crap up your character all you want, but if you still have that solid spell list, you're still full of optimization juice. So, if you want to tone things down, I'm suggesting that the spell list is where you should start. A wizard could take skill focus (basket weaving) and monkey grip until the end of time, and still be completely overpowered.

[HammeredWharf]

The thread title is probably a bit misleading. In this case, being suboptimal is ok, but not the goal. After all, he is a focused specialist conjurer with master specialist levels.

To be good in melee, you could buff your familiar and ride it. Take Improved Familiar, get a medium-sized creature, polymorph it into something and whack things. It should work quite well (maybe too well) in a low-op game.

[Saintsqc]

You could just get it house ruled if your dm allowed it. Out of curiousity why 1/2 elf, human is just plain better, I get that your not optimizing though, flavor I'm guessing?

Yeah, simply for favor!



The thread title is probably a bit misleading. In this case, being suboptimal is ok, but not the goal. After all, he is a focused specialist conjurer with master specialist levels.

To be good in melee, you could buff your familiar and ride it. Take Improved Familiar, get a medium-sized creature, polymorph it into something and whack things. It should work quite well (maybe too well) in a low-op game.

You are right, the title is misleading. The goal is not to suboptimized my character. I'm about to make decisions that will "weaken" my character, and I'm perfectly fine with it.

Riding my familiar could be fun. Never thought of that one!


If I'm not mistaken, you're kinda saying the exact opposite of what I'm saying. I'm saying that you can crap up your character all you want, but if you still have that solid spell list, you're still full of optimization juice. So, if you want to tone things down, I'm suggesting that the spell list is where you should start. A wizard could take skill focus (basket weaving) and monkey grip until the end of time, and still be completely overpowered.

I think the title is misleading and I didnt explain my goal clearly. My bad!

I know taking fighter's lvl is suboptimal, and I'm fine with it. I'm not trying to make my wizard as bad as possible! I'm just trying to find a way to develop my character the way I imagine it, even if it's not the way to optimization.

I like the picture of a guy whacking things in the heat of the melee and casting spells when it's the most needed to win the battle. I'm bored of playing the weakling in the background, close to die everytime creatures attack him. With an armor on, better attack rolls and more HP, he could jump in the melee and be somewhat effective.

[Fouredged Sword]

You are not that far off from a standard Gish build. A gish is a character who aims for +16 bab and 17+ caster levels. IE a wizard who can also fight.

going fighter 1 / Spellsword 1 will get you -10% arcane spell failure and +2 bab. Another good option is Abjurant Champion, who is a martial wizard who makes great use of the Shield and protection from X spell, learning to quicken them and increase the AC bonuses for free.

[Saintsqc]

You are not that far off from a standard Gish build. A gish is a character who aims for +16 bab and 17+ caster levels. IE a wizard who can also fight.

going fighter 1 / Spellsword 1 will get you -10% arcane spell failure and +2 bab. Another good option is Abjurant Champion, who is a martial wizard who makes great use of the Shield and protection from X spell, learning to quicken them and increase the AC bonuses for free.

A guish!! That's exactly what I'm looking for! I didnt know a guish was a wizard who can also fight. Awesome, thanks!

[Particle_Man]

You might also want to look at Duskblade, a single-classed gish build. Psychic Warrior is another (although that is psionic gish instead of magic gish).

[Firechanter]

The Spellthief route detailed above is expensive (1 level and 2 feats) but allows you to wear Mithral Fullplate without ASF.

The simplest Gish is taking a level of Fighter and then Eldritch Knight. That in itself does nothing for ASF, but you can combine it with any of the other methods.

[Fouredged Sword]

Well, if you want to be a gish, the best solution is likely one of the two following options.

You are a wizard 4 / Master Specialist 2. That means 3bab and 6HD. 14 levels left to play with.

Ether A
Ruathar 3 / abjurant champion 5 / Eldritch Knight 6 for +16bab and 19 levels of wizard casting

OR B
Fighter 1 / Spellsword 1 / Abjurant champion 5 / Spell sword 2 / Eldrich Knight 5 for +17 bab and 17 levels of wizard casting, but with the ability to use mithral twilight platemail and proficiency with all martial weapons and armor.