Why do people stick around?

[jguy]

I mean specifically clerics and wizards. I am speaking of the spell Plane Shift. Level 5 spell for clerics and level 7 for wizards. Once a caster gets access to that spell, why would they stay around on the material plane? When there are literally 3 Heavens (in 3.5 and Pathfinder I mean) where you can find the perfect paradise for you, why bother staying on the material plane? I feel it would be a good litmus test for characters for "If you could go to heaven without dying, why stick around on earth?" It also begs to question why high level villains that are casters exist? You could conquer the world and get whatever you want...or you could plane shift to heaven and get whatever you want too.

[Glimbur]

Some say it's better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven. If you start planeshifting around, you have to establish yourself all over again and there are either outsiders or people powerful enough to planehop. Whereas if you stay on Boring Plane 12473 you can be the big cheese.

As for why Good people stick around, there are lots of reasons. Maybe they want to protect someone/something on their home plane. Maybe their rival is still there. And the sort of person driven enough to become powerful enough to Planeshift might not choose to retire.

[Eldariel]

Actively good people want to protect the good people outside heavens. If I had the ability to ascend to Celestia, I wouldn't do so until I'm certain there's nothing more I can do to make Terra more to good's favor. Overall, I'd say the struggle between good and evil is the most important thing; contested planes like Material need people working for Good and Evil for the multiverse to exist. If all the powerful presentatives of one party take their leave and set up a camp in heavens, I can only imagine things would go horribly on a cosmical scale, to the point the heavens themselves may be threatened.

[Kane0]

When there are literally 3 Heavens (in 3.5 and Pathfinder I mean) where you can find the perfect paradise for you, why bother staying on the material plane...or you could plane shift to heaven and get whatever you want too.

That's pretty audacious, not to mention more than a little vain. That character is deciding that he's good enough for heaven and going there before he dies and his soul is judged/sent to the correct afterlife. People like that are generally the people not really judged 'worthy'.

Then again humility isn't actually isn't stated in D&D to hold a lot of importance, so it may well be possible.

My suggestion is to run a campaign using this idea as an experiment.

[jguy]

Here is also a question. When you die, your soul is judged and sent to wherever, however, do the residence of the plane know the difference between a soul and a mortal plane shifting? Do they have the ability to judge at a glance a person worthiness? Perhaps the LG heaven would be very strict about it but what about the NG or CG heaven? Might not be so uptight about the rules.

Also, could you blame someone for wanting to retire? Say you are a cleric who slogged his way through 9 levels of muck and you worship a NG god. He doesn't want to die a grisly death and he decides to plane shift himself and his family to Elysium. Is he wrong to do so?

A wizard has to go even further! 13 levels of people trying to murder you. Who in their right mind keeps going when Heaven is 6 seconds away. Or not even heaven, whatever plane you feel bests suits you and you can live happily.

[AuraTwilight]

Because the world of the living is the world that matters. If you're a good person, you're going to Heaven ANYWAY, so you might as well make the mortal world as good as possible to make Heaven all the sweeter, since the D&D Outer Planes are influenced by the Material Plane.

And if you're not good, well...you don't want to go to Heaven because it's not suited for you; evil people see planes like Baator as their personal paradise because they can revel in their base desires without being punished for it.

[CIDE]

Be fun to see what a completely 110% optimized high level party could do if they decided to plane shift into evil planes and see how many demons/devils they can utterly destroy.

[Zanos]

Petitioners in the upper planes lose the majority of their memories.

If you move yourself whole into the upper planes, I highly doubt you'll be allowed to just chill out there.

[jguy]

And if you're not good, well...you don't want to go to Heaven because it's not suited for you; evil people see planes like Baator as their personal paradise because they can revel in their base desires without being punished for it.

I theorize that considering heaven is infinite and there are gods of love, discipline, and punishment, that there is a place for anyone there, no matter how base their desire is. Remember, angels of DR, many have fast healing or regeneration, they are ageless, and forgiveness and redemption is their shtick.

I guess it comes down to a catch 22. If you are one to deserve heaven, you don't want it, if you want it you don't deserve it. This is in a DnD sense, not modern day religion fyi. Don't want this locked up for confusion.

[jguy]

Petitioners in the upper planes lose the majority of their memories.

If you move yourself whole into the upper planes, I highly doubt you'll be allowed to just chill out there.

I don't remember reading where petitioners lose their memories, could you point out where that is?

To your second point, there are tons of adventures involving plane hopping, I don't see why retiring there before death is wrong. Perhaps in the LG heaven but if you go to the NG heaven after 9 or 13 levels of killing and saving people, who are they to say to you "You need to do more, you haven't done enough. You need to die violently before you get your peace." This is talking about adventurers I mean.

[YossarianLives]

Chances are you'd get booted out before long.

[jedipotter]

I mean specifically clerics and wizards. I am speaking of the spell Plane Shift. Level 5 spell for clerics and level 7 for wizards. Once a caster gets access to that spell, why would they stay around on the material plane?

This is a lot like asking, why don't more people live in paradise? There are nice, warm places with lots of beaches.....yet millions live elsewhere. And some of them millions live in some of the worst environments on Earth. For that matter why do people live on flood plains, below sea level or places like Tornado Alley?


Though this is a bit of a philosophic question: would you want to go to heaven? Sure it is great, but it is also too great. Life without all the bad stuff is not life at all. And heaven is just good, good, good and more good.

[Rubik]

Though this is a bit of a philosophic question: would you want to go to heaven? Sure it is great, but it is also too great. Life without all the bad stuff is not life at all. And heaven is just good, good, good and more good.Um... I'm pretty sure that if some Good is good, more Good is better, by definition. There is such a thing as "too much of a good thing," but that's "good," not "Good," which is infinitely better than "good."

[jguy]

This is a lot like asking, why don't more people live in paradise? There are nice, warm places with lots of beaches.....yet millions live elsewhere. And some of them millions live in some of the worst environments on Earth. For that matter why do people live on flood plains, below sea level or places like Tornado Alley?


Though this is a bit of a philosophic question: would you want to go to heaven? Sure it is great, but it is also too great. Life without all the bad stuff is not life at all. And heaven is just good, good, good and more good.

Thing is, a lot of people are too poor to move among other things. We're talking about D&D where wizards and clerics can bend reality with the snap of their fingers because they murdered enough monsters. It would be more apt to say how many millionaires live in terrible places? Most of them do live in paradise i.e beaches, warm places.

For the second part, that might make a great backstory for a character. Say the campaign starts out at high level, either 9+ or 13+. One guy is very enlightened, patient, and sees the best in everyone. Turns out, he has spend last 500+ years in heaven and has gone above base desire and has come back down to better the world. Kinda like in OotS heaven, once you get bored with carnal desires you climb the mountain for something more.

[Vogonjeltz]

Here is also a question. When you die, your soul is judged and sent to wherever, however, do the residence of the plane know the difference between a soul and a mortal plane shifting? Do they have the ability to judge at a glance a person worthiness? Perhaps the LG heaven would be very strict about it but what about the NG or CG heaven? Might not be so uptight about the rules.

Also, could you blame someone for wanting to retire? Say you are a cleric who slogged his way through 9 levels of muck and you worship a NG god. He doesn't want to die a grisly death and he decides to plane shift himself and his family to Elysium. Is he wrong to do so?

A wizard has to go even further! 13 levels of people trying to murder you. Who in their right mind keeps going when Heaven is 6 seconds away. Or not even heaven, whatever plane you feel bests suits you and you can live happily.

Don't those who go to planes like Elysium gradually lose themselves? I seem to remember something along those lines.

[Cruiser1]

Don't those who go to planes like Elysium gradually lose themselves? I seem to remember something along those lines.
Actually, Elysium has the entrapping quality on mortals. Therefore if you plane shift to Elysium, you may find yourself converted into a petitioner whether you like it or not, making the result the same as if you died on the material plane.

Petitioners on Elysium actually have MORE of their memories. Most petitioners are converted into 2 HD creatures without their memories and feats, which is unfortunate for a powerful character. However Elysium petitioners have a wistful memory of their former lives, which translates as being able to preserve 4 character levels instead. So your NG Wizard gets to cast 2nd level spells in the afterlife instead of just 1st level spells.

[Vogonjeltz]

Actually, Elysium has the entrapping quality on mortals. Therefore if you plane shift to Elysium, you may find yourself converted into a petitioner whether you like it or not, making the result the same as if you died on the material plane.

Petitioners on Elysium actually have MORE of their memories. Most petitioners are converted into 2 HD creatures without their memories and feats, which is unfortunate for a powerful character. However Elysium petitioners have a wistful memory of their former lives, which translates as being able to preserve 4 character levels instead. So your NG Wizard gets to cast 2nd level spells in the afterlife instead of just 1st level spells.

Right, so doesn't this fundamentally answer the original question? People don't go to the outer planes (if they know better) because it is more dangerous than the material one.

[The Insanity]

The one-eyed is a king among blind. On the Material Plane they're the hot ****. In heaven or whatever they're just some mortal.

[veti]

Possibly the authorities (i.e. gods) on the outer planes get a bit - shirty with people just moving in without going through the proper procedures. Visiting is one thing, but if you plan to stay - you can expect a visit from an immigration officer, possibly carrying a 60' flaming sword or something.


This is a lot like asking, why don't more people live in paradise? There are nice, warm places with lots of beaches.....yet millions live elsewhere. And some of them millions live in some of the worst environments on Earth. For that matter why do people live on flood plains, below sea level or places like Tornado Alley?

Space. There is only so much land on earth, and most of it isn't in those highly desirable places you mention. The nice spots were generally among the first places people settled, but then the population grew and the other people needed somewhere to live.

Population pressure has been the cause of, basically, every war everywhere ever.

[Vrock_Summoner]

It's about the scale of things that get you to such high levels, I think.

High-level D&D isn't a game about lazy and apathetic... Well, anybody, villains heroes or otherwise. As a simple fundamental principle of doing the things that get you to levels where Plane Shift becomes viable, it is nearly impossible to br the type to want to retire. Because you can spend your entire life fighting to earn your next meal and be level 3 at the end of it all. You can arrogantly prove your superior arcane might and maybe end up level 6.

Why? Because almost by necessity, if you're facing down eldritch horrors that can break the concepts of everything that you thought was reality, situations that make the magical arts look mundane and simple, and trials of faith and friendship where bonds of loyalty will decide the fate of an entire continent or even world? You have CONVICTIONS. Even the Evil people who get to this point are motivated beyond belief. It is just nearly impossible from an in-character standpoint to get that far unless you have a strong driving force.

Plus, not everyone wants to go to heaven. It's probably pretty boring up there, especially for people accustomed to dungeon diving and slaying monsters.

And even if you might like paradise, think about it. YOU'RE A CASTER. Clerics of any alignment will have things their deities want them to accomplish in the material plane, while wizards... Well, it's less concrete a reason, but if you got to be a 13th-level wizard (a humongous, legendary, almost unbelievable feat) you might be more interested in continuing to amass power and study ancient and fascinating, powerful tomes and items, since those personality traits got you this far in the first place. Heaven rather loses its novelty when all the stuff that actually interests you is somewhere, anywhere else.

[Erik Vale]

What about sorcerers?

But yes, by level 13, your supposed to be one of the world's bada$$es, it's 'Big Goods', it's 'Notable People'.

The rules say so in legend lore.

[Vrock_Summoner]

What about sorcerers?

But yes, by level 13, your supposed to be one of the world's bada$$es, it's 'Big Goods', it's 'Notable People'.

The rules say so in legend lore.

Well, sorcerers tend to be ambitious too, but in different ways. Especially given their high Cha, which lends itself to a strong spirit and thus even stronger convictions. Still, they've got the shakiest reasons to stick around, but hey; the only thing that matters is that a relevant number of these characters are sticking around. I'm sure there are the occasional casters who DO just say "screw it" and retire. I'm only arguing that it's not the logical norm.

[Namfuak]

For arcane casters, they might prefer to wait until 17th level and genesis themselves a nice cushy plane all to themselves to live in. In addition, just because someone is a spellcaster does not mean that they do not like the adventuring life. And for evil characters, there is even more incentive to stay out of the Hells, since they might want to continue their evil deeds in a place where most of the inhabitants cannot best them.

[Fyermind]

My general assumption is that at every level most NPCs either retire or die and very few advance to the next level. PCs tend to have strong convictions, but they also retire or die eventually. That's okay and natural. Certainly where or why they retire might change as they gain access to plane shifting abilities, but it does not strain my belief that just as many characters (by percentage) would end their adventuring days at level 8 as at level 9 as at level 10.

[Captnq]

Be fun to see what a completely 110% optimized high level party could do if they decided to plane shift into evil planes and see how many demons/devils they can utterly destroy.

I ran this. I have three words for you.

Swarm Of Demiliches

The players ran SCREAMING back home.

[AuraTwilight]

I theorize that considering heaven is infinite and there are gods of love, discipline, and punishment, that there is a place for anyone there, no matter how base their desire is. Remember, angels of DR, many have fast healing or regeneration, they are ageless, and forgiveness and redemption is their shtick.

I guess it comes down to a catch 22. If you are one to deserve heaven, you don't want it, if you want it you don't deserve it. This is in a DnD sense, not modern day religion fyi. Don't want this locked up for confusion.

There's a bit of a difference between supernatural S&M and wanting to brutally murder orphans and/or make innocents suffer forever and ever and ever and ever out of desire for the power to enslave and torture others with no hope of their ever escaping you.

[BWR]

The planes are a nice place to visit but you wouldn't want to live there.
Sure people can be powerful and might have vacation homes but some people really are the type to return to the small town they grew up in and hang out there when they retire, or they just don't care about taking over anything bigger than the a world.

[Zombimode]

And if you're not good, well...you don't want to go to Heaven because it's not suited for you; evil people see planes like Baator as their personal paradise because they can revel in their base desires without being punished for it.

Thats not how it works. Hell is hell because it's undesirable for everyone. In Hell, it's always you who gets the short end of the stick. In Hell, the joke is always on you.

[Erik Vale]

:smallconfused: Asmodeus/other devils would like a word with you.

However, I agree that evil people tend not to think hell as pleasant, and those that do normally become lemures, which are, you know, mindless... :smallamused:

[Zombimode]

:smallconfused: Asmodeus/other devils would like a word with you.

And this contradict my statement... how, exactly?

[Erik Vale]

Asmodeus want's to be there, the entire thing about the pact was him going to hell to do a job and amassing huge amounts of power while doing so, to everyone else's surprise. Asmodeus in no way has the short end of the stick, and I know of no joke on him.

Then there are the variety of devils who live to torture mortal souls or manipulate events, I think the torturers are having plenty of fun, and manipulates are probably enjoying themselves thoroughly. At worst you can say the joke is on them in what they had to go through, but after a while with the sort end of the stick, they're holding a pretty decent end, if not the long end.

[The Insanity]

Asmodeus want's to be there, the entire thing about the pact was him going to hell to do a job and amassing huge amounts of power while doing so, to everyone else's surprise. Asmodeus in no way has the short end of the stick, and I know of no joke on him.
I think he meant mortals, not creatures that actually live and work there. At least it was pretty clear to me. :smallconfused:

[prufock]

Have you ever been to the outer planes? Those beings are insufferable.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Plenty of people truly believe in heaven yet they don't commit suicide to get there sooner. The exact same reasoning can be applied to planeshift. Additionally the place on Heaven plane X where the dead reside might not be accessible without dying.

Reaching the level required to cast planeshift could also take a life time anyway... unless your an adventurer in which case paradise isn't your goal.

But perhaps most importantly.

"It's just as beautiful where we are, It's more beautiful, because it's life; and you only get a little bit of it. And if you don't live every day of your life to the fullest, you have an eternity to regret it."

Props to whomever can recognize here I lifted that quote from without using a search engine.

[Sam K]

Well, lets be realistic here. Once you're a lvl 13 wizard, what exactly can heaven offer you that you can't get yourself?

Seriously, at these levels, you're not exactly hurting for material things or status. You have money and power, and quite likely fame (or infamy). If you have access to plane shift, you have access to other magic too. Most things that you cant get in the material plane, you wont be able to get in heaven either. See, even though heaven may be perfect, YOU still wont be. You are still mortal and you still have all these human (or elven, or dwarven, or feral warforged half celestial) glands and urges and drives and traumas stoping you from being happy. Well, maybe not glands, in the case of warforged... The point is, if you could never find peace of mind because your father didn't approve of you, heaven cant fix that (unless daddy is a petitioner and realised he was a stubborn old fool, but in that case, you could probably be happy in the prime once you resolved that). If you never feel like you're worthy of being loved, heaven can throw an army of adoring petitioners (or solars, if that's what you're into) who think you are the best thing since smite evil at you, and you STILL wont feel like you're worthy.

Also, you may be welcome in heaven as a mortal with plane shift, but you wont belong. Using the OotS example, if Roy had been plane shifted to heaven, there wouldn't be an archon to show him around. Heaven is of infinite size, so he might not be able to find HIS loved ones. Even if he was of a class that's good for something beyond hitting stuff with a big metal stick, and could locate his family, it might not be so easy. Heaven is designed for petitioners, and all that biology you have might cause you some problems. How long can you stand being around beings who's **** LITTERALY do not stink? It can be rough being a mortal around beings who urinate positive energy, fart rose petals, excrement cinnamon buns and ejaculate rainbows (not to mention how embarassing this can make some dates...)

All in all, nice place to visit, but you wouldn't want to live there.

[Cirrylius]

Sure it is great, but it is also too great. Life without all the bad stuff is not life at all.
That's what Arborea, Ysgard, and the Beastlands are for :smallbiggrin:


evil people see planes like Baator as their personal paradise because they can revel in their base desires without being punished for it.

Hell is hell because it's undesirable for everyone. In Hell, it's always you who gets the short end of the stick. In Hell, the joke is always on you.
It's kind of either/or.

If you worship an evil god and you die, you get to be a petitioner in their realm, which generally isn't that bad.

If you're just evil and you die, then you're either a disincarnate soul, which generally goes unmolested, or you're a petitioner. And for petitioners... well, saying you're getting a reward because you can do whatever you want isn't exactly the whole story.

It's more like a criminal getting sent to an island prison and being mindwiped and losing all your relevent life skills, except all the "good" guards are outside, and all the inside guards are also prisoners who are bigger and stronger and smarter than you, and most are engaged in an endless gang war.

So yeah, technically you can do whatever you want, as long as you don't mind being kept inside by both the guards outside who hate you, and the guards inside who want to use you for their own ends. And as long as you don't mind potential freedom of action being the only consolation prize for being bullied or coerced into working for other prisoners who are just as bent as you, or being passed around for favors, or being tortured for fun, or being fed into the prison's furnace because you burn so good.

Hell's only a reward for people who are really really good at being evil. For everyone else, it's not much more than a slaughterhouse. Better to say Hell's neither a reward or punishment; it's just the consequence of being stuck on a plane full of people who are just like you.

[Erik Vale]

Plenty of people truly believe in heaven yet they don't commit suicide to get there sooner. The exact same reasoning can be applied to planeshift. Additionally the place on Heaven plane X where the dead reside might not be accessible without dying.


1: Some do, both just to end pain or to actually get to heavens etc.
2: Many religions have suicide as a big no no, sending you to a hell equivalent.
3: A bigger thing would be gods, which should be effectively omniscient in their realm, kicking you out/sending angels to remove you bodily.

[AuraTwilight]

Thats not how it works. Hell is hell because it's undesirable for everyone. In Hell, it's always you who gets the short end of the stick. In Hell, the joke is always on you.

This is explicitly untrue. Atleast some of the Demon Lords in the Abyss are former petitioners who acquired power. While the Outsiders of the evil planes will oppress you however possible, you are free to do the same, and the nature of the plane encourages it.

It's a world where everyone has the same moral and ethical philosophy as you do, and are validated for it by the universe around them. The more evil you are, the more successful you will be.

[Icewraith]

This is explicitly untrue. Atleast some of the Demon Lords in the Abyss are former petitioners who acquired power. While the Outsiders of the evil planes will oppress you however possible, you are free to do the same, and the nature of the plane encourages it.

It's a world where everyone has the same moral and ethical philosophy as you do, and are validated for it by the universe around them. The more evil you are, the more successful you will be.

The thing is, for every petitioner that makes it up to a real, full-fledged demon or devil, there's several million (possibly more) other petitioners being tormented or used as currency. And remember, becoming a dretch or lemure is still technically promotion to a full fledged outsider-even if you do make it up to rank one odds are good you'll just get sent off to get pasted in the blood war and then re-absorbed into the plane.

[The Insanity]

This is explicitly untrue. Atleast some of the Demon Lords in the Abyss are former petitioners who acquired power.
Yeah. But before they did that they had to go through... Hell. Pun intended. You think rising through demonic ranks is a joyride? Until you get to the top you are still subject to horrible life. Less horrible than those below you in power and station, but still horrible.

[Lord_Gareth]

Yeah. But before they did that they had to go through... Hell. Pun intended. You think rising through demonic ranks is a joyride? Until you get to the top you are still subject to horrible life. Less horrible than those below you in power and station, but still horrible.

Well that's sorta the point, really. Evil's ideology states that relying on others makes you weak and vulnerable to those same others taking what is yours - your power, your happiness, your security, your joy. Those things belong to you and only you should be defending them. The climb to the top sucks, sure, but the rewards are infinitely great. Just look at the mountain of achievements that Orcus gained in his post-mortal life, and he died as some generic POS CE sorcerer who sacrificed a couple of kids or something.

[Psyren]

Simply put, if your boss hired you for door-to-door sales then he presumably doesn't want you faffing around in his office all the time. This is true for clerics of all alignments.


Be fun to see what a completely 110% optimized high level party could do if they decided to plane shift into evil planes and see how many demons/devils they can utterly destroy.

I find it amusing that challenges of this nature almost invariably assume that the fiends don't optimize too, despite their intellect and long lifespans.

[Phelix-Mu]

While mortals of the appropriate alignment are probably welcome as one form or another of guest on the corresponding Outer Plane, I don't think the inhabitants really want bunches of still-living people from the Primes to come there to stay. Every capable mortal that leaves the Prime to go on permanent vacation is one less advocate the Powers That Be have on the Prime for Cause X, Y, or Z.

Thus, while visits are welcome (and can be a good opportunity to reinforce whatever principles the interested parties want a mortal to be fighting for), the gods and outsiders generally want mortals to go back home and do their whole personal lives thing back on the Prime, where the outsiders generally have a harder time having direct access (especially if there were no high-level casters on the Prime).

That said, powerful mortals with the proper patrons or allies probably can secure permanent residences by exchanging favors/spellcasting services/information. Some planes will obviously be more open to this than others (if you are strong enough to hack it on one of the Lower Planes, you probably will be allowed to stay...that doesn't mean they have to be nice to you, though).

[KoboldMasteRace]

I thought you were supposed to retire when you stopped having the capacity to acquire more power/wealth/contribution due to age or crippling... Getting into the higher caster levels is pretty much the opposite of that. Plane Shift is like a promotion: now the real work begins...

[Twilightwyrm]

I would imagine for the same reason that not all 13th level wizards and 9th level clerics don't just "retire" in general. Sure, at any point past a certain point on the WBL table, any mid to high level character could "retire", and life fairly comfortably for the rest of their life. Sure, at higher levels there are nicer places to retire to, but such clerics and wizards will continue to risk (increasingly) grisly death because there is something they are doing they feel matters. Whether it is protecting a community, seeking a lost birthright, seeking knowledge, fighting for a cause, gaining power, or indeed, taking over the world, said individual has a goal that drives them to continue doing things on this Plane of Existance. Sure, when said character decides they wish to retire, they may well Plane Shift to any of the given heavens, and potentially extend the invitation to their family or friends, but until then, whatever ambition they harbor simply won't let them.

[jguy]

There are a lot of good answers that I've gotten from all of you, thank you for that. My new take would be that people 'do' visit the heavenly planes as say a summer home but they don't retire there until either they die or everything they have set out to accomplish has been done and there is nothing left for them to do.

[NikitaDarkstar]

There is also the fact that until you die and become at least a petitioner to that plane you are, effectively an Outsider. So you probably don't want to stick around on that plane for he same reasons Outsiders don't want to stick around on the material plane. Such things as the place feeling slightly wrong (if the alignment doesn't match up perfectly), being actively harmful to you, the locals knowing it better, various spells simply being able to toss you back out, etc. You're not meant to want to stay until it's time for you to stay, and the planes are, in general, designed to make that clear in various subtle (and not so subtle) ways.

And then there's the simple case of why would you want to leave your home? Many people in real life don't want to move away from their friends, family, places they grew up in etc. (one US study showed most people never move further than 50 miles away from the place they grew up in). So why would someone want to move to an entire different plane of existence? Sure with magic it's easier to visit more frequently, but if you're going to visit that often, why did you leave in the first place?

On a slightly different note. I actually did have a wizard who just wanted to live a nice, peaceful life, just circumstances didn't permit it. At 18th level after the big baddie was killed etc. he did retire to a nice, peaceful teaching position at a mages college. :p

[Erik Vale]

he did retire to a nice, peaceful teaching position at a mages college.

Those exist? I thought mages colleges were full of rampant running experiments and apprentices blowing things/themselves up?

[BrokenChord]

Those exist? I thought mages colleges were full of rampant running experiments and apprentices blowing things/themselves up?

In fairness, by the time you reach level 18, a few low-level apprentices' experiments going wrong every so often is practically the definition of a peaceful but not boring existence. Low-level casters *usually* can't accidentally produce anything too dangerous, and medium-high level casters can *usually* cover their tracks if something does go horribly wrong.

[RegalKain]

The thing is, for every petitioner that makes it up to a real, full-fledged demon or devil, there's several million (possibly more) other petitioners being tormented or used as currency. And remember, becoming a dretch or lemure is still technically promotion to a full fledged outsider-even if you do make it up to rank one odds are good you'll just get sent off to get pasted in the blood war and then re-absorbed into the plane.

I'd argue that even by the DMG, the average lifespan of an adventurer is their first adventure. That's why PCs are a step above the rest, and anyone over level 13 is considered a legend or legendary. So sure there are several million (Possibly more) other people who can rise the ranks, the same is true for every single group of PCs ever, it's a story of the ones that "made it" the same could be said for being in D&D's heaven/hell, a story there is a bout a group who made it. It's why people (Most) don't play D&D and roleplay out farming for the next 50 years of their character's life where nothing interesting ever really happens, and they die of old age, or some random attack from some evil prick who casts Magic Missle and insta-gibs the commoner.

As for the question at hand, I've generally felt the reason the world isn't populated with "more" high-level people (As per RAW) other then the rampant death-rates, is because most people do "Graduate" to a higher cause, that Barbarian who worships Kord and is now level 15, is taken by Kord (Or an aspect of Kord) to serve Kord directly on another plane, either in battles, or something else, but that's more my Homebrew of how I run it, I don't consider every other plane the perfect happy rosey exsistence, especially not for the adventuring types. Most gods in D&D aren't kind, aren't loving wonderful beings, they are users and manipulaters, that's why they have Clerics and stuff on the mortal realm, to use them and further their own power and ensure balance maintains, a Cleric who planeshifts? His/Her God/Goddess simply sees them as ready to take the next step in their servitude, there is no rest for people like that. Wizards are on a slightly more shakey ground, to that I reply, Elminster, he serves Mystra, that's why he doesn't just go "lol peace" and leave everything behind to live in eternal happiness etc.

[NikitaDarkstar]

Those exist? I thought mages colleges were full of rampant running experiments and apprentices blowing things/themselves up?

Well it's more peaceful that saving the world from the personification of Chaos and it's avatar at least. Most days. It also helps if you avoid the evocation and transmutation faculties. And keep a few applications of energy immunity up at all times just in case. :p

Also as BrokenChord said, at level 18 you're not overly worried about a few apprentices messing things up. Even if as a necromancer botched experiments can get disturbing at any level... not difficult to deal with, just disturbing, and if they happen to close to lunch rather appetite killing. :p

[Vogonjeltz]

Simply put, if your boss hired you for door-to-door sales then he presumably doesn't want you faffing around in his office all the time. This is true for clerics of all alignments.



I find it amusing that challenges of this nature almost invariably assume that the fiends don't optimize too, despite their intellect and long lifespans.

Well Psyren, the fiends lack a special advantage. You see, unlike the players, the fiends don't have manuals detailing game stats and the abilities of character classes, so they can't meta game the way a player can. ;)

[Alent]

Well Psyren, the fiends lack a special advantage. You see, unlike the players, the fiends don't have manuals detailing game stats and the abilities of character classes, so they can't meta game the way a player can. ;)

You speak as if Asmodeus isn't responsible for WotC's editing department, with all those loopholes.

[Erik Vale]

... Dear gods!
"No, Dear Asmodeus."
*Leaps from chair before being dragged to hell for hearing of his secrets*

[Drachasor]

Thats not how it works. Hell is hell because it's undesirable for everyone. In Hell, it's always you who gets the short end of the stick. In Hell, the joke is always on you.

That's the Christian Hell. D&D Hell is a place for bad people. It's rough, like any evil society is rough. However, Chaotic Evils can do well in a CE Plane if they are tougher than most and can enforce their will -- and know when to submit to the stronger. LEs can probably do better on LE planes if they just know how to follow the rules and are useful. Both them and NEs need to avoid getting the ire of the more powerful of course.

Now, Good and Neutral Planes are definitely nicer places for people generally. On the other hand, if you are strong then you don't get a bunch of toadies to push and abuse around on Neutral and Good planes.

Though, generally, I suppose you might say that Evil mortals would be happiest on Neutral Planes -- they can be a bit abusive and no one will be that abusive to them. Neutral mortals would be happiest on Good planes -- they can live and peace knowing people will be nice and things are safe and they don't have to do anything. Good character would be happy on good planes...but the they have this annoying desire to go out and HELP people, so they are kind of stuck doing that.

There are exceptions of course. Many evil beings might most like evil places. Some neutral beings will most like neutral places. Some evil guys might most like good planes to live. You'd be hard to find a good person that would be happy outside of a good plane though, or a neutral or good person who wants to live on an evil plane. Of course, people with a Cause aren't going to be happy unless they are on a plane where they can advance that cause -- unless they need a vacation or a too old for this s***.

And of course, the Good Planes aren't going to be happy with a bunch of neutral hippie squatters. Neutral planes aren't going to like those evil people either.

[Psyren]

However, Chaotic Evils can do well in a CE Plane if they are tougher than most and can enforce their will -- and know when to submit to the stronger.

By the time most arrivals stop being petitioners and get to that point, any semblance of their former lives has been beaten and tortured out of them. Yes, there are a handful of individuals badass enough to skip the Mane/Dretch/Lemure phase, but those are very much the minority.

[Slipperychicken]

Who says you have to stick around? Planar travel might help explain why you don't find many high-level spellcasters in a given town.

[BrokenChord]

Who says you have to stick around? Planar travel might help explain why you don't find many high-level spellcasters in a given town.

I'm pretty sure that's already explained by the inherent difficulty in getting to such high levels. I mean, have you SEEN those CR-appropriate fights? Assuming not everyone just so happens to form an adventuring party, that 12th-level wizard who's just striving for 13th so he can retire to wherever he fancies might have trouble with that Mindflayer with Sorcerer levels during a typical dungeon crawl.

This is further exacerbated by the fact that the casters in your average world are horrifyingly unoptimized.

[Cirrylius]

Though, generally, I suppose you might say that Evil mortals would be happiest on Neutral Planes
More or less ^this. If Hell were a reward for being evil, it wouldn't be crammed with evil people who are all way better at it than you. The best reward for a really evil person would be the only evil person in a really remote location on the upper half of the Outlands; all of the benefits of living on a good-ish plane, except when you start abusing power/the rules, nobody knows what to do about it. When they start talking about outside help, you kill them in the night and move on. No Blood War, no backstabbing, no raving monsters. Just you and some real potential to be as evil as you can at your HD.

[Drachasor]

By the time most arrivals stop being petitioners and get to that point, any semblance of their former lives has been beaten and tortured out of them. Yes, there are a handful of individuals badass enough to skip the Mane/Dretch/Lemure phase, but those are very much the minority.

I'm under the impression that we aren't talking about the dead, but rather living people moving to other planes.

[Phelix-Mu]

Oh, my previous answer ignored the existence of the Portal Towns in the Outlands, which are pretty much settlements of people generally associated with the attached plane. My impression was that settling in these places is not that hard, although you have to get used to the rather mishmash of people that tend to end up in those places. Still, probably a little safer/easier to make your way in those places than in the real thing, especially if a vacationer/settler doesn't have some kind of patron or isn't a guest of one of the Powers That Be on Plane Whatever.

[NikitaDarkstar]

I was under the impression that the Portal Towns were of an opposed alignment than the plane they're bordering, because if they weren't they'd basically be absorbed by the plane itself? Pretty sure I read that somewhere.

Either way it would mean that the Portal Town to a Good plane actually wouldn't be that amazing of a place to live...

[Cirrylius]

I was under the impression that the Portal Towns were of an opposed alignment than the plane they're bordering, because if they weren't they'd basically be absorbed by the plane itself? Pretty sure I read that somewhere.
Either way it would mean that the Portal Town to a Good plane actually wouldn't be that amazing of a place to live...
The border towns are as close as you can get to the alignment of the neighboring plane without actually being it. If the nature of the town changes enough, then yes, the town and environs implode into the gate, the gate moves a little closer to the Spire, and the plane in question gains a few square miles of territory.

Attitudes of the gate towns regarding their neighbor plane are, unsurprisingly, mixed. The inhabitants of Sylvania might be overjoyed at the thought of slipping into Arborea after a week of festivals and orgies; a bad riot in Plague-Mort sends cannier locals running for the hills lest they get yanked into the Abyss.

If the inhabitants feel especially strongly either way, they can try to influence the locals' behavior one way or the other; for example, there's a cell of Anarchists in Automata dedicated to screwing up the town's perfect order enough to prevent it from merging with Mechanus.

[NikitaDarkstar]

Ahh, yhea that sounds pretty familiar. This is also a great example of why it's a bad idea to try to read up on the Planescape setting in the middle of the night when you can't sleep because you have a cold. :p (Pretty sure that's what happened.... got into a Planescape game not long ago, and I've had colds since November >..>)