Basic idea for a PF Druid archetype focused on Wild Shape

[rahimka]

I've got an idea for Wild Shape specialized archetype for Pathfinder Druids. If anyone has heard of something similar or has any thoughts or suggestions, I'd love to hear them.

Essentially the idea is to sacrifice the druid's primary casting ability for a superior Wild Shape that lets the character take on the base stats of the creatures into which they transform.

I was thinking the character trades the Druid spell list and casting progression for that of an equal level Ranger. Meaning they wouldn't even get access to casting until lvl 4. Maybe these levels would stack when multi-classing with Ranger.

In exchange for the taking a hit to casting, the Druid would gain Wild Shape early (lvl 1?) and, just as Wild Shape currently allows the character to get more of the creature's natural abilities (like pounce, rake, hover, etc) as the character adds Druid levels, it would now also allow them to assume the base stats of the creature.

Wild Shape would need to level up at a slightly different pace if they get at 1st lvl, maybe every 3 lvls instead of 2? So they could become Large animals at lvl 4, Huge animals at lvl 7, Large elemental/plant at 10, Huge elemental/plant at 12. At each stage the Druid would be able to "perfect" their shape shifting into creatures of the previous maximum large/small size (i.e., when they learn to become a Large or Tiny creature, they can become a perfect small or medium creature of that type, and so on as higher levels of Wild Shape are reached). Additionally, they could trade the Timeless Body class feature for perfected Huge elemental/plant forms at lvl 15.

The only other balancing change I can think of would be that they have to take an animal companion rather than a domain for their Nature Bond. The archetype has some multi class synergy with Ranger (at least thematically and in terms of its casting as I imagine it), but retains its medium BAB growth.

EDIT: One problem is obviously that the Druid's own physical base stats become irrelevant. What if the archetype added their Wisdom modifier to one or more of the character's base stats instead of taking on the base stats of the creatures? Combining this with Thousand Faces might have some interesting possibilities (or be OP)

What do you think of the viability and balance? Anyone have a suggestion of an existing archetype with an enhanced Wild Shape for PF Druids to compare?

[StreamOfTheSky]

I did it as a Ranger (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5591.0) that gets NO casting, nor animal companion. Basically I took the Wildshape Ranger variant and Master of Many Forms PrC and merged them in a 1-20 base class focused purely on shapeshifting.

[grarrrg]

I'm just gonna say that Synthesists already get stat-replacement "wildshape", and they still have 6th (plus) levels of spell casting.
Granted, they don't have jack for any other real features.

[Psyren]

I'm just gonna say that Synthesists already get stat-replacement "wildshape", and they still have 6th (plus) levels of spell casting.
Granted, they don't have jack for any other real features.

Several of the designers regret Synthesis though, and it was banned in PFS, so for the OP's requirements ("viability and balance") this may not be the best example. At the very least, stat replacement is something we're unlikely to see more of in PF going forward.

[Snowbluff]

Several of the designers regret Synthesis though, and it was banned in PFS, so for the OP's requirements ("viability and balance") this may not be the best example. At the very least, stat replacement is something we're unlikely to see more of in PF going forward.

Ironically enough, the Synthesist is strictly weaker than the base Summoner, and faaaaar weaker than Master Summoner. I guess Synthesist is less discrete.

[Nihilarian]

Why not just make it a ranger archetype? Losing spellcasting and the hunter's bond should be enough. Maybe favored terrain as well? And they'd have to take the natural weapon style.

[Psyren]

I did it as a Ranger (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5591.0) that gets NO casting, nor animal companion. Basically I took the Wildshape Ranger variant and Master of Many Forms PrC and merged them in a 1-20 base class focused purely on shapeshifting.


Why not just make it a ranger archetype? Losing spellcasting and the hunter's bond should be enough. Maybe favored terrain as well? And they'd have to take the natural weapon style.

I think this is the way to go with this.


Ironically enough, the Synthesist is strictly weaker than the base Summoner, and faaaaar weaker than Master Summoner. I guess Synthesist is less discrete.

Even so, I'm willing to bet Synthesists caused more trouble at PFS tables (and even non-PFS tables) than wizards and sorcerers despite being nominally weaker, which is what led to that decision being made. Particularly when it came to dumping physical stats and usurping melee anyway.

It's just one of the odd quirks of this game that it plays out so differently on message boards.

[NightbringerGGZ]

Even so, I'm willing to bet Synthesists caused more trouble at PFS tables (and even non-PFS tables) than wizards and sorcerers despite being nominally weaker, which is what led to that decision being made. Particularly when it came to dumping physical stats and usurping melee anyway.

It's just one of the odd quirks of this game that it plays out so differently on message boards.

From my personal experience I have to say this is true. A Synthesist can really outshine other melee characters, particularly the more Mundane ones. Even with poor or moderate optimization, they wind up with strong stats than the martial classes.

@OP. If they're getting Wild Shape at first level, why not move their bond to 4th with an effective Druid level of -3 =P. Especially if you plan on bumping when the archetype unlocks new "Shapes".

[Snowbluff]

Even so, I'm willing to bet Synthesists caused more trouble at PFS tables (and even non-PFS tables) than wizards and sorcerers despite being nominally weaker, which is what led to that decision being made. Particularly when it came to dumping physical stats and usurping melee anyway.

It's just one of the odd quirks of this game that it plays out so differently on message boards.

I think it's mostly a vocal minority. Anyone can tell you that the base summoner is more disruptive. I've played both. Even with synthesist, the most terrible things I do are done with my Summoner Monster ability.

Replacing ability scores has this stigma with the PFS players, but it's small deal when you apply any sense of logic or metagaming to it. There's a cap to how high your scored can be at any given level, so the best you'd get out of a build is +1 to your DCs and maybe a spell slot. Summoners already have subpar DCs due to their 6/9 list and they don't benefit from bonus slots for the same reason. You're almost better off investing the points into intellect, so you can spread out some extra skill points.

For the actual stats being replaced, a base character would have more points there for most levels. Synthesists have to split their feat betwixt their casting and their martial abilities as well...

So what we have is one of the more interesting character experiences being removed from a game because people think fighters were still relevant, despite it having very little effect on how the game plays.

[Nihilarian]

Synthethist is just poorly worded overall. I'd rather use a Totemist (3.5) or an Aegis, depending on the concept.

[Snowbluff]

Synthethist is just poorly worded overall. I'd rather use a Totemist (3.5) or an Aegis, depending on the concept.

I won't disagree with that. I apply it conservatively. Pretty much, you get the Str, Dex, BAB, etc, and then you add the evolutions.

[Psyren]

I think it's mostly a vocal minority. Anyone can tell you that the base summoner is more disruptive.

But they're also easier to counter. If you CC the Eidolon or ambush the summoner, the player ends up in trouble very quickly. A Synthesist has much stronger defenses, and forming a single unit with his bodyguard renders him much more resistant to some very basic tactics (like being grappled.) Furthermore, a summoner who runs out of spells must simply do his best to keep his tank between him and any threats to the best of his ability, whereas a Synthesist can wade into melee at that point.

Synthesist also obviates the slot-sharing disadvantage of the summoner. For example, you no longer have to choose whether you or your eidolon should get that AC- or save-boosting item you just found.

So while the Summoner has more raw power if the guy in the dress on the back row is left alone, it's not difficult or even illogical for the DM to exploit that inherent weakness as much as needed to generate challenge.

[Snowbluff]

But they're also easier to counter. If you CC the Eidolon or ambush the summoner, the player ends up in trouble very quickly. A Synthesist has much stronger defenses, and forming a single unit with his bodyguard renders him much more resistant to some very basic tactics (like being grappled.) Furthermore, a summoner who runs out of spells must simply do his best to keep his tank between him and any threats to the best of his ability, whereas a Synthesist can wade into melee at that point. If you CC the Eidolon, you could have spent the same action CCing the entire synthesist. A summoner is still as caster and has quite few spells to help himself out of a jam, and still functions in the absence of an Eidolon.

The Synthesist has the combined HP of the summoner and the AC of the Eidolon. The base Summoner has less AC, but his Eidolon has the superior AC and extra actions. The Synthesist is slighter better off in terms of HP and AC, but is otherwise an easier target and much less capable offensively.


Synthesist also obviates the slot-sharing disadvantage of the summoner. For example, you no longer have to choose whether you or your eidolon should get that AC- or save-boosting item you just found.

The Eidolon doesn't need the AC boosting item. Cast Mage Armor on it. Find an alternative save booster, if you can still get vests that do it. Summoners would probably take a Cloak of Charisma over a Cloak of Resistance, for example.

[Psyren]

If you CC the Eidolon, you could have spent the same action CCing the entire synthesist.

Not necessarily - some CC will work better on the meat shield than on the caster behind him, e.g. the sort that targets will saves rather than fortitude. In addition, some CC is either pointless against or more difficult to use on a character that has no business being in melee. For example, grappling casters can work quite well (at lower levels anyway) but the challenge is actually getting close enough to them - past the party's front line - to land one.


A summoner is still as caster and has quite few spells to help himself out of a jam, and still functions in the absence of an Eidolon.

Obviously. But Wizards and Sorcerers are casters too. Are you saying it's impossible to challenge them?

[Snowbluff]

Not necessarily - some CC will work better on the meat shield than on the caster behind him, e.g. the sort that targets will saves rather than fortitude. In addition, some CC is either pointless against or more difficult to use on a character that has no business being in melee. For example, grappling casters can work quite well (at lower levels anyway) but the challenge is actually getting close enough to them - past the party's front line - to land one.
Summoners and synths still have weak reflex saves. I'd probably target that save. Wisdom is usually a dump stat, regardless of their build, so those aren't that great.

As for grappling, a base summoner is better off. For, you see...

but the challenge is actually getting close enough to them - past the party's front line - to land one.
That's actually an argument for synthesists being less powerful. Out of reach and out of mind, and the extra meat shield is gravy.


Obviously. But Wizards and Sorcerers are casters too. Are you saying it's impossible to challenge them?

I'm saying the synth has to split his decisions in a fight, and a summoner is still a competent BFC caster. A base summoner could have his eidolon reposition itself, grapple a foe, or attack it, while he makes a pit or casts haste. A synthesist would have to decide between either type of action while in a fight. His combat effectiveness can only be a little over half that of a base summoner.

[Psyren]

That's actually an argument for synthesists being less powerful. Out of reach and out of mind, and the extra meat shield is gravy.

For the record, I agree with you that the unfused summoner is stronger overall. What I'm saying though is that the unfused one has weaknesses that the fused version does not, and it is those weaknesses that make the unfused version easier to deal with for many DMs.

If you grapple a synthesist for instance, you gain very little; there is no "other half of the pair" to be suddenly made vulnerable by taking his bodyguard out of the equation for a round or two. It's all the same guy, and he's free to rip you a new one or at the very least weather your assault as he wears you down.

Compare to grappling an Eidolon alone - even if the Eidolon can shred its attacker or break free, it's going to take at least a turn before it can move freely again. And if it can't, and the summoner is forced to recall it, that's two characters' actions/resources being wasted by one from the monster - action advantage to the DM.

Further, most intelligent villains know that the caster is the real threat; that's no different for a summoner + eidolon than it is for a wizard + fighter, or a druid + animal companion, regardless of how hulking and scary-looking the meat-shield is.



I'm saying the synth has to split his decisions in a fight, and a summoner is still a competent BFC caster. A base summoner could have his eidolon reposition itself, grapple a foe, or attack it, while he makes a pit or casts haste. A synthesist would have to decide between either type of action while in a fight. His combat effectiveness can only be a little over half that of a base summoner.

And I get that - but being inherently safer, he may not need those extra actions/BFC anyway; that's my point. Creating pits to section a battlefield is useful for a squishy caster, but it's not a tactic Synthesists are going to need nearly as often.

[Snowbluff]

For the record, I agree with you that the unfused summoner is stronger overall. What I'm saying though is that the unfused one has weaknesses that the fused version does not, and it is those weaknesses that make the unfused version easier to deal with for many DMs.
Yeah, I get that.


Further, most intelligent villains know that the caster is the real threat; that's no different for a summoner + eidolon than it is for a wizard + fighter, or a druid + animal companion, regardless of how hulking and scary-looking the meat-shield is.

This is a separate argument. Just keep in mind one of those things is not like the other.


And I get that - but being inherently safer, he may not need those extra actions/BFC anyway; that's my point. Creating pits to section a battlefield is useful for a squishy caster, but it's not a tactic Synthesists are going to need nearly as often.
Sometimes, the action is better spent buffing or doing a BFC. Summoners don't need to make that decision.

[Psyren]

This is a separate argument. Just keep in mind one of those things is not like the other.

Well... yeah, that's what "further" means. :smalltongue:
I'm introducing an additional/secondary idea.



Sometimes, the action is better spent buffing or doing a BFC. Summoners don't need to make that decision.

Indeed; instead, they have different decisions to make. Such as "crap, my eidolon has been rooted and there's two more enemies about to charge me - should I teleport him to my side now, and if so, which side do I put him on? Or should I try going invisible first?" etc.

[Snowbluff]

Well... yeah, that's what "further" means. :smalltongue:
I'm introducing an additional/secondary idea.

Yeah, but the Eidolon is pretty much an extra beefcake. Fighter Wizard has less resources than a synthesist wizard combo which is worse than a summoner eidolon wizard combo. Any of them can be challenged, but that's a combination of being irrelevant and easily dismissed. From what I heard, challenging a wizard for you is to make up effects that only work on wizards, punish them for trying to being effective use of their turns and instilling corporal punishment.


Indeed; instead, they have different decisions to make. Such as "crap, my eidolon has been rooted and there's two more enemies about to charge me - should I teleport him to my side now, and if so, which side do I put him on? Or should I try going invisible first?" etc.

Is that the best you got? "Crap, they'll charge me to little effect and my eidolon was expendable. Good thing the Druid, whose spot would have been taken by a big dumb fighter if I didn't have an eidolon, is right here. The pit doesn't let them charge in this direction, anyway." :smalltongue:

A synthesist would have been taken out of the fight for the most part if he was the one that was rooted.

Is there a term for economizing party slots? That's pretty much this comes down to.

[Psyren]

Yeah, but the Eidolon is pretty much an extra beefcake. Fighter Wizard has less resources than a synthesist wizard combo which is worse than a summoner eidolon wizard combo. Any of them can be challenged, but that's a combination of being irrelevant and easily dismissed. From what I heard, challenging a wizard for you is to make up effects that only work on wizards, punish them for trying to being effective use of their turns and instilling corporal punishment.

The Eidolon does have unique limitations that even a basic fighter/wizard combo does not - sharing one set of body slots between them for instance. Furthermore, there are very logical counters that are Eidolon-specific, e.g. Dimensional Anchor so the Summoner can't call them back in a pinch. Even battling in a dimensionally locked room can wreak havoc with a Summoner's existing strategy, and that's a reasonable defense for many BBEGs to have in place.



Is that the best you got? "Crap, they'll charge me to little effect and my eidolon was expendable. Good thing the Druid, whose spot would have been taken by a big dumb fighter if I didn't have an eidolon, is right here. The pit doesn't let them charge in this direction, anyway." :smalltongue:

Is that the best you've got? Assuming other party members will be perfectly positioned to pull them out of the fire every time (if they're even around), and assuming melee threats that will get stopped cold by a hole in the ground? :smalltongue:



A synthesist would have been taken out of the fight for the most part if he was the one that was rooted.

Except rooting a Synthesist is only half the equation. You still have to actually take them out; engaging one in melee is not exactly a safe proposition, and range is largely inefficient unless you have overwhelming firepower.

CC an Eidolon and his Summoner is vulnerable; CC a Synthesist and he's still protected, inconvenienced at best.



Is there a term for economizing party slots? That's pretty much this comes down to.

If pure output is all that matters you may as well just run with 4x Druids or something. They can even earth glide as a squadron into the enemy's lair!

But again, I'm not trying to say that Synthesist is somehow better than a regular summoner. I'm just pointing out that a class that has full casting and bruiser-like defense is likely to be more of a headache at actual tables than a class that puts those two qualities on separate sticks, even factoring in the action economy advantage of the latter setup.

[Snowbluff]

The Eidolon does have unique limitations that even a basic fighter/wizard combo does not - sharing one set of body slots between them for instance. Furthermore, there are very logical counters that are Eidolon-specific, e.g. Dimensional Anchor so the Summoner can't call them back in a pinch. Even battling in a dimensionally locked room can wreak havoc with a Summoner's existing strategy, and that's a reasonable defense for many BBEGs to have in place. Their are specific options for dealing with a synthesist as well. You can Banish or Dismiss it. Either summoner would switch to their summon monster SLAs (summon it in a square outside of the lock) or spells (I like to pick up Snowball), almost immediately, and it's another the reasons why a summoner shouldn't tank their physical stats. It is a good strategy, which is why I like to prep some contingency for it. :smallsmile:



Is that the best you've got? Assuming other party members will be perfectly positioned to pull them out of the fire every time (if they're even around), and assuming melee threats that will get stopped cold by a hole in the ground? :smalltongue:
Hey, you need an unbroken path! :smalltongue:



Except rooting a Synthesist is only half the equation. You still have to actually take them out; engaging one in melee is not exactly a safe proposition, and range is largely inefficient unless you have overwhelming firepower.

CC an Eidolon and his Summoner is vulnerable; CC a Synthesist and he's still protected, inconvenienced at best.
Well, he can't move in range without burning a Jump, and he can't cast easily. Both halves of the synthesist are taken out in one move. If rooting a synthesist is only half of the problem, then rooting an eidolon is only a quarter of it.



If pure output is all that matters you may as well just run with 4x Druids or something. They can even earth glide as a squadron into the enemy's lair!
Druids can only generate so many of the effects in a game. A half-elf oracle or sorc would go a long way! :3

Personally, I wouldn't have the class be all of the same class. Sorc (pargon surge), Summoner (comes with beat stick), Druid (comes with beat stick that can't be dismissed), and cleric (not very squishy) would probably be closer to an ideal party.


But again, I'm not trying to say that Synthesist is somehow better than a regular summoner. I'm just pointing out that a class that has full casting and bruiser-like defense is likely to be more of a headache at actual tables than a class that puts those two qualities on separate sticks, even factoring in the action economy advantage of the latter setup.
I think the big issue here is that most people don't know what they are dealing with. I would suggest that more tables have casters web or entangle the synthesist to slow him down. Target his worse save with an effect that isn't uncommon. I wouldn't always target the eidolon, since that's like telling a monk to put on a suit of full plate.

[Psyren]

Their are specific options for dealing with a synthesist as well. You can Banish or Dismiss it. Either summoner would switch to their summon monster SLAs (summon it in a square outside of the lock) or spells (I like to pick up Snowball), almost immediately, and it's another the reasons why a summoner shouldn't tank their physical stats. It is a good strategy, which is why I like to prep some contingency for it. :smallsmile:

Those are valid tactics - however, a Synthesist's will save is likely to be higher than that of an unfused eidolon since he (a) gets to use his own save progression, (b) has more points to spare for Wis by dumping his physical stats and (c) doesn't have to choose between protecting his own saving throws and those of his eidolon like a regular summoner does. He can wear a Cloak of Resistance for example and have it protect both entities, and indeed has good reason to do so.



Hey, you need an unbroken path! :smalltongue:

They don't even have to charge/pounce necessarily, they can just walk around/jump over your pit and grapple you - and many monsters are more than fast enough to do that in one move. There's also fliers/burrowers/swimmers who a pit won't stop.



Well, he can't move in range without burning a Jump, and he can't cast easily. Both halves of the synthesist are taken out in one move. If rooting a synthesist is only half of the problem, then rooting an eidolon is only a quarter of it.

He doesn't have to worry about moving in range if they're trying to get him. It's the enemy that has to seal the deal.



I think the big issue here is that most people don't know what they are dealing with. I would suggest that more tables have casters web or entangle the synthesist to slow him down. Target his worse save with an effect that isn't uncommon. I wouldn't always target the eidolon, since that's like telling a monk to put on a suit of full plate.

A Synthesist's worst save is still going to be pretty good, due to both stat replacement and body slot economy savings. Targeting the weak save of either component being in a separate configuration is going to be a lot easier by contrast.

[Snowbluff]

Those are valid tactics - however, a Synthesist's will save is likely to be higher than that of an unfused eidolon since he (a) gets to use his own save progression, (b) has more points to spare for Wis by dumping his physical stats and (c) doesn't have to choose between protecting his own saving throws and those of his eidolon like a regular summoner does. He can wear a Cloak of Resistance for example and have it protect both entities, and indeed has good reason to do so. The eidolon really doesn't need the gear. Expendable is the best part of being an eidolon. As for have more wis, the Will is the synthesist's good save, so it isn't always focused. Even without a high wis score, it's ~5 points higher than a synthesist's reflex.




They don't even have to charge/pounce necessarily, they can just walk around/jump over your pit and grapple you - and many monsters are more than fast enough to do that in one move. There's also fliers/burrowers/swimmers who a pit won't stop.
S
PP
PPEE
....EE
For large distances between the eidolon and summoner That's a lot of squares covered. Burrowers would have a tough time getting around the pit. Put a defending weapon... wait, they nerfed defending, right? Bollocks. Sometimes you have to say "whatever" and give your large eidolon the 4 longspears it deserves.


He doesn't have to worry about moving in range if they're trying to get him. It's the enemy that has to seal the deal.

Here's your problem. You're trying to kill the summoner, where you only have to keep him from showing up the rest of the party or winning immediately. Which leads me into the other point about the parties and PFS. Lower OP DMs and PF really aren't prepared in any way for this. It's a lack of foresight issue.


A Synthesist's worst save is still going to be pretty good, due to both stat replacement and body slot economy savings. Targeting the weak save of either component being in a separate configuration is going to be a lot easier by contrast.
Eidolons typically have relatively crap dex on a bad save progression. It's pretty awful. At best you're looking at 2 (dex mod, for a sub-optimally small eidolon) + 6 (save) + 5 (cloak) = 13 at level 20.

[grarrrg]

Several of the designers regret Synthesis though, and it was banned in PFS,

Synthethist is just poorly worded overall

I believe this is the main reason why it was banned.
It's just a little too much on the confusing side. Sure, at a glance it works perfectly fine, but then you get into the actual details and out come the questions.
It was easier to just ban it from PFS than to issue a dozen FAQ's.


Eidolons typically have relatively crap dex on a bad save progression. It's pretty awful. At best you're looking at 2 (dex mod, for a sub-optimally small eidolon) + 6 (save) + 5 (cloak) = 13 at level 20.

Eidolons get STR/DEX bonus every few levels, which caps out at +8 each at level 20.
Synthesists also get Shielded Meld, which gives a +4 Circumstance bonus to saves at level 12

So a level 20 Medium Biped Synthesist will have 6 base, +4 Circumstance, +5 DEX, +5 Cloak = 20 at level 20.
Going Large/Huge will decrease this by 1 or 2 points.
Quad adds +1 for DEX, Serpentine adds +2 DEX.

[Drachasor]

If I was going to make an improved Wildshape in PF, then I'd probably do it along the following lines:

1) You can change the size of the form you take by one size category up or down, while keeping all stats (except reach and space) the same. So you could be a Medium Horse or a Huge Horse, but only your size would change doing that. The new size would affect base natural attack damage though. You'd get the benefits of the Large Animal Wildshape. You choose your size whenever you Wilshape into a new form.

2) You can get additional bonus stats, kind of like Augment Summoning. Maybe +2 across the board or something. Perhaps more if it counted as an enhancement bonus. Possibly you get one bonus that you apply to any one physical stat like the OP suggested.

3) While Wildshape is active, you can change your form to another valid wildshape, this decreases the duration of your wildshape by 1 hour/30 minutes/10 minutes (something like that). This is a swift action.

Beyond that you could get to more odd stuff such as adding a movement mode or sensory capability from one wildshape form to your existing form and stuff like that. I'd avoid messing with natural attacks though.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Why not just make it a ranger archetype? Losing spellcasting and the hunter's bond should be enough. Maybe favored terrain as well? And they'd have to take the natural weapon style.

Wow, yeah. You basically just described my Ranger archetype. Uncannily.

[Snowbluff]

It was easier to just ban it from PFS than to issue a dozen FAQ's.
"They were being lazy."?


Eidolons get STR/DEX bonus every few levels, which caps out at +8 each at level 20.
Synthesists also get Shielded Meld, which gives a +4 Circumstance bonus to saves at level 12

So a level 20 Medium Biped Synthesist will have 6 base, +4 Circumstance, +5 DEX, +5 Cloak = 20 at level 20.
Going Large/Huge will decrease this by 1 or 2 points.
Quad adds +1 for DEX, Serpentine adds +2 DEX.
I forgot about the circumstance bonus, but the best synthesists are running huge bipods. Add five to the reflex, 4 to the will.

[Nihilarian]

Wow, yeah. You basically just described my Ranger archetype. Uncannily.Great minds think alike?

[Snowbluff]

Great minds think alike?

Here, here! *toasts you guys*

I'd probably do the same thing. I might let them keep favored terrain or casting. I'm not sure how good PF ranger spells are after losing those features, though.

[Nihilarian]

Here, here! *toasts you guys*

I'd probably do the same thing. I might let them keep favored terrain or casting. I'm not sure how good PF ranger spells are after losing those features, though.You should look up Entangle, Arrow Eruption, Instant Enemy and Animal Growth. The ranger's got some good spells. There's also an archetype that gives him some druid spells.

[Snowbluff]

You should look up Entangle, Arrow Eruption, Instant Enemy and Animal Growth. The ranger's got some good spells. There's also an archetype that gives him some druid spells.

Exactly what I was talking about. Not as many ranger spells as as useful for a wildshaping/NA ranger. Arrow Eruption and Animal Grwoth aren't nearly as useful without an AnC or ranged combat styles. On the other hand, instant enemy would be pretty sweet with a bunch of attacks.

Did they get a new Hunter's Mercy? That was a real gem.

[Nihilarian]

Exactly what I was talking about. Not as many ranger spells as as useful for a wildshaping/NA ranger. Arrow Eruption and Animal Grwoth aren't nearly as useful without an AnC or ranged combat styles. On the other hand, instant enemy would be pretty sweet with a bunch of attacks.

Did they get a new Hunter's Mercy? That was a real gem.Ah, I misunderstood. Yeah, it'd be harder to find good spells with everything you're giving up.

I don't think they got anything like Hunter's Mercy.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Arrow Eruption is not a good spell. Perhaps if it was level 1 for rangers (it's the same level as for sorc/wiz) it'd be ok. As a level 2, it's already very situational as it is and the damage is poor even when you do have the chance to use it and there's lots of enemies around.

Entangle and especially Instant Enemy are solid, though.

My archetype gives up favored enemy, quarry, spellcasting, nature bond (animal companion) and the master hunter capstone. But it gets wildshape from level 1 w/ some of the best aspects of PF and 3E combined together (you get the stats; your melded items continue to provide bonuses; etc...) and gets basically all of the MoMF form options, eventually Ex qualities and faster shifting (like MoMF) to the point at late levels where it's a free action once per round. And then the capstone gives infinite use of wildshape (which, thanks to healing each use and 1/round free action shifting, is practically fast healing 20) and the ability to pluck from the Beast Shape III special abilities list, either stacking something like flight or pounce on anything you want, or unlocking your dragon form's actual breath weapon.

[Nihilarian]

Arrow Eruption is not a good spell. Perhaps if it was level 1 for rangers (it's the same level as for sorc/wiz) it'd be ok. As a level 2, it's already very situational as it is and the damage is poor even when you do have the chance to use it and there's lots of enemies around.I was going to say that I was specifically thinking of using the spell the round after using a Slaying Arrow, but I just found out that PF nerfed it. So yeah, it's not as good as I thought.