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Yogibear41
2014-02-24, 01:04 AM
What LA should this template be? I'm thinking something around +2

Type Changes to Dragon (low-light vision, darkvision, immunity to sleep and paralysis) with shapechanger subtype

+2 Wisdom
+2 Natural Armor
Iron Will Bonus Feat

May Attempt a DC 15+character level(level 1=16, level 2=17 etc.) control shape check to assume a half-dragon form gaining:

+8 Str
+2 Con
Additional +4 Natural Armor
DR 5/silver

2 Claws and 1 Bite (1d4 and 1d6 for medium creature)

Immunity to energy type based on heritage, breath weapon based on heritage 1/day as in the MM(can take feats as a half-dragon to allow additional attempts) actually lets make it based on HD and not RHD for the save because lets face it the normal save is so low a level 2 squirrel could make it.

If control shape check fails, for every point by which the target number is missed you take 1 point of constitution damage.

DC 10+character level to return to normal form, Con damage on failure applies to every check.


Found a template similar to this in a 3rd party book that was based off of lycanthropy and half-dragons, alot of the template wasn't really spelled out so I based alot of this off of an afflicted lycanthrope.

TypoNinja
2014-02-24, 01:17 AM
You've made a were-dragon. Cool.

I think that might be too much for only a +2. 8 str more than makes up for the loss of BAB, dr 5/silver is pretty good, since unlike magic almost nothing has silver by default, and +4 nat Armour is enough at low levels to make the loss of HP go away as a concern.

I think it fails the "why would you not?" test. I can't think of a reason a beatstick type wouldn't want to apply this , especially since with LA buyoffs a 2 dissapears pretty fast.

I'd say a three. At 4 I'd ignore it, and at 2 I'd take it every time, unless it conflicted directly with a build plan.

Yogibear41
2014-02-24, 01:54 AM
well compare it to something like feral or mineral warrior that is only +1, also note that the DC to actually change scales with level and if you fail you take con damage, or to the saint that is +2.

I know the normal half-dragon is +3 and is generally considered to be terrible.


for the record the were-dragon idea was in the book, I just altered it a bit to make it usable.


EDIT: would removing the DR be enough to drop it down to +2 in your opinion?

TypoNinja
2014-02-24, 02:10 AM
well compare it to something like feral or mineral warrior that is only +1, also note that the DC to actually change scales with level and if you fail you take con damage, or to the saint that is +2.

I know the normal half-dragon is +3 and is generally considered to be terrible.


for the record the were-dragon idea was in the book, I just altered it a bit to make it usable.

Saint is +2 and an heinous RP requirement that everybody always forgets/ignores.

I'm not familiar with either of the other two templates.

Taking Con damage on a failed attempt is interesting, as is a scaling check, but it amounts to a skill point sink is all, as ranks in Control Shape will keep the check difficulty down.

What I was getting at with the "why would you not" test is my own way of evaluating custom material. If something is good enough that you can't think of a reason not to, its probably too strong. On the other hand, if its so bad you can't think why you'd pick it up it needs a buff.

This is really nice looking, regardless of other templates and balance points, at +2 I think its just too cheap. Energy immunity, dr 5/ silver, +8 str, 6 nat Armour, and of course a breath weapon. The bonus con even helps offset the HD loss so your HP aren't terrible, and as a +2 you can buy it off before 10th level.

6 nat armor alone, means a fighter wearing breast plate, gets a 24 AC. Most foes will be crit fishing against you at low levels, never mind if you actually invest in your AC.

Yogibear41
2014-02-24, 02:21 AM
Saint is +2 and an heinous RP requirement that everybody always forgets/ignores.

I'm not familiar with either of the other two templates.



For the record in the game I play in shapechangers are pretty much killed on sight and they have magic set up to detect them in towns and cities, but that is neither here nor there and using it as a point to argue the adjustment would be wrong, just saying it would have its own RP requirements :smallsmile:


Feral Template:

+10 land speed
+6 natural armor or base creatures existing natural armor whichever is better
2 claw attacks 1d8 for medium
Improved Grab
60ft darkvision
fast healing 2
+4 str, -2 dex, +2 con, -4 int, +2 wis

+1 LA

you can get some other abilities to but they are based off of total RHD that above is based of 1 RHD which everything has before being replaced by a class level.

Mineral Warrior Template

Gains Earth Subtype
Burrow Speed = to 1/2 base creatures highest speed, lose natural flight ability
+3 Natural Armor
60 ft Darkvision
DR 8/adamantine
+2 str, +4 con, -2 int, -2 wis, -2 cha

Special Attack:

Once per day "smite" attack using con for bonus to hit, bonus damage based off RHD so usually 0 for a PC.

+1 LA

Yogibear41
2014-02-24, 02:28 AM
Okay how about this:

Out of Form

+2 Wis
+2 natural Armor

In Form

+8 Str
+2 Con
+2 Natural armor (total of 4)

Same Immunities Same Breath Weapon Same Natural Weapons

Got Rid of:

DR in form
Iron Will Bonus Feat
Reduced Natural Armor

closer to +2?

OldTrees1
2014-02-24, 02:33 AM
Honestly looks like +1LA - +2LA.
+1 LA when compared to big names like Lolth Touched or Half Minotaur
+2 LA when compared to strong names like Dragonborn or rebalanced Half Minotaur

Fortuna
2014-02-24, 02:33 AM
This should most likely be over in the Homebrew forum.

Yogibear41
2014-02-24, 02:35 AM
Old trees do you mean the original or the weakened one I posted later?

nyjastul69
2014-02-24, 02:40 AM
Okay how about this:

Out of Form

+2 Wis
+2 natural Armor

In Form

+8 Str
+2 Con
+2 Natural armor (total of 4)

Same Immunities Same Breath Weapon Same Natural Weapons

Got Rid of:

DR in form
Iron Will Bonus Feat
Reduced Natural Armor

closer to +2?

My thought on the original was +3 LA. This one seems a bit closer to +2 LA.

OldTrees1
2014-02-24, 07:46 AM
Old trees do you mean the original or the weakened one I posted later?

Yes. But more the weakened version.