Suggestion for future VS threads

[Scowling Dragon]

Here are my suggested guidelines for an interesting VS battle.

You can pick a person or an organization / team

No Anime characters: They often suffer the issue of having unlimited power, as long as they continue powering up, or believe in friendship

No Superheroes: Similar problem as above (Caused by. power creep and poor continuity)

No Warhammer 40k Similar problems as above as well, except in reverse (We can always make the guns bigger and the situation more bleak). Makes for a boring thread.

If the character/ team / organization break the usual cliches then the above rules are off.

No Gods: Just no. Makes for a boring thread about discussing unlimited power sources.

The battle turf is on both the characters worlds through a system of portals that open up once every 10 hours for 1 hour. A character in a different world can return to their own universe if they recite a 30 second chant.

The backstory as why the character or organization is fighting is because of a expertly done framing job as to make the characters want to fight each other. Not blood vengeance level but enough for combat till one side either retreats or is defeated/ killed.

They can recruit up to 2 allies, but no more.

The fight does not have to be a 1 on 1 brawl. Maybe a victory could be a trick of some sort or getting the character depowered through other means.

Like maybe taking over their corporation, or financially destroying them.

These are just suggestions or whatever. Maybe their bad.

[Eldan]

No Anime characters: They often suffer the issue of having unlimited power, as long as they continue powering up, or believe in friendship

Could I please contest that? I'd agree, to a degree, if you said Shonen, at least. But I'd like to see how, say, Barsa from Seirei no Moribito has unlimited power, believes in friendship or ever powers up. Along with pretty much any anime character that isn't primarily and badly written for twelve year old boys. That's maybe the most prominent shows on American TV (or at least seems to be, judging by how often this cliché shows up), but it's not the majority of shows.


The backstory as why the character or organization is fighting is because of a expertly done framing job as to make the characters want to fight each other. Not blood vengeance level but enough for combat till one side either retreats or is defeated/ killed.

This one is even worse. THe most interesting vs. threads have always been those where the OP put some actual thought into the reason why whatever contest is proposed is happening. Quite often, it's not a battle to the death, then. Limiting all the possible motivations and framing devices to exactly one would kill an enormous amount of interesting discussion prematurely.

[BeerMug Paladin]

Here are my suggested guidelines for an interesting VS battle.
Vs battles are hard to really come up with good matches for. Different universes usually have different levels of 'power' associated with them. Sometimes the most powerful person just has a bunch of money (Scrooge McDuck). At other times, characters have near infinite power within their specified strong points (Superman).

No Anime characters: They often suffer the issue of having unlimited power, as long as they continue powering up, or believe in friendship
I don't think this is really an anime thing. It's a bad fiction thing. Narratives that are written well define and limit the abilities of their characters in a clear way to their audience. That way characters are possible to place in peril (and thus, tension is possible for heroes and villains can be defeated). Bad fiction writers don't think about this. (Bad anime does this like bad movies and bad novels does. It's universal, and also not immediately an indicator of badness, but has decent correlation to badness.)

You could effectively get the same result by suggesting something like "no vaguely defined power limits" characters, but the problem with that is that people judge these sorts of things differently all the time. There's no possible rule of what qualifies as this and what doesn't.

A good example of something that ought to be off-limits according to this criteria. No characters from the show Voyager (and later incarnations of Star Trek). Not all characters do this, but several characters can use science-flavored magic. A character like Seven or Tom Paris can just babble incoherently for a while (and sometimes even say things that are factually false) then cast their magic spell to solve the problem of the day. They could defeat an arbitrary opponent via the same process.

No Superheroes: Similar problem as above (Caused by. power creep and poor continuity)
See above. Not all Superheroes have vaguely defined powers.

No Warhammer 40k Similar problems as above as well, except in reverse (We can always make the guns bigger and the situation more bleak). Makes for a boring thread.
The advantages most characters have are situational. Usually versus threads are hilarious because different people assume different things about the situation. For instance, Batman could defeat any character this is possible to defeat if you just assume he did the research on a particular character's weakness beforehand, and also chose the time and place of the confrontation, etc.

No Gods: Just no. Makes for a boring thread about discussing unlimited power sources.
Usually, gods would be covered by the vague powers rule. Some gods are defeatable, though. It depends on the source material.

The battle turf is on both the characters worlds through a system of portals that open up once every 10 hours for 1 hour. A character in a different world can return to their own universe if they recite a 30 second chant.
Now we're getting somewhere. I think this would require a little more setup for which character is initially in which setting. Preferably using a known location for the franchise. I'm thinking the guest character would probably get to choose a place to confront the home-universe character. The guest character would probably only know the most basic things about the setting, though, like physical apparance and features and things that are possible to tell via basic observation. (Hence, nobody gets to show up in a 'new' universe and take advantage of some esoteric property of the universe to defeat their opponent.)

The backstory as why the character or organization is fighting is because of a expertly done framing job as to make the characters want to fight each other. Not blood vengeance level but enough for combat till one side either retreats or is defeated/ killed.

They can recruit up to 2 allies, but no more.
I'm not sure backstory matters much, apart from the setup and establishing what the characters know about each other. I'm also not sure recruiting allies is that great a thing to allow in general, unless it's their specific power and in that case it should work as normal, probably. (Consider a peon from Warcraft 3 versus Nathan Drake from Uncharted, for example)

The fight does not have to be a 1 on 1 brawl. Maybe a victory could be a trick of some sort or getting the character depowered through other means.

Like maybe taking over their corporation, or financially destroying them.
Yeah, characters can be defeated by anything that would resemble a defeat in their home setting. Or by the parameters of their duel. David Xanatos Vs Batman, for instance, could take the form of a ploy to steal the riches of the other guy.

But whether or not this is possible depends on what information characters can know about each other.

[MLai]

I think the only requirement is knowledge of both settings in question. We've had too many stupid Toby Versus Godzilla setups because the poster has no inkling of the true powers of Godzilla, making for an automatic curbstomp and then a non-discussion.

[Metahuman1]

MLai: that gives me an idea.


Pacific Rim Kaiju Vs. Godzilla!

[MLai]

MLai: that gives me an idea.
Pacific Rim Kaiju Vs. Godzilla!
Godzilla is almost completely immune to normal ordinance, while the PR Kaiju can be harmed by shelling it's just that humanity would prefer not to, due to the toxic blood pollution.

But Godzilla wouldn't care about pollution, nor would he/it be affected by it, so Godzilla wins. :smallsmile:

[Metahuman1]

On the flip side, Didn't PC verse have more then 1 Kaiju for Humanity to deal with as a part of the setting? Sure, Godzilla tanks one no problem, what about ALL of them?

[Nerd-o-rama]

I think your banlist should actually read more like no Saiyans, Superman/memetic Batman, or Space Marines (or maybe Tyranids). Anime, Superheroes, and Warhammer 40k all have pretty long powercurves. For example, I wouldn't object to, I don't know, Hei vs. Spider-Man, as while both are protagonists of their respective series they're solidly mid-tier for their genres and have solidly defined limits on their powers and abilities. Most of the time.

A thousand Imperial Guardsmen vs. Deadpool would also be pretty amusing.

And based on Godzilla's track record against somewhat more impressive daikaiju in his own films, I'd give the odds to him in a fight against almost any number of PR kaiju.

The Jaegers from the film, all together with an actual plan, might prove an interesting fight, they're just so damn fragile for robots of their size.

[erikun]

One that I've thought about is Syndrome (The Incredibles) vs. Emmet (The Lego Movie), under the logic that one wants to turn everyone super so that nobody is, and the other things that everyone is super and that's already awesome. :smalltongue:

I've just been too lazy to do it myself.

[Tengu_temp]

interesting VS battle

No such thing. The only fun vs threads are tongue-in-the-cheek ones, like Link vs Sephiroth in a basketball match (yes, that was a real thing).

[Tanuki Tales]

On the flip side, Didn't PC verse have more then 1 Kaiju for Humanity to deal with as a part of the setting? Sure, Godzilla tanks one no problem, what about ALL of them?

Depending on which Godzilla, he could solo every single thing even mentioned in side materials for the Pacific Rim-verse. At the same time.

And the heavens help you if you do composite Godzilla. I've seen him argued against Majin Buu to a standstill before.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

One that I've thought about is Syndrome (The Incredibles) vs. Emmet (The Lego Movie), under the logic that one wants to turn everyone super so that nobody is, and the other things that everyone is super and that's already awesome. :smalltongue:

I've just been too lazy to do it myself.
Thematically awesome, if nothing else. I haven't figured out if it'd be an interesting matchup.

As for what makes for an interesting VS thread? I guess that'll depend. A roflstomp VS thread doesn't really have much to discuss, so I guess it wouldn't be very interesting or fun. More interesting, I would think, is a VS thread where both sides are roughly comparable, and the question comes down to one of tactics, and how each side might overcome the other.

In fact, it would seem that the most interesting VS thread might be one where the objective isn't how to determine "who wins", but rather to determine how each side wins. (This would be somewhat like doing a Screw Attack VS video from each viewpoint. "This is why Side A wins" and "This is why Side B wins".)

Because let's face it: a lot of the fights out there boil down to uncertainties. Can they get X tactic ready in time? Will they be affected by Y? Those are things you can't have an absolute answer to. They're also things that won't come out the same, even as you repeat the fight. It's like flipping a coin. There's no one reliable outcome.

[Selrahc]

No such thing. The only fun vs threads are tongue-in-the-cheek ones, like Link vs Sephiroth in a basketball match (yes, that was a real thing).

Nah. Vs. threads are mini conversational research projects into a work of fiction, and as such an excuse to read a work of fiction that you probably enjoy with a critical eye. They're fun in general. In the same way that a book group or a film club is fun. Generally a lot more shallow, since you're not doing real criticism of story, just looking through events. But that's okay for a casual conversation on the internet.

If people treat them like they're a game to be won, or a serious meaningful argument, then they become stupid. And it is somewhat in the nature of the beast for that to happen, as things become a bit factional. "My dad would beat your dad. My favourite work of fiction would beat your favourite work of fiction" "I must crush all opposing arguments and make all bow down before my magnificent oratorical skills!!!". Still doesn't mean they *can't* be fun!

[Metahuman1]

Hmm, so, I've been kicking the though of an RWBY vs. thread around, but I'm having a hard time figuring out a good opponent verse for them to tag.


The three thoughts that crossed my mind were,

Pre-season 5 Buffy The Vampire Slayer, because otherwise Willow or Giles or one of the other castery-types probably destorys RWBYverse.

Devil May Cry

The Titans form Attack on Titan. (I'm kinda biased against this one cause I am convinced the mere fact that anyone is still alive in this setting means the Titans would get the floor mopped with them by the RWBYverse the instant anyone form RWBYverse figured out that utterly ridiculous one very special weak spot the Titans have. )

[MLai]

I wouldn't object to, I don't know, Hei vs. Spider-Man, as while both are protagonists of their respective series they're solidly mid-tier for their genres and have solidly defined limits on their powers and abilities..
I really love Hei's story, even season 2. I feel nothing for Spiderman.
I can still tell you that Spidey would mop the floor with Hei.

[The Glyphstone]

No such thing. The only fun vs threads are tongue-in-the-cheek ones, like Link vs Sephiroth in a basketball match (yes, that was a real thing).

I still think the one where we successfully pitted Old Spice Guy against The Most Interesting Man In The World was the best casual Vs.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I bet people would have a lot more fun in VS. threads if they decided to research and argue against their preferred side, or against the side that you initially think would win. It's a good way to get your mind thinking in unconventional ways, and to reconsider strengths and weaknesses in new lights.

Plus, it means that you're not rehashing the same arguments and data that you bring out every time your preferred VS champion appears.

[Mrc.]

Hmm, so, I've been kicking the though of an RWBY vs. thread around, but I'm having a hard time figuring out a good opponent verse for them to tag.

Also, we don't know how powerful most of the things in RWBY actually are. We've seen RWBY and JNPR and the C of CRDL but beyond that most of it is unknown. Ozpin could have the power to render all arguments against him invalid just by drinking coffee like a BOSS. We just don't know.

Having said that, I, too, would be interested in seeing how RWBY would match up in a fight against something. For this we would have to set some parameters (how prevalent is dust, which characters to include etc.) but it would be fun.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I really love Hei's story, even season 2. I feel nothing for Spiderman.
I can still tell you that Spidey would mop the floor with Hei.

I haven't watched much DtB but I figure it will still be more interesting than, say, Spidey fighting Electro.

Honestly I was just looking for "street-level (most of the time) guy with actual superpowers" from each medium.

[MLai]

I haven't watched much DtB but I figure it will still be more interesting than, say, Spidey fighting Electro.
Honestly I was just looking for "street-level (most of the time) guy with actual superpowers" from each medium.
The good/cool thing about DtB superpowers is that they don't come with "required secondary superpowers." You can have a woman who literally create mini black holes, but if you catch her by surprise with your fist she's still just a normal woman. Hei only seems like an action hero because he's that well-trained even before he gained his superpower, and actually that is his edge over other contractors, not his superpower which is actually quite ordinary.

This does not apply to Spiderman and almost all other mainstream comic book superheroes, due to power creep and the US trope convention of "all superpowers also come packaged with flight and Hollywood durability." Which is why Spiderman is overpowered compared to Hei. If Spiderman was created in the DtB universe, he'd be in trouble just from a gang of normals from LA.

[Fri]

No such thing. The only fun vs threads are tongue-in-the-cheek ones, like Link vs Sephiroth in a basketball match (yes, that was a real thing).
SRX team from Super Robot Wars OG versus SRT Team from Full Metal Panic

[Tengu_temp]

SRX team from Super Robot Wars OG versus SRT Team from Full Metal Panic

I will eat your soul with ketchup.
(Also it was ATX vs Urzu Team.)

[HandofShadows]

This does not apply to Spiderman and almost all other mainstream comic book superheroes, due to power creep and the US trope convention of "all superpowers also come packaged with flight and Hollywood durability." Which is why Spiderman is overpowered compared to Hei. If Spiderman was created in the DtB universe, he'd be in trouble just from a gang of normals from LA.

Actually, Spiderman's powers have been very well documented for a long time. (Spider Sense, Bench Press 10 tons, Stick to Walls, SUPER agile, very smart) The problem is that more than a few writers actually nerf Spidey's abilities for a story. Say getting hit by someone who is quick for a human being, but does not have super human speed. (While Spidey is looking right at them as they attack). But in many other stories Spidey is easily dodging 3 or 4 guys shooting assault rifles at him. So it's not so much as power creep, it when powers aren't being nerfed.

[Worira]

No such thing. The only fun vs threads are tongue-in-the-cheek ones, like Link vs Sephiroth in a basketball match (yes, that was a real thing).

I would argue just about every vs. thread would be better as a basketball match, except for maybe one between actual basketball players.


This does not apply to Spiderman and almost all other mainstream comic book superheroes, due to power creep and the US trope convention of "all superpowers also come packaged with flight and Hollywood durability." Which is why Spiderman is overpowered compared to Hei. If Spiderman was created in the DtB universe, he'd be in trouble just from a gang of normals from LA.

I'm not sure why you're picking a superhero without flight as an example of all superpowers coming with flight.

[MLai]

I'm not sure why you're picking a superhero without flight as an example of all superpowers coming with flight.
It's a general statement; Spidey has other required secondary powers that he enjoys.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

There's something I've considered that would make VS threads a lot more systematic. Unfortunately, it's also a bit math-nerdy. That is: a box-and-whiskers graph (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Box_plot).

You use a box-and-whiskers chart when you want to visually depict the spread of data in a set. For instance, let's say you wanted to see how someone's test scores looked. They might have some high ones, some low ones, but most of them will cluster in a specific range.

You use five data points for a box-and-whiskers chart.

The easiest to explain are the whiskers; you get them by plotting the absolute highest and absolute lowest points in the data set. The ends of the whiskers are my all-time peaks and valleys, my highest score and lowest score ever.

|-------------------------------|

The box is formed by looking at which number caps off the lowest 25% of the data...and which number caps off the highest 25% of the data. The 50% of the data left is then the bulk of the data--it's where most of the test scores are concentrated. The ends of the box are my typical peaks and valleys, where my high and low points usually end up.

|------|___________|------------|

The last point is the median: the item which is the exact middle item. Not middle in terms of value, but middle in terms of where it falls in the set. The median line is my average score. (Okay, technically, it's one of three ways to calculate my average. The box-and-whiskers graph uses median, though.)

|------|___|________|------------|

That gives you an idea of what a typical test score from me looks like, along with my absolute peaks and valleys are, and it tells you what my typical peaks and valleys are.

In the example above, it shows you that I generally tend towards the lower end of the spectrum, but above my average I have some notable peak results. Most of my test data is compressed into that one little low-ranking cluster, but I have reach across a decently broad range of results--it means that I'm capable of some great stuff, but usually don't achieve it.

So, to apply that to VS matches...

Every character has absolute highs and lows, the peaks and valleys to which they have ever risen or sank in their entire history. In a VS thread, these are their final limits. However, characters don't frequently go that far (out to the ends of the "whiskers"). Usually, characters' competency fluctuates between the bounds of that middle box; they have typical highs and lows. They also have an average performance, which is the line in that box.

If you charted up characters' performance on those (not always feasible, but hey), you'd see that a lot of them overlap in those boxes: that is, on a good day, Character A could beat Character B when Character B is having a not-so-good day (or got a bad roll of the dice). This is true even in a situation where Character B, on average, would beat Character A. At the same time, Character A might also have a whisker that goes way above what Character B has, because of a few crazy instances and deeds.

...and, really, I should just write an article on this somewhere and link to it. Because I probably confused a lot of people who haven't studied math. But I think it'd be interesting to acknowledge that sort of "fuzzy statistics", along with a study of the frequency of certain crazy feats.

[Tanuki Tales]

I'm not a fan of that concept, if only because I could see it being first used as a weapon to completely discredit Superman. This forum just seems to love their unknowingly one-sided Superman fights.

[Mrc.]

Nitpick: Actually, for a box plot you work out the standard deviation, and the 'whiskers' are the most extreme value that lies within 1.5 standard deviations from the mean. If you have values beyond this then they are considered outliers and not plotted. The whisker is then either at 1.5 times the standard deviation from the mean or at the most extreme value that lies within. /Nitpick

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I'm not a fan of that concept, if only because I could see it being first used as a weapon to completely discredit Superman. This forum just seems to love their unknowingly one-sided Superman fights.
I think it'd help put Supes in context, especially when it comes to gonzo Silver Age feats. Though, Supes has so many of those it might not even matter.

Nitpick: Actually, for a box plot you work out the standard deviation, and the 'whiskers' are the most extreme value that lies within 1.5 standard deviations from the mean. If you have values beyond this then they are considered outliers and not plotted. The whisker is then either at 1.5 times the standard deviation from the mean or at the most extreme value that lies within. /Nitpick
I checked the article; it varies in methodology. Same meaningful idea, though. :smallsmile:

[Tanuki Tales]

I think it'd help put Supes in context, especially when it comes to gonzo Silver Age feats. Though, Supes has so many of those it might not even matter.

Fan only pulls those out when people actually talk about PC Superman or make comments concerning the power of other versions of Superman. Most everything he pulls out is stuff Post Crisis Superman has done.