My first Warblade

[Rakaydos]

Recently found the Tome of Battle, so I decided to work it into a mid-level beatstick I was working on, and I was looking for critiques.

Probably not all that optimized- I dont really play 3.5 that much anymore.
http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=806922
Level 10 gestalt, and the race (dragon) was approved by DM for access a level early.
Thoughts?

[Crake]

Recently found the PDF of Tome of Battle

oohhhh dear, sounds like someone's been doing some pirating

[Falcon X]

Yeah dude, edit that out for legal purposes.

[Snowbluff]

You do know Warblade is free, (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2) right? XD

[Rakaydos]

Fixed. Any kind of optimization help?

[Red Fel]

So, if I'm reading your sheet correctly, it's a WoW 10 // Gold 5 / Monk 2 / Wbl 3?

Well, let's start with a disclaimer - despite really, really, wanting to, I have never played a dragon (played a Draconian, once, not quite the same), so I can't speak to that aspect of your build. So let's get into the part I can speak to.

First, I'm a bit surprised. You're willing to use ToB, but you'd rather use Monk/Warblade than Unarmed Swordsage? That's a peculiar choice. For one thing, one of the few things Monks get that Unarmed Swordsages don't is Flurry of Blows - which doesn't work with natural attacks, such as claws and tail (which I assume is part of why you're taking monk, for unarmed boosts). I would advise you to consider Unarmed Swordsage if you plan on fighting using natural weapons. I would also advise you to take the Beast Strike feat (Dragon Magazine), which will let you add claw damage to your unarmed strikes.

Let's assume for the moment that you're going with Warblade instead of Swordsage. It would help to know your combat style. Saying "mid-level beatstick" doesn't mean all that much. Are you going to be fighting in dragon form or some Alternate Form? Are you going to be a nimble fighter or an in-your-face affront to tactics? Do you plan to use flyby attacks, strafe with breath weapons? What you choose can determine what would work best.

There are certain strategies that are simply excellent in general. For example, the Diamond Mind save counters are magnificent. Punishing Stance is great if you plan on making a lot of iterative attacks. Wall of Blades is awesome (if your unarmed strikes count as melee weapons) and full of great flavor.

But even these strategies start to collapse when dragons are involved. You say your Gold Dragon is LA +5 - so it's a Very Young Dragon? That means you've got some pretty great saves to begin with, and a 19 base AC (9 touch), so you don't need much help there either. So as great as those classics are, it's not like you need the help.

This is why it's so important to have more information as to what your PC is going to do, and how, before I can offer anything with regard to optimizing your character. I can definitely tell you, however, that playing a Wyrm of War before you've ever played a regular ToB class is like running before you can walk; be careful.

Now, I have a question about the Wyrm of War archetype. As I understand, it allows you to replace spell slots with maneuvers. Does it still qualify you as a caster, however? Because if it does, consider how smoothly it would mesh with Jade Phoenix Mage. It's practically everything built right in. Just a point of personal curiosity.

[Snowbluff]

Is the LA on both sides of your Gestalt? If that's the case, drop it. Otherwise, I'm not sure if I am reading that right.

Draconomicon has rules for playing dragons at all level.

Drop Wis as a stat, take Kung Fu Genius/Carmendine Monk.

[Rakaydos]

Is the LA on both sides of your Gestalt? If that's the case, drop it. Otherwise, I'm not sure if I am reading that right.

Draconomicon has rules for playing dragons at all level.

Drop Wis as a stat, take Kung Fu Genius/Carmendine Monk.

DM said LA on one side, that did not have to be the same side as the RHD. (the reduction of RHD by 1 to fit in the level limit was oked separately by DM, with associated nat armor, skill, breath save, and so on reductions by 1 HD)

Kung fu geinus is a feat right? If I shift my focus from wis to int, how do I patch up my Will save? I tried to patch the holes of "typical" dragon defence (low touch AC and low Dex stat) and typical beatsticks (Low will defence), though I have little frame of reference for the actual numbers.

Concerning monk dip- 2 levels was enough to get Wis to AC in bare scales, Unarmed strike (which if I read the rules for natural and manufactured weapons, correctly, becomes my primary attack, and thus iterates), Flurry of blows (since unarmed strike is primary, and my 6 natural attacks all become secondary) and Deflect Arrows (since I fly, I can stop one successful hit per turn)
Concerning Wyrm of War, I'm actually using the Fighter version- 2 extra feats to make my natural attacks use my full attack bonus.

Despite being a level 10 gestalt, I'm only bringing 3 levels of warblade, and focusing on Stone Dragon maneuvers. Would swapping Warblade to Swordsage, and or monk to swordsage, be a significant improvement? (given I would lose flurry, deflect arrows, and the free D8 for unarmed strike?)

[Snowbluff]

Take a Vacation into the Otyugh Hole (Complete Scoundrel).

I wouldn't do Stone Dragon, since they only work on the ground. Dragons can fly, and I would take advantage of that fact.

I would replace Monk with Swordsage, then wear some light armor if I didn't care for FoB.

[Rakaydos]

I dont see anything in Stone Power (my source of Temp HP) that requires me to be on the ground, Nor did Mountian Hammer.

My real question then, is did I overkill on the things I'm good at? 10 attack full attack action (Unarmed strike, 6 natural attacks at full, Flurry, Snap kick, iterative attack), 30+ AC, a DR5/adamant for a round attack, up to 10 temp HP each standard action (Stone Power) and 13 HP recovered after each encounter.

[hamishspence]

I dont see anything in Stone Power (my source of Temp HP) that requires me to be on the ground, Nor did Mountian Hammer.


It's on page 81 of Tome of Battle - all Stone Dragon manuevers can only be initiated if you are in contact with the ground.

[Perseus]

I dont see anything in Stone Power (my source of Temp HP) that requires me to be on the ground, Nor did Mountian Hammer.

My real question then, is did I overkill on the things I'm good at? 10 attack full attack action (Unarmed strike, 6 natural attacks at full, Flurry, Snap kick, iterative attack), 30+ AC, a DR5/adamant for a round attack, up to 10 temp HP each standard action (Stone Power) and 13 HP recovered after each encounter.

The stances require you touching the ground and to not move more than 5 ft for the most part.

Some maneuvers may also require this. Ask the DM to get rid of that.

[Rakaydos]

...and this is why I get expert opinion. :p

Will my survivability be fine without the DR, and only using the temp HP when I dont use a maneuver?

It sounds like Iron Heart and Diamond Mind are my remaining focuses. I notice Swordsage cant use Iron heart- is 3rd level maneuvers worth not having access to Iron Heart? It was going to be my level 1 stance, and I had several maneuvers planned from it...

[Rakaydos]

It looks like, because I have 7 HD when I pick up my first ToB class, all my maneuvers can be level 2 and 3, is that correct? So by staying Warblade I can pick up Iron Heart Surge?

[Gavinfoxx]

Hunh. How would I stat out Temeraire. Interesting.

Have you read this?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=303204

I'd choose one of the dragons with a Sonic breath weapon... A refluffed Battle?

[Rakaydos]

Nah, I just stole the name. I'm actually playing closer to AuRon and the Copper from the Dragon Champion series.

Wend for gold because that handbook says they make the best beatsticks, and and monk because it suggests adding unarmed attacks to the full attaack routine and I was running out of feats. :p

[Gavinfoxx]

Damn. for THAT matter, how would I stat AuRon?! Brown, for the stealth? Shadow, with some trick to get it actual stealth skills via feats?

And AuRon isn't a beatstick, he's a stealthy type...

[Rakaydos]

Alright, you got me, I'm actually making a plain old beatstick and slapping a famous name on it. :p

(If I said Ruth, would you be asking how to stat a teleporting dragon? :p)

[Gavinfoxx]

Yeaaa... the only way to get long range teleportation, and teleportation through time (which totes exists, yo) and stuff is to be a caster... so you'd have to go one of the caster dragons, like a Steel or something...

[Rakaydos]

Any other good sources of dragon protagonists? (Eragon doesnt count)

[Snowbluff]

Any other good sources of dragon protagonists? (Eragon doesnt count)

Dragon's Dogma. Hehehehe...

[Gavinfoxx]

We staying literary or going for video games and movies as well?

[Rakaydos]

But yea, am I right in saying that as a WoW10//La5/Monk 2/Warblade 3, I get to pick up Iron Heart Surge and all three Diamond Mind "Concentration as saving throws" counters?

Dropping Monk to Swordsage loses me flurry, Deflect arrows, and my free Improved Unarmed Strike and unarmed damage. In return I get an inititive bonus and quite a few more stances and maneuvers.

If I can stack the diamond mind counters (1 each for SS and WB) that might be worth taking, but I dont know those rules yet. Otherwise, in my current build the monk dip is worth about 3 feats to me. (Imp Unarmed, Deflect arrows, Superior unarmed strike) That kind of opportunity cost is difficult to overcome.

[Rakaydos]

We staying literary or going for video games and movies as well?

Go for it. Sean Connery did a great dragon. :p

[Gavinfoxx]

Uhhh... Unarmed Variant Swordsage?

[Rakaydos]

Uhhh... Unarmed Variant Swordsage?

Where is that listed? (I'm still learning my way around the book)

[Snowbluff]

Where is that listed? (I'm still learning my way around the book)

It's an adaptation at the end of the Swordsage section. You lose armor proficiency for the monks Unarmed Strike class feature.

[Rakaydos]

...found it, finally. When I skimmed it the first part of the paragraph sounded like fluff, and the middle mentioned spells, so I skipped it. :p

Can I double up on the same maneuver if I can access it from multiple classes?

[Red Fel]

...found it, finally. When I skimmed it the first part of the paragraph sounded like fluff, and the middle mentioned spells, so I skipped it. :p

Can I double up on the same maneuver if I can access it from multiple classes?

I don't believe that you can get the same maneuver twice. Even if you could, you would have to separate your recovery methods - so if one use was acquired by Warblade and one by Swordsage, you would have to recover them separately.

Unarmed Swordsage is a pretty decent variant for this build, particularly because a dragon loses nothing by trading away an armor proficiency. As stated above, you miss out on Flurry, but since that doesn't work with natural attacks it's no big loss. Yes, you do miss out on some Iron Heart maneuvers, and those IH feats you seem to love, but you can get some nice stuff from Swordsage too.

By optimizing around flight-based combat, you can actually do quite a lot of harm. Moreso when you consider that many Desert Wind abilities trigger off of moving before striking, and even as a Very Young Gold Dragon, you have a 200 foot flight speed. You've got Flyby Attack - make use of it. With that and Wingover, you can take every turn to fly up to an enemy, make a standard attack, fly out of reach, and then turn around to prepare to do it again. Every turn. The catch, of course, is that as a standard action, you don't get iteratives. But since most maneuvers only grant you the one attack anyway, it's no big loss; further, by staying safely out of range, you can recover your maneuvers in relative safety. (If you go Swordsage, take Adaptive Style - it's practically a feat tax for the class - and it will recover all of your maneuvers for a full round action).

[Rakaydos]

Swordsages already recover their maneuvers as a full round action. Warblade recover theirs for a Swift and a Standard.

I reworked the monk levels into unarmed swordsage, but kept the warblade levels. Together, they give me an impressive bredth of abilities, while missing out on Deflect Arrows and my 10th attack in full attack.

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=806922

[Red Fel]

Swordsages already recover their maneuvers as a full round action. Warblade recover theirs for a Swift and a Standard.

Inaccurate. A Swordsage can recover one maneuver as a full-round action. With Adaptive Style, he can recover all of them, and also reset his maneuver selection on the fly. (Pardon the pun.)

In any event, it looks smooth, just remember to track your abilities separately.

Remember also to track IL. With your various levels, it gets a bit complicated.

[Rakaydos]

Hmm... perhaps I should move the Dimond Mind defensive maneuvers back to Warblade, then. Easier to get them back that way.

[Red Fel]

Hmm... perhaps I should move the Dimond Mind defensive maneuvers back to Warblade, then. Easier to get them back that way.

Basically. Since Warblade has the superior recovery mechanism, what you want from that are (1) any maneuvers you'll need quickly recovered, and (2) any that are exclusive to Warblade. So you can keep your DM counters there, and your IHS and the like, and perhaps White Raven if you do that sort of thing. Those are basically your go-tos. On your Swordsage list, you keep your tactical nukes - harder to recover, but since you get a boatload of them and in myriad flavors, it's much easier to find just the right one for just the right situation.

And again, remember that, according to the FAQ, you can not only use Adaptive Style to recover all maneuvers in a full-round action, but also to reset your readied maneuvers. That means that, in a pinch, you can switch out the ones you have for the ones you need, and have them all immediately refreshed.

Finally, if you have any feats left (and if your DM allows Dragon Magazine), I still think Beast Strikes is a good choice for you. It allows you to add claw damage to your unarmed strikes, which basically lets you double dip - you get claw damage on your unarmed strikes and again on your actual claw strikes. Admittedly, it functions better if you're focusing into your claw weapons, but if you were to switch out your Amulet of Mighty Fists for a Necklace of Natural Attacks*, you could slap magical enhancements on your claws and add them to your unarmed strikes as well.

Basically, it's about stacking your bonuses.

One final thought on the claws - remember that while unarmed strikes are a Discipline Weapon for Shadow Hand and Setting Sun, claws are a discipline weapon for Tiger Claw. Unarmed strikes are also a discipline weapon for Tiger Claw.

You know that Discipline Focus class ability for Swordsages? The one you get at first level? If you choose Tiger Claw, you get the benefit of Weapon Focus (+1 on all attack rolls) with weapons in that discipline. That includes unarmed strikes and claws. Two-fer.

Also in Tiger Claw are the Dancing Mongoose and Raging Mongoose maneuvers. Consider them. The Mongoose maneuvers are boosts, initiated as a swift action after you've made your attack. So they stack with a full attack. They let you make additional attacks with each weapon you wield, max two extra attacks for Dancing, four for Raging. Unarmed strikes count as a weapon here. Pick another - you've got plenty to choose from. These extra attacks are made at your highest BAB for those weapons. So, if you miss Flurry? You can have it back. And because Tiger Claw is native to both Swordsage and Warblade, you can take TC maneuvers via Warblade and use Warblade's superior recovery maneuver.

Admittedly, by the time you're getting Raging Mongoose you're fairly late into the game; these maneuvers are higher-end stuff. But if your goal is to be a draconic King of Smack, these will certainly facilitate that objective.

* With regard to AoMF vs. NoNA, the guide (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10994.0) points out that the advantage of NoNA is that you can add more than raw numbers, but the disadvantage is the increasing costs of multiple weapons. According to the guide, "The break even point between the two is at 3 weapons or more when the AoMF becomes cheaper." Ultimately, NoNA will give you more overall power, but AoMF will be more cost-effective if you want to enhance all of your natural weapons.

[Rakaydos]

Interesting points about Tiger claw. I may need to look into that.

Nice to have my choice of Amulet of Natural Attacks validated for me. As you said, the break even is 3 attack types. Between Unarmed Strikes (3 with snap kick), Claws (2) and Wing Bashes (again, 2), I cover three types without even getting into my bite or tailslap, at one attack each.

Which Dragon is Beast Strikes from? I dont have dragon, but I'll run it past my DM anyway...

[Red Fel]

Interesting points about Tiger claw. I may need to look into that.

Discipline Weapons aren't usually a big deal, but hey, a free +1 is a free +1. And depending on how willing you are to dig into that particular discipline, Mongoose can be very satisfying.


Nice to have my choice of Amulet of Natural Attacks validated for me. As you said, the break even is 3 attack types. Between Unarmed Strikes (3 with snap kick), Claws (2) and Wing Bashes (again, 2), I cover three types without even getting into my bite or tailslap, at one attack each.

Yup. As-is, AoMF is a good choice for you. The +X bonus applies across the board and lets you overcome DR/magic and similar effects. It's clean, cheap and easy.


Which Dragon is Beast Strikes from? I dont have dragon, but I'll run it past my DM anyway...

As I recall, it's DM #355. Amusingly, it applies your claw damage or your slam damage, so technically you could apply your Wing Slams instead (although I have no idea how you'd fluff that). Note that Beast Strike applies both to your unarmed attacks and your damaging grapples. Once you get large enough to use the Snatch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#snatch) feat, that means you can initiate grapples and basically deal double damage. (Grapples subject to Snatch deal automatic bite or claw damage, Beast Strike adds claw or slam damage to your grapple damage. Again, two-fer.)

[Rakaydos]

So, made a few tweaks... any last minute build optimization advice?
http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=806922

As It stands, I can flyby attack with 2 unarmed/claw combo attacks, and cleave once into another pair of unarmed/claws, and make a DC20 "Slippery Terrain" airborn tumble to avoid OAs on my way back out. Or I can use my bite as a reach weapon.

I can breath weapon, use a swordsage power that works like a breath weapon, then breath weapon again. If I land for a round and take a full round action, I can refresh the swordsage breath attack, and the real breath recovers every d4 rounds

If I land, I can swing 9 times in a full attack. I can gain temp HP anytime I attack, regain health at the end of combat, can use my concentration to shrug off spells, and remove status conditions with pure will.

And I've got a bow that I'm comically inept at using. :p

[Sith_Happens]

Just skimmed the thread so I'm not sure if anyone's said it already, but assuming you want to take advantage of your natural attack routine you should focus on boosts much more than strikes. Notable exceptions, of course, being any strike that involves making a full attack rather than a single attack.

[Rakaydos]

Most of the Warblade maneuvers I've got now are Counters, but the same general point applies.

[Red Fel]

Cursory examination? It's sick. In an oh-so-good way. I really like how it works together here.

This character is well executed. His enemies will be, too.

[Rakaydos]

Check my logic here.

With 5 levels of Wyrm of war already, can I
1)take 1 level of Warblade first to pick up a 2nd level Tiger claw maneuver,
2)take two more levels of Unarmed Swordsage and take Tiger claw as the school I get weapon focus with, without taking any tiger claw for swordsage?
3)take 2 more levels of Warblade for level 3 maneuvers?

I'm trying to shift the tiger claw maneuver into warblade to replace a diamond mind counter that my normal save is better than.

[Abithrios]

Warblade recover theirs for a Swift and a Standard.

Note that the standard action for the warblade part could instead be an attack, or one part of a full attack, as long as no maneuver is used.



And I've got a bow that I'm comically inept at using. :p

Hey, so does my crusader!