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Replacement
2007-01-30, 09:05 PM
I want to make a specialized wizard, but I can't decide on a school, I'm torn between Enchantment and Conjuration. So I would like to ask the forumites what they use and why?

Jack Mann
2007-01-30, 09:09 PM
Divination. There are plenty of useful divination spells (especially if you have access to the spell compendium) and you only have to give up one school (probably evocation). What's not to love?

Dhavaer
2007-01-30, 09:14 PM
Illusion. Then go into Master Specialist. You can end up throwing Shadow spells with immense DCs.

Replacement
2007-01-30, 09:35 PM
How high DCs, by when?

Dhavaer
2007-01-30, 09:39 PM
Depends on exactly what you're allowed to use. By about 13 you can get +4 above your Int and spell level with CompMage, Unearthed Arcana and the PHB. +5 if you use Ghostwalk and don't mind getting gimped on a regular basis.

Gralamin
2007-01-30, 09:41 PM
abjuration, and then into IotSFV
Invincibility for the win!

PMDM
2007-01-30, 09:42 PM
Assuming core, I would totally go for divination too. You're a wizard, you need to keep as much utility as you can.

Deathcow
2007-01-30, 09:43 PM
At that point, it depends on character flavor. Personally, of the two listed by the OP, I'd go with Enchantment. Although, if you're going to go heavily Enchantment, you may just want to make a Beguiler and be done. 'Cause Beguilers win.

Replacement
2007-01-30, 10:03 PM
Ok, so let me rephrase this alittle. What are the school you would give up?

Jack Mann
2007-01-30, 10:09 PM
Evocation. It has the fewest useful spells of any school (and you can generally use shadow evocation to duplicate the spells you really want). Beyond that? Well, it's a hard choice. You should never give up abjuration, conjuration, transmutation, and necromancy. They all have really useful things to cast. It really comes up down to illusion or enchantment for the second school. Since I want the shadow spells, I usually give up enchantment. It hurts, but anything else would hurt more.

Chris_Chandler
2007-01-30, 10:20 PM
Evocation, every time. I really don't care for most of the the spells in that school. I'd second illusion, but not for some crazy power reasons, but rather that they have the best flavor, as far as I'm concerned.

Woot Spitum
2007-01-30, 10:22 PM
It depends on whether you fight more monsters or more NPC's. If NPC's, go with enchantment, and have fun taking control of all your foes. If monsters, you may want to go with conjuration, since monsters tend to have higher saves, and won't be affected by enchantments as often.

TimeWizard
2007-01-30, 10:29 PM
Going to be the black sheep on this but if I specialize- Evocation. I know it's not optimal but god-damn it's fun. Really, fireball is THE spell of DnD in my opinion.

Besides, I have great Inspiration-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaarsuvius

Replacement
2007-01-30, 11:05 PM
Are there ways/feats/classes that you can make more of the schools forbidden?

I'm thinking of choosing Conjuration and forbidding, Evocation, Illusion, and then Enchant or Necro would get the spellbook axe.

Honestly, cutting my spell pool in more then half doesn't bother me if I can get some slight benefits from it.

Dhavaer
2007-01-30, 11:08 PM
I think Incantatrix makes you specialise in abjuration.

Dausuul
2007-01-30, 11:14 PM
Are there ways/feats/classes that you can make more of the schools forbidden?

I'm thinking of choosing Conjuration and forbidding, Evocation, Illusion, and then Enchant or Necro would get the spellbook axe.

Honestly, cutting my spell pool in more then half doesn't bother me if I can get some slight benefits from it.

Red Wizard of Thay, in the DMG.

My choices for specialty and forbidden schools really depend on the character.

Replacement
2007-01-30, 11:31 PM
Red Wizard of Thay, in the DMG.

My choices for specialty and forbidden schools really depend on the character.


Oooooo! I'm playing in FR too! MWHAHAHA:smallbiggrin:

Hamster_Ninja
2007-01-30, 11:40 PM
Are there ways/feats/classes that you can make more of the schools forbidden?

I'm thinking of choosing Conjuration and forbidding, Evocation, Illusion, and then Enchant or Necro would get the spellbook axe.

Honestly, cutting my spell pool in more then half doesn't bother me if I can get some slight benefits from it.
Theres also the focused specialist alternative class feature, you lose a spell prepared from each level and must choose another prohibited school (thats not divination), but you get two additional spells per day from your school.

AmoDman
2007-01-30, 11:42 PM
Wtf is with the evocation hate? Sure, utilitiy is great, but seriously, do your wizards never have to deal a lot fo damage to a lot of enemies fast? I'd drop Necromancy. It's, like, THE drop school IMO. But hey, whatever works for you.

Scorpina
2007-01-30, 11:42 PM
Divination. There are plenty of useful divination spells (especially if you have access to the spell compendium) and you only have to give up one school (probably evocation). What's not to love?

I agree wholeheartedly, although my diviners often drop Necromancy rather than Evocation for flavour reasons. That and 'Light' is an awesome Cantrip. If you're optimising though, ditchin Evocation is a good bet.

I also like Enchantment, but I find that basically reduces you to a three trick pony (Sleep, Charm/Dominate, Hold)

Gralamin
2007-01-30, 11:45 PM
Wtf is with the evocation hate? Sure, utilitiy is great, but seriously, do your wizards never have to deal a lot fo damage to a lot of enemies fast? I'd drop Necromancy. It's, like, THE drop school IMO. But hey, whatever works for you.

Damage can be done by anyone, and fighter types can do it better then Wizards. Special Effect's can only be done by casters, and help much more then say a fireball.

Replacement
2007-01-30, 11:46 PM
This is getting confusing and fun... anyone know any articles on the matter? Maybe Evocation needs to stick around, ARG!

Person_Man
2007-01-31, 12:03 AM
If you want to do Enchantment or Illusion, a Beguiler is usually the best way to go.

I'm a fan of Conjuration. Battlefield control is where its at.

JaronK
2007-01-31, 12:14 AM
The problem with Evocation is that other schools do everything it does better. Conjuration can handle the damage spells, with Orb of X for direct damage, Summon X for long term damage, etc. Shadow Evocation can handle the other spells if you really need them.

JaronK

Ruik
2007-01-31, 01:07 AM
I tend to point people at The Logic Ninja's Guide to Wizards: Being Batman (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18500) for stuff like this... there are some good arguments in there that will at least give you something to think about.

Ted_Stryker
2007-01-31, 01:18 AM
For banned schools, Evocation is the #1 choice for banning for sure, and then a toss-up between Enchantment and Necromancy for the other. If I were to be specializing in one of those two schools, that makes the choice for me. Otherwise, I usually lean towards banning Necromancy over Enchantment.

If you can play the Domain Wizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizardVariantDomainWiz ard) variant, it's kind of nice. The Conjuration, Illusion, and Transmutation domains are all pretty good choices.

Ninja Chocobo
2007-01-31, 02:04 AM
Transmutation. Mega-cheese from Polymorph and relatedness. And some great buffs.

Fizban
2007-01-31, 02:19 AM
I get where all the evocation hate comes from, but really, it's gonna be an odd group that doesn't expect the wizard to have a fireball or two. Plus, a lot of the AOE damage spells that aren't evocation have more restrictive areas that tend to put the caster closer to danger, unless you have sculpt spell. But then you're using a higher level slot for your probably higher level fireball replacement.

In sum: most groups will assume the caster will have some sort of nuke spell available, and while evocation does little else, it will take more resources than you want to spend when you need a nuke if you banned it.

Parlik
2007-01-31, 02:33 AM
Generally I find than when making a specialist is is more fun to go all the way and/or follow some theme, and then just make the most of the spells I do have available within that:

Conjurer: Drop Evocation and Enchantment, maybe make some druid like spellcaster, I would definetly get Improved Familar with this one, they do have a decent survival rate. Go for feats such as Augmented Summoning, and and other feats that boost your creatures, there is also a few feats usually reserved for Druids, however with a little talking your GM might allow them.

Enchanter: Could do a beguiler instead, but otherwise drop Evocation and Conjuration, I'd make some flamboyant talker with this specialization, and back it up with focusing on similarly minded skills such as Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense Motive, etc....

AmoDman
2007-01-31, 02:44 AM
I get where all the evocation hate comes from, but really, it's gonna be an odd group that doesn't expect the wizard to have a fireball or two. Plus, a lot of the AOE damage spells that aren't evocation have more restrictive areas that tend to put the caster closer to danger, unless you have sculpt spell. But then you're using a higher level slot for your probably higher level fireball replacement.

In sum: most groups will assume the caster will have some sort of nuke spell available, and while evocation does little else, it will take more resources than you want to spend when you need a nuke if you banned it.

I, I mean, I get it, but I didn't think the whole would be so against evocation. I don't know if I could paly a Wizard w/o it...it'd just feel wrong. *I cast fireb...cries*

p.s. If I were dropping a Wiz, it'd all depend on the type of character they were. I'd probably drop Necro and Enchant if I was specializing in non-divin. I love enchant, though...if I were to play an actual campaign in the next millenium, I'd probably try out that new spiffy-looking Beguiler.

Fat Daddy
2007-01-31, 02:47 AM
At that point, it depends on character flavor. Personally, of the two listed by the OP, I'd go with Enchantment. Although, if you're going to go heavily Enchantment, you may just want to make a Beguiler and be done. 'Cause Beguilers win.
I agree with Deathcow. IMO Beguilers pretty much make specialized enchanters redundant. I've never been a big fan of conjuration but if you like that, then having others fight your battles for you tends to play down your need for a party member as a meat shield.

Sactheminions
2007-01-31, 03:03 AM
Currently I'm playing a Necromancer who dropped Enchantment and Illusion. If I had it to do over again...

Abjurer3MasterSpecialist10IotSV7
Enchanter3MasterSpecialist10Mindbender1Fatespinner 4Archmage2
Sor1Wiz4WildMage1UltimateMagus10Archmage4

in any case, I'd drop Illusion and Evocation.

Saph
2007-01-31, 05:11 AM
Go for an Enchanter. Enchanters are great. :)

I play an Enchanter, banned schools Evocation and Necromancy. I went out of my way to take no damage-dealing spells whatsoever (the only one I've got in my spellbook is acid splash, and only because you get it automatically). Originally it was a RP decision (the character hates killing things) but I was surprised how effective it turned out to be. If I want something damaged, I hit it with a sleep or deep slumber or hideous laughter or glitterdust or grease and let the fighters deal with it. If the fight's hard, I use haste or slow. For personal defence, invisibility and alter self should keep you out of trouble.

Damage is easy. Everyone can do damage. Disabling an enemy with a single spell is MUCH more fun. :)

- Saph

Teloric
2007-02-02, 01:13 PM
It seems to me that the arguments against Evocation are mainly based on the way the game plays, and how the rules work. There are very few roleplaying reasons for dropping Evocation. The spells in this school are very Wizardly and very reasonable if you look at it in terms of traditional fantasy fiction. Just because a Fighter can do more damage is, in my opinion, a poor reason to drop this school.

I'm making a Wizard character that will be fighting the forces of evil, but using magics that are very subtle. Naturally, Necromancy, to my character, is the worst kind of black magic, so he won't touch it. And, since Evocation is the least subtle of magics, he is dropping it as well.

As for which school he'll specialize in, Transmutation can be very subtle with many spells that alter reality with little or no perceived effects. The same can be said for Enchantment or even Conjuration. So, at the moment I am undecided which school to select. It may come down to placing the emphasis on fighting evil, or on more subtlety...

Hope this helps...

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-02, 01:21 PM
There are PLENTY of roleplay reasons for dropping evocation. To quote Severian Tallerond-Ashe, my snooty Sun Elf wizard, "oh, please. Why would I use the power of the arcane to break things? If I want something broken, I will tell the warrior to go break it. If it fights back, I will enchant the warrior, first. It's as simple as that."

It's trivial to explain the decision to drop Evocation in character. it could be as simple as "extensive studies performed by my Wizard's College have shown that this school of magic contains very few spells of note; I'll do without in favor of mastery of another, which contains many such" or "that's just how my master taught me".

The spells in Evocation are only "very wizardly" from an out-of-character standpoint; from a wizard's IC standpoint, they're no more or less so than any other spells.

barawn
2007-02-02, 01:33 PM
It seems to me that the arguments against Evocation are mainly based on the way the game plays, and how the rules work.

Also seems to be more of a "the way a traditional game plays", as well. Depends on what the role of the wizard is going to be (and what the player wants it to be).

barawn
2007-02-02, 01:43 PM
To quote Severian Tallerond-Ashe, my snooty Sun Elf wizard, "oh, please. Why would I use the power of the arcane to break things? If I want something broken, I will tell the warrior to go break it. If it fights back, I will enchant the warrior, first. It's as simple as that."

To quote my last character, "You want me... to rely on him? He can barely talk in complete sentences! I'll do it myself. If I can't finish the thing off, then I'll rely on them. From a safe distance. Behind a rock. A very, very big rock. From a very, very far safe distance."


It's trivial to explain the decision to drop Evocation in character.

That's assuming that your character knows who he's going to be travelling with when he's studying, though. "Very few spells of note"? An Evoker would say "the spells of Evocation are clearly the best, therefore they need very few spells at all!"

You can make up decisions to drop or keep any school in character, regardless of how powerful or weak it is.


The spells in Evocation are only "very wizardly" from an out-of-character standpoint; from a wizard's IC standpoint, they're no more or less so than any other spells.

From a wizard's IC standpoint, they're the main method of dealing damage. If a wizard is fine with that, then dropping Evocation is fine.

It all depends on the personality of the character involved. A very solitary wizard wouldn't feel very comfortable, I imagine. Then again, a very solitary wizard wouldn't be likely to give up any schools at all.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-02, 01:53 PM
To quote my last character, "You want me... to rely on him? He can barely talk in complete sentences! I'll do it myself. If I can't finish the thing off, then I'll rely on them. From a safe distance. Behind a rock. A very, very big rock. From a very, very far safe distance."
Sure. You can justify keeping evocation in character. It's as easy as "I like the BIG booms".


That's assuming that your character knows who he's going to be travelling with when he's studying, though. "Very few spells of note"? An Evoker would say "the spells of Evocation are clearly the best, therefore they need very few spells at all!"
"Of note" as in good, effective.


You can make up decisions to drop or keep any school in character, regardless of how powerful or weak it is.
Yes, exactly. So there's no problem with people dropping evocation.


From a wizard's IC standpoint, they're the main method of dealing damage. If a wizard is fine with that, then dropping Evocation is fine.
If a wizard knows a little about what higher-level spells are like, he'll know that actually, Evocation ISN'T the best way of dealing damage. Conjuration and Transmutation are, with occasional Necromancy.


It all depends on the personality of the character involved. A very solitary wizard wouldn't feel very comfortable, I imagine. Then again, a very solitary wizard wouldn't be likely to give up any schools at all.
You said, "There are very few roleplaying reasons for dropping Evocation."
I demonstrated that this is patently untrue. There are lots of different reasons for dropping Evocation. They don't even need to be correct or truthful. It's as easy as deciding your character doesn't like blowing things up. You yourself agreed--"You can make up decisions to drop or keep any school in character, regardless of how powerful or weak it is." Which contradicts your earlier statement, I guess. That's all that roleplaying is--making things up.

barawn
2007-02-02, 02:02 PM
"Of note" as in good, effective.

That depends on what the character thinks is good/effective, though.


If a wizard knows a little about what higher-level spells are like, he'll know that actually, Evocation ISN'T the best way of dealing damage. Conjuration and Transmutation are, with occasional Necromancy.

That assumes that the wizard believes he'll get to the highest-level of spells. What's the average lifespan of an adventurer? I'd imagine most wizards would prefer to enhance their chances to live till next year, not enhance their power ten years from now.


I demonstrated that this is patently untrue. There are lots of different reasons for dropping Evocation.

Wasn't actually me. But I think the point that he (and I) was trying to make was that there aren't many in character reasons for choosing to drop Evocation over the other schools.

Wait, that's poorly worded. What I meant was "in character, it's not a glaringly obvious choice." As in, not every teacher in a wizard school is going to say "Drop Evocation, you'll never need it." At least, not significantly more than they'll say "Drop Enchantment, you'll never need it," or any other school. They all have their advantages.

That's part of the problem with building a wizard with out of character knowledge about how they'll deveop 10 years down the line. If they die, eh, you start another character - compare this to the downside of not having the coolest character evar at level 10-20, and yeah, you'll maximize them. But I imagine they value their own life a little higher.

Castaras
2007-02-02, 02:08 PM
I prefer not to specialize, and use feats for that kind of thing. I mean, in all schools there are spells I love using, so I always make a bog standard wizard who does everything. Well chosen feats are your friend.

But I prefer Sorcerers to Wizards, so don't listen too hard to me rambling on.

Dausuul
2007-02-02, 02:11 PM
One other thing to keep in mind is the expected level of the campaign. Lots of people around here seem to design their characters on the basis of "What combination of powers and abilities will result in SUPREME ULTIMATE POWER when I hit 20th level?"

Don't know about anyone else, but I've never played a campaign that went to 20th level. Or even 15th. I've played maybe 3-4 campaigns that went past 10th, and that's over almost twenty years of playing D&D. So when I plan out my characters, I'm looking primarily at "What's going to be fun and effective within the next 1-3 levels?" If the campaign starts at level 5, then I'm not likely ever to get past fifth-level spells.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-02, 02:15 PM
One other thing to keep in mind is the expected level of the campaign. Lots of people around here seem to design their characters on the basis of "What combination of powers and abilities will result in SUPREME ULTIMATE POWER when I hit 20th level?"
That's... not true. At all. Look at the characters people actually submit to the PbP games.

codexgigas
2007-02-02, 04:12 PM
I'm currently playing a focused specialist Illusionist, and really enjoying it. My three drops were enchantment, evocation, and conjuration. It hasn't gimped me too much; enchantment and illusion contain a substantial degree of overlap, and I can gain access to evocation and most of the best conjuration spells through their shadow equivalents. From a pure mechanics standpoint, Illusionists get some of the best benefits from Master Specialist (Comp. Mage). We just hit level 15, and I've started taking levels in Nightmare Spinner (also from Comp. Mage), which is wonderful for an Illusionist. I get four bonus illusion spells per level per day, all at the cost of one spell slot per level.

As far as which schools to ban, evocation is an easy choice, simply because you can use illusion spells to mimic the effects of all evocations lower than 7th level. Conjuration's a bit harder, as shadow conjuration is more restrictive in what it can do, but it's still doable. The thing you'll miss most from Abjuration is dispel magic, which is very, very nice to have, but you could conceivably do just fine with out it. If you're specializing in enchantment, it's easy to drop illusion, and vice versa. Necromancy's a good drop for flavor reasons, and though it has some good spells, you can be perfectly effective without it. Transmutation's really the hardest school to drop, since it does so many different things. You could live without it, but it's not easy.

My wizard's spellbook is heavy on illusions (obviously) and necromancy, with select transmutations and abjurations, and one or two divinations thrown in. I've been able to help the party in a support role, and illusions work decently well for battlefield control, especially since I've done a lot to pump my DCs way up. It's a fun way to go (at least for me), but it's not the only way. Honestly, it's hard to make an ineffective wizard character; there's just so much that they can do through their spells.

Ted_Stryker
2007-02-02, 04:18 PM
I'm currently playing a focused specialist Illusionist, and really enjoying it. My three drops were enchantment, evocation, and conjuration.
Out of curiosity, why did you have to drop three schools to specialize? Usually it's just two barred schools for a specialist.

codexgigas
2007-02-02, 04:24 PM
I took the focused specialist variant from Complete Mage. You ban a third school and lose a wizard spell slot at each level you can cast spells. In exhange, you get to prepare two extra spells from your specialty school school at each level, in addition to the extra spells you alread get from specialization. Depending on your choice of specialization, it's worth it.

Ted_Stryker
2007-02-02, 06:59 PM
I took the focused specialist variant from Complete Mage. You ban a third school and lose a wizard spell slot at each level you can cast spells. In exhange, you get to prepare two extra spells from your specialty school school at each level, in addition to the extra spells you alread get from specialization. Depending on your choice of specialization, it's worth it.
Ah, I don't have Complete Mage, so this is a new one on me. Thanks for the info.

RaistlinandPals
2007-02-02, 07:07 PM
Wow, so much Evocation bashing...makes me QQ. Sure you can have Illusion mimic the effects of Evocation, but are they going be as good? I am proud to say that I love the Evocation school and most of my wizards HAVE BEEN EVOKERS. Currently I am playing a focused Illusionist because illusion is another of my favorites. My ban schools are Ench, Necro, and Abjuration. And a fighter who can do more damage than a mage? Lets see him/her get to me first. I agree entirely with the opinion that fireball is too much fun. A wizard without illusion or evocation? No fireball?!

/endrant