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Scalenex
2007-01-30, 09:25 PM
I tried to create a theme based sorcerer. A half-dragon barbarian/sorcerer who ruled a northern tribe, nicknamed the Ice Queen. I figured she'd have a lot of cold-based attacks being from a frigid region and being descended from something roughly the same as a white dragon (I use homebrew dragons). There aren't a lot of cold spells to go around

0th Ray of Frost
1st Chill Touch
2nd Nothing
3rd Still Nothing
4th Wall of Ice, Ice Storm
5th Cone of Cold (not that I was planning to have her be this high in level being multi-classed with a negative level adjustment)

Considering how D&D loves to bring in the four classic elements of Western philosophy and metaphysics for as many things as possible (Planes, Domains, Prestige classes), Water (which tends to hold Cold based spells under it's perview), Earth, and Wind get the shaft unless you get really abstract (making Hold Person an Earth for instance). Along the lines of energy attacks, electricity lags noticably behind fire and acid and poor SONIC! really lag. I consider it a mild problem because of the fact that a suit of armor with Sonic Resistance is just as likely to be rolled as one with Fire resistance. Is there a way to add more spells of non-fire based energies without simply copying them (Scorching Ray gets three new buddies, Freezing Ray, Sonic Blast Ray, and Minor Lightning Bolt)?

Scorpina
2007-01-30, 09:30 PM
Well, the easiest fix is just to take Energy Substitution (Cold) and/or hunt down cold themed spells from non-core books. Frostburn seems a good place to start...

MandibleBones
2007-01-30, 09:31 PM
As much as I'm about to get yelled at for this, why not consider going Warmage instead of Sorcerer? Your character seems to be going the blaster route anyway, and Warmage's Armored Mage ability would at least let you wear the light armor of a barbarian. There's quite a few more ice spells on the Warmage list, too - at least one at each level, if memory serves.

oriong
2007-01-30, 09:32 PM
Well, if you look beyond the core books there is quite a bit more variety. I imagine the spell compendium will have a ton of them.

But really it's also not unreasonable. If you go by 'elements' then it's not exactly illogical that fire (the most destructive and 'energetic' of the 4) will have the most damaging spells to it's name.

Rigeld2
2007-01-30, 09:35 PM
As much as I'm about to get yelled at for this, why not consider going Warmage instead of Sorcerer? Your character seems to be going the blaster route anyway, and Warmage's Armored Mage ability would at least let you wear the light armor of a barbarian. There's quite a few more ice spells on the Warmage list, too - at least one at each level, if memory serves.
That would actually make the most sense from a flavor standpoint. From an optimization standpoint, the idea is already subpar so it doesnt matter what you do with it really :)

I would drop Sorc and grab Warmage.

The Vorpal Tribble
2007-01-30, 09:59 PM
Frostburn introduces, oh, maybe a hundred cold-based spells. Go to town :smallwink:

Wehrkind
2007-01-30, 10:08 PM
Ok, here is what I don't get: How do you conquer the frozen north with cold spells? Half of everything there is immune or resistant to cold. I would think if you really wanted to trash things, you would want fire spells.

That's just always been a peeve of mine in games.

Deathcow
2007-01-30, 10:14 PM
Ok, here is what I don't get: How do you conquer the frozen north with cold spells? Half of everything there is immune or resistant to cold. I would think if you really wanted to trash things, you would want fire spells.

That's just always been a peeve of mine in games.

Because the cold-based creatures of the north bow in awe of your mighty mastery of the element that aids, nay, comprises the core of their being!

Woot Spitum
2007-01-30, 10:14 PM
Ok, here is what I don't get: How do you conquer the frozen north with cold spells? Half of everything there is immune or resistant to cold. I would think if you really wanted to trash things, you would want fire spells.

That's just always been a peeve of mine in games.

I have never understood it either. I suppose it makes sense as far as campaign flavor, but as far as functionality, it stinks. It always seems like whenever there's a book about a certain environment in D&D, there's always a PrC themed off that environment. And said class's strongest abilities are least effective in that environment because everything living there is resistant to those abilities.

adanedhel9
2007-01-30, 10:27 PM
You forgot fire shield at 4th, which can be used as a [cold] spell.

Others have made good suggestions, but I have one more to add: don't be so literal. You can do a lot to support a theme with fluff alone. Make your glitterdust be snowflakes. Frost shows up creatures affected by your slow spell. protection from arrows blasts projectiles with bolts of ice.

I understand your problem. I have attempted, on several occasions, to make a storm mage... but I've found that I simply can't do it well within the rules available. But with a little fluff, and Energy Substitution (electricity), I've managed to turn a spirit shaman into a master of storms that I like far better than many a previous wizard or sorcerer build... builds which focused entirely on spells that were obviously stormy.

Hyrael
2007-01-30, 10:50 PM
As much as I'm about to get yelled at for this, why not consider going Warmage instead of Sorcerer? Your character seems to be going the blaster route anyway, and Warmage's Armored Mage ability would at least let you wear the light armor of a barbarian. There's quite a few more ice spells on the Warmage list, too - at least one at each level, if memory serves.
Because, any sorceror worth his salt doesnt just take all blasting spells. he also takes utility, buffs, save or suck, and so on. An Ice sorceror would take blasting spells, as well as effects like Resist Energy, Grease (flavor changed, of course), Hold Person, Mage Armor (cover yourself with ice), Ray of Clumsyness (like Ray of Enfeeblement, but dex damange), and a ton of other effects. Remeber, the theme isnt just cold, it's The blasting, harsh rage of the frozen wastes, The frostbitten wind that blows from the north to scour the world of the weak, the ice that can be shaped into anything you want, that can be defense, home, and weapon all in one. the delicate perfection to be found in a single snowflake, and the lethal potential of the snowstorm.

The spell compendium has tons of cool spells, and quite a few ice spells. go for that.

Thomas
2007-01-31, 12:41 AM
Ok, here is what I don't get: How do you conquer the frozen north with cold spells? Half of everything there is immune or resistant to cold. I would think if you really wanted to trash things, you would want fire spells.

I'm pretty sure those spells are supposed to be derived from the frostfell, not utilized against it. They're pretty clearly "enemy spells."

Orzel
2007-01-31, 01:00 AM
Ok, here is what I don't get: How do you conquer the frozen north with cold spells? Half of everything there is immune or resistant to cold. I would think if you really wanted to trash things, you would want fire spells.

That's just always been a peeve of mine in games.

because they always print a "so cold that it chills cold creatures" feat like Piercing Cold.

Magic strategy is environment books is to grab to pierce feat then stack environmental feats/features that boost caster level/damage/duration.

Wehrkind
2007-01-31, 01:43 AM
Or, you know, buy a zippo and a can of hair spray (or a torce and bottle of dwarven spirits) and just watch those Immune to Ice/Vulnerable to Fire critters cower.

Doesn't even cost a feat.

Jade_Tarem
2007-01-31, 01:51 AM
Moving back to cold themes.

You don't even nescessarily need Frostburn, the Spell compendium has a huge listing of cold spells, including a whole line of ice, sonic, and electricity spells that don't have firey counterparts. Acid still gets the shaft, though, except for that one acid spell that just creates a ton of it. And there's also water spells like Tsunami to quench your desire for non-fire spells.

Ice lance is a real fun one. "You summoned a giant icicle and did what with it?"

Fizban
2007-01-31, 02:51 AM
Ice lance kinda sucks.

If you only have cold damage spells, then you'll need piercing cold for cold resistant/immune enemies. Other than that, get cold substitution or look for splatbook spells. Everyone playing a caster should be reading the spell compendium, it has cold spells too.

Cruiser1
2007-01-31, 05:31 AM
There aren't a lot of cold spells to go around

0th Ray of Frost
1st Chill Touch
2nd Nothing
3rd Still Nothing
4th Wall of Ice, Ice Storm
5th Cone of ColdHere are some more standard PHB spells you could use:

2nd: Gust of Wind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gustOfWind.htm), Resist Energy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resistEnergy.htm) (against cold only)
3rd: Sleet Storm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sleetStorm.htm), Protection From Energy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromEnergy.htm) (against cold only)
6th: Freezing Sphere (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/freezingSphere.htm) (if you level up that high)

Gust of Wind fits the arctic theme since I've always visualized it as an icy wind. The two defensive spells are nice because they can explain why you're never affected by cold yourself, and they allow you to do cool things like protect your allies and then blast everyone with a Cone of Cold. If you go Druid a good 2nd level spell is Chill Metal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/chillMetal.htm).

Vik
2007-01-31, 05:35 AM
You can also ask your DM to take fire spells as cold ones, without the spending of a feat. Ice ball, Freezing ray, and so on. That's fair, as Cold energy is at best equal to fire.

Jade_Tarem
2007-01-31, 11:42 AM
Ice lance kinda sucks.

It's the principle of the thing.

pestilenceawaits
2007-01-31, 12:09 PM
I have to chime in on frostburn also I was just reading yesterday and there are a lot of really nice cold based spells. There are prestige classes for cold based arcane casters as well. I also agree that just about any spell that exists as one element can be turned to another element instead just cold bolt and ice ball instead of lightning bolt and fireball.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-01-31, 12:28 PM
There's also Elemental Orb (Ice), Lesser at 1st and Elemental Orb (Ice) at 4th. Both are Conj spells which offer no SR, which can be valuable at times, and decent damage. The 4th level version slows down opponents who fail a fort save. Both are ranged attack spells without saves.

Both are from Tome and Blood, but likely reprinted later.

Elemental Substitution (cold) can be very handy for you. Just pick up whatever spell you want, then sub out Cold for whatever. Want a mini-polar ray? Sub Cold from Scorching ray for Freezing Ray. Done. How about Iceball rather than Fireball? There are all kinds of things you can do with elemental flavor if you want.

Oh, I'd highly reccomend the Elemental Savant PrC, if you go that far in spellcasting. It's right up your alley. While you couldn't get the 'capstone' ability until near epic, becoming an outsider with hefty DR/Magic is always a handy thing to have.

Thomas
2007-01-31, 12:40 PM
There's also Elemental Orb (Ice), Lesser at 1st and Elemental Orb (Ice) at 4th. Both are Conj spells which offer no SR, which can be valuable at times, and decent damage. The 4th level version slows down opponents who fail a fort save. Both are ranged attack spells without saves.

Both are from Tome and Blood, but likely reprinted later.

Spell Compendium.

Everyone should have that book, just because.

SpiderBrigade
2007-01-31, 12:48 PM
Spell Thematics would also not be a bad feat for this. Not only do you get to pick a "signature" spell at each level to get +1 caster level on, but all your spells get the aesthetic theme applied to them. And, yes, you need Energy Substitution [Cold].

Or, you need a DM who will let you go through the list of spells with the Energy descriptor, and create new versions of them that are [Cold] instead. Can anyone think of a potential balance problem with this? I cannot.

Misplaced_Jedi
2007-01-31, 12:54 PM
Heck, they already copied Cone of Cold with Blast of Flame. Precedent's there, at least.

Jayabalard
2007-01-31, 01:00 PM
personally, I would just find fire spells that I liked and come up with cold versions of the same spells. For most blaster spells, it's not a mechanic change except for the type of energy used.

Telonius
2007-01-31, 01:03 PM
Good news (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#addingSpellstoaWizardsSpellbook)f or you.


A wizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#wizard) also can research a spell independently, duplicating an existing spell or creating an entirely new one.


Adding Spells to a Sorcerer’s or Bard’s Repertoire

With permission, sorcerers and bards can also select the spells they gain from new and unusual spells that they have gained some understanding of.


All at no cost. In fact, I'd consider giving you some RP XP for that, if I were DM.

SpiderBrigade
2007-01-31, 01:07 PM
With permission, though. Some DMs are going to have a gut reaction of "there must be some trick you're trying to pull here, by making an Iceball spell." Personally I would allow it, but it often helps to have a rules-supported method that doesn't require DM approval.

axraelshelm
2007-01-31, 01:08 PM
i agree we normaly just convert the already existing spells and just change the energy part but if you want to cast it in another the the energy substitions feat is needed.

much easier without purchasing anymore books for damage dealing but for transmutation thats another story you always need more transmutation spells.
sigh

NullAshton
2007-01-31, 01:09 PM
A single level of elemental savant will make it so that ALL energy spells are converted to a single type. As far as I know, that includes scrolls, which would be... interesting.

axraelshelm
2007-01-31, 01:18 PM
A single level of elemental savant will make it so that ALL energy spells are converted to a single type. As far as I know, that includes scrolls, which would be... interesting.

i dont know good for the poster but i play a fire base wizard and i have sonic as back up because it sucks when something has immunity to that 1 element that you have prepared. Although cool prc i realy like complete arcane, mage was abit of a let down it tried to be abit more roleplay friendly but it lacked in detail what the different type of spell caster personality.

Shatenjager
2007-01-31, 01:26 PM
Wouldn't the Wu-gen spell list do a good job with elemental spells like this?

SpiderBrigade
2007-01-31, 01:38 PM
i agree we normaly just convert the already existing spells and just change the energy part but if you want to cast it in another the the energy substitions feat is needed.
Can you clarify what you mean by this? Specifically the bolded part?

Closet_Skeleton
2007-01-31, 03:58 PM
Fire is inherently better than cold. All these cold mages from the frozen north have a major problem. They need to leave the frozen north or they're useless because everyone's immune to cold up there. A fire mage would conquor the north so easily.

Burning stuff is just so much better than freezing it. You don't get Cryomaniacs. When you set something alight then flames slowly spread over it, it's surface blakens, it starts to crumble and collapse to ash. When you freeze something it just stays frozen. Boring.

The only advantage to cold is freeze-thaw, but then you need heat for that. Fire is so good it can make cold useful.

axraelshelm
2007-01-31, 04:14 PM
Can you clarify what you mean by this? Specifically the bolded part?

well if the original spell that is created is a ice type "fireball" then it will be a iceball that explodes in a 20 foot radius but when you want to change the energy type from ice to acid you need the energy substition feat.

SpiderBrigade
2007-01-31, 04:20 PM
Ok, I see what you mean. Do remember, though, that Energy Substition makes you specify one type of energy, to which you may then switch your spells. So if you have nothing but cold spells, you'll be able to switch to one other energy type if you take the feat.

I guess it looks like it's more useful to take the "regular" spells, and switch them to [cold] using Energy Sub. Otherwise you lose out on a lot of versatility.

MrNexx
2007-01-31, 05:42 PM
Yeah, someone trying to make an elemental-themed sorcerer is already somewhat gimping themselves (since I can throw something immune to that energy at them). If they're going to only take that kind of energy, I have no problem with them turning any energy spell they want into their favored energy without a feat as a permanent change... i.e. they don't know Scorching Ray, but Freezing Ray.

Fax Celestis
2007-01-31, 05:58 PM
You don't get Cryomaniacs.

Except you do, and electromaniacs too.

Gamebird
2007-01-31, 06:04 PM
...go through the list of spells with the Energy descriptor, and create new versions of them that are [Cold] instead. Can anyone think of a potential balance problem with this? I cannot.

Yes. This:
i play a fire base wizard and i have sonic as back up because it sucks when something has immunity to that 1 element that you have prepared.

The current system and core monster compliment includes a great many creatures that use fire and/or have resistance to it. Virtually nothing uses or resists sonic energy and very few use or resist the other elements (electricity, cold, or acid). Unless the DM also changes the monster mix, changing access to spells of certain energy types changes the effectiveness of blasty spells. If a caster has all sonic spells without a change in spell power, then they can expect their spells to be more effective against the usual mix of monsters.

This is heavily dependent on the type of monsters the DM tosses at the party. Fire also sets things alight and may continue burning, something no other energy type does (without house rules).

Thomas
2007-01-31, 06:37 PM
Actually, just in the SRD, there's dozens of critters with resistance or immunity to either of electricity or cold... acid is rarer, and sonic is the rarest. Sonic spells are almost always weaker in damage capacity than other elemental spells.


Electricity is the coolest element, anyway. There's that one crazy 8th- or 9th-level spell in the Spell Compendium that creates a ring of lightning around you...

Fax Celestis
2007-01-31, 06:42 PM
Electricity is the coolest element, anyway. There's that one crazy 8th- or 9th-level spell in the Spell Compendium that creates a ring of lightning around you...

It's prettiest too.

SpiderBrigade
2007-01-31, 06:45 PM
Notice also I didn't say "does anyone see a problem with allowing a mage to take nothing but [sonic] spells." I really did mean Cold, specifically. The fact that Energy Substitution doesn't allow Sonic as one of the choices should be a tipoff that it's a bit more powerful than the standard choices.

NEO|Phyte
2007-01-31, 08:54 PM
Electricity is the coolest element, anyway. There's that one crazy 8th- or 9th-level spell in the Spell Compendium that creates a ring of lightning around you...You forgot the part where it lets you shoot out 2 5d6 lightning bolts as a free action each round.

axraelshelm
2007-02-01, 01:36 AM
But what about the orbs spells? okay they are only single taget use but only big critters most of the time have any resistant against anything.
So fireball the gumbys surrounding the bbeg he'll cast something do spell craft check oh no he has fire immunity my one core element thank helm I have a sonic orb here in my hands! that does the same ammount of damage as a fireball "until beyond level 10" and the save is higher!

Gamebird
2007-02-01, 11:28 AM
Notice also I didn't say "does anyone see a problem with allowing a mage to take nothing but [sonic] spells." I really did mean Cold, specifically. The fact that Energy Substitution doesn't allow Sonic as one of the choices should be a tipoff that it's a bit more powerful than the standard choices.

Yeah, it was the end of worktime and I had to run, so I didn't really have time to complete the post. Cold isn't a big problem. If anything, it's weaker than fire. But it is worth noting that the system as built, is built with a certain mix of spells and monsters in mind. Change that mix and you have to be aware of possible unintended consequences.

volrathxp
2007-02-01, 11:57 AM
Energy Substitution is a great feat. There's also a feat in Dragon Compendium for Elemental spells called Elemental Theurgy (i think) that lets you increase your caster level for elemental spells.

Add in a little Energy Admixture... and it's all good.

And yes... Frostburn and Spell Compendium = fun. And if you really need to knock down an opponent... Shivering Touch for the win. 3d6 Dex damage w/ no Saving Throw is simply dirty. :)

Talya
2007-02-01, 12:13 PM
BTW, if you ever choose fire instead of cold, the (regional FR) feat "Bloodline of Fire" is quite good.