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Fax Celestis
2007-01-30, 10:00 PM
Okay, so the following follows a simple premise: the monk's unarmed strikes are both natural and manufactured weapons.

Thri-Kreen, having four arms, are eligible for Multiattack and Multiweapon Fighting.

So consider thus: A Thri-Kreen Monk 20 (buying off the +1 LA) has a BAB of +16, giving us an attack pattern of +16/+11/+6/+1. Take TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Multiattack, MWF, IMWF, and GMWF. There's your seven feats. Hell, take a flaw and grab Snap Kick too.

So without Flurry, that gives us an attack pattern of +12/+7/+2/-3/+12/+7/+2/-3/+12/+7/+2/-3/+12/+7/+2/-3/+12/+7/+2/-3/+12/+12/+12/+12/+12.

That is, Primary/Secondary (TWF)/Secondary (MWF)/Tertiary (MWF)/Quaternary (MWF)/Secondary (Multiattack: second, third, fourth arms, bite)/Snap Kick.

Now, toss in Flurry of Blows for an absolutely ridiculous attack pattern:

+12/+12/+12/+7/+2/-3//+12/+7/+2/-3/+12/+7/+2/-3/+12/+7/+2/-3/+12/+7/+2/-3/+12/+12/+12/+12/+12.

Monks also can get Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat. Pump your Dex. Watch your DM groan whenever you attack.

NEO|Phyte
2007-01-30, 10:05 PM
Ermmm, if I'm following that attack pattern correctly, how are you getting 4 attacks per weapon without Perfect Multiweapon Fighting?

Also,
Special

This feat replaces the Two-Weapon Fighting feat for creatures with more than two arms.
I don't think you can get TWF and MWF.

Fax Celestis
2007-01-30, 10:06 PM
So ignore the TWF. You're still ridiculous.

EDIT: Right, I think too fast. Let me revise:

Multiattack, Improved Multiattack, MWF, IMWF, GMWF, Snap Kick, Flurry of Blows:

+14/+14/+14/+9/+4/-1/+14/+9/+4/+14/+9/+4/+14/+9/+4/+14/+14/+14/+14/+14.

Deathcow
2007-01-30, 10:19 PM
...and then take some improved grappling stuff and go crazy grappling the living hell out of people. Take Improved Natural Attack for more damage, too.

TSGames
2007-01-30, 10:24 PM
...and then take some improved grappling stuff and go crazy grappling the living hell out of people. Take Improved Natural Attack for more damage, too.
hm...


Kinky.

Woot Spitum
2007-01-30, 10:26 PM
Don't Tri-Keen also start with several monstrous humanoid hit dice, raising their ECL even more?

NEO|Phyte
2007-01-30, 10:27 PM
The racial HD is how it gets the BAB for 4 attacks.

Douglas
2007-01-30, 10:35 PM
Except that racial HD count towards when you stop getting BAB and start Epic Attack Bonus, so you have BAB +2 (racial) + 13 (Monk 18) = 15, not enough for four iterative attacks. To get 16 you'll need two more levels of full BAB progression pre-epic.

NEO|Phyte
2007-01-30, 10:38 PM
Except that racial HD count towards when you stop getting BAB and start Epic Attack Bonus, so you have BAB +2 (racial) + 13 (Monk 18) = 15, not enough for four iterative attacks. To get 16 you'll need two more levels of full BAB progression pre-epic.
Or you assume LA buyoff (which he did in his calculations) and the extra level of monk pushes his BAB to +16, getting him 4 attacks.

Douglas
2007-01-30, 10:40 PM
That only works for the level adjustment, not racial hit dice, and I was already counting the LA as bought off.

KeithF
2007-01-30, 10:41 PM
Um, I thought monks using flurry of blows could never get off-hand attacks, because they're already using their whole body? Certainly the wording on pages 40-41 of the PHB suggests that to me, particularly the example of the monk using two ends of a quarterstaff.

Certainly a Thri-Kreen with the Multiweapon Fighting feats can get a lot of attacks (as can any many-armed creature), which would be very effective, but they can't combine that with a flurry of blows. I think the most you could get before epic levels and without Haste would be twelve attacks.

Douglas
2007-01-30, 10:44 PM
The RAW is not entirely clear on the matter, so we have to go with the official interpretation in the FAQ which explicitly states that Flurry and TWF can be combined.

Ramza00
2007-01-30, 11:28 PM
I know you are taking alot of feats already, but have you considered adding the Illithid Grapple to the mix? (Part of the Illithid Heritage feat chain). Each time you take it, it gives you a tentacle attack to the max of 4 tentacles. Getting all 4 tentacles requires 6 feats due to prerequisites.

Now combine these 4 tentacles, with the 4 arms, and the gloves of man from savage species...........I ain't going to finish this thought.

On another note, a thri keen with 4 tentacles coming out of its mouth is a face that only a mother can love.

Imagine this
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/cpsi_gallery/96402.jpg
Mixed with this
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/cpsi_gallery/96356.jpg

Indon
2007-01-30, 11:34 PM
Um, I thought monks using flurry of blows could never get off-hand attacks, because they're already using their whole body? Certainly the wording on pages 40-41 of the PHB suggests that to me, particularly the example of the monk using two ends of a quarterstaff.


I'd actually asked about just that a little while ago, and I do believe the consensus on the forums was that you can do it, but you need a weapon(s, in this case) other than your unarmed attack for the off-hand attacks.

Am I right?

Also, did _I_ inspire this monstrousity somehow?

JaronK
2007-01-31, 12:11 AM
No, you're not right. A monk can flurry with most of his body and two weapon fight with his knee if he wants.

And no, this is not game breaking. You're still a monk with low BAB and low damage, so the first thing with DR15/cold iron that gets in your path leaves you crying. A Charger could do as much damage in a single hit as you'd get if you managed to hit with all your attacks.

JaronK

purple gelatinous cube o' Doom
2007-01-31, 12:15 AM
my question to you is where did you only get +1 LA adjustment for thri-kreens? Is it from the Psionics Handbook. In the MMII, a non-psionic thri-kreen is a +3 LA and a psionic one is a +5 LA.

Edit. Oh, and I see flaw in your character. Multiweapon fighting replaces two weapon fighting. To my knowledge, you can't have both MWF and TWF. And I see after further inspection this has already been mentioned.

Solo
2007-01-31, 12:17 AM
On another note, a thri keen with 4 tentacles coming out of its mouth is a face that only a hentai chick can love.
There. Fixed it for you.

Thomas
2007-01-31, 12:21 AM
No, the FAQ says (and the forums, as far as I've noticed, agree) that you can TWF with nothing but unarmed attacks. There's no reason why you couldn't. You can TWF with unarmed as your off-hand attack and a weapon as your primary attack, and there's no sound logic by which you couldn't switch another unarmed attack for the primary attack.

Anyway, everyone should know the Perfect Multiweapon Fighting thri-kreen. The thing is, it's not that impressive. Attack bonus and real damage output probably won't match a properly optimized THW build, and casters will continue to laugh at you. If you could get full sneak attack or something, you'd actually be getting close to breaking the game. (Once you actually get up to epic levels and PMWF, it's irrelevant, because Epic Spellcasting wins the game.)

Ramza00
2007-01-31, 12:43 AM
How about Scout 3/Monk 1/Ranger 14 with Swift Hunter, Ascetic Hunter, and Improved Skirmish. Gives you some skirmish damage on this build, and when combine with lion charge. Note Ranger should give you Multiweapon Fighting instead of Two Weapon Fighting as part of the ranger combat mastery.

And for the above posters, the EXH version of thri keen is 2 racial monstrous humanoid hd and 2 la, he is buying back the LA.

Douglas
2007-01-31, 12:45 AM
my question to you is where did you only get +1 LA adjustment for thri-kreens? Is it from the Psionics Handbook. In the MMII, a non-psionic thri-kreen is a +3 LA and a psionic one is a +5 LA.
I'm guessing the numbers you're referencing are actually a thri-kreen's starting ECL, which includes racial hit dice. Non-psionic thri-kreen have two racial HD and one level adjustment.

PhoeKun
2007-01-31, 12:49 AM
Except that racial HD count towards when you stop getting BAB and start Epic Attack Bonus, so you have BAB +2 (racial) + 13 (Monk 18) = 15, not enough for four iterative attacks. To get 16 you'll need two more levels of full BAB progression pre-epic.

Actually, it's the other way around. You don't use the Epic Progression until your class levels hit 20.

Ramza00
2007-01-31, 01:02 AM
I am assuming the main sticky for the epic level boards is correct especially since its the first thing in the sticky


When is my character considered epic?
Okay, this is a complicated question. Being epic comes in stages, like so:

When your ECL reaches 21, you begin using epic experience tables and epic wealth guidelines.
When you have 21 total HD, you may begin gaining epic feats.
When you have 21 character levels, you begin using the epic base attack bonus and save progressions. Note that racial HD are not included in this calculation--they do not use epic attack and save progressions.
When you have 21 levels in a particular class, you begin using the appropriate epic class progression.
When you have 20 total HD, including 10 levels in a prestige class, you may begin gaining epic levels in that prestige class.When the Epic Level Handbook makes statements like "[class] does not [class ability] after 20th level," they are referring to your 20th class level, not your 20th character level. Specific examples of this are spells per day for spellcasters, and unarmed damage for monks.

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=430042

Talanic
2007-01-31, 01:09 AM
I was sure that Douglas was right...you hit epic progression when your character's ECL is 21+. Two racial hit die, no LA, means 18 class levels pre-epic. Interpreting it otherwise just leads to rampant cheese. Hit dice are just like class levels, but without class abilities.

There's no way that a level 20 juvenile dragon wizard with 13d12 + 20d4 hp etc etc etc who's bought off a +4 LA (Can't remember if +4 LA is buyoffable) is not epic. He'd also have a +23 BAB and 12 points of natural armor.

PhoeKun
2007-01-31, 01:13 AM
The dragon in your example is indeed Epic (see the handy chart Ramza posted), but he does not use Epic save and attack progressions.

Those are two entirely different kettles of fish. If racial hit dice counted towards Epic progressions, then Great Wyrm Dragons would be stuck with a BAB of 20, and that... would be much less scary. Or even good.

edit: besides which, that particular dragon (in addition to making a very poor class choice) is somewhere between ECL 33 and 39. Is a +23 BAB really cheesy?

Zincorium
2007-01-31, 07:28 AM
my question to you is where did you only get +1 LA adjustment for thri-kreens? Is it from the Psionics Handbook.

No, it's not. The non-psionic thri-keen presented in Savage Species, and possibly one of the monstrous manuals, is 2 monstrous humanoid HD (which, by HD standards, aren't too shabby) and only a +1 LA. Using buyoff rules, that can go away pretty quickly in the build.

Yuki Akuma
2007-01-31, 07:39 AM
You gain epic BaB progression (and saves progression) when your HD reaches 21, unless all of your HD are racial, in which case you keep progressing normally.

Yes, it's stupid, but that's how it works...

Arbitrarity
2007-01-31, 11:52 AM
It says when you have 21 character levels, and note that racial HD don't count... that sounds pretty explicit.

On the other hand, the only time I can see this build being useful is with something like a colossal monk :D

(2d10, 4d8, 6d8, 12d6, 18d6?)

elliott20
2007-01-31, 11:58 AM
Well, at level 20, you got yourself a +12 to hit, which is not bad, but it's not really that great either. I don't really see this as game breaking since you'll still have to come up with ways to get around DR, high ACs, and all that stuff.

Of course, this is where equipment comes in.

If you can get somebody to continuously cast "greater magic fang" on you, and get custom items that allows you to bypass the DR, you'd be golden I think.

Fax Celestis
2007-01-31, 11:59 AM
Psionic Thri-Kreen get Metaphysical Claw as a psi-like ability, so that's taken care of. As for DR, wear gauntlets.

Ramza00
2007-01-31, 12:06 PM
Psionic Thri-Kreen get Metaphysical Claw as a psi-like ability, so that's taken care of. As for DR, wear gauntlets.

Can't flurry with gauntlets, but you can always use your non hands as your flurry.

4 attacks from primary hand
3 attacks from secondary hand
3 attacks from third hand
3 attacks from fourth head.
2 headbutts or kicks or something (note these won't penetrate DR besides lawful, and adamintine)

You gain 3 more attacks when you take pwf.

Fax Celestis
2007-01-31, 12:08 PM
Can't flurry with gauntlets, but you can always use your non hands as your flurry.

4 attacks from primary hand
3 attacks from secondary hand
3 attacks from third hand
3 attacks from fourth head.
2 headbutts or kicks or something (note these won't penetrate DR besides lawful, and adamintine)

You gain 3 more attacks when you take pwf.

You also forgot the bite attack and Snap Kick.

Ramza00
2007-01-31, 12:15 PM
You also forgot the bite attack and Snap Kick.
I forgot the bite, but the Snap Kick isn't worth it with this many attacks doing -2 to all attacks and a spending a feat isn't worth one more attack.

Sense Weakness feat from the Draconomicon is another good way to penetrate Damage Reduction. Requires Combat Expertise and Weapon Focus, you can ignore 5 dr/hardness regardless of alingment, weapon enchantment, or material of your weapon.

Dareon
2007-01-31, 02:21 PM
I don't suppose there's room for Warblade levels or some Martial Study with the Jump-DC-equal-to-enemy's-AC Tiger Claw maneuvers. Assuming the non-psionic Kreen still gets its +30 Jump bonus.

Built that a month or so ago, then looked at it and thought "Okay, it can hit, now what?" Monk unarmed damage may be my answer.

Also, slightly off-topic, but I'm assuming most people would have no problem with alchemical silver or cold iron gauntlets/clawsheathes for Kreen, but how about mandible tips for its bite attack? Probably disable its poison, but would they be feasible and/or mechanically advantageous?

Arceliar
2007-01-31, 10:57 PM
What about throwing in levels of Dervish?* Getting double a full attack while moving is quite devastating with the right builds, this one could potentially be reworked to do just that.

*Edit: forgot the ? mark after Dervish...

NEO|Phyte
2007-01-31, 10:59 PM
What about throwing in levels of Dervish?* Getting double a full attack while moving is quite devastating with the right builds, this one could potentially be reworked to do just that.
The problem with Dervish in a build like this is that unless you get everything you absolutely can to increase your base speed, you will run out of movement before you run out of attacks, so the Dervish Dance actually reduces your attacks per round.

Although I guess this is a monk build, so it should be fine...

Kaerou
2007-02-01, 10:11 AM
Get a 20th level Kobold Sorc to cast Mighty Wallop, Greater (RotD) On you.

Now Your thri-Kreen Monk is broken.

Thomas
2007-02-01, 11:10 AM
Thri-Kreen PMWF Dervish would have 32 attacks, and need a speed of 160 ft. ...

silvermesh
2007-02-01, 11:20 AM
congratulations, you now are as effective as ten low level fighters with a shared hit point pool. unfortunately a single 20th level fighter with a 2Hander will outclass you in every way imaginable. well, maybe except for your ability to leap over tall buildings in a single bound, you ugly bug, you.

Ramza00
2007-02-01, 11:56 AM
Get a 20th level Kobold Sorc to cast Mighty Wallop, Greater (RotD) On you.

Now Your thri-Kreen Monk is broken.
Any wizard or sorcerer can cast that spell it isn't any way connected to Kobolds or Dragons yet its in the Races of the Dragon book. I am just pointing this out for the other people.

Armads
2007-02-13, 01:21 AM
get some magic item that grants you time stands still, and then take 10 levels in dervish, wield vorpal scimitars, and enjoy!

60 attacks per round, with vorpal weaponry.

silentknight
2007-02-13, 07:42 PM
I happen to be looking into creating a thri-kreen dervish right now. I have a question.

It makes sense that, because multiweapon fighting replaces two-weapon fighting you could gain Improved and Greater versions of MWF, but are those actually feats? And what book are they in? And where can I find Perfect Multiweapon Fighting?

Thanks!

AtomicKitKat
2007-02-14, 12:41 AM
Some of the later Monster Manuals, Savage Species, Epic Level Handbook.

Skyserpent
2007-02-14, 12:51 AM
Those are a lot of hits... like an ungodly amount of damage... but you STILL won't do crap to a Pit Fiend.

Penguinizer
2007-02-14, 12:54 AM
fouth head?

Quietus
2007-02-14, 01:08 AM
I noticed that too; We know what he meant.

AnnShadow
2007-10-03, 02:43 PM
The Thri-Kreen gets +2Wis (good for Monk AC) +2 Str. and +4Dex.

Some have suggested that the 4 attacks would not get past a DR15.

Do not forget you can get 4 magic weapons, GMWF
use Weapon finesse with your 24 dex (with a 28 point buy this is pretty easy at level 1 monk; start with 16 [+4] makes 20 Dex.)

I do not really see how having 4 weapons is not as good as having one or two? Infact you COULD use 2 Two-handed weapons if you so choose (course you then cannot use weapon finesse).

But for a monk. The great AC due to Natural Armor, Wis, Dex, and other items such as bracers, rings, ect. together with the ability to use 4 weapons with no penalty GMWF sounds pretty good to me.

Thinker
2007-10-03, 02:56 PM
http://www.versello.com/funnay/resurrection.jpg

Tor the Fallen
2007-10-03, 03:05 PM
Anyone mention Girallon's blessing for an additional 2 arms?

Person_Man
2007-10-03, 03:25 PM
You might also want to work in a level of Warlock and a level of Demonbinder from Drow of the Underdark. If your Cha is high enough, you can take a demon form that grants you two extra arms, that explicitly lets you use Multiweapon Fighting.

As Tor mentioned, Girillion's Blessing (Wand with UMD?) will give you two more arms.

If you can work in 9 levels of Fang of Lolth (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20011207) (which requires 10 Ranks of UMD), you can gain 2 more arms.

Maybe a Thri-Kreen Factotum 8/Warlock 1/Demonbinder 1/Fang of Lolth 10.
That'll give you eight arms and who knows how many attacks, plus an extra standard action once per encounter from your Factotum ability. Maybe use hand crossbows, full round action attack with multiweapon fighting, and then use your free extra standard action to use manyshot?

Also, I think enough levels of Totemist also gives you an extra set of arms, though I'm very sketchy on Incarnum.

Indon
2007-10-03, 04:16 PM
Also, I think enough levels of Totemist also gives you an extra set of arms, though I'm very sketchy on Incarnum.

I'm pretty sure it's a chakra binding that has the same effect as Girallion's Blessing.

Leon
2007-10-03, 07:31 PM
I do not really see how having 4 weapons is not as good as having one or two? Infact you COULD use 2 Two-handed weapons if you so choose (course you then cannot use weapon finesse).
.

Ive considered that as a PC in Darksun - Weapon choice was going to be a Gythka and a Glaive or a Longspear and a Spear