Good undead?

[ramrod]

Hi guys,


Designing a campaign (very excited at the developing story, but don't want to give anything away as I know that members in my group read on here often!) this is my first attempt at a big campaign, written by myself. I'm confident that it will be exciting and intriguing but lack experience in populating the crypt underneath the citadel that the first adventure takes place in.

I want the crypt to be filled with undead that initially attack the 'invading' PC party, until they encounter the leader. The dead are the disturbed bodies/spirits of a clerical order that the pcs are questing for, so eventually I want them to actually fight together when getting out of the crypt.

Can I get away with using virtually any undead for this situation? I'm currently unsure of the level that the pcs would be at this stage and I will need incorporeal and corporeal undead for exit of the crypt for tactical reasons. They don't need to have minds of their own, but some semblance of the clerical orders pride would be a bonus (will just get that in with some role playing)

[bekeleven]

You're looking for Deathless, "positive undead." They were introduced in the book of exalted deeds, and also included in Eberron.

[Fortinbro]

I would avoid using undead that feed on the living since it can be difficult to justify them being non-evil. I would recommend using ghosts for incorporeal or mummies for corporeal. If you go with mummies, maybe play up them being honor-bound protectors.

I ran this exact scenario in my last campaign. There was an undead apocalypse and the party encountered a good aligned order of mummies who worshiped the Pharonic Pantheon. They attacked the mummies on sight but later learned their error. Eventually they ended up teaming with the high priestess who became in an-party NPC when the cleric player quit.

[Tevesh]

Toss Tomb Warden PrC from Libris Mortis for more fun flavour (and a powerful combatant).

[Ravens_cry]

Quite a few undead have the potential to be good. Mummies and ghosts in Core are two examples I can think of. Deathless are just . . . no, just no. I see nothing inherently good about positive energy, so the whole switch is just silly in my eyes. Actually, I find the whole idea at least as creepy than undead. Stuffing a corpse so full of elan vital it assumes a gross parody of life, this is 'good' how exactly?

[hamishspence]

I'm told Mummies were "positive energy undead" in 2nd ed.

[Ravens_cry]

I'm told Mummies were "positive energy undead" in 2nd ed.

It does say that they "tap into the energy of the Positive Material plane" though it also explicitly describes them as "undead".

[Seto]

Deathless are just . . . no, just no. I see nothing inherently good about positive energy, so the whole switch is just silly in my eyes. Actually, I find the whole idea at least as creepy than undead. Stuffing a corpse so full of elan vital it assumes a gross parody of life, this is 'good' how exactly?

According to BoED, Deathless are not that, since they're :
- often incorporeal
- souls more or less stripped of their bodies (they represent the continuation of a soul's stay on the Material Plane, since the Positive Energy Plane is "the birthplace of all souls")
- animated by a "righteous purpose" that won't last long and they'll die once they fulfill it.

So basically, they're not matter animated by energy, as undead are, but a soul that doesn't die : matter or non-matter animated by energy in the same way that the living are - only, purer. Ghosts with sometimes the rest of a body, as I see it. That does raise questions and points out inconsistencies with the base ghost, though.

[Ravens_cry]

Rather pointless then, since Ghosts and Revenant are already undead that (I believe) can be of any alignment that have a driving need to fulfil a purpose.

[Seto]

Yep, there's the inconsistency I was aiming at ^^". I suppose the difference here is that you live in a purest form of spirituality, whatever that means... But yeah, sounds like they just wanted a fancy "always good" ghost to put in their alignment-related book. Actually, what you thought the Deathless were would be, if indeed creepier, a lot more interesting.

[Ravens_cry]

Yep, there's the inconsistency I was aiming at ^^". I suppose the difference here is that you live in a purest form of spirituality, whatever that means... But yeah, sounds like they just wanted a fancy "always good" ghost to put in their alignment-related book. Actually, what you thought the Deathless were would be, if indeed creepier, a lot more interesting.
Hmm, as homebrew fluff, I'd say they sometimes happen by accident when someone tries to cast powerful healing (but not resurrection) spells on a corpse, but they can also happen on purpose.

[The Viscount]

The crypt thing from Fiend Folio is an undead used to guard tombs, and all it really does is defend them from invaders.

[Cirrylius]

Rather pointless then, since Ghosts and Revenant are already undead that (I believe) can be of any alignment that have a driving need to fulfil a purpose.

I always imagined a ghost as a soul becoming disincarnate that due to an unfulfilled purpose immediately tries to incarnate itself using ethereal protoplasm. The result is... imperfect, which is why ghosts are so disconnected from current events; the soul isn't truly "living" in its new medium, so it continues as a more or less completely static creature.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Necropolitans, from Libris Mortis. The process has no effect on alignment.

[Slipperychicken]

Basically any intelligent creature can be good-aligned, even if it runs off negative energy. Even many creatures listed as "always evil" can, by the rules, have some exceptions.

[ramrod]

I think what I will go with is just turning level appropriate undead creatures into slightly nicer versions, by description and special ability into what I need. The story goes a little along the lines that it is a natural cavern, and the dead of the clerical order are entombed there as the cave geology is crystalline and the crystals shine like starlight and so is considered holy ground, consecrated by the order. The new inhabitants of the keep/monastery have also been using it to inter their dead an so have disturbed the consecrated ground, causing the dead to rise as they their sanctity is desecrated.

Don't want to give much more away, but I figure that I can use any undead for this. I will just need to pick out a level 8ish 'leader' that will essentially negotiate with them if the pcs will listen to his cause.

[Ravens_cry]

I always imagined a ghost as a soul becoming disincarnate that due to an unfulfilled purpose immediately tries to incarnate itself using ethereal protoplasm. The result is... imperfect, which is why ghosts are so disconnected from current events; the soul isn't truly "living" in its new medium, so it continues as a more or less completely static creature.
I think you mean ectoplasm. Protoplasm is the generic name for the stuff of life, what we thought cells were made of before we could look really closely and realized each cell was basically a city of incredibly complicated molecular machinary.

[etrpgb]

Necropolitan from Libris Mortis; the undead for everyone...

[NotScaryBats]

Libris Mortis has a Lich Variant called "Good Lich" that might serve your purpose for the leader of this group.

"Good Lich
Though conceptually an oxymoron, the idea of a good-aligned creature who chooses undead immortality over a normal lifespan is a compelling one. Such creatures typically dedicate themselves to some noble cause—protection of a sacred location, the tending of knowledge or learning, and so forth.

Special Attacks: Turn Undead (Su): A good lich can turn or destroy undead as a cleric of a level equal to its HD. (If the good lich already has the ability to turn undead, treat it as if its effective cleric level for turning was two higher than normal.)

Special Qualities: Turning Immunity (Ex): Good liches cannot be turned or destroyed by good clerics, nor by neutral clerics who turn undead. When neutral or evil clerics attempt to rebuke or command a good lich, the lich is turned or destroyed instead.

A good lich retains the normal lich’s fear aura, though it can drop or raise the aura as a free action.

CR Adjustment: +1."

[Ravens_cry]

Apparently they are largely the purview of poncy elves, under the rule of "If *we* do it, it's OK," though that bit of fluff is, of course, mutable.

[NotScaryBats]

I believe you are referring to Baelnorn? The "Good Lich" presented in Libris Mortis is not explicitly that, but could be, if you wanted them to be.

[Cirrylius]

I think you mean ectoplasm.
Oops. Actually I meant protomatter; ectoplasm is Astral in nature.

[Clistenes]

Crypt Things (Fiend Folio) are Neutral undead that protect tombs and cementeries.

Gravecrawlers (Monster Manual II) are Neutral too, but they don't get along with other undead.

Necropolitans (Libris Mortis), Ghosts (Monster Manual I) and Mumias (Ghostwalk) can be of any alignment.

Baelnorns (Monsters of Faerun) are good-aligned elven liches.

The Crypt Warden and Sacred Watcher (Book of Exalted Deeds, both of them) are Deathless, not Undead, but they are almost the same. Both are good.

the Eberron Campaign Setting has other kinds of Deathless, like the Undying Soldier, the Undying Councilor and the Ascendant Councilor.

[137beth]

Quite a few undead have the potential to be good. Mummies and ghosts in Core are two examples I can think of. Deathless are just . . . no, just no. I see nothing inherently good about positive energy, so the whole switch is just silly in my eyes. Actually, I find the whole idea at least as creepy than undead. Stuffing a corpse so full of elan vital it assumes a gross parody of life, this is 'good' how exactly?

Eberron specified that Deathless aren't necessarily more likely to be good than undead, for exactly the reason you just gave (positive energy isn't good and negative energy isn't evil). However, the Undying Court (deathless elven rulers) believe that negative energy somehow harms the world in some unexplained way. Keith Baker said on his blog this isn't necessarily true, though:smallsmile:

[Curmudgeon]

Of course, if you stick with Undead (rather than Deathless) type, regardless of alignment they're always going to show up as Evil when someone (like, say, nearly every Paladin in the game) uses Detect Evil.

Necropolitan may be a problem. I played a Cleric in a game where the Wizard "went off on a personal quest" (to grab the Necropolitan template, as it turned out). While the Wizard was gone, my Cleric took a level of Radiant Servant and picked up a Phylactery of Undead Turning. I'd also gotten a CHA booster from the treasure at the end of the last encounter. Thus fortified, I figured I could finally get some use out of the turn undead ability I'd only been using for Travel Devotion up to that point.

Oops. The Wizard came back (without telling us he'd become Undead), and I did a Greater Turning in our first encounter. As the nearest Undead he was the first one affected, and losing a level from the Ritual of Crucimigration made him more vulnerable. With a Greater Turning he was destroyed when the turning table said he'd be turned; I didn't need to have 2x his HD as I normally would have. The Wizard's player thought he'd avoid contention by not telling our mostly Good party he was becoming Undead. He basically outsmarted himself in an attempt at gaining a bunch of power-ups. :smallamused:

[Ravens_cry]

Oops. Actually I meant protomatter; ectoplasm is Astral in nature.
I guess that means ghosts powered the Genesis device (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Protomatter) then.
:smalltongue:

[babus]

So here's an odd bit of magical theory for you.

Given that negative energy isn't evil, and that mindless undead are mindless, the fact that neutral evil undead are created by the Animate Dead spell suggests to me that they radiate Evil entirely because the spell that created them is Evil. Which is to say, whichever Wizard penned it decided it would be more efficient to have it draw a bit of power from the Plane of Evil, tainting the spell. As such, I offer that someone could find a version of the spell that, while perhaps less effective, animates the dead without drawing on the Plane of Evil and creates Neutral Undead.

In fact, there's a Metamagic feat named Fell Animate that raises a zombie from whatever you kill with the spell it's attached to that does not add the Evil Descriptor to the spell, and as such might raise a Neutral zombie if you buy my interpretation.

Heck, if you can afford it, you could slap the Consecrate Spell or Purify Spell metamagic on them to create Neutral Good Mindless Undead. Dragon 357 also has the Aligned Spellcaster ACF that would let you add Lawful as a descriptor to the spell, which would allow for Lawful Good Zombies.

After that, Awaken Undead (Evil Descriptor Spell, but it doesn't specify it adjusts alignment of the target, so a Paladin Couldn't use it more than once, but others might) will get them smart.

Enjoy your Zombie Paladin Order.

[Ravens_cry]

That'd be a houserule, but it's not a bad idea, except there is nothing about Create Undead that makes it an especially evil spell. I personally prefer to rule that mindless undead have the alignment of the one controlling them. A sword can be a tool for justice and protection or for atrocities and oppression depending on the wielder, and so too with mindless undead by my ruling. Uncontrolled mindless undead are simply neutral.

Eberron specified that Deathless aren't necessarily more likely to be good than undead, for exactly the reason you just gave (positive energy isn't good and negative energy isn't evil). However, the Undying Court (deathless elven rulers) believe that negative energy somehow harms the world in some unexplained way. Keith Baker said on his blog this isn't necessarily true, though:smallsmile:
Well, Eberron is practically made for playing havoc with typical D&D expectations.

[babus]

That'd be a houserule, but it's not a bad idea, except there is nothing about Create Undead that makes it an especially evil spell.I prefer to think of it as a horrible abomination lying between a houserule and creative rule interpretation, though I agree with you on Create Undead. I just take the RAW at face value in terms of the labeler. If there's nothing especially evil about the spell, then either it summons a bit of PURE UNIMAAAAGINABLE EEEEEVIL!! into the world when you use it, perhaps as a catalyst of sorts to make the entirely neutral negative energy do its job a bit better, or a kitten explodes somewhere in the world every time you cast it. It just occurs to me that maybe neither of those things might be entirely necessary to animate the dead or create undead, which would imply the citizens of the game world are either only aware of the evil method or are too afraid to create/find more neutral versions of the infamous spells. As such, I like to hide from my fear of house rules by claiming

I personally prefer to rule that mindless undead have the alignment of the one controlling them. A sword can be a tool for justice and protection or for atrocities and oppression depending on the wielder, and so too with mindless undead by my ruling. Uncontrolled mindless undead are simply neutral.That sounds like what it should have been in Core. We all know why Mindless Undead are Evil in 3rd Edition, though.

[Ravens_cry]

That sounds like what it should have been in Core. We all know why Mindless Undead are Evil in 3rd Edition, though.
Thank you, but we do? I can understand 1st and 2nd editon. The first because in many cultures, disturbing the dead was a grave crime, pun so intended, and the second because sanitizing it of anything potentially offensive was a big part of the design, at least initially. That being said, I think they slipped something past the radar with Asmodeus. Before, he was the Lord of the Nine Hells, but now he was the Master of Baator.:smalltongue:
Intentional or slip-up? You decide! But why is it in 3rd edition, legacy reasons aside I assume.

[babus]

Thank you, but we do? I can understand 1st and 2nd editon. The first because in many cultures, disturbing the dead was a grave crime, pun so intended, and the second because sanitizing it of anything potentially offensive was a big part of the design, at least initially. That being said, I think they slipped something past the radar with Asmodeus. Before, he was the Lord of the Nine Hells, but now he was the Master of Baator.:smalltongue:
Intentional or slip-up? You decide! But why is it in 3rd edition, legacy reasons aside I assume.Smite Evil. As an attack of pure Good, it would have been strange to specify that it was especially effective against Evil Creatures and Mindless Undead, so they simplified it by making a creature incapable of choice Neutral Evil. Mindless Undead were Neutral even in 2nd, where the Negative Energy plane actually was pure evil.

[Ravens_cry]

Smite Evil. As an attack of pure Good, it would have been strange to specify that it was especially effective against Evil Creatures and Mindless Undead, so they simplified it by making a creature incapable of choice Neutral Evil. Mindless Undead were Neutral even in 2nd, where the Negative Energy plane actually was pure evil.
Ah, I see. Double checking my AD&D 1st edition Monster Manual concurs with that. On the other hand, 3.X did make some changes that make sense, like ghosts that are of any alignment, as opposed to Lawful Evil like they were in 1st edition.

[QuackParker]

I see no reason an undead as a character might have good intentions or conflicted feelings, but, that said, its alignment should stay evil for the purposes of any effects that target alignment.