Feat Point System for Pathfinder

[Tanuki Tales]

So, sonofzeal was kind enough (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=245177) to do something of a fix of SKR infamous feat point system. I'm in the midst of doing a revision of my house rule collection (as my signature mentions) and found that the feat point system is something I definitely want to include and thus need to update for Pathfinder.


Feat Points
Each time a character gains a feat, she instead gets 10 feat points which she can use to purchase feats. Characters must still meet all prerequisites as normal. Unspent feat points carry over from level to level, but a character can only purchase feats with feat points at the times in her adventuring career when she could normally select a feat, even if she has extra feat points left over (for example, a character with 6 feat points left over from character level 3 could not spend them until level 6--the next level at which she gains a feat) .


A class that grants bonus feats grants bonus feat points of the appropriate type. For example, the fighter class gives 10 fighter feat points at levels 1, 2, 4, 6, and so on. Typed feat points can only be used on feats of the appropriate type, so a fighter can only use his fighter feat points to purchase fighter feats. However, any normal (typeless) feat points can be combined with typed feat points to purchase typed feats. You can still only use these feat points to purchase feats of the type you could normally purchase at that level.
Example:Tegdar is a human ftr1 with 3 typeless feat points left over from 1st level. He reaches 2nd level and gains 10 fighter feat points. Tegdar decides to use 7 of those points to purchase Combat Reflexes (cost: 7 points) , leaving him with 3 fighter feat points and 3 normal feat points. He decides to combine these feat points and purchase Far Shot (cost: 6points) . He now is completely out of feat points. He could not have used his 3 normal feat points to purchase feats other than fighter feats because he can only select those feats at level 1, 3, 6, and so on.

Feat Point Debt
At 1st level, and 1st level only, a character is allowed to overspend her feat points by selecting one or more feats with a cost of 11 or more feat points. The extra cost of these feats is carried over until the next time she gains feat points of the appropriate type. She can go into "feat point debt" up to 3 points. Feat point debt is tracked separately by type of feat point (typeless, fighter, wizard, etc.) .The feat point debt system allows characters using it to maintain parity with characters who don't (characters using the standard rules could sometimes end up with several strong feats at 1st level, penalizing the feat-point character) .

Example: Vidda, a halflingrog1, has 10 feat points. She selects Two-Weapon Fighting (11 points) and goes into feat point debt by for point. The next time she gains typeless feat points (3rd level) she only gains 9instead of 10 because of the 1-point debt. She gains the normal 10 feat points at levels 6, 9, and so on.
Example:Tegdar, a human ftr1, has 20 typeless feat points (10 from being1st-level, 10 from being human) and 10 fighter feat points. He chooses Point Blank Shot (9 points) and Two-Weapon Fighting with his typless feat points, which brings his typeless feat points to 0 (if there were a 12-point feat he qualified for, he could have selected that instead of Two-Weapon fighting, which would have put him in debt for 1feat point) . He purchases Rapid Shot (11 points) with his fighter feat points, which puts him in debt for one fighter feat point. At 2ndlevel, he gains 9 fighter feat points instead of 10 because of the1-point debt. He gains the normal 10 fighter feat points at fighter level 4, 6, and so on. His typeless feat points (at level 3, 6, and soon) are unaffected (though if he had chosen a 12-point feat instead of Two-Weapon Fighting he would have paid that typeless feat point debt at level 3 when he gained more feat points) .


Virtual Feats
Virtual feats, such as those conditional feats granted by the monk and ranger classes, do not grant feat points, cost feat points, or cause or negate feat point debt.


How we're doing this
We're going to start the list off alphabetically with the General Feats and move onwards letter by letter until we've covered all the feats so far printed.
Each list of feats will be initially placed into one of six tiers, as explained below. A tier represents a general, overall ranking of how useful a specific feat is and represents the floor and ceiling costs that exist for a feat without moving it to a different tier.
Once feats are placed into a tier, they will be further examined and given exact, rather than relative, feat costs to represent their overall worth.

Tiers


Tier 6 represents feats that are either incredibly niche in their function, more fluff than actual substance or are actual detriments to the characters who take them.
Cost Floor: 1 point
Cost Ceiling: 2 points

Altitude Affinity
Ammo Drop
Archon Style
Armor Proficiency, Heavy
Armor Proficiency, Light
Armor Proficiency, Medium
Blood Ties
Burning Spell
Caustic Slur
Conviction
Corsair
Critical Conduit
Desert Dweller
Dog Killer, Horse Hunter
Draconic Discipline
Drugged Healing
Druidic Decoder
Eschew Materials
Exotic Weapon Proficiency
Experienced Vagabond
Expert Driver
Eyes of Judgement
Fast Crawl
Feral Combat Training
Flagbearer
Fury's Fall
Groundling
Galley Slave
Hymn Singer
Imperial Conscript
Improved Day Job
Intimidating Prowess
Juggle Load
Jumper
Leaf Singer
Letter Fury
Life-Dominant Soul
Lithe Attacker [Note: This feat is almost never able to be taken by PCs. If taken by animal companions, a GM is advised to not rank this feat above Tier 5.]
Master of Falconry
Master of Wonders
Master of Your Kind [Note: This feat is not able to be taken by PCs. If taken by a Familiar, a GM is advised to not rank this feat above Tier 5.]
Narrow Frame [Note: This feat is almost never able to be taken by PCs. If taken by animal companions, a GM is advised to not rank this feat above Tier 5.]
Ostentatious Display
Pass for Human
Potent Holy Symbol
Precocious Youth
Quick Preparation
Razortusk
Reject Poison
Renown [Note: This feat is only for Pathfinder Society and as such should not be allowed in normal games.]
Revered Guidance
Rugged Northerner
Sandwalker
Schooled Reserve
Skilled Driver
Stable Gallop
Storm-Lashed
Superintendant
Supernal Feast
Sure-Footed
Sure Grasp
Sword Oath
Terrifying Mask
Torch Handling
Tribe Mentality
Urban Forager
Valiant Steed
Vandal (Goblin)
Variant Prayer-Scroll
Wall of Flesh (Teamwork)



Tier 5 represents feats that are functional as they're written, but are rarely, if ever, optimal character choices outside of certain context.
Cost Floor: 3 points
Cost Ceiling: 4 points

Acrobatic
Advanced Defensive Combat Training
Agile Maneuvers
Alignment Channel
Amateur Gunslinger
Ancestral Scorn
Animal Affinity
Ankle Biter
Antagonize
Arc Slinger
Arcane Armor Training
Arcane Insight
Arcane Strike
Arcane Trap Suppressor
Arcane Vendetta
Archon Diversion
Aspect of the Beast
Athletic
Aversion Tolerance
Babble-Peddler
Back to Back
Banishing Critical
Banner of Doom
Bashing Finish[/b
[b]Battle Singer
Bear Hug
Beartrap Bite
Bend with the Wind
Betraying Blow
Binding Throw
Black Marketeer
Blade Binder
Blazing Aura
Bleeding Attack
Bleeding Critical
Blighted Critical (Critical)
Blinding Critical
Blinding Flash
Blinding Light
Blistering Feint
Bloodletting
Bloody Assault
Bloody Vengeance
Blowout Shot Deed (Grit)
Bludgeoner
Boar Ferocity
Boar Style
Body Control
Bodyguard
Body Mastery
Body Shield
Bolster Jinx
Bonebreaker
Bounding Hammer
Breadth of Experience
Break Guard
Brutal Grappler
Bull Rush Strike
Bullseye Shot
Bullying Blow
Burn! Burn! Burn!
Catch Off-guard
Cautious Fighter
Chain-flail Master
Channeling Scourge
Channel Smite
Charge of the Righteous
Charge Through
Charging Hurler
Chokehold
Claw Pounce
Cleave
Cleaving Finish
Close Call
Close-Quarters Thrower
Cloud Step
Cloven Helm
Coaxing Spell
Cockatrike Strike
Cold Celerity
Combat Distraction
Combat Expertise
Combat Style Master
Combat Medic
Companion Figurine
Coordinated Maneuvers
Cornugon Shield
Cornugon Smash
Cornugon Stun
Cornugon Trip
Cosmopolitan
Covering Defense
Create Reliquary Arms and Shields
Crippling Critical
Critical Focus
Crossbow Mastery
Crusader's Fist - Why?
Crusdaer's Flurry
Crushing Blow
Cursed Item Detection
Cut Your Losses
Dampen Presence
Dark Adept
Darting Viper
Deadly Dealer
Deadly Stroke
Deafening Critical
Death or Glory
Deathless Initiate
Deathless Master
Deathless Zealot
Deceitful
Deep Drinker
Deflect Arrows
Deft Hands
Deft Shootist Deed
Demoralizing Lash
Dented Helm
Deny Death
Dervish Dance
Desperate Battler
Desperate Swing
Destroyer's Blessing
Devastating Strike
Diehard
Dilettante
Dimensional Assault
Dimension Dervish
Dimensional Maneuvers
Dimensional Savant
Dire Bat Shape
Disarming Strike
Disengaging Feint
Disengaging Flourish
Disengaging Shot
Disorienting Blow
Dispelling Critical (Critical)
Dispelling Fist
Disposable Weapon
Disrupting Shot
Distance Thrower
Divine Denouncer
Double Bane
Double Slice
Draconic Defender
Drag Down
Dragonbane Aura
Dragonheart
Drugged Euphoria
Drunken Brawler
Dueling Mastery
Duelist
Echoing Spell
Efreeti Stance
Efreeti Style
Efreeti Touch
Eldritch Claws
Elemental Fist
Elephant Stomp
Elusive Redirection
Elven Battle Training
Endurance
Enforcer
Enhanced Ki Throw
Ensemble (Teamwork)
Equipment Trick
Exploit Lore
Extra Evolution
Extra Feature
Extra Gnome Magic
Extra Ki
False Casting
False Opening
Famine Tolerance
Far Shot
Fast Drinker
Fast Healer
Favored Judgement
Fearsome Barricade
Feinting Flurry
Felling Escape
Felling Smash
Ferocious Tenacity
Fiendish Darkness
Fiendish Facade
Fiendish Heritage
Fiendish Resilience
Final Embrace
Final Embrace Master
Fight On
Firebrand
Fire God's Blessing
Fire Hand
Fleet
Focused Shot
Fortified Armor Training
Fortunate Manager
Fortunate Ruler
Fox Shape
Fury of the Tainted
Fury's Snare
Giant Killer
Gloom Strike
Glorious Heat [Note: If the unofficial errata is not used, this feat is Tier 1.]
Gnome Weapon Focus
Gnome Trickster
Goblin Cleaver
Goblin Gunslinger
Golden Legion's Stayed Blade
Gorefriend
Gorgon's Fist
Gory Finish
Great Cleave
Great Hatred
Greater Channel Smite
Greater Grapple
Greater Mercy
Great Fortitude
Grudge Fighter
Gunsmithing
Gliding Steps
Halfling Slinger
Hamatula Grasp
Hamatula Strike
Hamatulatsu Strike
Hammer the Gap
Hard-headed
Harmonic Sage
Harmonic Spell
Harrowed
Haunted Gnome
Haunted Gnome Assault
Heighten Spell
Hellcat Pounce
Helpless Prisoner
Heroic Defiance
Heroic Recovery
Hex Strike
Hold the Blade
Horse Master
Impact Critical Shot
Impaling Critical
Imperial Squire
Improved Back to Back
Improved Dirty Trick
Improved Disarm
Improved Drag
Improved Feinting Flurry
Improved Fiendish Darkness
Improved Fury of the Tainted
Improved Grapple
Improved Impaling Critical
Improved Ki Throw
Improved Low Blow
Improved Stalwart
Improved Stonecunning
Improved Surprise Follow-Through
Improved Two-Weapon Feint
Improvised Weapon Mastery
Inner Light
Intimidating Gaze
Invoke Primal Instinct
Ironguts
Ironhide
Iron Will
Island Blood
Jawbreaker
Ki Diversity
Ki Stand
Ki Throw
Knockout Artist
Kobold Ambusher
Kobold Sniper
Landing Roll
Large Target
Lead from the Back
Leaping Shot Deed
Learn Ranger Trap
Legacy of Heroes
Let Them Come
Life Lure
Lightning Reflexes
Light Step
Lookout
Low Profile
Mark of Evil
Master Alchemist
Meditation Master
Meditative Concentration
Merciless Rush
Monstrous Mask
Mystic Stride
Named Bullet (Grit)
Nature Soul
Neckbreaker
Nimble Moves [Note: GMs are advised to refund the cost of this feat and its subsequent feat, as it is invalidated by the third part in the chain.]
No Name (Grit)
Oracular Intuition
Persuasive
Phalanx Fighter (Teamwork)
Planar Hunter
Prodigy
Pure Faith
Radiant Charge
Raging Brutality
Raging Hurler
Raging Throw
Reward of Grace
Ricochet Shot Deed (Grit)
Ricochet Splash Weapon
Righteous Healing
Roof Runner
Run
Scholar
Sea Legs
Secret Signs
Secret Stash Deed
Seeds of Doubt
Selective Spell
Self-Sufficient
Shake It Off
Shapeshifter Foil
Shared Insight
Sharp Senses
Sickening Critical
Signature Deed
Sin Seer
Sly Draw
Smell Fear
Sneaking Precision
Sneaky Vagabond
Sniper Shot
Sociable
Spear Dancer
Spider Step
Splintering Weapon
Squash Flat
Staggering Critical
Stalwart
Stealthy
Steel Soul
Stoic
Stone Faced
Stone Read
Stone Singer
Strong Comeback
Summoner's Call
Sunlit Strike
Survivor
Swift Kitsune Shapechanger (Kitsune)
Team Pickpocket
Thoughtful Discernment
Tiring Critical
Totem Spirit
Tribal Scars
Ultimate Resolve
Uncanny Alertness
Undermining Exploit
Unsanctioned Detection
Vermin Empathy
Vigilant Eidolon
Voice of the Sibyl
Walker Among Evil
War Singer
Warrior Priest
Well-Prepared
Whip-Shot Deed (Grit)
Widen Spell





Tier 4 represents feats that are well written and decent character build options. They are even chosen most of the time for most builds, but are ultimately less powerful and/or less useful than actual class features. Feats that grant multiple uses of lesser class features also fall under this tier.
Cost Floor: 5 points
Cost Ceiling: 9 points

Acrobatic Steps
Adept Champion
Adept Channel
Advanced Ranger Trap
Allied Spellcaster
Amplified Rage
Animal Ally
Arcane School Spirit
Arcane Shield
Arcane Talent
Atheist Abjurations
Betrayer
Blighted Critical Mastery
Blind-Fight
Blundering Defense
Boar Shred
Bolstered Resistance
Broken Wing Gambit
Butterfly Sting (Critical)
Careful Speaker
Cartwheel Dodge
Childlike
Cleave Through
Clustered Shots
Combat Patrol
Combat Reflexes
Conceal Scent
Concussive Spell
Coordinated Defense
Create Sanguine Elixir
Critical Mastery
Critical Versatility
Dazing Assault
Dazzling Display
Deadly Aim
Death from Above
Deceptive Exchange
Deepsight
Defending Eidolon
Demon Hunter
Die for Your Master
Discordant Voice
Disorienting Maneuver
Disruptive Spell
Divination Guide
Divine Defiance
Dodge
Dragoncrafting
Drugged Rejuvenation
Duck and Cover (Teamwork)
Eagle Eyes
Eldritch Eye
Eldritch Heritage
Elemental Focus
Elemental Spell
Elven Accuracy
Empower Spell
Escape Route (Teamwork)
Exhausting Critical
Extra Bane
Extra Cantrips or Orisons
Extra Grit
Extra Ranger Trap
Extra Rogue Talent
Fast Change
Fast Empathy
Favored Defense
Fearless Aura
Fearsome Finish
Fey Foundling
Field Repair
Final Embrace Horror
Fire Magic
Flaring Spell
Focused Discipline
Focused Eidolon
Following Step
Free Spirit
Friendly Switch
Friend to Animals
Furious Finish
Gang Up
Godless Healing
Greater Blighted Critical
Greater Dirty Trick
Greater Drag
Greater Elemental Focus
Greater Feint
Greater Wild Empathy
Gunslinger
Haunted Gnome Shroud
Improved Channel
Improved Counterspell
Improved Critical
Improved Feint
Improved Great Fortitude
Improved Initiative
Improved Iron Will
Improved Lightning Reflexes
In Harm's Way
Inner Flame
Intensify Spell
Intimidating Bane
Jackal Heritage
Jaguar Pounce
Jinxed Spell
Keen Scent
Lightning Stance
Lingering Performance
Lucky Halfling
Lucky Strike
Lunge
Magical Aptitude
Master Craftsmen
Master of the Ledger
Maximize Spell
Maximized Spellstrike
Menacing Bane
Merciful Bane
Minotaur's Charge
Moonlight Summons
Natural Ruler
Necromatic Affinity
Nimble Natural Summons
Peshish Magic
Powerful Shape
Practiced Tactician
Protector's Strike
Quick Channel
Remote Bomb
Resilient Eidolon
Reward of Life
Rhetorical Flourish
Sense Link
Shadow Grasp
Shapeshifting Hunter
Shatter Resolve
Shielded Caster
Sickening Spell
Silent Spell
Siphon Poison
Skill Focus
Slayer's Knack
Small But Deadly
Sorcerous Bloodstrike
Spell Bane
Spontaneous Metafocus
Starlight Summons
Stealth Synergy
Still Spell
Stone Sense
Sunlight Summons
Theurgy
Threatening Illusion
Thundering Spell
Ultimate Mercy
Vampiric Companion
Versatile Jinxer
Wand Dancer
Wild Speech
Witch Knife
Word of Healing



Tier 3 represents feats that could easily be seen as actual class features on a well written base class or prestige class, though aren't likely to cause problems in game balance by themselves. Feats that grant multiple uses of a greater class feature also fall under this tier.
Cost Floor: 10 points
Cost Ceiling: 14 points

Abundant Revelations
Accursed Critical (Critical)
Accursed Hex
Additional Traits
Ancient Draconic
Arcane Blast
Arcane Jinxer
Area Jinx
Bat Shape [Note: This feat is probably tier 2 before level 5.]
Bestow Hope
Bewildering Koan
Bloodmarked Flight
Blood of Heroes
Boon Companion
Branded Retribution
Celestial Obedience
Center of Power
Channeled Revival
Channeled Shield Wall
Consecrate Spell
Contingent Channeling
Cypher Magic
Dastardly Finish
Deadly Finish
Demonic Obedience
Destroy Identity
Detect Expertise
Disruptive Recall
Distant Jinx
Divine Deception
Divine Interference
Ectoplasmic Spell
Effortless Trickery
Elemental Channel
Enlarge Spell
Esoteric Advantage
Evolved Familiar
Expert Trainer
Extend Spell
Extended Bane
Extra Arcana
Extra Arcane Pool
Extra Bombs [Note: If no useful bomb Discoveries have been taken, this feat is tier 5.]
Extra Channel
Extra Discovery
Extra Hex
Extra Item Slot
Extra Lay on Hands
Extra Mercy
Extra Performance
Extra Rage
Extra Rage Power
Extra Revelation
Fascination Jinx
Flanking Foil
Focused Disbelief
Focused Spell
Furious Focus
Go Unnoticed
Grant Initiative
Greater Eldritch Heritage
Greater Spell Focus
Greater Spell Penetration
Green Guardian
Guided Hand
Hellcast Stealth
Hero's Fortune
Imperial Knight
Implant Bomb
Improved Eldritch Heritage
Improved Learn Ranger Trap
Improved Monster Lore
Improved Share Spells
Indomitable Mount
Insightful Gaze
Inspirational Commander
Instant Judgement
Jinx Alchemy
Judgement Surge
Lingering Spell
Luck of Heroes
Malicious Eye
Merciful Spell
Noble Scion
Ordered Mind
Painful Anchor
Pantheistic Blessing
Parry Spell
Piercing Spell
Planar Wild Shape
Practiced Leadership
Prophetic Visionary
Quick Wild Shape
Raging Deathblow
Raging Vitality
Shade of the Woodlands
Shadow Gambit
Shaping Focus
Shared Judgement
Skeleton Summoner
Sluggish Jinx
Spell Bluff
Spell Focus
Spell Penetration
Spellsong
Split Hex
Split Major Hex
Thanatopic Spell
Threnodic Spell
Turn Undead
Umbral Spell
Uncanny Activation






Tier 2 represents feats that are starting to get too good for characters to have. They cause a lot of headaches at the game table when it comes to running a balanced game, but they don't usually break a campaign by themselves.
Cost Floor: 15 points
Cost Ceiling: 19 points

Augment Summoning
Bloodmage Initiate
Bouncing Spell
Combat Casting
Command Undead
Cooperative Crafting
Cypher Script
Defensive Combat Training
Dimensional Agility [Note: This is tier 5 for monks.]
Dispel Synergy
Diviner’s Delving
Expanded Arcana
Extra Summons
Familiar Focus
Familiar Spell
Focused Overseer
Fortune Teller
Greater Spell Specialization
Improved Familiar
Improved Fiendish Sorcery
Mage's Tattoo
Major Spell Expertise
Peacemaker
Planar Preservationist
Reach Spell
Rime Spell
Sacred Summons
Shadow Dodge
Spell Mastery
Steadfast Mind
Summon Good Monster
Summon Neutral Monster
Superior Summoning
Tapestry Traveler
Tenacious Transmutation
Tenebrous Spell
Toppling Spell
Uncanny Concentration
Undead Master



Tier 1 represents feats that are simply too good and probably would end up on most ban lists from sensible GMs who aren't running a "High Op" game. There is almost no way to reconcile these feats, as they're written, with game balance and they most certainly can smash a campaign by their lonesome.
Cost Floor: 20 points
Cost Ceiling: None.

Destructive Dispel
Energy Attunement
Focused Worker
Leadership
Minor Spell Expertise
Natural Spell
Planned Spontaneity
Persistent Spell
Preferred Spell
Quicken Spell
Spell Hex
Spell Perfection
Squire [Note: If a GM does not allow this feat to upgrade to Leadership, it is Tier 3 instead.]
Torchbearer [Note: If a GM does not allow this feat to upgrade to Leadership, it is Tier 3 instead.]


Current feats to Tier

Combat feats (Ms through Ps)

Link to all the Pathfinder feats for those who aren't familiar and want to contribute. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats)


3/2/2014 - Tier ranking system, as suggested by Realms of Chaos, implemented.

3/7/2014 - Bs for General Feats added.

3/10/2014 - As for General Feats moved to the Tier list, Cs for General Feats added to the To Do list.

3/12/2014 - Bs for General Feats moved to the Tier list, Ds for General Feats added to the To Do list.

3/16/2014 - Cs and Ds for General Feats moved to the Tier list, Es and Fs for General Feats added to the To Do list.

3/19/2014 - Es and Fs for General Feats moved to the Tier list, Gs through Ls for General Feats added to the To Do list.

4/06/2014 - Gs through Ls for General Feats added to the Tier list, Ms through Ps for General Feats added to the To Do list.
- Metamagic feats added to Tier list.

4/09/2014 - Qs and Rs for General Feats added to the To Do list.
S's for General Feats added to the To Do list.

4/12/2014 - Ms through Rs for General Feats added to the Tier list.

4/19/2014 - S's for General Feats added to the Tier list. Ts through Ws for General Feats added to the To Do list.

4/21/2014 - As and Bs for Combat feats added to the To Do list.

4/22/2014 - Cs for Combat feats added to the To Do list.

4/25/2014 - Remaining General feats added to the Tier list.
- Ds for Combat Feats added.

5/12/2014 - Combat feats As through Gs added to Tier list. Combat feats Hs through Ls added to the To Do list.

6/10/2014 - Combat feats Hs through Ls added to Tier list. Combat feats Ms through Ps added to the To Do list.

[Tanuki Tales]

Reserved Post A

[Tanuki Tales]

Reserved Post B

[Tanuki Tales]

Reserved Post C

[Tanuki Tales]

Reserved Post D

[Tanuki Tales]

Alright, here's my crack at putting modified costs to the above feats:

Abundant Revelations - 10 points. [ While revelations are not as useful as actual spells, some of them have quite a bit of utility or oomph. The fact they're also on a spellcasting class makes me feel like requiring a full feat slot for this one is worth it.]
Accursed Critical (Critical) - 12 points. [ It requires a critical hit to function, but the fact that this can be used in conjunction with ranged spells as well as weaponry, makes me feel like it's a bit too good. I could see lowering the cost down to 10, but not by much more.]
Accursed Hex - 10 points. [You're basically forcing a save re-roll with this feat. I can't remember any amazing Hexes off-hand, so I keep it at 10 points.]
Acrobatic - 3 points. [The skill boosting feats are so pitiful, that they're more fluff or niche use than actual mechanically viable options.]
Acrobatic Steps - 5 points. Freedom of Movement come online. This price may be re-adjusted when we get to its prerequisites.]
Additional Traits - 10 points. [Some traits are brokenly good. The reason I rate this as a 10 and not higher is because of the list limitations.]
Adept Champion - 5 points. [It's a decent feat, but it can only be taken by one of the most restricted classes to play without house rules, it only applies to a very limited pool of targets and eats up a swift action.]
Adept Channel - 7 points. [I'm sure there are some good uses for Channel Energy, but channeling at a level penalty and only twice a day doesn't make this worth a whole feat to me.]
Advanced Ranger Trap - 5 points. [It's a handful of +1 bumps. Ranger traps aren't spells.]
Alertness - 3 points. [See Acrobatics.]
Alignment Channel - 4 points. [This feat is so incredibly niche.]
Allied Spellcaster - 6 points. [This feat is pretty good for a party with multiple spellcasters. But it has enough hoops for pulling it off that it's not a pretty good feat by itself (it's worthless by itself) and thus my lower price on it.]
Altitude Affinity - 2 points. [This feat is so incredibly niche and crappy, that I'm actually going below the suggested floor.]
Amplified Rage - 6 points. [This feat is like Allied Spellcaster: Pretty good if you can pull it off, otherwise useless.]
Ancestral Scorn - 4 points. [This feat is really niche.]
Ancient Draconic - 12 points. [This feat is really good and I can't think of a reason a spellcaster wouldn't take it, unless they're going for a Silent Spell build.]
Animal Affinity - 4 points. [This one is ranked higher if only because Handle Animal is a good skill.]
Animal Ally - 7 points. [The feat grants you a companion, letting you some minor action economy advantage and then stacks with class features you later gain that have an animal companion/mount. By itself it would be a 10 pointer, but since you need to get that crappy Nature Soul feat, it's discounted.]
Antagonize - 3 points. [What this feat gives should be part of those skills.]
Arcane Blast - 15 points. [Untyped supernatural and spontaneous blasting? This feat invalidates most of the Evocation school.]
Arcane Insight - 3 points. [This is just a bad niche feat. Why would you take this over Dodge in most cases?]
Arcane Jinxer - 12 points. [You need to be a Halfling, but Halfling Jinx already works on anything not immune to Luck effects. Throw in a 24 hour duration and this feat is useful for those lower level spell slots you don't know what to do with.]
Arcane School Spirit - 5 points. [Full round action and an opposed skill check for what is identical to a +2 to the DC of one school of magic and only for the next spell you cast from that school? Pretty lackluster.]
Arcane Shield - 5 points. [This is just a bad feat. You have better things to do with your feats, your immediate actions and your spell slots.]
Arcane Talent - 5 points. [This is an alright feat. Some 0th level spells still have utility at every level after all.]
Arcane Trap Suppressor - 3 points. [What this feat does should be part of what those spells do.]
Arcane Vendetta - 5 points. [This feat would be much better if it also applied to spell-like abilities.]
Area Jinx - 12 points. [This is a pretty good debuff feat when combined Arcane Jinxer. The price will end up being adjusted when Widen Spell is priced.]
Aspect of the Beast - 3 points. [This feat is just meh.]
Atheist Abjurations - 4 points. [This feat could see use in a divine magic heavy game, but is otherwise meh. Its price may change depending on how Divine Defiance is priced.]
Athletic - 3 points. [See Acrobatics.]
Augment Summoning - 15 points. [Summoning is king.]
Aversion Tolerance - 3 points. [So, this feat exists to make Vampire, as a template suck less? Mmkay.]

[Ziegander]

This is an interesting thread and a good idea. Between this and race points you're not far off from just spending "character points" to develop your character as you gain levels.

[Tanuki Tales]

This is an interesting thread and a good idea. Between this and race points you're not far off from just spending "character points" to develop your character as you gain levels.

Then all we need would be some kind of "Class point" system to completely convert Pathfinder into a point buy system that people are always saying is more superior than to class based systems. :smalltongue:

Well, that and a more comprehensive and not crappy race building point system.

[Jormengand]

Then all we need would be some kind of "Class point" system to completely convert Pathfinder into a point buy system that people are always saying is more superior than to class based systems.

It's been done, though it massively underestimated the value of spells.

[Tanuki Tales]

It's been done, though it massively underestimated the value of spells.

Isn't that usually the failure with these point based systems? :smallwink:

So...anyone going to comment with my price run-down on what we have so far?

[Realms of Chaos]

It's a bit hard to comment on costs when we don't know where averages should realistically be. :smallconfused:

I mean, it's easy to label something like leadership as 20 or something horrible like Death or Glory at 3. That type of stuff is easy as pie.

Could you give a good example of what would cost 10, though? 99% of all skill feats are probably below average, basic combat feats like dodge or weapon focus are likewise too weak, and I can see others making the argument that item creation feats and metamagic feats should always cost more than 10 due to the amount of flexibility they introduce.

The only things I can really think of as being really 10-worthy are the small circle of "essential combat feats" (improved initiative, two-weapon fighting, combat reflexes, power attack, etc.)

Also, instead of starting right out of the gates with precise costs for feats along an incredibly wide array, it may make more sense to first divide feats into 4 or 5 tears with set costs before adjusting costs slightly to address the best and worst feats in each category (thus filling out the whole range). It is much easier for me to say that acrobatics and lightning reflexes are both tier 4 feats while power attack is a tier 3 feet than to assess specific costs for each one, for example.

Also, a thought to preserve for the future: Might we want to place a discount on feats as they gain more prerequisites? Someone who gets all of the prerequisites for whirlwind attack, for example, shouldn't have to pay too many more points to finish the feat tree (and a discount may help make some feats seem more plausible again).

[Tanuki Tales]

It's a bit hard to comment on costs when we don't know where averages should realistically be. :smallconfused:

Sonofzeal basically told me to just go with my gut. I guess I would consider a feat that feels like a decent class feature would be worth 10 points to me.


I mean, it's easy to label something like leadership as 20 or something horrible like Death or Glory at 3. That type of stuff is easy as pie.

Leadership is definitely getting a 20 from me when we get there. :smalltongue:


Could you give a good example of what would cost 10, though? 99% of all skill feats are probably below average, basic combat feats like dodge or weapon focus are likewise too weak, and I can see others making the argument that item creation feats and metamagic feats should always cost more than 10 due to the amount of flexibility they introduce.

The only things I can really think of as being really 10-worthy are the small circle of "essential combat feats" (improved initiative, two-weapon fighting, combat reflexes, power attack, etc.)

Of what I posted so far, I said I felt like Animal Ally would be a 10 pointer, if it didn't have Nature Soul as a prerequisite. Anything that would basically be a decent class feature is a 10 pointer to me.



Also, instead of starting right out of the gates with precise costs for feats along an incredibly wide array, it may make more sense to first divide feats into 4 or 5 tears with set costs before adjusting costs slightly to address the best and worst feats in each category (thus filling out the whole range). It is much easier for me to say that acrobatics and lightning reflexes are both tier 4 feats while power attack is a tier 3 feet than to assess specific costs for each one, for example.

Can you elaborate more on what you're trying to say here in regards to costing feats? Like a tier would have a minimum price floor...or..?


Also, a thought to preserve for the future: Might we want to place a discount on feats as they gain more prerequisites? Someone who gets all of the prerequisites for whirlwind attack, for example, shouldn't have to pay too many more points to finish the feat tree (and a discount may help make some feats seem more plausible again).

When I'm costing them, I do try to keep prerequisites in mind.

[TuggyNE]

It's a bit hard to comment on costs when we don't know where averages should realistically be. :smallconfused:

I mean, it's easy to label something like leadership as 20 or something horrible like Death or Glory at 3. That type of stuff is easy as pie.

Could you give a good example of what would cost 10, though?

As long as feats are priced fairly in relation to each other, they can be adjusted later to balance out the average to be 10 or whatever else; i.e., everything recalibrated by the same factor in order to get some particular benchmarks to be 10.

[Realms of Chaos]

Can you elaborate more on what you're trying to say here in regards to costing feats? Like a tier would have a minimum price floor...or..?

What I'm saying it that instead of trying to discern the difference between 12-point feats and 13-point feats from the very start, let's have a few stable increments we can sort feats into with more confidence. For example

Tear 6 (feats that are purely flavor or that don't do the job they were made for): EX: Death or Glory, Blessed by Tem-Et-Nu (if grandfathered in): Cost 1 (if allowed at all)

Tier 5 (feats that are functional but are nearly never optimal): EX: Dodge, Weapon Focus, Acrobatics, Toughness, Lightning Reflexes: Cost 3

Tier 4 (feats that are decent and are actually taken but that remain less powerful than class features. Includes feats that grant extra uses of less powerful class features): EX Power Attack, Improved Initiative, Eschew Materials, Extra Hex: Cost 5

Tier 3 (feats that seem about on the level of class features that don't cause much in the way of problems. Includes extra uses of more powerful class features): Ex Standstill, Animal Ally, Craft Wondrous Item, Command Undead: Cost 10

Tier 2 (feats that cause problems in campaigns but that cannot destroy the campaign on their own): Ex Natural Spell, Quicken Spell, Profits of Kalistrade: Cost 15

Tier 1 (feats that can lead to incredible abuse and break a character entirely all on their own): Ex Leadership, Divine Metamagic (if grandfathered in): Cost 20 (if allowed at all).

After we have set everything into different general categories like this, the particulars of costs can be addressed and tweaked if you want the full range of costs from 3 to 20 to be used (A weak tier 3 feat may be repriced at 8 while a strong tier 4 feat may be repriced at 7, for example).

[Tanuki Tales]

Well, instead of tiering all the feats, why don't I just add that as pricing guidelines to the first post?

Though do we really want to drop the price floor to 1 point? I mean, are they that bad that a level 1 character should start with 10 of them?

[Realms of Chaos]

Well, instead of tiering all the feats, why don't I just add that as pricing guidelines to the first post?

I personally think that tiering them makes it easier and would garner a lot more consensus as it's easier to place an item into one of 6 categories than one of 17 categories.

To illustrate what I mean, imagine improved initiative. I'd imagine that feat costing around 5 points. But maybe power attack is already 5 points. Is standstill worse than power attack? If it is, I may want to label II as only being 4 points. On the other hand, improved initiative might be considered better as everyone could benefit. Does it cost around 6 points, then? Maybe someone says 7?

If you want to get a precise cost from 3 to 20 for every single feat as step 1 in your plan, that is an intricate negotiation that posters would have to go through for a good deal of feats as this is a very ambiguous task in spite of the guidelines. Frankly, it sounds a tad nightmarish.

If you put in only 5-6 tiers, meanwhile, there is almost NO ambiguity. I could probably sort the feats in the OP into the tiers I listed with ease and minimal dissent (who wouldn't say that improved initiative isn't tier 4, for example). The process is made easier for everyone.

Of course, I'm not saying that no feats can cost anything other than 3, 5, 10, 15, or 20 points. What I'm saying is that filling the entire range would probably become a whole lot easier if you split things into tiers first.

After we know all tier 3 feats, for example, we could roughly rank them to get feats costing between 8 and 12 points. It would be handling a smaller number of feats within a smaller range and so I'd think that it would be easier to tackle in that way.

In short, all I'm saying is that giving each feat a number from 3 to 20 as step 1 seems a bit... worrisome.

[Tanuki Tales]

I guess I just see what you're saying as semantics, even if what you're suggesting is more organized than the current set up. With your suggested tiers, you're still attaching a price to every feat and you're still comparing them, worth wise, with every other feat. The feats would just be grouped between "tiers" instead of being listed alphabetically.

I do agree with the concept of organizing them into tiers.


Edit:

Well, then here's my tier ranking for the feats I already gave a crack at costing:


Altitude Affinity



Acrobatic
Alignment Channel
Ancestral Scorn
Animal Affinity
Antagonize
Arcane Insight
Arcane Trap Suppressor
Aspect of the Beast
Atheist Abjurations
Athletic
Aversion Tolerance


Acrobatic Steps
Adept Champion
Adept Channel
Advanced Ranger Trap
Allied Spellcaster
Amplified Rage
Animal Ally
Arcane School Spirit
Arcane Shield
Arcane Talent
Arcane Vendetta


Abundant Revelations
Accursed Critical (Critical)
Accursed Hex
Additional Traits
Ancient Draconic
Arcane Jinxer
Area Jinx


Arcane Blast
Augment Summoning

[JHShadon]

I don't have enough Pathfinder experience to help with this project so I'm just going to say I think this is a cool idea and that I look forward to the end result.

[Hanuman]

This could be a great system, feats seem a bit too linearly modular to me.

Feats tend to need a limitation on gaining a bunch of power at once, some feats need to be less efficient to buy than others due to their nature (such as feats that grant Natural Armor vs. feats that grant Hitpoints) and a point system would retain the gain limitations while offering more balance into other things.

I'd like to see this becoming somewhat like Shadowrun 4.0's KARMA System where players don't have levels to keep track of, all player balancepoints are based on cost.

I find Shadowrun to have a very steep DM learning curve but a fairly forgiving player learning curve, the best thing is that Shadowrun encourages drop-in play and flaky players kill a lot of DnD groups.

[Tanuki Tales]

This could be a great system, feats seem a bit too linearly modular to me.

Feats tend to need a limitation on gaining a bunch of power at once, some feats need to be less efficient to buy than others due to their nature (such as feats that grant Natural Armor vs. feats that grant Hitpoints) and a point system would retain the gain limitations while offering more balance into other things.

I'd like to see this becoming somewhat like Shadowrun 4.0's KARMA System where players don't have levels to keep track of, all player balancepoints are based on cost.

I find Shadowrun to have a very steep DM learning curve but a fairly forgiving player learning curve, the best thing is that Shadowrun encourages drop-in play and flaky players kill a lot of DnD groups.

Hm, something to look into.


Edit:


I don't have enough Pathfinder experience to help with this project so I'm just going to say I think this is a cool idea and that I look forward to the end result.

If you have experience with 3.5, you have more than enough for Pathfinder. :smalltongue:

[Realms of Chaos]

before this gets any further, I just found this (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/misc/featpointsystem.html) as a possible example of what not to do.

BEHOLD THE SYSTEM WHERE LIGHTNING REFLEXES IS DEEMED STRONGER THAN LEADERSHIP!!!

I don't generally use all caps but I don't think that statement can properly be expressed in any other way.

[Tanuki Tales]

before this gets any further, I just found this (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/misc/featpointsystem.html) as a possible example of what not to do.

BEHOLD THE SYSTEM WHERE LIGHTNING REFLEXES IS DEEMED STRONGER THAN LEADERSHIP!!!

I don't generally use all caps but I don't think that statement can properly be expressed in any other way.

Realms....this is based on that. We're using his exact mechanics. :smalltongue:

[SamBurke]

before this gets any further, I just found this (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/misc/featpointsystem.html) as a possible example of what not to do.

BEHOLD THE SYSTEM WHERE LIGHTNING REFLEXES IS DEEMED STRONGER THAN LEADERSHIP!!!

I don't generally use all caps but I don't think that statement can properly be expressed in any other way.


Realms....this is based on that. We're using his exact mechanics. :smalltongue:
But you're being smarter than SKR about the pricing. Clear distinction, Tanuki. :smalltongue:

[Tanuki Tales]

But you're being smarter than SKR about the pricing. Clear distinction, Tanuki. :smalltongue:

Speaking of:

Are there any issues with the way I tiered and priced the feats listed so far? Can we throw them up into the first post as our prices and move on to the Bs?

[SamBurke]

Speaking of:

Are there any issues with the way I tiered and priced the feats listed so far? Can we throw them up into the first post as our prices and move on to the Bs?

Only quibble is accursed Critical. I'd lower the price of everything that only works 10% of the time (or less).

[Tanuki Tales]

Only quibble is accursed Critical. I'd lower the price of everything that only works 10% of the time (or less).

An immediate action spell that can proc off ranged touch attack spells though?

Like I said, I can lower it to 10 points, but it is a decent feat for a ray or touch attack specialized build.

[SamBurke]

An immediate action spell that can proc off ranged touch attack spells though?

Like I said, I can lower it to 10 points, but it is a decent feat for a ray or touch attack specialized build.

True, but I'd consider it niche even for that build.

[Tanuki Tales]

True, but I'd consider it niche even for that build.

Is there a way to get crit fishing with a ray/touch attack build in Pathfinder? If there isn't an easy way, that'd be grounds for lowering the cost.

[SamBurke]

Is there a way to get crit fishing with a ray/touch attack build in Pathfinder? If there isn't an easy way, that'd be grounds for lowering the cost.

I don't know of one... there's improved critical, but that's a simple double, so not that threatening.

[Tanuki Tales]

I don't know of one... there's improved critical, but that's a simple double, so not that threatening.

Then a price reduction to 10 points feels better?

[SamBurke]

Then a price reduction to 10 points feels better?

Hmm... Honestly, given the pre-requisites (having Bestow Curse, having it prepared, wanting to use it...), it's an interesting feat. It's *fantastic* if that's your build, must-have even... but if you don't, there's not ever a reason to take it. Dunno.

[Tanuki Tales]

Hmm... Honestly, given the pre-requisites (having Bestow Curse, having it prepared, wanting to use it...), it's an interesting feat. It's *fantastic* if that's your build, must-have even... but if you don't, there's not ever a reason to take it. Dunno.

Bestow Curse is a go-to debuff spell though.

[SamBurke]

Bestow Curse is a go-to debuff spell though.

This is true... Hm. Still, I feel like the fact that there are *four* pre-requisites to use the feat (Be able to cast, then have Bestow Curse, as well as use spells that can make critical hits, and then GET a critical hit) should mitigate a lot of its value.

[Tanuki Tales]

This is true... Hm. Still, I feel like the fact that there are *four* pre-requisites to use the feat (Be able to cast, then have Bestow Curse, as well as use spells that can make critical hits, and then GET a critical hit) should mitigate a lot of its value.

Being a spellcaster is never a mitigating factor for price. If anything, that should be an increase for the cost of the feat, since spells are broken as is without anything that either makes them more powerful or gives a caster more options (unless said options are actually worse than what a spellcaster could do without the feat).

What mitigates it is how many attack roll spells there are in Pathfinder, which I'm not aware of off the top of my head.

[Tanuki Tales]

Alright, Bs have been added to our "To do" list. Also, if no other issues concerning my pricing and tiering pop up before tomorrow, I'll be removing them from the "To do" list and add them to our working price guide.

[Kamai]

I guess I just see what you're saying as semantics, even if what you're suggesting is more organized than the current set up. With your suggested tiers, you're still attaching a price to every feat and you're still comparing them, worth wise, with every other feat. The feats would just be grouped between "tiers" instead of being listed alphabetically.

I do agree with the concept of organizing them into tiers.


Edit:

Well, then here's my tier ranking for the feats I already gave a crack at costing:


Altitude Affinity



Acrobatic
Alignment Channel
Ancestral Scorn
Animal Affinity
Antagonize
Arcane Insight
Arcane Trap Suppressor
Aspect of the Beast
Atheist Abjurations
Athletic
Aversion Tolerance


Acrobatic Steps
Adept Champion
Adept Channel
Advanced Ranger Trap
Allied Spellcaster
Amplified Rage
Animal Ally
Arcane School Spirit
Arcane Shield
Arcane Talent
Arcane Vendetta


Abundant Revelations
Accursed Critical (Critical)
Accursed Hex
Additional Traits
Ancient Draconic
Arcane Jinxer
Area Jinx


Arcane Blast
Augment Summoning

Ok, taking a quick look through, Arcane Blast is probably too high. You're trading out a strong class feature (a spell slot) to get something much weaker out of it (a weak blast that doesn't even scale as fast as the base damage equations. It should probably be T3 or 4 (neat class feature, has it's niches, probably not used very often, but can be the right tool).


If we assume that the feat functions as it should (follows the same stacking rules as other animal companions, doesn't negate itself), it's a T3 feat because it is essentially a Ranger/Animal Cleric class feature. If the animal companion that it gets negates the feat (due to the requirement), this is actually T6, if it deserves a tier at all for not functioning as a feat.


I feel like that Arcane Vendetta should not be tiered ahead of Atheist Abjurations. Dispel checks are still really hard to get bonuses to outside of high-op, and this is a relatively unrestricted one (divine spells). The feat that it requires is at least ok, and would be almost a solid choice. I'd personally flip them. Weapon Specialization is not that good of a feat, and that's what Arcane Vendetta basically is.

[Tanuki Tales]

Ok, taking a quick look through, Arcane Blast is probably too high. You're trading out a strong class feature (a spell slot) to get something much weaker out of it (a weak blast that doesn't even scale as fast as the base damage equations. It should probably be T3 or 4 (neat class feature, has it's niches, probably not used very often, but can be the right tool).

Arcane Blast completely invalidates most of the Evocation school. You're trading a single spell slot, which you have many of, to deal typeless damage. It's a ray, so it's only single target, but it's a very powerful feat.



If we assume that the feat functions as it should (follows the same stacking rules as other animal companions, doesn't negate itself), it's a T3 feat because it is essentially a Ranger/Animal Cleric class feature. If the animal companion that it gets negates the feat (due to the requirement), this is actually T6, if it deserves a tier at all for not functioning as a feat.


Animal Ally has a prerequisite feat that's Tier 5, which is why it's Tier 4. It stacks with either an animal companion or a mount if gained later, but the fact you can't grab it by itself is why it's not Tier 3.


I feel like that Arcane Vendetta should not be tiered ahead of Atheist Abjurations. Dispel checks are still really hard to get bonuses to outside of high-op, and this is a relatively unrestricted one (divine spells). The feat that it requires is at least ok, and would be almost a solid choice. I'd personally flip them. Weapon Specialization is not that good of a feat, and that's what Arcane Vendetta basically is.

Arcane Vendetta is significantly better than Weapon Specialization when facing arcane spellcasters. It applies to all weapon attacks, requires a single skill rank to take and requires a simple skill check to activate. I still feel like Atheist Abjurations is a niche feat, but if dispel check bumps are that rare, I can see an argument for upping it a tier. I don't know if Arcane Vendetta deserves to be downgraded; there aren't limited tier slots of anything.

[Kamai]

Arcane Blast completely invalidates most of the Evocation school. You're trading a single spell slot, which you have many of, to deal typeless damage. It's a ray, so it's only single target, but it's a very powerful feat.

Yes, it's typeless damage. Let's put it in perspective with actual evocations, though. When you first get this feat, it might not seem like a bad trade to give up a 1st level slot for 3d6 typeless. However, a 1st level slot is also worth 5d4+5 force (pretty rarely resisted) or 5d4 fire as an AoE.

On the other side of it, the Evocation school is pretty weak already. If you're trading in an Evocation spell slot, you're pretty desperate because you're usually trading in more targets, more damage, and more range all at the same time. If you're trading in another school's spells, you've just misprepared horribly.



Arcane Vendetta is significantly better than Weapon Specialization when facing arcane spellcasters. It applies to all weapon attacks, requires a single skill rank to take and requires a simple skill check to activate. I still feel like Atheist Abjurations is a niche feat, but if dispel check bumps are that rare, I can see an argument for upping it a tier. I don't know if Arcane Vendetta deserves to be downgraded; there aren't limited tier slots of anything.

At low levels of typical play, it's usually a pretty niche feat. At higher levels, it would see more play, but remember that it's Arcane spells, not SLA's, which still restricts it heavily to "boss" monsters in a lot of playstyles. Also, for a non-spellcaster type, that is a non-trivial investment in spellcraft to make it reliable, which I feel would put it at about the same level as Weapon Specialization. Let's say even a 7th level spell (DC 22). Without going into +skill items, our Fighter/Barbarian (assuming 13 int) would need 11 ranks in spellcraft or 8 ranks + another feat to make this check 50% of the time.

[Tanuki Tales]

Yes, it's typeless damage. Let's put it in perspective with actual evocations, though. When you first get this feat, it might not seem like a bad trade to give up a 1st level slot for 3d6 typeless. However, a 1st level slot is also worth 5d4+5 force (pretty rarely resisted) or 5d4 fire as an AoE.

Where are you getting a 5d4 fire AoE as a first level spell? I'll admit that Magic Missile does, on average, about 7 points more, but it's also subject to Spell Resistance, which Arcane Blast isn't.


On the other side of it, the Evocation school is pretty weak already. If you're trading in an Evocation spell slot, you're pretty desperate because you're usually trading in more targets, more damage, and more range all at the same time. If you're trading in another school's spells, you've just misprepared horribly.

Where I see this feat ideally being used is to remove the necessity of preparing any kind of blasting spells, period. Fill up your slots with more useful spells and if you're in that situation where blasting is the answer (because the opponent has great saves or high SR/magic immunity, or what have you), you don't get caught with your pants down.




At low levels of typical play, it's usually a pretty niche feat. At higher levels, it would see more play, but remember that it's Arcane spells, not SLA's, which still restricts it heavily to "boss" monsters in a lot of playstyles. Also, for a non-spellcaster type, that is a non-trivial investment in spellcraft to make it reliable, which I feel would put it at about the same level as Weapon Specialization. Let's say even a 7th level spell (DC 22). Without going into +skill items, our Fighter/Barbarian (assuming 13 int) would need 11 ranks in spellcraft or 8 ranks + another feat to make this check 50% of the time.

I was misremembering the formula on spellcraft checks. This feat actually is more useless than Weapon Specialization.

[TuggyNE]

Where are you getting a 5d4 fire AoE as a first level spell?

Burning hands (at CL 5).

[Tanuki Tales]

Burning hands (at CL 5).

Right. :smallsigh:

Fire damage is still the most commonly resisted/immune to energy type though.

[Kamai]

Right. :smallsigh:

Fire damage is still the most commonly resisted/immune to energy type though.

Let me approach this from another angle then. Arcane blast is a worse Eldritch Blast. If Eldritch Blast were offered as a feat, I don't feel that it would be T2. It's a decent class feature that carries some weight (but not a lot) on a Warlock (a T4 class). Eldritch Blast without invocations doesn't threaten the balance of a game. Even if it ignored Spell Resistance, it would not threaten game balance without any invocations. So, Arcane Blast, which has a significant cost attached to it, should not be tiered above Eldritch Blast as a feat. With that comparison, I'd call it fair for it to be a (weak) T3 feat, but not the borderline gamebreaking T2 level.

[Tanuki Tales]

Let me approach this from another angle then. Arcane blast is a worse Eldritch Blast. If Eldritch Blast were offered as a feat, I don't feel that it would be T2. It's a decent class feature that carries some weight (but not a lot) on a Warlock (a T4 class). Eldritch Blast without invocations doesn't threaten the balance of a game. Even if it ignored Spell Resistance, it would not threaten game balance without any invocations. So, Arcane Blast, which has a significant cost attached to it, should not be tiered above Eldritch Blast as a feat. With that comparison, I'd call it fair for it to be a (weak) T3 feat, but not the borderline gamebreaking T2 level.

What significant cost? You just need to be an arcane spellcaster and be level 10.

I otherwise see where you're coming from, but I still question one feat that invalidates most of a school of magic being Tier 3.

[Tanuki Tales]

In the mean time, here's my tiering for the Bs:

Tier 6
Blood Ties - They're both Charisma based skills, so this feat honestly doesn't end up doing much.


Tier 5

Babble-Peddler - This should just be a natural interaction with the skill system, not something that actually requires a feat.
Back to Back - While Perception is a skill most people put ranks into and a circumstance bonus is nice, the fact this only applies against flanking and actual requires you to be grouped up with your party (and vulnerable to AOEs) is what makes this feel like a tier 5 feat to me.
Battle Singer - This is a niche feat that only works on Goblins and requires you to be a Goblin to take.
Bend with the Wind - Cold and Fire Resistance 5 is decent, but this feat has three pretty bad feats as prerequisites.
Black Marketeer - Another feat that should be part of the skill system.
Blighted Critical (Critical) - While some of the minor spellblights are good, some of them are meh and the fact it requires a critical hit and is a random selection makes this feat tier 5 to me.
Blinding Light - A crappy niche feat.
Bloodletting - 1 extra damage a round, but only if you threaten a crit? Yeah, nothing to write home about.
Blowout Shot Deed (Grit) - Why couldn't this have just been a normal deed? Why is this actually worth a feat slot?
Body Control - Great Fortitude is a better feat than this. The "half" stuff is something, but it applies to things that are mostly repaired with magic. Casters are more likely to ask for Heward's Bedroll to be ported in fro 3.5 than they are to actually take this feat.
Body Mastery - DR 2/- at level 15? Seriously? DR 2/- was mostly worthless at level 1.
Bolster Jinx - Bad feat prerequisites tend to knock things down the tier ladder.
Breadth of Experience - This is a skill booster that doesn't even scale.
Burn! Burn! Burn! - Pretty underwhelming as feats go.


Tier 4

Betrayer - What this feat gives is decent, but the prerequisites are bad, so I'd label it tier 4.
Blighted Critical Mastery - This feat lets you choose the spellblight that gets applied. I rank it as tier 4 because of its prerequisites and because you can only use it when you critical hit.
Bolstered Resistance - This feat is decent, but the fact it caps at 20 prevents me from costing it as tier 3.
Butterfly Sting (Critical) - This is a great feat, but doesn't have a high likelihood of seeing much use.


Tier 3
Bat Shape - This feat is a severely limited version of a 4th level spell and requires a race that I bet is sub-optimal, but the fact it can net you flight at level 1 and some decent scouting utility/camouflage makes it feel like a tier 3 feat to me.
Bestow Hope - This is a solid feat.
Bewildering Koan - Solid feat. I could see it argued up to tier 2 because it can lead to a nasty lockdown situation, but I feel like its limitation to one target leave it here.
Bloodmarked Flight - Flight is pretty great, even with such crap maneuverability.
Blood of Heroes - Hero points are solid.
Boon Companion - This upgrades a lesser animal companion or familiar to equal to the guys who don't get a penalty. Animal Companions and familiars are pretty great.
Branded Retribution - Solid feat.


Tier 2
Bloodmage Initiate - The drawbacks of this feat are easily circumvented by casters.

[Kamai]

What significant cost? You just need to be an arcane spellcaster and be level 10.

I otherwise see where you're coming from, but I still question one feat that invalidates most of a school of magic being Tier 3.

Compared to our hypothetical Eldritch blast? Spell Slots. Do you consider Eldritch Blast game-breaking?

[Kamai]

In the mean time, here's my tiering for the Bs:

Tier 6
Blood Ties - They're both Charisma based skills, so this feat honestly doesn't end up doing much.


Tier 5

Babble-Peddler - This should just be a natural interaction with the skill system, not something that actually requires a feat.
Back to Back - While Perception is a skill most people put ranks into and a circumstance bonus is nice, the fact this only applies against flanking and actual requires you to be grouped up with your party (and vulnerable to AOEs) is what makes this feel like a tier 5 feat to me.
Battle Singer - This is a niche feat that only works on Goblins and requires you to be a Goblin to take.
Bend with the Wind - Cold and Fire Resistance 5 is decent, but this feat has three pretty bad feats as prerequisites.
Black Marketeer - Another feat that should be part of the skill system.
Blighted Critical (Critical) - While some of the minor spellblights are good, some of them are meh and the fact it requires a critical hit and is a random selection makes this feat tier 5 to me.
Blinding Light - A crappy niche feat.
Bloodletting - 1 extra damage a round, but only if you threaten a crit? Yeah, nothing to write home about.
Blowout Shot Deed (Grit) - Why couldn't this have just been a normal deed? Why is this actually worth a feat slot?
Body Control - Great Fortitude is a better feat than this. The "half" stuff is something, but it applies to things that are mostly repaired with magic. Casters are more likely to ask for Heward's Bedroll to be ported in fro 3.5 than they are to actually take this feat.
Body Mastery - DR 2/- at level 15? Seriously? DR 2/- was mostly worthless at level 1.
Bolster Jinx - Bad feat prerequisites tend to knock things down the tier ladder.
Breadth of Experience - This is a skill booster that doesn't even scale.
Burn! Burn! Burn! - Pretty underwhelming as feats go.


Tier 4

Betrayer - What this feat gives is decent, but the prerequisites are bad, so I'd label it tier 4.
Blighted Critical Mastery - This feat lets you choose the spellblight that gets applied. I rank it as tier 4 because of its prerequisites and because you can only use it when you critical hit.
Bolstered Resistance - This feat is decent, but the fact it caps at 20 prevents me from costing it as tier 3.
Butterfly Sting (Critical) - This is a great feat, but doesn't have a high likelihood of seeing much use.


Tier 3
Bat Shape - This feat is a severely limited version of a 4th level spell and requires a race that I bet is sub-optimal, but the fact it can net you flight at level 1 and some decent scouting utility/camouflage makes it feel like a tier 3 feat to me.
Bestow Hope - This is a solid feat.
Bewildering Koan - Solid feat. I could see it argued up to tier 2 because it can lead to a nasty lockdown situation, but I feel like its limitation to one target leave it here.
Bloodmarked Flight - Flight is pretty great, even with such crap maneuverability.
Blood of Heroes - Hero points are solid.
Boon Companion - This upgrades a lesser animal companion or familiar to equal to the guys who don't get a penalty. Animal Companions and familiars are pretty great.
Branded Retribution - Solid feat.


Tier 2
Bloodmage Initiate - The drawbacks of this feat are easily circumvented by casters.

Ohh, new feats.
Bat Shape: The race is a little weak, but not too much so. 60ft good flight is just something you don't do at 1st level. Ever. On top of that, it'd inherit 40ft (good) flight. It's no Leadership, but this is at least a very high T2 feat before level 5. At 5+, it probably transfers into T3. It's at-will, but it's niche in combat.

Bestow Hope: I don't think this meets the benchmark for solid class feature. If I were writing this in a Cleric PRC, I'd consider this a strong flavor feature, with it only affecting 1 stage of fear. Sounds like a T4 feat to me.

Bloodmage Initiate: I could be convinced that it's T2, but since the penalty is transferred into polymorphed forms, and is going to cut down the speed from Expeditious Retreat/Haste/Fly, I suspect the penalties might be more significant than you're giving them credit for at low to mid levels.

Butterfly Sting: I think you underestimate how many times a 15-20/x2 weapon can set this off. Pass off the critical hit to a fighter/barbarian with a x4 weapon, or a summon with a massive natural attack? Given that something that can create flanking, this is a feat that should see a lot of use on TWF, especially if TWF gets condensed. If you're worried about positioning, pull out the keen light crossbow (17-20/x2).

[Tanuki Tales]

Compared to our hypothetical Eldritch blast? Spell Slots. Do you consider Eldritch Blast game-breaking?

Tier 2 is actually denoted as being feats that can cause headaches in terms of balance, but are not game-breaking. Untyped damage, at your beck and call, in amounts from 3d6 to 11d6 can be a headache for balance when it comes to what other party members can do and what monsters you select to have to be under the crosshairs for the feat.

The damage it brings to bare is ultimately negligible though against other spells, so I can see it being tier 3. I still don't like this feat.



Bat Shape: The race is a little weak, but not too much so. 60ft good flight is just something you don't do at 1st level. Ever. On top of that, it'd inherit 40ft (good) flight. It's no Leadership, but this is at least a very high T2 feat before level 5. At 5+, it probably transfers into T3. It's at-will, but it's niche in combat.

The fact we don't have some sliding scale for feats and their tiers is why I put this in tier 3 and not 2. It can invalidate some challenges early on (like not being able to easily cross a pit trap room to pull an important lever, or chasing a villain escaping with the princess on a flying mount), but it does lose that as soon as more conventional forms of flight come online. Shall we just add a note to it?


Bestow Hope: I don't think this meets the benchmark for solid class feature. If I were writing this in a Cleric PRC, I'd consider this a strong flavor feature, with it only affecting 1 stage of fear. Sounds like a T4 feat to me.

I just did some digging and I actually can't find anything that flat out removes fear conditions in just Pathfinder or reduce its severity. A Paladin with the right Mercies selected can do something similar, but not as efficiently.


Bloodmage Initiate: I could be convinced that it's T2, but since the penalty is transferred into polymorphed forms, and is going to cut down the speed from Expeditious Retreat/Haste/Fly, I suspect the penalties might be more significant than you're giving them credit for at low to mid levels.

How does this effect Expeditious Retreat and Haste directly? Fly specifically calls out that the flight speed is reduced by encumbrance, but the other two are only indirectly impacted because of the 10 foot reduction in base land speed.

I don't see how this really carries over to polymorphed forms though. It only reduces base land speed, not any other movement modes (unless that is specifically spelled out as based off base land speed). And, again, the negative impacts of this feat are easily mitigated with spells.


Butterfly Sting: I think you underestimate how many times a 15-20/x2 weapon can set this off. Pass off the critical hit to a fighter/barbarian with a x4 weapon, or a summon with a massive natural attack? Given that something that can create flanking, this is a feat that should see a lot of use on TWF, especially if TWF gets condensed. If you're worried about positioning, pull out the keen light crossbow (17-20/x2).

On a 15-20 crit range, you only have a 30% chance of setting this feat off on any one attack roll. Also, a crit fisher build usually has a large payout for setting off those crits, so why would they give that up to let someone else crit hit?

In the case of the crossbow, that's only a 20% chance of setting this feat off. A sniper has more of a reason to have this feat, but that's still a rare occurrence for a valuable resource.

[Kamai]

The fact we don't have some sliding scale for feats and their tiers is why I put this in tier 3 and not 2. It can invalidate some challenges early on (like not being able to easily cross a pit trap room to pull an important lever, or chasing a villain escaping with the princess on a flying mount), but it does lose that as soon as more conventional forms of flight come online. Shall we just add a note to it?

Probably good to put a note to it while its in tiers. When you actually start putting points to it, I wonder if refunding some of the points at level x, or adding "You gain an appropriate T5 feat at X ranks of Fly (probably Skill Focus (Fly) or Acrobatics)" would be fitting for sliding scale feats.



How does this effect Expeditious Retreat and Haste directly? Fly specifically calls out that the flight speed is reduced by encumbrance, but the other two are only indirectly impacted because of the 10 foot reduction in base land speed.

I don't see how this really carries over to polymorphed forms though. It only reduces base land speed, not any other movement modes (unless that is specifically spelled out as based off base land speed). And, again, the negative impacts of this feat are easily mitigated with spells.


One: It's not a 10ft reduction of speed. It's a flat reduction of 1/3 of your speed, because how loads work. A barbarian wearing medium armor has his fast movement reduced, you just don't see it because of rounding. A horse in chainmail has his speed reduced by more than 10ft.



The table below provides reduced speed figures for all base speeds from 5 feet to 120 feet (in 5-foot increments)
All base speeds. That includes fly speeds, burrow speeds, swim speeds, and whatever other speeds you can come up with. The feat carries over to polymorphed forms because all of your feats carry over to polymorphed forms. If you think it's easily mitigated, I won't say anything, but I think at low to mid levels, you're using about as many spells to mitigate it as the +1 CL might be worth. Just what I intuitively think, that's all.

[Tanuki Tales]

Probably good to put a note to it while its in tiers. When you actually start putting points to it, I wonder if refunding some of the points at level x, or adding "You gain an appropriate T5 feat at X ranks of Fly (probably Skill Focus (Fly) or Acrobatics)" would be fitting for sliding scale feats.

While point refunding is something to look into (albeit that's complex as well), your other suggestion just sounds overtly complex for what we're trying to do. All things to keep in mind.




One: It's not a 10ft reduction of speed. It's a flat reduction of 1/3 of your speed, because how loads work. A barbarian wearing medium armor has his fast movement reduced, you just don't see it because of rounding. A horse in chainmail has his speed reduced by more than 10ft.

10 feet, 1/3rd your speed, to-may-to, to-mah-to. Encumbrance only affects your base land speed, not anything that provides a bonus (the bonuses are untouched).



All base speeds. That includes fly speeds, burrow speeds, swim speeds, and whatever other speeds you can come up with. The feat carries over to polymorphed forms because all of your feats carry over to polymorphed forms. If you think it's easily mitigated, I won't say anything, but I think at low to mid levels, you're using about as many spells to mitigate it as the +1 CL might be worth. Just what I intuitively think, that's all.

See, I've seen the table, but I also found this:


Base speed is your unencumbered speed for a specified type of movement. Your base speed for any movement type is calculated in a similar manner as described in Base Land speed. When a speed type is not referenced, base speed usually implies base land speed.

Emphasis mine. The feat never specifies what "base speed" it applies to, so it defaults to base land speed. When you polymorph or gain flight that either does not spell out that it's affected by encumbrance or is based off your base land speed, it is unaffected by this feat. Same thing with any movement mode that is not natural to you as a creature.

[Kamai]

Emphasis mine. The feat never specifies what "base speed" it applies to, so it defaults to base land speed. When you polymorph or gain flight that either does not spell out that it's affected by encumbrance or is based off your base land speed, it is unaffected by this feat. Same thing with any movement mode that is not natural to you as a creature.

Ok, if that is the actual ruling that it goes off of, I see no reason that the feat isn't T2. I feel like that this ruling has some bizarre consequences for flying mounts, since most of them have a land speed. Nobody ever said that RAW was sane, though.

[Tanuki Tales]

Ok, if that is the actual ruling that it goes off of, I see no reason that the feat isn't T2. I feel like that this ruling has some bizarre consequences for flying mounts, since most of them have a land speed. Nobody ever said that RAW was sane, though.

For flying mounts, it would apply to both, since they're both "base speeds" for that creature. But if that creature later gets a burrow and a swim speed that is not keyed off their base land speed or base fly speed, they wouldn't be affected.

I know its confusing, but you're right that RAW never was the most sane thing. :smalltongue:

Edit:

And here's my tier placements for the Cs:

Tier 6
Caustic Slur - This feat is just honestly stupid. Like you'd want to get targeted and have the enemy do more damage to you. A ranger is not a "tank".
Conviction - This is really, really niche.
Corsair - Yet another niche feat. Unless you're playing Spelljammer. :smalltongue:
Critical Conduit - This is a feat for a familiar.


Tier 5

Channeling Scourge - So...you dip Cleric and then go Inquisitor? And this feat does nothing for stacking those Cleric levels now that you've decided to go Inquisitor? Meh feat.
Close Call - Crap feat with crap prerequisite.
Cloud Step - Monks need love and this feat should have been part of the class.
Cold Celerity - Being able to get the bonuses at will is pretty much what saves this from being tier 6.
Combat Distraction - I can see...some use somewhere for this feat, but it'd be suicide to use it in combat.
Combat Medic - Heal is a lackluster skill and this is a lackluster feat.
Companion Figurine - This is exactly what we want, a feat that is useless without spending gold on specific, lackluster magic items. Oh, what's that you say? It can only be used for an incredibly short length of time each day? Well, good day sir, but I shall shop elsewhere!
Cosmopolitan - So...what two skill ranks in Linguistics would get you, without the benefits of the actual skill? And two +3s isn't better than the other skill boosters consigned to tier 5. Especially since the skills that are better than the others are on the skill lists of the characters who would take this feat for reasons other than fluff.
Create Reliquary Arms and Shields - Meh feat.
Crusdaer's Flurry - Monk has always been a dippable class, but I don't see anyone ever using Flurry of Blows.
Cursed Item Detection - Niche feat.
Cut Your Losses - So...a feat to encourage bad teamwork. And this probably should have been part of the rules by themselves.


Tier 4

Careful Speaker - The saving bonus against Scry attempts is what makes this tier 4 instead of 5.
Cartwheel Dodge - You can't get it till level 12 and movement really doesn't have too much tactical value in battle. You're probably only getting 15 feet out of this for an immediate action and there are better uses for an immediate action. The feat isn't terrible though and could have been tier 3 if you could get it much earlier.
Childlike - Taking 10 on Bluff checks is nice, but it's in niche situations. This feat is pretty much niche all around, but it's not terrible.
Conceal Scent - I don't believe scent is prevalent enough to rank this higher.
Create Sanguine Elixir - Why would a Sorcerer give up their only class feature that separates them from Wizards?



Tier 3
Celestial Obedience - I honestly have no clue what this feat does exactly, but it sounds like a tier 3 feat to me. Hopefully someone with access to this book can enlighten me.
Channeled Revival - Breath of Life is a meh spell, so this is an alright feat.
Channeled Shield Wall - A decent feat.
Contingent Channeling - A decent feat.
Cypher Magic - Pretty good feat.


Tier 2
Combat Casting - Like spellcasters need things easier on them.
Command Undead - Let's play "Break the Action Economy!"
Cypher Script - Either you don't pay attention to spellbook rules, or you do and this just made things easier on the casters. Again.

Tier 1
Center of Power - This kind of power shouldn't be in the hands of a PC. You want to play a kingdom building and management game, play one of those.
Cooperative Crafting - Hello "Dedicated Wright: The Feat".

[Tanuki Tales]

Ds are up and I'll do a tiering of them when I get a chance.

[Tanuki Tales]

And here are the Ds:


Tier 6
Desert Dweller - The environment feats are super niche.
Dog Killer, Horse Hunter - Fluff feat and kind of stupid.
Draconic Discipline - This feat requires you to be a dragon.
Drugged Healing - Crap healing for potential ability damage? Sign me up!
Druidic Decoder - So niche it's painful.


Tier 5

Dampen Presence - Bad prereqs and is kind of niche. Stealthing against blindsense and blindsight are good, but this kind of feat should cover all types of sensory modes.
Dark Adept - You have to be a drow and the SLAs are kind of...eh. They have use, but it's niche.
Deadly Dealer - Aesthetically, this feat is pretty awesome. Mechanically, it's just underwhelming; darts are terrible weapons, cards may not be easy to come by and casters have better things to do with their swift actions.
Deceitful - The skill boosters are just bad.
Deep Drinker - Monks need more love.
Deft Hands - It's a skill booster.
Deft Shootist Deed - This really should just be part of the class. And not have the prerequisite feats it does.
Deny Death - Monks, love, you know.
Diehard - Such a bad feat.
Dilettante - This doesn't stack with Skill Focus and you can already make untrained Knowledge checks up to DC 10, so it's not much of an improvement. And its prereqs kind of make this feat a bad investment.
Dimensional Assault - Casters don't charge unless they're shapechanged and they've got better things going for them then this feat. Monks need love.
Dimension Dervish - Monks.
Dimensional Maneuvers - Monks.
Dimensional Savant - Monks.
Dire Bat Shape - A dire bat is not that much better than a bat, except in certain contexts.
Dispelling Critical (Critical) - A feat that would rarely come up and I don't see casters really taking.
Dispelling Fist - Who...who would take this?
Disposable Weapon - Niche feat.
Divine Denouncer - Kind of meh.
Double Bane - You should be able to do this without a feat.
Draconic Defender - So...keep everyone in arm's reach for a meh natural armor bonus? Yeah....
Dragonbane Aura - Niche feat.
Dragonheart - Niche feat.
Drugged Euphoria - You need to be an addict to get this feat. Ugh.


Tier 4

Deceptive Exchange - This should be a normal part of the rules, but I can see it being useful.
Deepsight - It's an okay feat, but ranks in Perception should play into vision modes.
Defending Eidolon - Dodge bonuses are nice, but who keeps their Eidolon close to them?
Die for Your Master - It doesn't apply to spells or SLAs. That prevents this from being tier 3.
Discordant Voice - This needs to scale.
Disorienting Maneuver - Decent for trip builds, but that's about it.
Divine Defiance - An alright feat.
Dragoncrafting - None of the items are anything to really write home about, but the negative level cure is nice.
Drugged Rejuvenation - Crap feat, but better than the other drugged ones.
Duck and Cover (Teamwork) - All the teamwork feats would be better if it didn't require others to have the same feat.



Tier 3
Demonic Obedience - Same as the Celestial one.
Destroy Identity - Ability damage and staggering on a critical hit? Pretty nice. Might knock this down a tier because it does only key off a crit.
Disruptive Recall - Decent feat.
Distant Jinx - Halfling Jinx keeps getting nastier!
Divine Interference - Decent feat.


Tier 2
Destructive Dispel - Dispel Magic is already an amazing spell and now you're making it into Save or Suck? Good idea design team.
Detect Expertise - So, one of the way a caster could lose to another caster is removed? Like they need more prep time boons.
Dimensional Agility - Yes, let's make Dimension Door an even better combat spell. This is tier 5 for monks though.
Dispel Synergy - Why yes, we should totally make casters better!
Divination Guide - Divination magic is already too good.
Diviner’s Delving - Divination does not need to be made better.

Tier 1
Divine Deception - I see no good coming from this feat.

[Tanuki Tales]

If there are no issues with my rankings for the Cs and the Ds, I'd like to move them to the Tier list and get on to the Es and the Fs.

[Tanuki Tales]

Time for the E's:


Tier 6
Eschew Materials - Let's be honest, how many people track spell components worth less than 1g? Every player and GM/DM I've ever met just assume you've filled up your spell component pouch at each civilized area or just ignore the materials.If your GM/DM is a serious stickler, this is a tier 4 feat.
Experienced Vagabond - Niche.
Expert Driver - Niche.
Eyes of Judgement - I personally find this feat niche. You either know what creature you're dealing with because of Knowledge skills or it pings evil and you just smite it anyways.


Tier 5

Elusive Redirection - Monks.
Endurance - Such a bad feat.
Ensemble (Teamwork) - The concept of teamwork feats, using the feat slot paradigm, was just bad game design in my opinion. With feats being so precious a resource, you're not going to see these taken by PCs.
Exploit Lore - You call this a 12th level feat? Whoopie-doo.
Extra Evolution - One extra evolution point?! The game can't handle that level of broken!
Extra Gnome Magic - The gnome SLAs aren't that good.
Extra Ki - Monks.



Tier 4

Eagle Eyes - A neat feat, but it's kind of niche.
Eldritch Eye - Casters have better things to do with their spell slots. The only worthwhile thing this gives is the caster level bump, seeing as everything else can be gained with spells (one of which is a cantrip)
Eldritch Heritage - The prerequisites for this feat is what makes it tier 4 instead of 3.
Elemental Focus - The fact this doesn't cover any of the useful energy types makes it tier 4 to me.
Escape Route (Teamwork) - This might just be the best Teamwork feat.
Extra Bane - Extended Bane is a better feat than this.
Extra Cantrips or Orisons - 0th level spells can be good, but not that good.
Extra Grit - Gunslingers need some help.
Extra Rogue Talent - Rogues need help too.



Tier 3
Effortless Trickery - I'm sure there's someway to abuse this feat, but I don't see it being tier 2.
Elemental Channel - Decent feat.
Esoteric Advantage - I just wish it scaled.
Evolved Familiar - Some of the 1 point evolutions are decent.
Expert Trainer - I don't know the full scope of the effects of this feat, but my gut tells me that it's at least tier 3.
Extended Bane - Decent feat.
Extra Arcana - Decent feat.
Extra Arcane Pool - Decent feat.
Extra Bombs - Depends on your bomb options to be honest, otherwise tier 5.
Extra Channel - Decent feat.
Extra Discovery - Decent feat.
Extra Feature - Someone please inform me if the Skinwalker class actually sucks.
Extra Hex - Decent feat.
Extra Lay on Hands - Decent feat.
Extra Mercy - Decent feat.
Extra Performance - I was tempted to make this a tier 4, if only because the Bardic Performance class feature got heavily nerfed.
Extra Rage - See above.
Extra Rage Power - Decent feat.
Extra Ranger Trap - I honestly don't know if they're good or not.
Extra Revelation - Decent feat.


Tier 2
Energy Attunement - Yes, let's just let casters alter the effects on their spells on the fly.
Expanded Arcana - Spells are boss.
Extra Item Slot - This has nasty implications.
Extra Summons - Conjuration is king.

[Grod_The_Giant]

So, I'm not too familiar with Pathfinder, but I'm bored in class and this looks interesting. I clicked through to look at the T1 feats out of curiosity, and I must say...


Tier 1
Divine Deception - I see no good coming from this feat.
Seriously? +5 to certain UMD checks is game-breaking on the level of Leadership? It's about even with Skill Focus, I'd say, even if you can have both. (Heck, auto-succeeding on all UMD checks probably wouldn't be game-breaking on the level of Leadership)

[Tanuki Tales]

So, I'm not too familiar with Pathfinder, but I'm bored in class and this looks interesting. I clicked through to look at the T1 feats out of curiosity, and I must say...


Seriously? +5 to certain UMD checks is game-breaking on the level of Leadership? It's about even with Skill Focus, I'd say, even if you can have both. (Heck, auto-succeeding on all UMD checks probably wouldn't be game-breaking on the level of Leadership)

Tier 1 is any feat that leads to a break in the game. It doesn't need to be as borked as Leadership to be tier 1.

UMD allows classes to be a poor man's wizard and a feat that gives a flat +5 to the best skill in the game at level 2 (when you wouldn't otherwise get such a bonus until level 10) feels simply too good. I can see an argument for it being a tier 2 feat instead of a tier 1 feat.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Tier 1 is any feat that leads to a break in the game. It doesn't need to be as borked as Leadership to be tier 1.

UMD allows classes to be a poor man's wizard and a feat that gives a flat +5 to the best skill in the game at level 2 (when you wouldn't otherwise get such a bonus until level 10) feels simply too good. I can see an argument for it being a tier 2 feat instead of a tier 1 feat.
Divine Deception requires 5 ranks of Knowledge (Religion), so you're not taking the feat until level 5. And it only works with divine items, and it only works for spell trigger/completion items or to emulate a class feature. And on top of that, being "a poor man's wizard" requires you to spend big piles of cash. I can't see it above T3 or T4.

[Tanuki Tales]

Divine Deception requires 5 ranks of Knowledge (Religion), so you're not taking the feat until level 5. And it only works with divine items, and it only works for spell trigger/completion items or to emulate a class feature. And on top of that, being "a poor man's wizard" requires you to spend big piles of cash. I can't see it above T3 or T4.

Right, crap, sorry, I had a brain fart and got my wires crossed with 3.5 and PF max skill ranks again.

It is a Tier 3 feat.

[Tanuki Tales]

Here's the F's:

Tier 6
Fast Crawl - This should be part of the rules.


Tier 5

False Casting - This should be a part of the rules.
Famine Tolerance - Being a vampire already sucks enough.
Fast Drinker - Monks.
Fast Healer - The prerequisite feats are terrible.
Favored Judgement - Such a bad feat.
Fiendish Darkness - Really meh.
Fiendish Facade - Niche.
Fiendish Heritage - You shouldn't need a feat for this.
Fiendish Resilience - I can see the use in this feat, but it's still niche and requires your GM to work with you.
Fight On - Meh feat.
Fire God's Blessing - I remember seeing some builds that tried to abuse this feat, but they weren't spectacular. I also feel like this should have been a Goblin feat.
Fleet - Movement speed has no tactical use and this should be part of the rules.
Fox Shape - Meh feat.



Tier 4

Fast Change - I don't know the class, so please inform me otherwise.
Favored Defense - The fact this feat needs your GM to work with you makes it tier 4.
Fearless Aura - Range is too limited.
Fearsome Finish - I wonder if this should just be part of the rules.
Fey Foundling - Good, but not great.
Field Repair - Kind of niche, but not terrible.
Fire Magic - Kind of neat, but not optimal.
Focused Eidolon - Why would you keep your Eidolon close?
Free Spirit - Useful, but not amazing.
Friendly Switch - Yet another feat that should just be a part of the rules.
Friend to Animals - Niche feat.
Furious Finish - Only affects weapon damage dice and full attacking is probably better.



Tier 3
Familiar Spell - I'm not sure who would honestly take this feat and it might just be tier 2.
Fascination Jinx - Decent feat.
Fast Empathy - This might be a tier 2 or higher feat, depending on how abusable Wild Empathy actually is.
Focused Disbelief - Spell Resistance is nice.


Tier 2
Familiar Focus - Familiars could already be pretty good, this is just icing.
Fortune Teller - Yes, let's make divination spells easier and more powerful.


Tier 1
Focused Overseer - You want to play a shop owner/industry runner, go play a game based around that.
Focused Worker - See above.
Fortunate Manager - See above.
Fortunate Ruler - See above.

[Frozen_Feet]

Here's a thought for simplifying things a bit:

All feats that grant flat bonus to skill checks cost points equal to the bonus they grant, multiplied by number of skills they apply to. For example: Acrobatic gives +2 to Jump and tumble, so it costs 4 points. If the bonus is conditional, they instead cost 0.75 times as many points per skill.

All feats that grant flat bonus to attack rolls, combat maneuvers or saves cost 1.5 times as many points as the bonus they grant. For example, Weapon Focus gives +1 to attack rolls, so it'd cost 1 point. Iron Will gives +2 bonus to Will Saves, so it'd cost 3 points.

All feats that grant flat bonus to all checks governed by an ability costs twice as many points as the bonus they give. For example, a feat that'd grant +1 to all Charisma checks would cost 2 points. If the bonus to ability checks is conditional, the multiplier is reduced to 1.5. For example, Endurance gives +4 to various Con checks, so it'd cost 6 points.

[Tanuki Tales]

Here's a thought for simplifying things a bit:

All feats that grant flat bonus to skill checks cost points equal to the bonus they grant, multiplied by number of skills they apply to. For example: Acrobatic gives +2 to Jump and tumble, so it costs 4 points. If the bonus is conditional, they instead cost 0.75 times as many points per skill.

All feats that grant flat bonus to attack rolls, combat maneuvers or saves cost 1.5 times as many points as the bonus they grant. For example, Weapon Focus gives +1 to attack rolls, so it'd cost 1 point. Iron Will gives +2 bonus to Will Saves, so it'd cost 3 points.

All feats that grant flat bonus to all checks governed by an ability costs twice as many points as the bonus they give. For example, a feat that'd grant +1 to all Charisma checks would cost 2 points. If the bonus to ability checks is conditional, the multiplier is reduced to 1.5. For example, Endurance gives +4 to various Con checks, so it'd cost 6 points.

I feel like that undercosts some things and overcosts others. For example, Endurance is not a Tier 4 feat; it's complete and utter crap.

I agree with RoC's approach to simply tiering all the feats first and then coming up with costs for the feats inside of each of their tiers.

[JHShadon]

The Skinwalker (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/more-races/standard-races-1-10-rp/skinwalkers-10-rp) is a race, not a class and can be found on the PFSRD in the "More Races" (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/more-races) section.

Also you forgot the feat:Arcane Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/arcane-strike-combat)

[Tanuki Tales]

The Skinwalker (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/more-races/standard-races-1-10-rp/skinwalkers-10-rp) is a race, not a class and can be found on the PFSRD in the "More Races" (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/more-races) section.

Thank you kindly.


Also you forgot the feat:Arcane Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/arcane-strike-combat)

No, I didn't. We're starting with "General Feats" first, while Arcane Strike is a "Combat Feat".


Edit:

With my new knowledge of Skinwalkers, I feel that Extra Feature is a tier 5 feat (it's no so terrible as to be tier 6, though it is god awful), but Fast Change is still tier 4.

[Tanuki Tales]

Here are the Gs and Hs.


Tier 6
Groundling - Niche.
Galley Slave - Niche.
Hymn Singer - Niche.
Imperial Conscript - Niche
Jumper - Most PCs can't take this and it wasn't that great anyways.


Tier 5

Glorious Heat - This feat is terrible since the unofficial errata. If you don't use that though, this is tier 1.
Gnome Trickster - Meh feat.
Golden Legion's Stayed Blade - This should be part of the rules.
Greater Channel Smite - I only see Paladin's taking this.
Greater Mercy - 1d6? Seriously?
Great Fortitude - Bad feat is bad.
Gunslinger - The description of this feat is honestly confusing.
Gunsmithing - This should be a part of the rules.
Gliding Steps - Monks.
Harmonic Sage - Niche feat and pretty meh.
Harmonic Spell - This should be part of the rules.
Harrowed - This feat is meh and requires more input than it gives in output.
Helpless Prisoner - This should be a part of the rules.
Heroic Defiance - Can only be used once per day and the prerequisites are just terrible.
Heroic Recovery - See above.
Imperial Squire - Niche, but not worthless.
Improved Back to Back - Teamwork feats are just bad.
Improved Fiendish Darkness - Meh feat.
Improved Stalwart - Gained too late, in too little an amount with bad prerequisites to boot.
Inner Light - Niche.
Intimidating Gaze - This should be usable more often.
Invoke Primal Instinct - Worst use of a Wild Shape use, ever.
Ironguts - Niche.
Ironhide - +1 Natural Armor? Whoopie-doo.
Iron Will - Meh feat is meh.
Island Blood - See above.



Tier 4

Greater Blighted Critical - The major spellblights are neat, but its still random and still requires a critical hit.
Greater Elemental Focus - Meh.
Improved Channel - Ok, just not amazing.
Improved Counterspell - Opens options, but not optimal.
Improved Day Job - I...am not familiar with these rules.
Improved Great Fortitude - Meh.
Improved Iron Will - See above.
Improved Lightning Reflexes - See above.
Improved Stonecunning - Alright, just not great.
Intimidating Bane - A +2 bonus isn't that great, but group demoralizing is nice.
Jackal Heritage - Not a great feat, but it's ok.



Tier 3
Godless Healing - I see no reason anyone who's not a Cleric wouldn't take this feat.
Go Unnoticed - Decent feat.
Grant Initiative - Decent feat.
Greater Eldritch Heritage - Off the top of my head I can't think of any bloodline powers that would make this tier 2.
Greater Spell Focus - Spells are boss, so I wonder if this should be tier 2.
Greater Spell Penetration - See above.
Greater Wild Empathy - Decent feat.
Green Guardian - This can help some particularly nasty druid spells.
Guided Hand - One step closer to being SAD.
Hellcast Stealth - Decent feat.
Hero's Fortune - Hero points are great.
Imperial Knight - Nowhere near as good as Leadership, as it should be.
Implant Bomb - Decent feat.
Improved Eldritch Heritage - See the Greater version of this feat.
Improved Familiar - Decent feat.
Improved Learn Ranger Trap - Seems decent.
Improved Monster Lore - Decent feat.
Improved Share Spells - I'm sure there's a way to abuse this, but the 5 foot limitation stops this from being tier 2 to me.
Insightful Gaze - Decent feat.
Instant Judgement - Decent feat.
Jinx Alchemy - Halfling Jinx...I think you might be my new favorite racial trait.
Judgement Surge - Decent feat.


Tier 2
Greater Spell Specialization - Wizards do not need to be stepping on the toes of Sorcerers.
Improved Fiendish Sorcery - Casters don't need bumps like this.



Tier 1
Inspirational Commander - No. Just...no.


Edit:

Is and Js added.

[Kamai]

Catching up on feats:
Cosmopolitan: I could see what you're getting at, but I'm having trouble with a skill that can hand a bonus to UMD as well as other stuff as a T5.
Contingent Channeling: I think you forgot to double check prerequisites. The cleric that can use this feat gives up everything related to a second domain, and is locked into the Healing Domain as his only domain. It comes with some nice condition healing on it's channels, but the archetype otherwise weakens the cleric, probably moving this feat to T4 due to prerequisites.
Combat Casting: On your scale, this is probably T2. Be really careful how having this feat expensive affects the Magus.
Center of Power: This is not a T1 feat. This feat gives reasonable bonuses with respect to the Kingdom building rules that Paizo has put forth (and used in a major adventure path). This comes out at most a +3 or +4 to several rolls involved in the kingdom, and this feat does nothing if the group hasn't already agreed to have kingdom building as part of the game. This is T3 at best.
Cooperative Crafting: You have 2 ways of getting an item creation feat on someone. First, you have to have an actual caster level (I don't think a SLA caster level applies here). Otherwise, you need 5 ranks in a craft + Master Craftsman. This means that your crafting ally has at least 9HD. On top of it, if the ally isn't a caster, this only works on craft Wondrous item. Honestly, if this is a T1 feat, then for the bonuses that it gives, Skill Focus (Spellcraft) is at least a T3 feat, giving the crafter a bigger bonus to crafting checks without all of the hoops.

Dispelling Critical: Dispel Magic is on the Magus list, and they could definitely run the 18-20 weapons to make this feat worthwhile. These sort of feats might need to be reevaluated in the context of the Magus.
Destructive Dispel: This walks so close to your definition of T1, it isn't funny. This is save and suck, not save or suck.
Detect Expertise: Arcane Sight does most of this without a save or a feat, and without the time delay. This is only T3 at best, and only because detect magic is allowed for this feat.
Divination Guide: I don't see how this is a feat that's harmful to game balance. An always on +2 to saves (Iron Will) is something you've already marked as T5. If you're willing to accept that +1 on all saves is about equal to +2 on one save, it's now a sometimes on Iron will. This is not a T2 feat in the least. This should be no more than T4, which is where I think a general +1 to all saving throws would be placed.

Eschew Materials: I think it's at least T5 in general, because it takes out a weakness of casters (destruction of spell component pouches). Again, not many DMs keep this in mind, but...
Elemental Channel: While Elementals can come pretty commonly from the Summon Monster X, and SNA X, this seems like otherwise a really niche feat to be T3. The damage wasn't anything to write home about when you channel against Undead, and though it may stick a little better against outsiders, it's still to 1 type of elemental outsiders and Will half.
Extra Ranger Trap: Ranger Traps are terrible outside of one semi-broken option, and they already replace Ranger Spellcasting. This is T4 at best.
Energy Attunement: You do realize that this makes Polymorph a mini-shapechange? It doesn't get the most powerful options, but at that level, it's scary, and it also lets you change around any of the shape spells. This might be T1.
Extra Item Slot: This feat does nothing for standard PCs that don't do a lot of shapeshifting. I guess this is the sort of feat that can do interesting things on an Eidolon or a Animal Companion, but I'm not sure if it makes it T2.
Extra Summons: This is based off the Summoner Class feature, and is normally unavailable when the Eidolon is present. It's a strong T3 feat, but not having the Eidolon out is normally a pretty nasty trade.

I think you need to take another look at the Dimensional feats with respect to the Bard and Magus (both secondary melee that can cast Dimension Door). On top of this, having a low cost for these feats may echo through to monsters that Dimension Door in a pretty nasty way. I can't think of monsters that have these feats off hand, but they tend towards T4 and lower feats already, so adding those in for cheap could be scary.

So that's my pass through the Cs, Ds, and Es. I want to get through the rest later today.

[Tanuki Tales]

Catching up on feats:

Glad to have you back. :smallsmile:


Cosmopolitan: I could see what you're getting at, but I'm having trouble with a skill that can hand a bonus to UMD as well as other stuff as a T5.

While I would normally agree, you have to remember that it doesn't give bonuses, it just makes two skills class skills. The classes that get the most out of UMD already have them on their class list and I'm not going to punish mundanes further than necessary (who'd be the ones to most benefit from this feat).


Contingent Channeling: I think you forgot to double check prerequisites. The cleric that can use this feat gives up everything related to a second domain, and is locked into the Healing Domain as his only domain. It comes with some nice condition healing on it's channels, but the archetype otherwise weakens the cleric, probably moving this feat to T4 due to prerequisites.

The archetype weakens the cleric, not the feat. So for a cleric in that archetype, this is the equivalent of a solid class feature.


Combat Casting: On your scale, this is probably T2. Be really careful how having this feat expensive affects the Magus.

The feat is listed as tier 2. I'm not super-knowledgable on the Magus, so does it really need Combat Casting to function?


Center of Power: This is not a T1 feat. This feat gives reasonable bonuses with respect to the Kingdom building rules that Paizo has put forth (and used in a major adventure path). This comes out at most a +3 or +4 to several rolls involved in the kingdom, and this feat does nothing if the group hasn't already agreed to have kingdom building as part of the game. This is T3 at best.

This entire tier system is working with the conventional game paradigm. So, when introducing this feat and the subsystem it represents into a game where it had not been makes it the hallmark of a tier 1. It has literally shattered the campaign into an entirely separate form.


Cooperative Crafting: You have 2 ways of getting an item creation feat on someone. First, you have to have an actual caster level (I don't think a SLA caster level applies here). Otherwise, you need 5 ranks in a craft + Master Craftsman. This means that your crafting ally has at least 9HD. On top of it, if the ally isn't a caster, this only works on craft Wondrous item. Honestly, if this is a T1 feat, then for the bonuses that it gives, Skill Focus (Spellcraft) is at least a T3 feat, giving the crafter a bigger bonus to crafting checks without all of the hoops.

You're forgetting the possibility of two PC casters getting into this together. The biggest thing about this feat isn't the skill bonus, it's allowing two differently built characters to churn out a larger variety of magic items at twice the pace.


Dispelling Critical: Dispel Magic is on the Magus list, and they could definitely run the 18-20 weapons to make this feat worthwhile. These sort of feats might need to be reevaluated in the context of the Magus.

I didn't know that was on the Magus' spell list, to be honest. But since the Magus is something of a Tier 3/Tier 4 class, do you really think it'd come up often enough to warrant being a Tier 4 or higher feat?


Destructive Dispel: This walks so close to your definition of T1, it isn't funny. This is save and suck, not save or suck.

But does it break the game?


Detect Expertise: Arcane Sight does most of this without a save or a feat, and without the time delay. This is only T3 at best, and only because detect magic is allowed for this feat.

Actually, no Arcane Sight doesn't. Neither does it's greater version. This feat literally lets you know what class features they selected.


Divination Guide: I don't see how this is a feat that's harmful to game balance. An always on +2 to saves (Iron Will) is something you've already marked as T5. If you're willing to accept that +1 on all saves is about equal to +2 on one save, it's now a sometimes on Iron will. This is not a T2 feat in the least. This should be no more than T4, which is where I think a general +1 to all saving throws would be placed.

I ranked it because of the fact that it improves two already too good spells, but I see your point. Hm...


Eschew Materials: I think it's at least T5 in general, because it takes out a weakness of casters (destruction of spell component pouches). Again, not many DMs keep this in mind, but...

Destruction of the spell component pouch is another one of those things that either never happens or it happens and your guys go with Blood Money instead. I just don't see this feat ever having any real importance.


Elemental Channel: While Elementals can come pretty commonly from the Summon Monster X, and SNA X, this seems like otherwise a really niche feat to be T3. The damage wasn't anything to write home about when you channel against Undead, and though it may stick a little better against outsiders, it's still to 1 type of elemental outsiders and Will half.

I was looking at it from the angle of Planar Binding and minionmancy in combat. It's nice to be able to only heal your minions in an AOE.


Extra Ranger Trap: Ranger Traps are terrible outside of one semi-broken option, and they already replace Ranger Spellcasting. This is T4 at best.

Like I said, I don't know the character option.


Energy Attunement: You do realize that this makes Polymorph a mini-shapechange? It doesn't get the most powerful options, but at that level, it's scary, and it also lets you change around any of the shape spells. This might be T1.

Which is why I made it tier 2. Does it break the game though or do those spells break the game? Something to ruminate over.


Extra Item Slot: This feat does nothing for standard PCs that don't do a lot of shapeshifting. I guess this is the sort of feat that can do interesting things on an Eidolon or a Animal Companion, but I'm not sure if it makes it T2.

You can put it on a Familiar, it's a familiar feat. I just see bad things coming from it, like word activated custom items.


Extra Summons: This is based off the Summoner Class feature, and is normally unavailable when the Eidolon is present. It's a strong T3 feat, but not having the Eidolon out is normally a pretty nasty trade.

I've honestly never been convinced that the Eidolon is more useful than the SM line. Is there anything terribly wrong with this being a low tier 2 instead of a high tier 3?


I think you need to take another look at the Dimensional feats with respect to the Bard and Magus (both secondary melee that can cast Dimension Door). On top of this, having a low cost for these feats may echo through to monsters that Dimension Door in a pretty nasty way. I can't think of monsters that have these feats off hand, but they tend towards T4 and lower feats already, so adding those in for cheap could be scary.

Bard is kind of on the doorway of tier 3/tier 4 since the nerfs to Bardic Music and I know Magus needs a little bit more love. Most of the monsters I know of who could use these feats to their potential could use the boost to be honest, but I admit it's something that requires more research.


So that's my pass through the Cs, Ds, and Es. I want to get through the rest later today.

Take your time, grateful as always. :smallsmile:

[Kamai]

Glad to have you back. :smallsmile:
The archetype weakens the cleric, not the feat. So for a cleric in that archetype, this is the equivalent of a solid class feature.

I noticed that you docked feats for prereqs before, and this seemed like it might be another case, but I see where you're coming from, too.



The feat is listed as tier 2. I'm not super-knowledgable on the Magus, so does it really need Combat Casting to function?

Ok, so disregard what I'm saying. I guess I was remembering a beta version of the Magus where you had to do Concentration checks just to use a primary feature (Spell Combat).



This entire tier system is working with the conventional game paradigm. So, when introducing this feat and the subsystem it represents into a game where it had not been makes it the hallmark of a tier 1. It has literally shattered the campaign into an entirely separate form.

I'm willing to argue that the feat does nothing without the extra rules to interact with. This is along the lines of allowing Martial Study into a game that didn't already have ToB more than reworking a game. I notice that hero point feats don't get the same sort of rating although adding the system in can have the same sort of impact on a "core only" game.



You're forgetting the possibility of two PC casters getting into this together. The biggest thing about this feat isn't the skill bonus, it's allowing two differently built characters to churn out a larger variety of magic items at twice the pace.

They have to have the same item creation feats. If they aren't working together, then they're making the same amount on 2 separate projects instead. 1000 gp/day is still 1000 gp/day.



I didn't know that was on the Magus' spell list, to be honest. But since the Magus is something of a Tier 3/Tier 4 class, do you really think it'd come up often enough to warrant being a Tier 4 or higher feat?

Tough call. I can see the builds that would really like it, and it is a highly restricted quicken.



But does it break the game?

As compared to other things that you're putting in T1? More so, imo. With Dispel Magic being one of the more common spells flying around, to get a guaranteed condition on stripping a single buff is pretty nasty.



Actually, no Arcane Sight doesn't. Neither does it's greater version. This feat literally lets you know what class features they selected.

Ok, I did misread this feat (to think it was even more powerful than it originally showed). Other than witch hexes, it doesn't really tell you all that interesting of information. You know what some of the spell-like powers are, and what a small portion of the spell list is. 3 round concentration means that anyone aware of the existence of this feat can just briskly walk away, in the same way that Detect Magic doesn't really beat Invisibility.



I was looking at it from the angle of Planar Binding and minionmancy in combat. It's nice to be able to only heal your minions in an AOE.

It locks you to one specific elemental outsider, and healing is rarely worth the standard for your real allies or your undead allies. A positive channel is still going to heal your minionmancy allies, making this feat really niche for that purpose.



Which is why I made it tier 2. Does it break the game though or do those spells break the game? Something to ruminate over.

Polymorph already got ripped a new one by the move to Pathfinder. A lot of the neat early tricks (like Alter self for a fly speed or absurd natural armor) are gone. Remember that indirectly through these changes, the Druid got smacked around. The feat now offers a lot of versatility out of any single casting of X Shape or Form of the X spells, as well as polymorph. This was something that a 3.5 caster couldn't readily do outside of Shapechange.



You can put it on a Familiar, it's a familiar feat. I just see bad things coming from it, like word activated custom items.

So if I were going to abuse word-activated custom items, I'd see about using normal item slots first. If that didn't work, I'd remember that cash is a lot less valuable than feats and just make it a slotless item anyways. Is there any abuse you have in mind that aren't custom items, because I don't think feats should be rated around the existence of a Ring of True Strike.

[Tanuki Tales]

I'm willing to argue that the feat does nothing without the extra rules to interact with. This is along the lines of allowing Martial Study into a game that didn't already have ToB more than reworking a game. I notice that hero point feats don't get the same sort of rating although adding the system in can have the same sort of impact on a "core only" game.

I don't have the book, are you telling me that a feat that has Leadership as a prerequisite and improves upon what Leadership does is comparable to Martial Initiating?



They have to have the same item creation feats. If they aren't working together, then they're making the same amount on 2 separate projects instead. 1000 gp/day is still 1000 gp/day.

Reading it over again, the bolded isn't true. The feat says that you need to possess the relevant Craft skill or item creation feat. And it actually doesn't specify how you assist them or that it prevents you from working on your own magic items as well. The more I read this feat, the less I like it.



Tough call. I can see the builds that would really like it, and it is a highly restricted quicken.

Let's keep it where it is then until research shows otherwise.



As compared to other things that you're putting in T1? More so, imo. With Dispel Magic being one of the more common spells flying around, to get a guaranteed condition on stripping a single buff is pretty nasty.

It does begin trivializing encounters even more so. Hm...I see your point.



Ok, I did misread this feat (to think it was even more powerful than it originally showed). Other than witch hexes, it doesn't really tell you all that interesting of information. You know what some of the spell-like powers are, and what a small portion of the spell list is. 3 round concentration means that anyone aware of the existence of this feat can just briskly walk away, in the same way that Detect Magic doesn't really beat Invisibility.

Fair enough.



It locks you to one specific elemental outsider, and healing is rarely worth the standard for your real allies or your undead allies. A positive channel is still going to heal your minionmancy allies, making this feat really niche for that purpose.

It locks you into one elemental subtype for outsiders. And the issue with just relying on the positive is that it also heals your enemies without other feats.



Polymorph already got ripped a new one by the move to Pathfinder. A lot of the neat early tricks (like Alter self for a fly speed or absurd natural armor) are gone. Remember that indirectly through these changes, the Druid got smacked around. The feat now offers a lot of versatility out of any single casting of X Shape or Form of the X spells, as well as polymorph. This was something that a 3.5 caster couldn't readily do outside of Shapechange.

Fair enough.



So if I were going to abuse word-activated custom items, I'd see about using normal item slots first. If that didn't work, I'd remember that cash is a lot less valuable than feats and just make it a slotless item anyways. Is there any abuse you have in mind that aren't custom items, because I don't think feats should be rated around the existence of a Ring of True Strike.

I'll lower it to tier 3, but I definitely want to keep an eye on it.

[Kamai]

I don't have the book, are you telling me that a feat that has Leadership as a prerequisite and improves upon what Leadership does is comparable to Martial Initiating?

In terms of throwing a new subsystem in out of nowhere like you were contending? Yes. In actual power? This feat is about the same as a feat that says "Your cohort automatically succeeds on any Aid another checks to assist you". It's something that comes off a powerful feat, does something kind of helpful, but you do need to decently invest in it (by having a kingdom building worth doubling). I again emphasise that the feat is balanced in the subsystem that it references, and worthless if the subsystem doesn't exist.

Here, again, like with Divination Guide, you're falling into the trap that since it improves a really powerful option, it must also be a really powerful feat.




Reading it over again, the bolded isn't true. The feat says that you need to possess the relevant Craft skill or item creation feat. And it actually doesn't specify how you assist them or that it prevents you from working on your own magic items as well. The more I read this feat, the less I like it.

Ok, yeah, that's a terribly worded feat that's so badly worded because it tries to do too many things at once. However, to be able to get a bonus in crafting, the bonus has to be there throughout the check (I hope I'm not remembering a house rule, here). I would at least rule that the aider would have to be there the whole crafting time, which I'll admit wouldn't do enough to stop double time crafting.

Onwards to some Fs and Gs:
Fast Crawl: I'm hesitant to call this T6 because it's existence weakens even further PC trip lockdown (since someone with this feat could 5ft step then get up in many cases safely.
Familiar Spell: It's a cheaper quicken that asks you to use no save spells, or on the other side, it's an incredibly smart contingency. I could see packing a Familiar Spell with Invisibility or Dimension Door without having a second thought. I could see this being T2.
Fast Empathy: It's a Diplomacy check that's actually incredibly hard to boost and is also rather niche. A Diplomacy version of this is very likely T2, but this version isn't giving enough to a bad class feature, probably leaving it at T4.
All of the T1 F feats: I think we get it. You don't think the Kingdom Building rules and the Downtime Rules have any use in D&D. Marking every one of these feats on the same cost as leadership doesn't do anyone any favors who wish to play with these rules.

Gunslinger: While I'll contend that this should be a gunslinger class feature also, you can use your ranged weapon in melee, which is a stronger feat than you give it credit for.
Godless Healing: Because a feat slot is more expensive than a wand of CLW. Since it's a move action, martial isn't going to be able to use this and full attack, and casters have better uses for their feats. This is T4 at best.
Greater Wild Empathy: Or you can just put skill ranks into Diplomacy. Diplomacy is in fact easier to boost than Wild Empathy. Sure, it's hard to Diplomacy non-intelligent vermin/plants, but I wonder if that should have just been part of Wild Empathy from the start.

Harmonic Spell: The interesting part is that any round that a spell is cast doesn't count as a performance round. I contend that that part should be a feat, and not part of the rules, and that this should be at least a T4 feat due to being an Extra Performance that scales.

Ok, I'm going to stop at Hs for now.

[Tanuki Tales]

In terms of throwing a new subsystem in out of nowhere like you were contending? Yes. In actual power? This feat is about the same as a feat that says "Your cohort automatically succeeds on any Aid another checks to assist you". It's something that comes off a powerful feat, does something kind of helpful, but you do need to decently invest in it (by having a kingdom building worth doubling). I again emphasise that the feat is balanced in the subsystem that it references, and worthless if the subsystem doesn't exist.

Here, again, like with Divination Guide, you're falling into the trap that since it improves a really powerful option, it must also be a really powerful feat.

But in the case where the subsystem is being used for the benefit of a minority of the party, isn't being used by the rest of the party or the GM isn't prepared for it?





Ok, yeah, that's a terribly worded feat that's so badly worded because it tries to do too many things at once. However, to be able to get a bonus in crafting, the bonus has to be there throughout the check (I hope I'm not remembering a house rule, here). I would at least rule that the aider would have to be there the whole crafting time, which I'll admit wouldn't do enough to stop double time crafting.

How about we say it's tier 2 and wait for further playtest evidence to show otherwise?


Fast Crawl: I'm hesitant to call this T6 because it's existence weakens even further PC trip lockdown (since someone with this feat could 5ft step then get up in many cases safely.

You can't 5ft step and stand up in the same round though, since standing up is considered movement. So, how exactly does this weaken trip builds?


Familiar Spell: It's a cheaper quicken that asks you to use no save spells, or on the other side, it's an incredibly smart contingency. I could see packing a Familiar Spell with Invisibility or Dimension Door without having a second thought. I could see this being T2.

Tier 2 it is.


Fast Empathy: It's a Diplomacy check that's actually incredibly hard to boost and is also rather niche. A Diplomacy version of this is very likely T2, but this version isn't giving enough to a bad class feature, probably leaving it at T4.

Is Wild Empathy really that terrible though? If memory serves, some particularly nasty commoner builds revolved around using Handle Animal and this class feature is that beefed up.


All of the T1 F feats: I think we get it. You don't think the Kingdom Building rules and the Downtime Rules have any use in D&D. Marking every one of these feats on the same cost as leadership doesn't do anyone any favors who wish to play with these rules.

Then can you outline the exact ramification of these feats if the subsystem is introduced?


Gunslinger: While I'll contend that this should be a gunslinger class feature also, you can use your ranged weapon in melee, which is a stronger feat than you give it credit for.

Actually, it only applies to firearms. And even if it did work on all ranged weapons, why would you take this over Point Blank Shot?


Godless Healing: Because a feat slot is more expensive than a wand of CLW. Since it's a move action, martial isn't going to be able to use this and full attack, and casters have better uses for their feats. This is T4 at best.

Hm...you're right. 315 gold is cheaper than a feat slot.


Greater Wild Empathy: Or you can just put skill ranks into Diplomacy. Diplomacy is in fact easier to boost than Wild Empathy. Sure, it's hard to Diplomacy non-intelligent vermin/plants, but I wonder if that should have just been part of Wild Empathy from the start.

Well, to use Diplomacy would require also being able to speak the specific language of those fey and elementals. But I do agree that plants and vermin should be part of the class feature in the first place. What tier do you feel this is then?


Harmonic Spell: The interesting part is that any round that a spell is cast doesn't count as a performance round. I contend that that part should be a feat, and not part of the rules, and that this should be at least a T4 feat due to being an Extra Performance that scales.

I feel like Bardic Music go undeservedly nerfed through the floor, which is why I feel like what the feat does should be an inherent part of the Bardic Music/Bardic Spellcasting interaction.

[Kamai]

But in the case where the subsystem is being used for the benefit of a minority of the party, isn't being used by the rest of the party or the GM isn't prepared for it?

I'm not sure how you sneak in kingdom building rules. Given the in-game manpower that it takes, either the group is accepting some amount of time devoted to things alone, or the group is in kingdom building as a whole. The feat can't be sneaked in because if the kingdom building rules aren't in play, there's exactly nothing for it to interact with without DM input.
There are dangerous parts of the kingdom building rules, and this feat interacts with exactly none of them.



How about we say it's tier 2 and wait for further playtest evidence to show otherwise?

Yeah, I can agree with that.



You can't 5ft step and stand up in the same round though, since standing up is considered movement. So, how exactly does this weaken trip builds?

I was under the assumption that standing up was a non-movement move action. I'll say I was wrong and leave it at T6.



Is Wild Empathy really that terrible though? If memory serves, some particularly nasty commoner builds revolved around using Handle Animal and this class feature is that beefed up.

Is there anything that could be done in the build that wouldn't be done at least as well with Speak with Animals and Diplomacy?



Then can you outline the exact ramification of these feats if the subsystem is introduced?

Focused Worker is actually probably as dangerous as you first listed. After rereading the downtime rules, I noticed that you can use capital to permanently hire low-level casters. This does let you create a specific type of capital that your business is having trouble producing a lot faster (treat this as +10-+20 to a skill check for downtime). If you couldn't hire people, this would be a solid T3 feat.
Focused Manager doesn't actually reduce costs in a meaningful manner. I would call this T2, because it does help access a really dangerous resource, but nowhere on the level of Focused Worker.

Fortunate Manager/Ruler essentially lets you reroll one roll that happens about once every 2 game months. You can dodge some nasty consequences, but it's not like you can ready the business/kingdom against these events before they happen. It sounds pretty T5 to me, if not T6.



Actually, it only applies to firearms. And even if it did work on all ranged weapons, why would you take this over Point Blank Shot?

It doesn't have the Fighter 4 requirement through Weapon Specialization, assuming you're talking about Point Blank Master. If you really meant Point Blank Shot, this feat is essentially "Your gun is now a melee weapon that keeps it's range. There is no penalty for using this as a melee weapon." On top of this, guns already want to be within charge range, so they can hit Touch AC. Now, you can still fight if you actually get charged.



Well, to use Diplomacy would require also being able to speak the specific language of those fey and elementals. But I do agree that plants and vermin should be part of the class feature in the first place. What tier do you feel this is then?

This feat is strictly outdone by Diplomacy + Linguistics against the intelligent creatures. Against the non-intelligent creatures, it should be part of Wild Empathy rules. Most feats like that you've marked as T5.

Edit: Let's do I's and J's while I can't sleep:
Improved Day Job: From what I can parse, this is strictly a PFS rule, using what's usually a profession, craft, or perform to earn a little gold between sessions. I couldn't tell you about gold flow in PFS, but if the rules were adapted to an ordinary game, this feat would be T6 (a even more niche Skill Focus in a non-adventuring skill).
Improved Stonecutting: It's a +2 bonus on a subset of a skill. If Skill Focus is T5, this skill should not be above T5.
Improved Familiar: A lot of these familiars can actually interact with magic items. Familiars borrow your ranks in UMD. I hope you see where this is going (besides a T2 feat).
Improved Fiendish Sorcery: What you see as a powerful feat I see as a tax. Fiendish Sorcery (the Tiefling feature) is supposed to compensate for an appropriate Tiefling's -2 Charisma. This absolutely should not be a feat, let alone a T2 feat. This should be an alternate racial feature.
Inspirational Commander: Keeping in mind that this feat only interacts with mass combat rules, my first inclination would put this feat at T3. It expands the options in the army along the same lines that a good 3.5 Tactical Feat would for the player. I can't see any boon option that outright breaks mass combat.

I don't see any Js that I object to. If I wanted to take a shot at Ks (since it's also short):
Keen Scent: T4. It's a really nice feature, but it's a pain to pinpoint with scent, and scent's short range is more annoying on a PC then a NPC guarding something.
Ki Stand: T5. Monk.
Knockout Strike: T5. The fact that it has to be an Unarmed Strike, and not just any non-lethal attack, and that you can't get this damage too reliably (flanking is out for this extra damage) makes this feat too limiting.

[Don't worry, I'm having fun with all of this.]

[Tanuki Tales]

I'll get back on this project by tomorrow at the earliest. I have a lot of chaos to deal with in my contest thread and a decent homework load this week.

[Tanuki Tales]

Is there anything that could be done in the build that wouldn't be done at least as well with Speak with Animals and Diplomacy?

Speak with Animals doesn't apply to Magical Beast is what comes to mind.



Focused Worker is actually probably as dangerous as you first listed. After rereading the downtime rules, I noticed that you can use capital to permanently hire low-level casters. This does let you create a specific type of capital that your business is having trouble producing a lot faster (treat this as +10-+20 to a skill check for downtime). If you couldn't hire people, this would be a solid T3 feat.
Focused Manager doesn't actually reduce costs in a meaningful manner. I would call this T2, because it does help access a really dangerous resource, but nowhere on the level of Focused Worker.

Fortunate Manager/Ruler essentially lets you reroll one roll that happens about once every 2 game months. You can dodge some nasty consequences, but it's not like you can ready the business/kingdom against these events before they happen. It sounds pretty T5 to me, if not T6.

Alrighty.



It doesn't have the Fighter 4 requirement through Weapon Specialization, assuming you're talking about Point Blank Master. If you really meant Point Blank Shot, this feat is essentially "Your gun is now a melee weapon that keeps it's range. There is no penalty for using this as a melee weapon." On top of this, guns already want to be within charge range, so they can hit Touch AC. Now, you can still fight if you actually get charged.

I must be misremembering Point Blank Shot then. Would this really be more than tier 4?



This feat is strictly outdone by Diplomacy + Linguistics against the intelligent creatures. Against the non-intelligent creatures, it should be part of Wild Empathy rules. Most feats like that you've marked as T5.

Fair enough.


Improved Day Job: From what I can parse, this is strictly a PFS rule, using what's usually a profession, craft, or perform to earn a little gold between sessions. I couldn't tell you about gold flow in PFS, but if the rules were adapted to an ordinary game, this feat would be T6 (a even more niche Skill Focus in a non-adventuring skill).

Alrighty.


Improved Stonecutting: It's a +2 bonus on a subset of a skill. If Skill Focus is T5, this skill should not be above T5.

My bad, I misread it as +4 on top of the +2 for +6.


Improved Familiar: A lot of these familiars can actually interact with magic items. Familiars borrow your ranks in UMD. I hope you see where this is going (besides a T2 feat).

I...don't know what I was thinking. Some of those Improved Familiars can be broken.


Improved Fiendish Sorcery: What you see as a powerful feat I see as a tax. Fiendish Sorcery (the Tiefling feature) is supposed to compensate for an appropriate Tiefling's -2 Charisma. This absolutely should not be a feat, let alone a T2 feat. This should be an alternate racial feature.

While this should be an alternate racial trait, keep in mind that the project made Fiendish Heritage a Tier 5 feat. So if they grab Fiendish Heritage and change to something like Rakshasa, they switch out that Charisma penalty for a bonus.


Inspirational Commander: Keeping in mind that this feat only interacts with mass combat rules, my first inclination would put this feat at T3. It expands the options in the army along the same lines that a good 3.5 Tactical Feat would for the player. I can't see any boon option that outright breaks mass combat.

What kind of boons does the feat give?



[Don't worry, I'm having fun with all of this.]

Glad to hear. :smallsmile:


Edit:


Here are the Ks and Ls in the meantime.


Tier 6
Leaf Singer - Really niche.
Letter Fury - Really niche.
Life-Dominant Soul - I don't see how this makes your character better.
Lithe Attacker - Players can't take this nine times out of ten.
Lucky Halfling - A once per day +1 to a saving throw? I can't make this tier 5, because it's objectively worse than the other save boosters.


Tier 5

Ki Stand - Monks.
Knockout Artist - Bad feat is bad.
Leaping Shot Deed - Why isn't this a normal deed? The prerequisites are also steep.
Learn Ranger Trap - I was informed that these suck.
Legacy of Heroes - This is almost worse than Weapon Focus and may actually just be worse.
Life Lure - Niche feat.
Lightning Reflexes - Bad feat is bad.
Light Step - Kind of useful, but its at the end of a feat chain that invalidates the previous feats. I think I might just make it Tier 6 for that reason.



Tier 4

Keen Scent - Scent is nice, but not amazing.
Lingering Performance - This doesn't last for enough rounds.



Tier 3
Luck of Heroes - This feat is pretty cool.


Tier 1
Leadership - This broken monster is the reason we're doing this entire project. Even splitting this feat into two different feats might not be enough balance.

[Kamai]

I must be misremembering Point Blank Shot then. Would this really be more than tier 4?

Even with being able to attack touch AC? Probably high T4 at best. If 3.5 style Power Attack existed as Deadly Aim, this could be low T3.



While this should be an alternate racial trait, keep in mind that the project made Fiendish Heritage a Tier 5 feat. So if they grab Fiendish Heritage and change to something like Rakshasa, they switch out that Charisma penalty for a bonus.

I see where you're coming from.



What kind of boons does the feat give?

So a lot of the boons are situational (but good) modifiers to particular checks. Checks for damage, checks for morale, checks for defense, that sort of thing. One of the boons are "Your army always has a chosen tactic" which made it really feel like a tactical feat.


Cautious Combat: Your army fights cautiously in order to maintain morale. Decrease its OM by 2, and add 2 to all its Morale checks.

Cavalry Experts: Your army's OM increases by 2 against armies that aren't mounted. The army must have the mount resource to use this tactic.

Defensive Wall: Your army fights defensively, taking actions to protect fellow units as needed. Decrease its OM by 2, and increase its DV by 2.

Dirty Fighters: Your army uses trickery and unfair tactics to gain an advantage at the start of a battle. For one Melee phase this battle, its OM increases by 6. (After that Melee phase, the opposing army knows to be ready for such tricks.)

Expert Flankers: Your army is skilled at surrounding the foe and distracting them, at the cost of spreading out too much and being more vulnerable. Increase its OM by 2, and decrease its DV by 2.

False Retreat: Once per battle, your army can make a false retreat, luring a target enemy army deeper into your territory. On the phase your army makes a false retreat, it doesn't attempt an Offense check. On the phase after it uses this tactic, increase its OM and DV by 6 against the target army.

Full Defense: Your army focuses on total defense of the battlefield. Increase its DV by 4, and decrease its OM by 4.

Relentless Brutality: Your army throws caution to the wind and attacks with savage and gory vigor. Increase its OM by 4, and decrease its DV by 4.

Siegebreaker: Your army targets another army's siege engines in an attempt to destroy them. If your army damages the target army, your army attempts a second Offense check; if successful, destroy one of the target's siege engines. This tactic has no effect on enemy armies without siege engines.

Sniper Support: Your army holds some ranged units in reserve to attack a target enemy army during the Melee phase. If your army damages the target army in the Melee phase, it deals 2 additional points of damage from these ranged attacks. The army must have ranged attacks to use this tactic.

Spellbreaker: Your army has specialists who can disrupt enemy spellcasting. Increase its DV by 4 against armies with the spellcasting ability.

Taunt: Your army is skilled at taunting its opponents, provoking stupid mistakes and overconfidence in battle. The target army must attempt a Morale check (DC = 10 + your army's ACR) at the start of each Melee or Ranged phase; failure means it reduces its OM and DV against your army by 2 for that phase. If the target army succeeds at two of these Morale checks, it's immune to this tactic for the remainder of the battle.

For the most part, assume that OM are harder to boost attack bonuses, DV is AC, and ACR is the Challenge Rating/Effective Level of the army.

Now for the new feats:
Letter Fury: I just want to express how sad it makes me that this feat is terrible given just how Pathfinder Goblin it is.
Life Dominant Soul: The Damphir gets ruined by positive energy normally. Feat isn't a general pick, but I think it's pretty amazing in it's niche (allied channel energy spam).
Lithe Attacker: PCs can't use this. Their large Eidolons and Animal Companions sure can, though. I think it needs to be evaluated with respect to them.
Lucky Halfling: Reread it. It's roll twice, take better on one allied save/day. Even better than that if it's an ally's weak save and your strong save. Still probably only T5. If this were Cha mod times/day or even 3/day, I'd be happy to call it high T4.

Because I'm really interested in keeping this going, I'm going to get as far as I can on Metamagic feats. These ratings, however, assume that the cost of any metamagic reducers are already paid by the reducer. Thus, all feats are evaluated by their original spell level adjustment, and not by their strength in a metamagic rod.

Tier 6
Burning Spell: It may have a niche in weak caster disruption, but otherwise compare to Empower Spell.
Widen Spell: Extremely expensive. Often makes spells harder to use without friendly fire.

Tier 5
Echoing Spell: This is a really high cost for splitting a spell slot down. On top of it, it has to be the same spell.
Heighten Spell: Prepared casters just want to use the next level up spells. Spontaneous casters can get a little use out of this to make their spells be relevant longer.
Selective Spell: It should have 1 of Spellcraft 10 ranks or a +1 adjustment, not both.
Silent Spell: Niche, but rather powerful in it's niche.
Still Spell: See Silent Spell.


Tier 4
Concussive Spell: This ties well with a Sonic spell that does damage plus an effect. Probably not worth +2 on a pure damage sonic spell.
Elemental Spell: Useful effect. However, 3.5s version of this feat was at about the right power (+0, choose on preparation).
Empower Spell: This is what makes the case for Evocation specific metamagic reducers for me.
Flaring Spell: Dazzle is such a weak condition. It's only T4 because it's practically a no-save effect.
Intensify Spell: I don't remember this having a lot of utility outside of Evocation spells. The strength of this feat is linked to the strength of Evocation spells.
Jinxed Spell: Really cool but really feat intensive.
Maximize Spell: Strong, but too high cost for a lot of spells.
Shadow Grasp: Docked compared to Rime Spell for feat requirements and fail on saving throw.
Threatening Illusion: More appropriate as an archetype feature than a +1 metamagic.
Thundering Spell: Too expensive compared to Disruptive Spell.
Toppling Spell: Would have been safe to put as an always on feat instead of a +1 metamagic feat, especially with the restriction to force spells.

Tier 3
Coaxing Spell: Probably at just about the right power for ignoring immunities. Not sure if spontaneous casters pay enough for this effect, though.
Consecrate Spell: Again, love it. Just the right tradeoff for a bane effect.
Ectoplasmic Spell: Another nice "bane" effect.
Enlarge Spell: This is awkward to use on long range spells, but really nice at other ranges.
Extend Spell: A fair benchmark for balance.
Focused Spell: It's -1 to your Save DC to get a overall +1 against 1 creature.
Lingering Spell: While useful for other spells, it's a boost that Evocation needed.
Merciful Spell: It's good that Paizo understood that sometimes that it's enough to charge the feat slot.
Piercing Spell: Sounds like a fair trade to me.
Rime Spell: About what +1 should be.
Threnodic Spell: See coaxing spell.
Umbral Spell: This rating assume that 1 target/level spells are affected by it. Combines very well with darkvision and mass buffs.

Tier 2
Bouncing Spell: Redirect and try again is a pretty powerful effect at +1. This is only really limited by being restricted to Save:None spells.
Disruptive Spell: I think this drives caster vs caster to be even more rocket-taggy.
Reach Spell: Probably a weak T2, but Touch to Close probably should be +2, not +1.
Sickening Spell: Turns every spell that does even a point of damage to be a setup spell for anything else. Probably gets scary with natively swift action spells and damaging spells with a duration.
Tenebrous Spell: Only because it has a good subset of feats where it costs +0. There had to been another way to get the synergy.
Thanatopic Spell: I really don't like it saying no to other spell immunities.

Tier 1
Persistent Spell: Roll twice, take worst is really nasty. Stack it with any of the other fun metamagics (or a true control spell) and you're getting more than your +2's worth.
Quicken Spell: This feat warps game balance at full cost, let alone with anything else.

[Tanuki Tales]

Even with being able to attack touch AC? Probably high T4 at best. If 3.5 style Power Attack existed as Deadly Aim, this could be low T3.

Alrighty.


So a lot of the boons are situational (but good) modifiers to particular checks. Checks for damage, checks for morale, checks for defense, that sort of thing. One of the boons are "Your army always has a chosen tactic" which made it really feel like a tactical feat.


Cautious Combat: Your army fights cautiously in order to maintain morale. Decrease its OM by 2, and add 2 to all its Morale checks.

Cavalry Experts: Your army's OM increases by 2 against armies that aren't mounted. The army must have the mount resource to use this tactic.

Defensive Wall: Your army fights defensively, taking actions to protect fellow units as needed. Decrease its OM by 2, and increase its DV by 2.

Dirty Fighters: Your army uses trickery and unfair tactics to gain an advantage at the start of a battle. For one Melee phase this battle, its OM increases by 6. (After that Melee phase, the opposing army knows to be ready for such tricks.)

Expert Flankers: Your army is skilled at surrounding the foe and distracting them, at the cost of spreading out too much and being more vulnerable. Increase its OM by 2, and decrease its DV by 2.

False Retreat: Once per battle, your army can make a false retreat, luring a target enemy army deeper into your territory. On the phase your army makes a false retreat, it doesn't attempt an Offense check. On the phase after it uses this tactic, increase its OM and DV by 6 against the target army.

Full Defense: Your army focuses on total defense of the battlefield. Increase its DV by 4, and decrease its OM by 4.

Relentless Brutality: Your army throws caution to the wind and attacks with savage and gory vigor. Increase its OM by 4, and decrease its DV by 4.

Siegebreaker: Your army targets another army's siege engines in an attempt to destroy them. If your army damages the target army, your army attempts a second Offense check; if successful, destroy one of the target's siege engines. This tactic has no effect on enemy armies without siege engines.

Sniper Support: Your army holds some ranged units in reserve to attack a target enemy army during the Melee phase. If your army damages the target army in the Melee phase, it deals 2 additional points of damage from these ranged attacks. The army must have ranged attacks to use this tactic.

Spellbreaker: Your army has specialists who can disrupt enemy spellcasting. Increase its DV by 4 against armies with the spellcasting ability.

Taunt: Your army is skilled at taunting its opponents, provoking stupid mistakes and overconfidence in battle. The target army must attempt a Morale check (DC = 10 + your army's ACR) at the start of each Melee or Ranged phase; failure means it reduces its OM and DV against your army by 2 for that phase. If the target army succeeds at two of these Morale checks, it's immune to this tactic for the remainder of the battle.

For the most part, assume that OM are harder to boost attack bonuses, DV is AC, and ACR is the Challenge Rating/Effective Level of the army.

Tier 3 it is.


Life Dominant Soul: The Damphir gets ruined by positive energy normally. Feat isn't a general pick, but I think it's pretty amazing in it's niche (allied channel energy spam).

Check the wording though. To get half healing from positive energy, they also lose half healing from negative energy. I just don't see how they makes them objectively better.


Lithe Attacker: PCs can't use this. Their large Eidolons and Animal Companions sure can, though. I think it needs to be evaluated with respect to them.

Eidolons can't, as they're Outsiders and it seems really niche for animal companions and intensive on their resources (before this system is introduced). I wouldn't put it above tier 5.


Lucky Halfling: Reread it. It's roll twice, take better on one allied save/day. Even better than that if it's an ally's weak save and your strong save. Still probably only T5. If this were Cha mod times/day or even 3/day, I'd be happy to call it high T4.

But your Halfling could also roll less and thus this feat was completely wasted. It's just a huge gamble for a low payout.


Burning Spell: It may have a niche in weak caster disruption, but otherwise compare to Empower Spell.

I don't think I can really easily call any Metamagic feat tier 6. 2 to 18 damage may be worthless, but I don't know if it's tier 6 worthless.


Widen Spell: Extremely expensive. Often makes spells harder to use without friendly fire.

Again, I'm very gun-shy of labeling any Metamagic as tier 6. Widen Spell is definitely a crap metamagic though.


Echoing Spell: This is a really high cost for splitting a spell slot down. On top of it, it has to be the same spell.

While somewhat useful, I'd rather buy a Pearl of Power first. So I agree with it being tier 5.


Heighten Spell: Prepared casters just want to use the next level up spells. Spontaneous casters can get a little use out of this to make their spells be relevant longer.

I know there are uses for Heighten spell and good ones, I just can't remember them. So...tier 5.


Selective Spell: It should have 1 of Spellcraft 10 ranks or a +1 adjustment, not both.

Huh?


Silent Spell: Niche, but rather powerful in it's niche.
Still Spell: See Silent Spell.

I think this should make them tier 4 at the very least. You ranked these without metamagic reducers in mind, but those do exist, which makes me wonder if we shouldn't be overly conservative with low adjustment metamagic feats.


Intensify Spell: I don't remember this having a lot of utility outside of Evocation spells. The strength of this feat is linked to the strength of Evocation spells.

It can definitely make Evocation spells better. Definitely a candidate for metamagic reducers, but we'll call it tier 4 for now.


Jinxed Spell: Really cool but really feat intensive.

Halfling Jinx is turning out to be the best racial trait since the Human bonus feat though. :P


Shadow Grasp: Docked compared to Rime Spell for feat requirements and fail on saving throw.

It'd be nice on a Darkness spell, but its feat requirements do make this rather niche.


Toppling Spell: Would have been safe to put as an always on feat instead of a +1 metamagic feat, especially with the restriction to force spells.

Here's where I severely disagree. I saw a particularly nasty Sorcerer build where this metamagic ended up creating an uber combo that nothing printed in the game could save against (I believe it was called Geyser tripping or something like that). This is tier 2.


Coaxing Spell: Probably at just about the right power for ignoring immunities. Not sure if spontaneous casters pay enough for this effect, though.

See, I feel like this is tier 4 or 5, just because it only applies to vermin and oozes, nothing else.


Lingering Spell: While useful for other spells, it's a boost that Evocation needed.

I see its use coming from illusion spells as cover honestly.


Rime Spell: About what +1 should be.

This feat adds a good debuff without any kind of save involved though. Shouldn't this be tier 2?


Threnodic Spell: See coaxing spell.

This is seriously better than coaxing spell, but belongs in tier 3.


Disruptive Spell: I think this drives caster vs caster to be even more rocket-taggy.

I'm not convinced that the increase to the Concentration check is enough to make this metamagic matter. Casters already made Concentration checks a trivial thing.


Reach Spell: Probably a weak T2, but Touch to Close probably should be +2, not +1.

Agreed.


Sickening Spell: Turns every spell that does even a point of damage to be a setup spell for anything else. Probably gets scary with natively swift action spells and damaging spells with a duration.

Sickened isn't that great a debuff, so I think you might be over-valuing this feat.


Thanatopic Spell: I really don't like it saying no to other spell immunities.

I have to disagree with you on this one. I'm not a fan of spells that say flat "no" to things, instead of just providing bonuses to saves and such (like how they changed Freedom of Movement). I feel this should be tier 3.

[Kamai]

But your Halfling could also roll less and thus this feat was completely wasted. It's just a huge gamble for a low payout.

This isn't any more of a gamble than any other reroll feat. He gets to see both die rolls, and chooses one.



I don't think I can really easily call any Metamagic feat tier 6. 2 to 18 damage may be worthless, but I don't know if it's tier 6 worthless.

Can you think of any spell where you can use this, and you'd rather have the 2-18 damage over a spell 1 level higher?





Huh?

I think it's overcosted for having both the skill and the +1 spell level requirement.



I think this should make them tier 4 at the very least. You ranked these without metamagic reducers in mind, but those do exist, which makes me wonder if we shouldn't be overly conservative with low adjustment metamagic feats.

I still think it's the metamagic reducers that should have the high tiers (or even cost some feat points if it comes as a trait or class feature), not necessarily the Metamagic itself. Otherwise, you risk making metamagic feats too build intensive without grabbing the reducers it's balanced around.



Here's where I severely disagree. I saw a particularly nasty Sorcerer build where this metamagic ended up creating an uber combo that nothing printed in the game could save against (I believe it was called Geyser tripping or something like that). This is tier 2.

I forgot completely about that. Yeah, Tier 2.



See, I feel like this is tier 4 or 5, just because it only applies to vermin and oozes, nothing else.

That's fair. I guess I'm getting a little gun shy on immunity breakers.



I see its use coming from illusion spells as cover honestly.

Not that it matters for the tiering, but it gives the concealment no matter what spell you put down. It's going to be best on spells that do something nasty and gone.



This feat adds a good debuff without any kind of save involved though. Shouldn't this be tier 2?

Yeah, was undervaluing entangled as a standalone condition.



I'm not convinced that the increase to the Concentration check is enough to make this metamagic matter. Casters already made Concentration checks a trivial thing.

I thought it was a lot harder to trivialize Concentration checks, but yeah, this doesn't scale as fast as I thought.



Sickened isn't that great a debuff, so I think you might be over-valuing this feat.

Right. I also misread it as being on damage instead of on failed save. Maybe was also overvaluing -2 on Saves.



I have to disagree with you on this one. I'm not a fan of spells that say flat "no" to things, instead of just providing bonuses to saves and such (like how they changed Freedom of Movement). I feel this should be tier 3.

When I was writing it up, I was imaging the whole chain of immunities, anti-immunities, and immunities to the anti-immunities, which I think is horrific design. I see your point with Pathfinder turning most Save or Die into Save or hurt.

[Tanuki Tales]

This isn't any more of a gamble than any other reroll feat. He gets to see both die rolls, and chooses one.

We'll make it tier 4 like the others then and see where it goes.



Can you think of any spell where you can use this, and you'd rather have the 2-18 damage over a spell 1 level higher?

Eh...not really. Tier 6 until we see evidence to the otherwise.


I think it's overcosted for having both the skill and the +1 spell level requirement.

Ah.



I still think it's the metamagic reducers that should have the high tiers (or even cost some feat points if it comes as a trait or class feature), not necessarily the Metamagic itself. Otherwise, you risk making metamagic feats too build intensive without grabbing the reducers it's balanced around.

Aren't the reducers mostly traits in Pathfinder though?


I've gotten the Gs through Ls on the list, Ms through Ps up and I'll add the Metamagics before doing my tiering for the Ms.


Edit:

Here are the Ms!

Tier 6
Master of Falconry - Really niche.
Master of Wonders - Really niche.
Master of Your Kind - Niche and can't be taken by players. Probably tier 5 for familiars.
Narrow Frame - Can't be taken by PCs and niche either way.
Ostentatious Display - This feat is just trash.
Pass for Human - Niche.
Potent Holy Symbol - Vampires didn't need this used against them. Niche.
Precocious Youth - So bad.
Razortusk - I's can haz bite attk?! Seriously though, 1d4 damage? So niche.
Reject Poison - Really niche.
Revered Guidance - So niche.
Rugged Northerner - Another crap environment feat.


Tier 5

Mark of Evil - Really niche.
Master Alchemist - This would be really useful if Alchemical items and most poisons weren't meh.
Meditation Master - Bad feat is bad.
Meditative Concentration - Casters aren't taking this.
Merciless Rush - This should be a part of the rules.
Monstrous Mask - Niche, but it applies to the vast majority of encountered creatures and is a big bonus.
Mystic Stride - Niche.
Named Bullet (Grit) - Like most of the Grit feats so far, this should have been a normal deed. This is a kind of neat feat otherwise.
Nature Soul - Bad feat is bad.
Nimble Moves - Meh feat and it gets completely invalidated down its chain.
No Name (Grit) - Bad deed is bad.
Oracular Intuition - Eh, it's meh.
Persuasive - Meh feat is meh.
Phalanx Fighter (Teamwork) - Teamwork feats are bad.
Planar Hunter - Kind of niche, but neat.
Practiced Tactician - Teamwork feats are bad.
Prdoigy - Meh feat.
Pure Faith - So incredibly niche.
Quick Preparation - Might be tier 6. I've never seen that rule strictly enforced and it's one I've never even used as a GM.
Raging Brutality - Why is this gained so late?
Raging Hurler - Why yes, just tossing away my weapon is a smart idea!
Raging Throw - Niche and feat intensive.
Resilient Eidolon - Bad feat is bad.
Reward of Grace - Hey! Look! Another Weapon Focus feat!
Ricochet Shot Deed (Grit) - Gunslingers should just normally be able to do this. It's a freaking class cliche!
Ricochet Splash Weapon - Niche.
Righteous Healing - Bad feat is bad.
Run - There is no solid mechanical benefit to having a high movement speed. This may just be tier 6.



Tier 4

Magical Aptitude - I'm tempted to make this tier 3, as those two skills are two of the best in the game.
Master of the Ledger - Hey, somewhere my accounting classes come in useful! Even assuming you always get heads, this compounding interest only turns into ~1455 gold after one in-game year. While that is a ~146% return on investment, you'd honestly be better just adventuring and dungeon crawling. This should probably be part of the rules.
Maximized Spellstrike - Please inform me if this feat is better than it sounds.
Menacing Bane - Useful, but not terribly so. Especially with the arbitrary limitation on Double Bane.
Merciful Bane - Useful, but not terribly so.
Minotaur's Charge - See above.
Moonlight Summons - Kind of niche, kind of useful, still a buff to conjuration that isn't needed. I definitely have fluff ideas for its use though for a race from one of my contests.
Necromatic Affinity - Useful, but not tier 3 useful.
Nimble Natural Summons - See Moonlight.
Peshish Magic - I'm amused by this feat. Depending on those spells that get added, this feat might be tier 3.
Powerful Shape - Eh, not that great a feat. Might be tier 3.
Protector's Strike - Decent feat and an interesting one.
Quick Channel - Useful, but not terribly so.
Quick Shape - See above.
Radiant Charge - See above.
Remote Bomb - See above.
Reward of Life - See above.
Rhetorical Flourish - This should be part of the rules.



Tier 3
Malicious Eye - Decent feat.
Natural Ruler - I'm making this tier 3 until Kam says otherwise.
Noble Scion - Scion of Peace and Scion of War.
Ordered Mind - Decent feat.
Painful Anchor - Decent feat.
Pantheistic Blessing - No clue what this feat does.
Planar Wild Shape - I was having Planar Shepherd flashbacks there for a minute! Decent feat.
Practiced Leadership - Pity this feat will never see use, ever. This actually makes Teamwork feats useful.
Prophetic Visionary - Decent feat.
Raging Deathblow - Helloooo bag o' rats!
Raging Vitality - It was stupid of them to make rage end when unconscious in the first place.
Renown - No clue what this feat does.



Tier 2
Mage's Tattoo - Caster level bump to a whole school, stacks with its prereq and gets some minor utility in the form of a cantrip.
Master Craftsmen - This feat treads dangerous water.
Parry Spell - And you get a free Spell Turning!
Peacemaker - I don't like how vaguely worded this feat is.
Planar Preservationist - Summoning is king.


Tier 1
Major Spell Expertise - No.
Minor Spell Expertise - Blood Money.
Natural Spell - Wildshape got nerfed, but this feat is still too good.
Planned Spontaneity - No.
Preferred Spell - No.


Edit Edit:

Ns, Os, and Ps added.

Edit Edit Edit:

Qs and Rs added.

[Tanuki Tales]

Qs and Rs added to the To Do list.

[Kamai]

Yay more feats:
Master Craftsman: I really don't see how giving non magic users access to magic item crafting is treading dangerous water. This is not T2 because the feat does very little without taking another feat, and still only gives the craftsman access to one feat. On top of this, the craftsman is going to have a harder time making these items than Sir Wizard Spellcraft. This is T3 at best, and if I were doing this system, I'd even mark it as T4 not due to power level but due to helping the balance of the game.
Minor Spell Expertise: You don't get access to this feat until 1st level spells are starting to get phased out. This dedicates these spells to one spell for the rest of the career. How often do you see Wizards getting Rings of Wizardry I? With all of this in mind, I think it's high T3 at best.
Major Spell Expertise: I don't have as strong of a case for this, but when you have 9ths, how often are your 5th level slots going to be pressured? This one is probably T2.
Nimble Moves: I feel like 5ft step through difficult terrain is stronger than you give it credit for, but I'm not sure I can make a good enough case for it.
Natural Ruler: I only hesitate to put it at T5 because it can self stack the stability bonus. This is otherwise really no better than a +2/+2 skill feat. Unless you have a more elegant solution to self-stacking feats that can get out of control, T4.
Practiced Tactician: I know there are bad teamwork feats, but I thought the reason teamwork feats were low tier because of their absurd cost. Tactician gets rid of the 2 feat slot+ cost, and more uses of that could make the iffy feats a lot better. This sounds T4 to me.
Planar Wild Shape: Getting Smite Evil/Good on every Wild shape seems to say screw you Paladin. I don't know if this means that it should be T2, but I don't like it.
Parry Spell: I feel like you're underestimating how bad Counterspelling really is. I think this is at best T3, because it still has the requirements of spending a standard action, and either having the right spell, spell slots at a higher level than the target, or a ~50/50 dispel magic.
Quick Preparation: Even if it's played by the book, you may have one time in a full adventure that taking 30 minutes less to prep is useful. Definitely T6.
Quick Wild Shape: Even if the Druid messes up, you can't catch them in a suboptimal form? Seems a bit too strong for T4.
Razor Tusk Attack: I can has Sneak Attack bite, though I do admit that it scales very poorly for Sneak Attack builds and Polearm lockdown builds. I suspect that it's T5 because of that.
Resilient Eidolon: Assuming you're in a group that enforces the eidolon dismissing on you going down, this actually ensures that you don't get ruined in early levels by a Sleep spell (because you can't resummon the Eidolon), and even in later levels, things will go bad except in super high op. I think this is T4 unless you want to make the claim that it should just be in the rules.
Radiant Charge: You're burning a powerful resource (Swift action LoH + mercies) for a really weak effect, and you have to dump all of your LoH charges at once, meaning you get to use this feat 1/day. Sounds very T5 to me.
Renown: 100% PFS feat. If I understand right, you can basically have access to purchase better gear a little sooner in PFS play. There is absolutely no analogue that can be sensibly ported to a home game.

[Tanuki Tales]

Yay more feats:
Master Craftsman: I really don't see how giving non magic users access to magic item crafting is treading dangerous water. This is not T2 because the feat does very little without taking another feat, and still only gives the craftsman access to one feat. On top of this, the craftsman is going to have a harder time making these items than Sir Wizard Spellcraft. This is T3 at best, and if I were doing this system, I'd even mark it as T4 not due to power level but due to helping the balance of the game.

Sorry, I misread it as making the taker count as if they had those creation feats.


Minor Spell Expertise: You don't get access to this feat until 1st level spells are starting to get phased out. This dedicates these spells to one spell for the rest of the career. How often do you see Wizards getting Rings of Wizardry I? With all of this in mind, I think it's high T3 at best.

Bloody Money never gets phased out as a spell that casters abuse. If it wasn't for that spell, I'd agree.


Major Spell Expertise: I don't have as strong of a case for this, but when you have 9ths, how often are your 5th level slots going to be pressured? This one is probably T2.

I still feel like giving casters free, decent level SLAs is a bad, bad idea. Maybe only tier 2, but still bad.


Nimble Moves: I feel like 5ft step through difficult terrain is stronger than you give it credit for, but I'm not sure I can make a good enough case for it.

The feat literally gets rendered useless at the end of its chain. I'm tempted to include a note on it that GMs should refund its points at some point.


Natural Ruler: I only hesitate to put it at T5 because it can self stack the stability bonus. This is otherwise really no better than a +2/+2 skill feat. Unless you have a more elegant solution to self-stacking feats that can get out of control, T4.

Alrighty.


Practiced Tactician: I know there are bad teamwork feats, but I thought the reason teamwork feats were low tier because of their absurd cost. Tactician gets rid of the 2 feat slot+ cost, and more uses of that could make the iffy feats a lot better. This sounds T4 to me.

The issue is that it's limited to the Teamwork feats that the Cavalier already has.


Planar Wild Shape: Getting Smite Evil/Good on every Wild shape seems to say screw you Paladin. I don't know if this means that it should be T2, but I don't like it.

Well, it's only once per day for the SE/SG.


Parry Spell: I feel like you're underestimating how bad Counterspelling really is. I think this is at best T3, because it still has the requirements of spending a standard action, and either having the right spell, spell slots at a higher level than the target, or a ~50/50 dispel magic.

Eh, maybe.


Quick Preparation: Even if it's played by the book, you may have one time in a full adventure that taking 30 minutes less to prep is useful. Definitely T6.

Felt so.


Quick Wild Shape: Even if the Druid messes up, you can't catch them in a suboptimal form? Seems a bit too strong for T4.

Except it's either a form that's two or four levels low though. So it's not like they get normal level Wildshape and Wildshape did get nerfed. Maybe tier 3?


Razor Tusk Attack: I can has Sneak Attack bite, though I do admit that it scales very poorly for Sneak Attack builds and Polearm lockdown builds. I suspect that it's T5 because of that.

It's literally a free dagger. How is that tier 5?


Resilient Eidolon: Assuming you're in a group that enforces the eidolon dismissing on you going down, this actually ensures that you don't get ruined in early levels by a Sleep spell (because you can't resummon the Eidolon), and even in later levels, things will go bad except in super high op. I think this is T4 unless you want to make the claim that it should just be in the rules.

It should be part of the rules, but we'll make it tier 4 until research shows otherwise.


Radiant Charge: You're burning a powerful resource (Swift action LoH + mercies) for a really weak effect, and you have to dump all of your LoH charges at once, meaning you get to use this feat 1/day. Sounds very T5 to me.

Completely forgot about Mercies.


Renown: 100% PFS feat. If I understand right, you can basically have access to purchase better gear a little sooner in PFS play. There is absolutely no analogue that can be sensibly ported to a home game.

So...tier 6 for being unusable?

[Kamai]

Bloody Money never gets phased out as a spell that casters abuse. If it wasn't for that spell, I'd agree.

My goodness, I thought that was at least a 3rd level spell. Who on earth thought that spell was a good idea?



The issue is that it's limited to the Teamwork feats that the Cavalier already has.

Of which the Cavalier already gets bonus feats. I'd agree with that being an issue otherwise.



Well, it's only once per day for the SE/SG.

I'm curious of the precedent that makes it 1/day and not 1/wildshape.



It's literally a free dagger. How is that tier 5?

I noted those builds specifically because for both of those builds, it's a dagger that doesn't require/stacks with TWF. I'm not saying that it matters for much of anyone else, but I think those can make good use of it.

[Tanuki Tales]

My goodness, I thought that was at least a 3rd level spell. Who on earth thought that spell was a good idea?

Probably Sean K. Reynolds. :smallwink:



Of which the Cavalier already gets bonus feats. I'd agree with that being an issue otherwise.

Fair enough. Tier 4 until playtesting proves otherwise.



I'm curious of the precedent that makes it 1/day and not 1/wildshape.

Well, before level 20, it costs 2 wildshapes to pull off that smite. So that's 4/day at level 18, but it does become infinite per day at level 20. Hm...



I noted those builds specifically because for both of those builds, it's a dagger that doesn't require/stacks with TWF. I'm not saying that it matters for much of anyone else, but I think those can make good use of it.

Then I suggest keeping it tier 6 and just adding a note concerning those builds.

[Tanuki Tales]

Here as the S's.

Tier 6
Sandwalker - Another worthless environment feat.
Schooled Reserve - Niche.
Skilled Driver - Niche.
Stable Gallop - PCs can't take it and for mounts, it's probably tier 5.
Storm-Lashed - Niche.
Superintendant - Sounds tier 6 to me.
Supernal Feast - Niche AND disturbing and something that probably should be part of the rules.
Sure-Footed - Players can't take it and even then, tier 6.
Sure Grasp - Niche and probably should be part of the rules.
Sword Oath - This feat is utter trash.


Tier 5

Roof Runner - Might be tier 4.
Scholar - Bad feat is bad.
Sea Legs - Bad feat is bad.
Secret Signs - Meh.
Secret Stash Deed - Crap feat. This might just be tier 6.
Seeds of Doubt - Bad feat is bad.
Self-Sufficient - Bad feat is bad.
Shake It Off - Teamwork feat.
Shapeshifter Foil - Niche feat.
Shared Insight - Bad feat is bad.
Sharp Senses - Bad feat is bad.
Signature Deed -This should be able to be taken multiple times.
Sin Seer - So...you trade out Detect Evil and then want it back? Wut.
Sly Draw - Someone inform me if this is better than it sounds.
Smell Fear - Meh.
Sneaking Precision - Rogues need love.
Sneaky Vagabond - Niche.
Sniper Shot - Gods be good, why?! Unlimited range should never have been removed from Sneak Attacks and this is so damn feat intensive. I want to make this tier 6.
Sociable - Bad feat is bad.
Spear Dancer - Dazzled sucks as a condition.
Spider Step - Monk.
Splintering Weapon - Niche. Might be tier 6.
Squash Flat - Meh.
Stalwart - DR 5/- is pretty crappy.
Stealthy - Bad feat is bad.
Steel Soul - Meh. Might be tier 4 since it's more useful than the save boosters.
Stoic - Meh.
Stone Faced - Niche.
Stone Read - This is tier 5 because being underground is pretty common for adventurers.
Stone Singer - See above.
Strong Comeback - Niche.
Summoner's Call - Niche, almost useless.
Sunlit Strike - Niche.
Survivor - Useful, but the prereqs suck.
Swift Kitsune Shapechanger (Kitsune) - Pretty much useless.



Tier 4

Sense Link - Useful, but not terribly so.
Shapeshifting Hunter - Oh, hey! Daring Outlaw type feats for Pathfinder! Might be tier 3.
Shatter Resolve - Useful feat, might just be tier 3.
Shielded Caster - One of the actually useful Teamwork feats.
Siphon Poison - A mundane version of a Cleric spell? Nice.
Skill Focus - Always useful, but not terribly so.
Slayer's Knack - It's Improved Critical two levels earlier and way more situational.
Small But Deadly - Pretty useful, but not amazingly so.
Sorcerous Bloodstrike - Eh...pretty meh feat.
Spell Bane - Might be tier 3, don't know Inquisitor spells well.
Spontaneous Metafocus - This only applies to one spell.
Starlight Summons - Not big, but summoning doesn't need boosts.
Stealth Synergy - Another useful Teamwork feat.
Stone Sense - Discounted for crap prerequisite feat.
Sunlight Summons - See Starlight Summons



Tier 3
Shade of the Woodlands - This is an archetype turned into a feat.
Shadow Gambit - Neat feat.
Shaping Focus - Wildshape really got nerfed, but this feat is useful.
Shared Judgement - Decent feat.
Skeleton Summoner - Neat.
Sluggish Jinx - Halfling Jinx...you make me want to play a Halfling just for all the feats that improve you.
Spell Bluff - I've heard Counterspelling sucks.
Spell Focus - Hm...might be tier 2.
Spell Penetration - Might be tier 2.
Spellsong - Decent feat.
Split Hex - Decent feat.
Split Major Hex -Hm...are Major Hexes good enough to warrant a hiher tier?



Tier 2
Sacred Summons - This might be tier 1.
Shadow Dodge - This is just a poorly worded feat. There's no apparent action to activate it, there's no cap on the dodge bonus and there's no duration either. It's niche, but it's broken in that niche.
Spell Mastery - A Wizard's spellbook is their only real weakness.
Steadfast Mind -Casters don't need a buff.
Summon Good Monster - Might be tier 1.
Summon Neutral Monster - See above.
Superior Summoning - See above.


Tier 1
Spell Hex - Blood Money.
Spell Perfection - No.
Squire - See...this was tier 3 until it turns into Leadership.

[JHShadon]

Perhaps you could put Squire as a Tier 3 feat and have it so you can pay more points at level 7 to upgrade it to Leadership.

[Kamai]

Most of these seem fine (or at least close enough), but Spell Mastery sticks out. There's really a few questions that should be asked?
How often does disappearing spellbooks come up in real game?
Should the cost really be the same no matter what level you pick up the feat? (I suspect not, because using it to pick up limited Wish as a backup is a completely different story than any first level spell.)
Would a caster high enough level to abuse this lose their spellbook, but not spell-completion/trigger items, and would this happen but the caster still living?

I've only ever heard of this being a really niche feat and fulfilling prerequisites. There are so few ways to steal a spellbook in a way where you couldn't just kill the caster, and make sure they don't have access to spell-trigger items, and make sure they don't have access to copies.

I'm also still amazed just how much support Halfling Jinx got in feats.

[Tanuki Tales]

Perhaps you could put Squire as a Tier 3 feat and have it so you can pay more points at level 7 to upgrade it to Leadership.

I don't think Leadership, as is, should really ever be allowed. I'm more likely to simply add a note concerning its cost if that part is knocked off.


Most of these seem fine (or at least close enough), but Spell Mastery sticks out. There's really a few questions that should be asked?
How often does disappearing spellbooks come up in real game?
Should the cost really be the same no matter what level you pick up the feat? (I suspect not, because using it to pick up limited Wish as a backup is a completely different story than any first level spell.)
Would a caster high enough level to abuse this lose their spellbook, but not spell-completion/trigger items, and would this happen but the caster still living?

I've only ever heard of this being a really niche feat and fulfilling prerequisites. There are so few ways to steal a spellbook in a way where you couldn't just kill the caster, and make sure they don't have access to spell-trigger items, and make sure they don't have access to copies.

If it wasn't for Blood Money, I'd probably agree with all this. But they made they spell and it's ridiculously broken for a 1st level.


I'm also still amazed just how much support Halfling Jinx got in feats.

I know, right?

Edit:

Let's finish off the General Feats, shall we?

Tier 6
Terrifying Mask - So niche.
Torch Handling - Really niche.
Tribe Mentality - One of the worst Teamwork feats yet.
Urban Forager - This should be part of the rules.
Valiant Steed - Can't be taken by PCs.
Vandal (Goblin) - Unattended objects always get broken anyways.
Variant Prayer-Scroll - How many PCs ever play a Jiang-shi?


Tier 5

Team Pickpocket - Teamwork feat.
Thoughtful Discernment - Bad feat is bad.
Totem Spirit - Like people actually adhere to fluff requirements.
Tribal Scars - See above.
Ultimate Resolve - Meh.
Uncanny Alertness - Bad feat is bad.
Undermining Exploit - Niche, but underground is home to many an adventurer.
Unsanctioned Detection - Not worth the trade off.
Vermin Empathy - Niche.
Vigilant Eidolon - Meh.
Voice of the Sibyl - Meh.
Walker Among Evil - Meh.
Wall of Flesh (Teamwork) - Ugh...so bad.
War Singer - Niche.
Warrior Priest - Neat.
Well-Prepared - Neat, but not terribly useful.
Whip-Shot Deed (Grit) - Gunslinger feats keep being not worth a feat slot, more times than not.



Tier 4

Theurgy - Might be tier 5.
Ultimate Mercy - Pretty neat, but resource intensive.
Vampiric Companion - Might be tier 5.
Versatile Jinxer - More Halfling Jinx support!
Wand Dancer - Discounted for prereqs.
Wild Speech - I like this feat. This is a good feat.
Witch Knife - Interesting and kind of useful.
Word of Healing - Might be tier 3.



Tier 3
Turn Undead - Decent feat.
Uncanny Activation - This can get nasty with wands, but I don't know if it's broken.
Undead Master - Might be tier 2.



Tier 2
Tapestry Traveler - Long range teleportation can already be a game breaker by itself.
Tenacious Transmutation - Transmutation is already the second strongest school of magic.
Uncanny Concentration - Like Concentration checks weren't already trivial.


Tier 1
Torchbearer - Oh look...another Squire feat.

[Kamai]

Totem Spirit: Initiative stacking seems like something that shouldn't be easy to do. For that alone, this feat might want to be T4.
Uncanny Activation: This is kinda broken, but not in the way that you're thinking. "Regardless, you can't increase an item's caster level to one that is higher than your own caster level." Either this is a pointless restriction, since you can probably emulate caster level "enough", or this makes the feat worthless to anyone who isn't a caster. Honestly, I can't tell which is the intended interaction. Otherwise, it's fine as a T3 feat, since these items are usually minimum caster level.
Undead Master: +16 HD is really nice, at least as nice as Augment Summoning.
Vampiric Companion: I think it should stay T4. It hands the companion immunity to mind-affecting, and for the lighter companions, if they get the d12 HD, could get decently tough out of that. Could an animal negative energy cleric pull off something stupid with this?
Wall of Flesh: 2 feats for +1 to CMD? That sounds pretty T6 to me.

[Tanuki Tales]

Totem Spirit: Initiative stacking seems like something that shouldn't be easy to do. For that alone, this feat might want to be T4.

It's just a +1 though.


Uncanny Activation: This is kinda broken, but not in the way that you're thinking. "Regardless, you can't increase an item's caster level to one that is higher than your own caster level." Either this is a pointless restriction, since you can probably emulate caster level "enough", or this makes the feat worthless to anyone who isn't a caster. Honestly, I can't tell which is the intended interaction. Otherwise, it's fine as a T3 feat, since these items are usually minimum caster level.

Wands you can increases to two higher max and I think the feat was intended to allow mimicking a caster level.


Undead Master: +16 HD is really nice, at least as nice as Augment Summoning.

Undead aren't as cheap or powerful as Summoned monsters though, except in certain situations. And they're a lot easier to deal with and are something the default setting is prepared to deal with. We'll still make it Tier 2 because of AE breaking.


Vampiric Companion: I think it should stay T4. It hands the companion immunity to mind-affecting, and for the lighter companions, if they get the d12 HD, could get decently tough out of that. Could an animal negative energy cleric pull off something stupid with this?

Only a Dhampir or a Vampire can use this feat. It's not something that will really ever see play.


Wall of Flesh: 2 feats for +1 to CMD? That sounds pretty T6 to me.

Point. And now we get to move onto combat feats! I wonder how many are Tier 5 or lower, cause I seriously doubt we'll have more than 3 that are higher than tier 3 (if that). :smalltongue:

Edit:

Here are As and Bs.


Tier 6
Armor Proficiency, Heavy - I can't, in good conscience, make this tier 5. In fact, learning armor and weapons should be a skill based thing and not even require a feat.
Armor Proficiency, Light - See above.
Armor Proficiency, Medium - See above.


Tier 5

Advanced Defensive Combat Training - Ignoring the fluff requirement, this might be tier 4. Maybe more, seeing as CMD scales far faster than CMB.
Agile Maneuvers - This should be part of the rules.
Amateur Gunslinger - Might be tier 4, though I can't remember any great gunslinger deeds.
Ammo Drop - Niche.
Ankle Biter - Meh feat.
Arc Slinger - Niche.
Arcane Armor Training - Full casters have better use for their swift actions and would never be wearing much armor in the first place. And any they would be wearing would be mithril.
Arcane Strike - This is actually pretty neat, but not much.
Archon Diversion - Monk.
Archon Style - Monk.
Back to Back - Didn't we already do this one?
Banishing Critical - A Full caster is never taking this.
Banner of Doom - Really niche, might be tier 6.
Bashing Finish - So feat intensive.
Bear Hug - Meh.
Beartrap Bite - This is a kind of neat feat, but don't were-bears already get Improved Grab?
Betraying Blow - Niche and would be better if it had no cap.
Binding Throw - Monk.
Blade Binder - Niche.
Blazing Aura - The damage is nothing to write home about.
Bleeding Attack - Easy to qualify for, but the damage is nothing to write home about.
Bleeding Critical - Procs rarely and applies a debuff that's trivial to get rid of.
Blinding Critical - This feat is crap.
Blinding Flash - See..this would be useful if you could use it as part of an attack routine (like giving up an attack to do it). Not worth a move action.
Blistering Feint - Niche and fire damage is the worst in the game.
Bloody Assault - This is crap and doesn't stack with itself. I'd rather have a +1 weapon enchantment that just deals bleeding damage.
Bloody Vengeance - Even though this stacks, it's still crap.
Bludgeoner - Niche.
Boar Ferocity - Might be tier 4.
Boar Style - The fact that only a Monk can use this properly at the level it's intended to be accessible makes it tier 5.
Body Shield - Neat, but feat intensive.
Bodyguard - Meh.
Bonebreaker - Holy crap that's feat intensive. Wizards can do this with a single spell.
Bounding Hammer - A feat let's you be Thor and replaces an expensive weapon enchantment? Why thank you Paizo!
Break Guard - Meh.
Brutal Grappler - Meh.
Bull Rush Strike - Requires a critical to proc and not amazing anyways.
Bullseye Shot - Niche and might be tier 4.
Bullying Blow - This might be tier 4.
Catch Off-guard - Nothing really interesting about this feat.
Cautious Fighter - Oh, hey, look, an arbitrary racial limitation (most of them are anyways). This is better than Dodge and may be tier 4.
Chain-flail Master - No clue how good this feat is.
Channel Smite - Did we do this one already? It's niche anyways.
Charge of the Righteous - Niche, but does apply to two of the most common enemy types, so not tier 6.
Charge Through - Giving mundanes things to do with their free actions is always nice. Might be tier 4.
Charging Hurler - Doing this sounds like a bad idea.
Chokehold - Monk.
Claw Pounce - Really niche way to get pounce.
Cleave - Nice at low levels, but outdone by both Great Cleave and a full attack routine at later levels.
Cleaving Finish - If this feat had a better cap on it, I could see it argued as being tier 4, if not tier 3.
Close-Quarters Thrower - Meh.
Cloven Helm - Meh.
Cockatrice Strike - This feat is awful.
Combat Expertise - Bad feat is bad.
Combat Style Master - Monk.
Coordinated Maneuvers - Teamwork feat.
Cornugon Shield - Meh.
Cornugon Smash -This is nice. Giving mundanes nice things to do with the action economy is great.
Cornugon Stun - Monk.
Cornugon Trip - Only a fool throws his weapon.
Crippling Critical - This feat is terrible.
Crossbow Mastery - Neat, but not terribly useful.
Crusader's Fist - Why?
Crushing Blow - Monk.
Covering Defense - Nice, but not terribly so.
Critical Focus - It's not like you take a penalty on critical hits. You either got lucky and scored a crit threat and thus this feat barely improves your odds, or you have enough attack bonus already to confirm a crit threat.
Darting Viper - I don't know the weapon, but this doesn't feel more than tier 5 to me.
Deafening Critical - This critical feats continue to suck.
Deadly Stroke - Holy crap this is feat intensive.
Death or Glory - The feat is named aptly.
Deathless Initiate - Discounted for crap prereq feat.
Deathless Master - See above.
Deathless Zealot - See above.
Deflect Arrows - Monk.
Demoralizing Lash - Bad feat is bad.
Dented Helm - Neat, but not very useful.
Dervish Dance - Niche.
Desperate Battler - Bad feat is bad.
Desperate Swing - Bad feat is bad.
Destroyer's Blessing - Kind of neat.
Devastating Strike - A whole 6 damage? Whoop-dee-doo.
Disarming Strike - Meh.
Disengaging Feint - Neat, but not amazing. Might be tier 4.
Disengaging Shot - Nice, but very feat intensive.
Disorienting Blow - Monk.
Disrupting Shot - Like that +4 really matters.
Distance Thrower - Meh.
Double Slice - TWF needs the love.
Drag Down - Might be tier 4.
Drunken Brawler - Neat, but not terribly useful.
Dueling Mastery - Niche.
Duelist - Niche.
Great Cleave - When you've got good reach, there are more enemies than your iterative attacks and they're all adjacent, this feat is better than doing a full attack routine or trying to invest in the Spring Attack or Whirlwind attack chains. It invalidates Cleave as a feat though and can be a little niche, so I say it's tier 5.
Improved Disarm - They nerfed most combat maneuvers.
Sickening Critical - This should have stacked with itself.
Staggering Critical - Useful, but gained so late and isn't terribly likely to proc.
Tiring Critical - If this made fatigued creatures go exhausted, it'd be nicer.



Tier 4

Blind-Fight - Miss chances are so common at mid to late levels, along with invisible attackers, that this is tier 4.
Blundering Defense - This would be more useful if it had better range.
Boar Shred - Large amount of Bleed damage that is not mentioned as not stacking. Nice.
Broken Wing Gambit - One of the more useful Teamwork feats.
Cleave Through - See, if this could be gotten earlier, I might have made it tier 3.
Clustered Shots - This might just be tier 3, if only because DR is literally the bane of archery. Actually, maybe it should be tier 5 because of that.
Combat Patrol - This feat is honestly pretty great. I'm finding that I want to purposely under-tier feats that give mundanes nice things though.
Combat Reflexes - This feat gets taken pretty often.
Coordinated Defense - Teamwork feat, but CMD already scales faster than CMB.
Critical Mastery - Nice, but might be tier 5.
Critical Versatility - Fighters should be able to change all their feats daily, but this is definitely better than each individual critical feat.
Dastardly Finish - Nice, but still damage.
Dazing Assault - Might be tier 3, but I want to give mundanes nice things.
Dazzling Display - Nice, but not tier 3 nice.
Deadly Aim - Ranged Power Attack ftw.
Death from Above - Nice.
Dodge - Might be tier 5.
Exhausting Critical - A more useful Critical feat, but might still be tier 5.
Improved Critical - A commonly taken feat when a Keen weapon can't be obtained.


Tier 3
Deadly Finish - It's a SoD. I'd love to make it tier 4 though, but SoD can break the game balance.
Demon Hunter - Restricting this to just demons is why it's tier 3.
Greater Dirty Trick - I don't know how good this combat maneuver is.
Greater Drag - See above.
Improved Dirty Trick - See above.
Improved Drag - See above.




Tier 2

Defensive Combat Training - Sorry Rogues, but this is just too good a feat for casters.






Surprise, Surprise; nothing above Tier 4.

Edit Edit:

C's (and some others) added.

Edit Edit Edit:

Ds (and some others) added.

[Tanuki Tales]

Going to give about eight more hours for feedback before I move things from the To Do list to the Tier list. I want to get the first part of this project done sooner than later.

[Tanuki Tales]

Ds for the combat feats added to my last post for tiering.

[3WhiteFox3]

On Dirty Trick and Drag, they are often considered to be two of the better combat maneuvers. However, Dirty Trick is pretty much crap until Greater Dirty Trick. Because while Dirty Trick can place some decent conditions onto a target, it's just too easy to remove with just a move action. But even with Greater Dirty Trick, all you're really doing is just trading one standard action for another; so on one hand trading one standard for another is underwhelming, but if you can't get good damage this turn (for example, can't get a sneak attack or a full attack off), hitting your opponent with a debuff, letting your allies beat on him for a turn, which he then has to spend either removing the debuff or living with the penalty it's not bad. It also works well against opponents more capable or dangerous than you especially since it doesn't require a save; for example: blinding works well on beatsticks, deafened is nifty against casters, entangled also has it's uses, etc...

My main issues with it are threefold; 1) This should be in the rules already; I don't think that using sand thrown in someone's face or boxing their ears should ever cost three feats to do effectively. 2) Pointless feat taxes; both combat expertise and improved dirty trick are only there to build up to the somewhat nice pay off. 3) It's a melee nice thing, it's only real use is to either make up for not being set up that turn for damage, or because you're facing an opponent more powerful than yourself; which is just making up for trying to be melee.

Drag isn't bad, it's some surprisingly solid forced movement. Once Greater Drag is up and running, pulling an opponent through your ranks taking AoOs all the way is pretty good. I like it better than bull rush, because often times, bringing the enemies closer is a lot better than pushing them away.

I personally put both Imp. Drag and Imp. Dirty Trick as Tier 4 (both of them are probably better than Disarm, even without the feats; Imp. Dirty Trick might be Tier 5) with the Greater versions tier 3 (Drag might be Tier 4).

[Tanuki Tales]

On Dirty Trick and Drag, they are often considered to be two of the better combat maneuvers. However, Dirty Trick is pretty much crap until Greater Dirty Trick. Because while Dirty Trick can place some decent conditions onto a target, it's just too easy to remove with just a move action. But even with Greater Dirty Trick, all you're really doing is just trading one standard action for another; so on one hand trading one standard for another is underwhelming, but if you can't get good damage this turn (for example, can't get a sneak attack or a full attack off), hitting your opponent with a debuff, letting your allies beat on him for a turn, which he then has to spend either removing the debuff or living with the penalty it's not bad. It also works well against opponents more capable or dangerous than you especially since it doesn't require a save; for example: blinding works well on beatsticks, deafened is nifty against casters, entangled also has it's uses, etc...

My main issues with it are threefold; 1) This should be in the rules already; I don't think that using sand thrown in someone's face or boxing their ears should ever cost three feats to do effectively. 2) Pointless feat taxes; both combat expertise and improved dirty trick are only there to build up to the somewhat nice pay off. 3) It's a melee nice thing, it's only real use is to either make up for not being set up that turn for damage, or because you're facing an opponent more powerful than yourself; which is just making up for trying to be melee.

Drag isn't bad, it's some surprisingly solid forced movement. Once Greater Drag is up and running, pulling an opponent through your ranks taking AoOs all the way is pretty good. I like it better than bull rush, because often times, bringing the enemies closer is a lot better than pushing them away.

I personally put both Imp. Drag and Imp. Dirty Trick as Tier 4 (both of them are probably better than Disarm, even without the feats; Imp. Dirty Trick might be Tier 5) with the Greater versions tier 3 (Drag might be Tier 4).

Thank you for posting this analysis. :smallbiggrin:

If it gives mundanes nice things to do though and isn't anything amazing, then I think we should be alright making the feats tier 5/tier 4 instead of tier 4/tier 3.

[Tanuki Tales]

I don't want to, but if no further comments are made by midnight tonight, I'll be moving all those combat feats onto the tier list and move on to the next batch of feats.

[Kamai]

If you're still wanting input on the A-C (even though I'm a bit late)
Amateur Gunslinger: If you can get into Archetype 1st level Grit abilities, there's some very solid T4 candidates. Otherwise, you're probably picking up Quick Clear, which we can debate all day if it's a solid feature or something that should just be part of the rules.
Ammo Drop: I don't understand why Paizo made this feat instead of just allowing Rapid Reload work with Slings. I don't want to say a character is actively worse for taking this feat, but all it gives you is access to a second attack on a full-attack. I think this is T6.
Archon Style: This is T6. This is worse than Aid Another for AC.
Banishing Critical: This is too niche to be anything better than T5, but try to remember the Summoner/Bard/Inquisitor/Magus when judging the spell critical feats.
Beartrap Bite: The key part is that they do not have the grappled condition, which means they can also grab someone else, or lock down someone's position without affecting their combat vs others. The only problem is requiring a crit on a 20/x2 weapon.
Blinding Critical: It has some stupid escape clauses, but Blind is a pretty nasty condition. 10+BAB keeps up with standard spell DCs. Sure, lots of things are relying on Blindsense/tremorsense at this point, but in it's niche, it's devastating.
Body Shield: Someone using Grapple isn't going out of their way at all to be able to get this feat. I don't think it should be penalized for a long chain.
Bullseye Shot: Then you hit BAB +6, and in an ordinary full attack, you're making 3 attacks with Rapid shot. I suspect that even with penalties, 3 attacks is going to do better than a single attack at +4. This is not T4.
Chain-flail Fighter: Originally, it was all Sweet, one handed reach weapon. However, with it both needing the EWP and TWF, I think it's too feat intensive.
Charging Hurler: If you have Point-blank shot, and you might want a feat like this, you're already going for a switch hitter or thrown weapon user. In the first, this basically lets a standard person charge 3x their move speed, with the option to charge again next turn if the enemy decides on another threat. For the second, your movement speed usually closes a range increment. I think it might be T4.
Darting Viper: This honestly should just be part of the weapon to justify the EWP cost.
Disengaging Feint: So, please tell me what the withdraw action does. In case you couldn't tell, I think this feat's T6.
Dastardly Finish:This is as nasty of a SoD as Deadly Finish. Both have niche-ish conditions (how often do you need the SoD on someone you knocked to -1 anyways).
Demon Hunter: I'm not convinced this feat's as good as spell penetration, because of the rather particular restriction on it, even though it has Spell Penetration as part of the feat. I wouldn't hesitate to put it at T4.
Since it's not up at all:
Disengaging Flourish: This has a terrible feat requirement, but finally pushes Disengaging Feint to be better than a Withdraw Action (assuming you don't fail any bluff checks). It's probably T5, but with the all or nothing of the bluff checks, and the existence of the Withdraw action, I wouldn't blink at T6.

[Adam1949]

I've noticed that you've often wondered / requested if the Skinwalker race is any good. Seeing as I've played one and own the Blood of the Moon book, here's my review of them.

At their most basic, they do not make good INT-based characters due to the racial penalty. Their abilities also do not speak well for a CHA-based character, unless the entire party is shapechangers. Overall their abilities slant them towards a melee-ish bent, and make excellent Druids, Rangers, Battle Clerics, and Insightful Fighters. The bonus to Wild Empathy and Handle Animal, as well as once-per-day Speak With Animals, only further drive the first two home. The closest approximation regarding optimizing the class is to look at the 3.5 Shifter; your main draw is your animalistic abilities, so work assuming that.

That said, here are the feats.

Extra Feature: Constitution requirement is a bit rough considering the race doesn't get a bonus to it. However, the fact that you can gain it twice (thrice if you select a different bloodline), and that the abilities themselves are fairly tame, rank this at a 4.
Fast Change: 13 DEX, BAB +6. This lets you shift as a Move instead of a Standard. Unless you're right next to a foe, or REALLY NEED that physical ability boost right now, this isn't a very impressive ability. 5.

Now for the bloodlines! I'll rank each heritage first, then the feats they offer.

Bloodmarked (AKA werebat): These actually make great wizards; reversing the stat bonus/penalty of a normal skinwalker, and gaining a bonus to DEX and potentially not needing blindsight or featherfall is worth it for a couple of levels.
Bat Shape: Good Flight at potentially level 1. This tapers off once more reliable flight becomes available, but it's still an utter blessing for Wizards (and sorcerers, since the feat needs Charisma). Tier 3-4.
Bloodmarked Scout: Well, it's not Bat Shape for sure. However, it does give you the benefit of being able to cast. Unfortunately, this requires a BAB of +5, making it not good for spellcasters (magic items are much better) and bad for martials (20 clumsy feet just because I want to have good AC? No thanks). 5.
Dire Bat Shape: Oh boy, we can attack as a bat now! Or you could just, you know, undo the form and cast a spell. Again, for nonspellcasters it's really good, but for spellcasters this has less punch than the first one. 4.

Coldborn (Werebear): +CON -CHA, a bonus to WIS while shapechanged, and some natural attacks. Ehh, it might make a good unarmed Fighter or Ranger.
Beartrap Bite: Not very good, as it pins you down to a single transformation aspect. Tier 5.
Bearhug: Ridiculous requirements, all for being able to do a certain type of grapple and a minuscule bonus to damage. Bleh. Tier 6.
Ferocious Loyalty: A teamwork feat... that does better when you get your teammates killed. Tier 6.

Ragebred (Wearboar): +WIS -CHA, +CON while changed. Has a choice of scent, a +10 bonus to speed, a gore, or two hooves. Despite the name, this makes a decent Ranger or Fighter as well as a Barbarian. Does not grant any feats, instead giving new Rage powers (Including Frenzied Berserker's main shtick, the old "I can't die no matter how much you damage me" trick!)

Scaleheart (Werecrocs): +INT -WIS, +STR while changed. Potential abilities of a bit, darkvision, a swim speed, or Ferocity. These are actually a good option for Wizards, Magi, and (as the replacement-for-feats suggest) Witches with a martial bend to them.

Nightskulk (Wererat): +INT -STR, +DEX while transformed as well as climbing, scent, Distraction, or a bite. Why they don't get +DEX at all times, I'll never know. I guess it makes a good Rogue, or a Wizard if you know what you're doing. No feats, although two Rogue Talents in particular stand out; Disease Use gives your rogue the ability to essentially always force Filth Fever upon targets, and Scavenger reduces the time it takes to pick up and stow an object down to a single swift action.

Seascarred (Wereshark): +WIS -INT, +CON and potentially Amphibious, Bite, Ferocity, or Swim speed while transformed. Bizarrely offers Magus Arcana, despite absolutely nothing about them saying "I am a magic knight".

Fanglord (Weretiger): +DEX -WIS, +2 CHA and perhaps bite, claws, speed bonus, or See In Darkness while shapechanged. A decent Bard or Rogue, perhaps?
Surprising Combatant: This feat is horrible, and only becomes merely bad if you can assure that you and your party will go first in a fight. Tier 6.
Motivating Display: Requires Dazzling Display. It's not that good of a feat since it only grants a +1 to attack and skill checks to your allies, but since this will apply for as long as they would be shaken if they were foes (and really, why WOULDN'T they choose to 'fail' the check), this isn't a bad thing. Tier 4.
Violent Display: Immediate Action Dazzling Display if you can confirm a crit or successfully sneak attack. Meh. Tier 4.

Witchwolf (Werewolf): +CON -INT, and shapechanging grants you +WIS and your choice of a Bite, Claws, Darkvision, or a +2 bonus to all saving throws. First off, again, why is this race associated with Witches if it doesn't line up with the stats? Plus, the feats are all Style feats! That being said, the +2 to all saving throws can actually be a godsend at lower levels and may still provide handy against Save-or-Suck/Die effects, so the iconic werewoof isn't down for the count completely. Technically makes a decent Monk, although the Unarmed Fighter archetype may work better for it.
Wolf Style: I really hope you like cross-class skills and pumping Wisdom, because this entire feat chain is requiring you to do that. Knowledge (Nature) 3 ranks, what were they thinking... That said, if you can reliably deal at least 10 damage with AoO's, then slowing down a target isn't so bad. Plus, a free trip attempt if you slow them down lots! Tier 5.
Wolf Trip: If you really like AoO tripping and choosing where the poor sod lands, then I guess this isn't a bad investment. Tier 5.
Wolf Savage: The requirements are killer (Wisdom 17 and 9 ranks in Knowledge (Nature), for starters), but this is actually worth it. After having tripped a foe and then mauled him, they are forced to make a Fortitude save of 10 + 1/2 your character level + your WIS modifier (which, at the very first level you can potentially get this, would be a DC 17 save that only gets tougher); failure indicates that you can inflict a magic-less Bestow Curse upon the victim. This is actually a really handy and useful thing for a martial character to have, but the fact that it requires the last two feats make this less-then-optimal. Tier 4.

[Tanuki Tales]

If you're still wanting input on the A-C (even though I'm a bit late)

I usually wait on you. :smallbiggrin:


Amateur Gunslinger: If you can get into Archetype 1st level Grit abilities, there's some very solid T4 candidates. Otherwise, you're probably picking up Quick Clear, which we can debate all day if it's a solid feature or something that should just be part of the rules.

This feat doesn't let you take archetypes though.


Ammo Drop: I don't understand why Paizo made this feat instead of just allowing Rapid Reload work with Slings. I don't want to say a character is actively worse for taking this feat, but all it gives you is access to a second attack on a full-attack. I think this is T6.

You make a good point.


Archon Style: This is T6. This is worse than Aid Another for AC.

I've never seen the Aid Another rules used, so I didn't know.


Banishing Critical: This is too niche to be anything better than T5, but try to remember the Summoner/Bard/Inquisitor/Magus when judging the spell critical feats.

Only the Magus would really take this feat though, maybe the Inquisitor. And I feel like they'd only justifiably benefit but judging more on how the feats would affect full casters (who'd more likely see play than the extra classes).


Beartrap Bite: The key part is that they do not have the grappled condition, which means they can also grab someone else, or lock down someone's position without affecting their combat vs others. The only problem is requiring a crit on a 20/x2 weapon.

This is actually worse than Grab, as the creature hit by this isn't grappled either. Still tier 5 to me.


Blinding Critical: It has some stupid escape clauses, but Blind is a pretty nasty condition. 10+BAB keeps up with standard spell DCs. Sure, lots of things are relying on Blindsense/tremorsense at this point, but in it's niche, it's devastating.

You understand that by the wording of the feat, that both Fast Healing and Regeneration remove the Blindness dealt by this feat, right? And Cure Blindness has been acceptable for a while.


Body Shield: Someone using Grapple isn't going out of their way at all to be able to get this feat. I don't think it should be penalized for a long chain.

How is it penalized?


Bullseye Shot: Then you hit BAB +6, and in an ordinary full attack, you're making 3 attacks with Rapid shot. I suspect that even with penalties, 3 attacks is going to do better than a single attack at +4. This is not T4.

I was thinking about ranged sniper build rogues, but they do need more love.


Charging Hurler: If you have Point-blank shot, and you might want a feat like this, you're already going for a switch hitter or thrown weapon user. In the first, this basically lets a standard person charge 3x their move speed, with the option to charge again next turn if the enemy decides on another threat. For the second, your movement speed usually closes a range increment. I think it might be T4.

I didn't even think about it being used as a charge hack. Hm...T5 until research shows otherwise?


Disengaging Feint: So, please tell me what the withdraw action does. In case you couldn't tell, I think this feat's T6.

Withdrawing is a full-round action though. This feat lets you get away without provoking attacks of opportunity for half the distance, but leaves you a move action to play with.


Dastardly Finish:This is as nasty of a SoD as Deadly Finish. Both have niche-ish conditions (how often do you need the SoD on someone you knocked to -1 anyways).

My bad; I forgot that rogues get their sneak attack dice on coup de graces.


Demon Hunter: I'm not convinced this feat's as good as spell penetration, because of the rather particular restriction on it, even though it has Spell Penetration as part of the feat. I wouldn't hesitate to put it at T4.

Demons are incredibly common though, but fair enough. T4 until evidence shows otherwise.


Since it's not up at all:

Blame Firefox. It doesn't always want to open a link when I click "open link in new tab".


Disengaging Flourish: This has a terrible feat requirement, but finally pushes Disengaging Feint to be better than a Withdraw Action (assuming you don't fail any bluff checks). It's probably T5, but with the all or nothing of the bluff checks, and the existence of the Withdraw action, I wouldn't blink at T6.

I reiterate, both Disengaging Feint and this feat are better than Withdrawing.


@Adam: I will address your post on the Were-kin when I get a chance, though, as a whole, they're a low personal priority on my part (to be honest).

[Kamai]

Re: Disengaging feint line
On the base feat, you need the skill check to get the standard action escape from a single opponent. I honestly haven't seen many ways to replace move actions with something besides moving. So, you're paying for a feat whose niche is "Needing to Withdraw from a single enemy who I don't have to go through multiple squares of reach and at the same time, needing a more versatile move action than the standard withdraw." I'm having trouble seeing how this is worth a feat slot at all.
With Disengaging Flourish, I really don't like how unreliable it is for the fact that it has prerequisites. That's where I questioned it as compared to a Withdraw action.

Blinding Critical: I can see the case for Regeneration, but I don't see the case for Fast Healing working on this. I also can't say that I've seen a SLA list that included Remove Blindness, which means cleaning up blindness is an action for a 6 or 9 level caster to partially counter an action (full attack) to fix the problem. Sounds like a fair trade to me. Heal on the other hand does kinda also dampen it's fun.

[Tanuki Tales]

Re: Disengaging feint line
On the base feat, you need the skill check to get the standard action escape from a single opponent. I honestly haven't seen many ways to replace move actions with something besides moving. So, you're paying for a feat whose niche is "Needing to Withdraw from a single enemy who I don't have to go through multiple squares of reach and at the same time, needing a more versatile move action than the standard withdraw." I'm having trouble seeing how this is worth a feat slot at all.
With Disengaging Flourish, I really don't like how unreliable it is for the fact that it has prerequisites. That's where I questioned it as compared to a Withdraw action.

Things that you can do with a move action:
Reload a weapon.
Draw a weapon.
Several feats reduce standard actions to move actions (like Accelerated Drinker or Quick Wild Shape).
Performing certain skill checks (like Perception).
Retrieve a stored item.
Use certain class features (such as a Skirmisher Ranger's Chameleon Step, which would net you 3x your movement speed in one round).


Blinding Critical: I can see the case for Regeneration, but I don't see the case for Fast Healing working on this. I also can't say that I've seen a SLA list that included Remove Blindness, which means cleaning up blindness is an action for a 6 or 9 level caster to partially counter an action (full attack) to fix the problem. Sounds like a fair trade to me. Heal on the other hand does kinda also dampen it's fun.

I misremembered how the Heal spell works. I still want to keep it T5 because of the fact it's potentially niche, only rarely happens in the course of combat and does have options to deal with it. If evidence shows otherwise, I'm fine with updating it to being T4 at a later time.


Edit:

In the mean time, here's some more feats:


Tier 6
Exotic Weapon Proficiency - Pointless feat tax. Most exotic weapons are just garbage compared to existing martial and simple weapons.
Feral Combat Training - Paizo is freaking idiotic for making creatures unable to use natural attack like this in this manner in the first place.
Flagbearer - So incredibly niche.
Fury's Fall - This should be part of the rules.



Tier 5
Efreeti Stance - Monk.
Efreeti Style - Monk.
Efreeti Touch - Monk.
Eldritch Claws - I don't really understand the strength requirement. Might be T4.
Elemental Fist - Monk.
Elephant Stomp - Meh.
Elvent Battle Training - Meh.
Enforcer - Easy to qualify for and an alright debuff. But it does require dealing nonlethal damage, which isn't always easy or convenient to do. Might be T4.
Equipment Trick - This should be part of the rules.
False Opening - This doesn't seem intelligent to me.
Far Shot - Might be T4.
Fearsome Barricade - Neat and might be T4 without that organization requirement.
Feinting Flurry - Monk.
Felling Escape - Niche.
Felling Smash - Feat intensive, but might be T4 because of how common Power Attack is.
Ferocious Tenacity - Neat and might be T4.
Final Embrace - Niche and crappy.
Final Embrace Master - Crap.
Firebrand - Meh.
Fire Hand - Really crappy. Might even be T6.
Focused Shot - Niche and being precision damage makes this T5.
Fortified Armor Training - Neat, might be T4.
Fury of the Tainted - Niche.
Fury's Snare - Niche.
Giant Killer - Waaay too many prereqs.
Gloom Strike - The only thing making this not T6 is how common and easy the conditions are to set up.
Gnome Weapon Focus - Slightly better than straight Weapon Focus, but still niche and crap.
Goblin Cleaver - Neat but niche.
Goblin Gunslinger - Why can only goblins take this?
Gorefriend - Niche.
Gorgon's Fist - Monk.
Gory Finish - Meh.
Greater Grapple - Combat maneuvers got so nerfed by Paizo.
Great Hatred - Niche and crappy. Might be T6.
Grudge Fighter - Crap.
Improved Feinting Flurry - Monk.
Improved Fury of the Tainted - Niche.
Improved Grapple - See Greater Grapple.



Tier 4
Elven Accuracy - Concealment does play a major part in higher level defensive tactics, but this feat might be niche enough to be T5.
Final Embrace Horror - Might be T5.
Focused Discipline - This is actually neat. If it scaled and lasted a little longer, it'd be T3.
Following Step - Might be T4.
Gang Up - Might be T3.
Greater Feint - Nice, but not amazing. The feat requirements might make this T5.
Improved Feint - Feinting probably should be a move action already. Maybe T5 because of that.




Tier 3

Flanking Foil - Why? Why did they make a feat that completely neuters the Rogue class? I might just make it T2 on those grounds.
Furious Focus - Nice.

[Tanuki Tales]

Tiered some more feats.

[Phillammon]

Most of these seem perfectly reasonable. I'd move that Great Hatred should indeed be T6, inasmuch as it seems to be on par with the rest of tier 6 unless there's a truly horrendous number of goblinoids and lizardmen around, which isn't too unreasonable I guess, but still. Equipment Trick looks like a dicey one- while maybe it should be functioning that way anyway, the different pieces of equipment may be of different tiers- Sunrod, particularly, looks like it might be higher tier, as may rope.

As a side note, Feral Combat Training is incredibly odd, I never even realized it wasn't that way to start with, and Flanking Foil probably doesn't want to be bumped up- if you're hitting someone already, they're probably not in a position to sneak attack you. Though the flanking is unfortunate for them.

[Tanuki Tales]

Equipment Trick looks like a dicey one- while maybe it should be functioning that way anyway, the different pieces of equipment may be of different tiers- Sunrod, particularly, looks like it might be higher tier, as may rope.

You still require other feats and skill investitures, in addition to this feat, to use this feat at all for the most part.


Flanking Foil probably doesn't want to be bumped up- if you're hitting someone already, they're probably not in a position to sneak attack you. Though the flanking is unfortunate for them.

It's a round long debuff though that prevents a creature from getting away from you and setting you up for another Sneak Attack, which some creatures can do in one turn.

[Tanuki Tales]

Here are more feats.

Tier 6
Intimidating Prowess - This should be part of the rules.
Juggle Load - For the same reason as Ammo drop.



Tier 5
Bonebreaker - Monk.
Enhanced Ki Throw - Monk.
Halfling Slinger - So niche; might be T6.
Hamatula Grasp - Meh.
Hamatula Strike - Hm...might be T4.
Hamatulatsu Strike - Neat, but niche.
Hammer the Gap - Nice, but the damage is way too little.
Hard-headed - Aren't helmets improvised weapons?
Haunted Gnome - Really meh.
Haunted Gnome Assault - Hm...interesting. Still T5.
Hellcat Pounce - Niche.
Hex Strike - Niche.
Hold the Blade - Neat, but not amazing. Might be T4.
Horse Master - Meh.
Impact Critical Shot - Niche and not great.
Impaling Critical - This sounds better than it actually is.
Improved Impaling Critical - Might be T4.
Improved Ki Throw - Monk.
Improved Low Blow - Niche.
Improved Surprise Follow-Through - Waaay too many prereq feats.
Improved Two-Weapon Feint - This seems to have been built with Rogues in mind, but it probably wouldn't play out well.
Improvised Weapon Mastery - Why can't this be taken before level 8?
Jawbreaker - Monk.
Ki Diversity - Monk.
Ki Throw - Monk.
Kobold Ambusher - Neat, but not amazing. Could be T4.
Kobold Sniper - See above.
Landing Roll - Discounted for feats.
Large Target - Crap feat.
Lead from the Back - See above.
Let Them Come - Crap feat.
Lookout - Teamwork feat.
Low Profile - Niche.
Neckbreaker - Monk.



Tier 4
Haunted Gnome Shroud - Miss chances are great and you get it with a feat and a 0-level spell (which it never specifies as being your SLA version). Actually, this might be T3.
Improved Initiative - This is pretty much a go-to feat for any and all builds. Might be T3.
In Harm's Way - Tanking is finally looking to be viable for d20.
Inner Flame - This might be T3.
Jaguar Pounce - Interesting feat, but I'm not sure if it's here, T3 or T5.
Lightning Stance - Might be T3.
Lucky Strike - Halflings are just neat.
Lunge - Nice.


Tier 3
Indomitable Mount - Nice feat.

[SamBurke]

Intimidating Prowess is the only one there I have a problem with: it's the centerpiece for several solid builds I've seen, and it has a lot of uses. It *should* be a part of the rules, but since it isn't, it's useful.

[Tanuki Tales]

Intimidating Prowess is the only one there I have a problem with: it's the centerpiece for several solid builds I've seen, and it has a lot of uses. It *should* be a part of the rules, but since it isn't, it's useful.

It's only a center piece because it's not a part of the rules.

[SamBurke]

It's only a center piece because it's not a part of the rules.

Exactly. Since it isn't, they'll have to purchase it... Hm. So the arguments on both sides go: "it should be cheap to make up for the fact that they should have it" vs. "it should be expensive because they'll want to have it", basically?

[Tanuki Tales]

Exactly. Since it isn't, they'll have to purchase it... Hm. So the arguments on both sides go: "it should be cheap to make up for the fact that they should have it" vs. "it should be expensive because they'll want to have it", basically?

Looks like it. :smalltongue:

[Davout1806]

Wow! Awesome work on this!

Is any more work being done on this?

Thanks.

[Tanuki Tales]

Wow! Awesome work on this!

Is any more work being done on this?

Thanks.

I've just been indisposed as of late. Work should resume next week or so.

[Angelalex242]

Did you go through the racial feats yet?

I didn't see Aasimar's stuff up here. I did see Dhampir's though, so I'm wondering why?

[Tanuki Tales]

Did you go through the racial feats yet?

I didn't see Aasimar's stuff up here. I did see Dhampir's though, so I'm wondering why?

I'm going off of the PSRD's feat section. Racial feats come after Combat feats and any that are already done are done because they were under either General or Combat feats on the site.

Edit:

Also, another use for a move action:

A Witch's Cackle Hex is a move action, which extends the duration of several of the class' more potent Hexes by a round.

[Tanuki Tales]

Tier 6
Martial Versatility - If Mastery is T5, I have to make this T6. They are not equal feats.
Martial Weapon Proficiency - Ha! This? Worth a Feat slot? Ha!
Natural Jouster - So niche.
Prone Slinger - Really?



Tier 5
Greater Overrun - Meh.
Improved Overrun - See above.
Manyshot - It's stupid that Favored Enemy applies but not precision damage. Just another way to shaft the Rogue, eh Paizo?
Martial Mastery - I almost want this to be T6. It's ridiculous that combat feats don't already work this way.
Massed Charge - Might be T6.
Medusa's Wrath - Monk.
Missile Shield - This feat is trash and might be T6.
Monastic Legacy - Yes, let's make a feat that just cements the Monk as a 3 level dip!
Moonlight Stalker - Crap feat with too many prerequisites.
Moonlight Stalker Feint - See above.
Moonlight Stalker Master - Concealment is nice, but the prerequisites are so heavy for what this feat gives.
Mounted Archery - Might be T4.
Mounted Onslaught - Meh.
Mounted Skirmisher - Might be T4.
Mounted Shield - Might be T4.
Multiattack - Eh...Monster PCs need love.
Multiweapon Fighting - See above.
Net Adept - I'm assuming this feat is useful in some way.
Net and Trident - Meh.
Net Maneuvering - Meh.
Net Trickery - So many Net feats, so little care.
Nightmare Fist - Niche.
Nightmare Weaver - Ugh. Such a bad feat.
Nightmare Striker - Why the hell is this not just a Drow racial feat? :smallannoyed:
Open Volley - This assumes a very specific flow for combat that may not always be applicable. And probably should just be part of the rules.
Orc Hewer - Eh...kind of useful, but not terribly so.
Orc Weapon Expertise - Meh...
Parting Shot - Bad feat is bad.
Passing Trick - The size requirement is arbitrary and this has too many feat requirements.
Perfect Strike - This doesn't apply to Unarmed Strikes. WTF. Keeping hating on the Monk Paizo. Keep hating on the Monk. :smallannoyed:
Performance Weapon Mastery - Is this any better than T5?
Pin Down - Why can't you get this before level 11?
Pinning Knockout - Monk.
Pinning Rend - Monk.
Piranha Strike - So...it's the Dex version of Power Attack? Might be T4.
Point Blank Master - Might be T4.
Point-Blank Shot - Bad feat is bad.
Precise Strike - Teamwork feat.
Prone Shooter - Meh.
Punishing Kick - Monk.
Pushing Assault - Why would you ever take this feat?




Tier 4
Greater Penetrating Strike - See Penetrating Strike
Improved Precise Shot - Ranged combat needs love, so this isn't T3.
Mobility - This is one of the hallmark T4's.
Monkey Lunge - Reach is nice.
Mounted Combat - Might be T3.
Nimble Striker - This feat isn't half bad.
Outflank - One of the better Teamwork feats.
Paired Opportunists - See above.
Penetrating Strike - DR is already crappy in amounts less than 20, but this feat has its uses.
Performing Combatant - These feats are good, if memory serves.
Pinpoint Targeting - Gained pretty late, but it's useful.
Power Attack - Another hallmark T4.
Precise Shot - Might be T5.


Tier 3
Master Combat Performer - These feats were half-way decent, if memory serves.
Measured Response - This feat is awesome, especially since it never says you can't roll the damage first and choose to use this feat if the result is less than average.
Osyluth Guile - T3 because there's no cap for that Charisma bonus to AC.

[Davout1806]

Awesome! Thanks for getting back to this. I wait with anticipation.

[gr8artist]

So... I guess I can pitch in, but my sense of balance and overall usefulness is weird because my group likes to play tanky-bruiser-melee types, so I tend to lean toward thinking HP damage is a good investment.
Which, I know it's not.
Also, I'm surprisingly unfamiliar with most these feats, so it would take me a while to go through and learn them, then try and give an opinion on balance. I suppose I could pick up where you left off, with combat feats M-P. I shall attempt to make an effort in the near future.

[Tanuki Tales]

So... I guess I can pitch in, but my sense of balance and overall usefulness is weird because my group likes to play tanky-bruiser-melee types, so I tend to lean toward thinking HP damage is a good investment.
Which, I know it's not.
Also, I'm surprisingly unfamiliar with most these feats, so it would take me a while to go through and learn them, then try and give an opinion on balance. I suppose I could pick up where you left off, with combat feats M-P. I shall attempt to make an effort in the near future.

Don't feel bad about it Gr8, I never even heard of most of these feats before I started this project. :smallbiggrin:

[lastoutkast]

This system is amazing. Im play with a DM who wants us to use weapon finesse and point blank shot but I can't seem to find them on here.

[Zireael]

I agree that the system is amazing for working out which feats are useful and which... are not.

[The Vagabond]

This is actually really awesome, and I would like to see if it could be continued- I want to see this thing completed.