Popular Death Gods

[RadagastTheBrow]

There's been some discussion regarding Rich's portrayal of Hel. I thought it might be fun to collect some portrayals of other death gods for comparison, discussion, and to look at the pretty pictures. I'll start with Hades.

Disney's Hades (http://static4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20121001203014/fanfictiondisney/images/1/1c/Hercules-disneyscreencaps_com-451.jpg) was a fun trickster/conqueror. Not much to look at, but all personality and cool hair.

God of War Hades (http://www.manofactionfigures.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/product_full/sites/default/files/hades.jpg) gave you a neat toy in the first game, and tried to kill you in the third game to poor results. I didn't play the third game, so I'm not as familiar with his portrayal there other than getting stabbed and "taunting the god-killing abomination."

Hades also had a role in Xena: Warrior Princess (http://static3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100720001827/warriorprincess/images/5/55/Mb_dArc_PDVD_2310.jpg)and Wonder Woman (http://static3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20061231012641/dcanimated/images/2/23/Hades.jpg), but I'm not familiar with his portrayal there other than what Google Image Search provides.

Final Fantasy also had a couple Hades appearances- in VII, he's a nifty summon (http://images4.fanpop.com/image/photos/17400000/Hades-final-fantasy-17476394-511-383.jpg)with a bad*** cauldron and inflicts tons of status effects on the enemy. In IX, he's a superboss found towards the end of the game (http://static2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130625043635/finalfantasy/images/3/35/FFIX-Hades.png)who provides a nice, tough fight and one of the best shops in the game if you beat him. Notably, he'll also be impressed and kinda freaked if you've already beaten the tougher, more obscure superboss Ozma when you fight him.

[Vinyadan]

Anubis...
Don't ever speak that jackal's name again! (http://youtu.be/yzHJf-am0QY?t=24m48s)

You must be Anubis. I really appreciate your work!
Don't ever speak that jackal's name again! ZOT! (http://youtu.be/unS-7E4CM68?t=1h30m9s)

[RadagastTheBrow]

Anubis...
Don't ever speak that jackal's name again! (http://youtu.be/yzHJf-am0QY?t=24m48s)

You must be Anubis. I really appreciate your work!
Don't ever speak that jackal's name again! ZOT! (http://youtu.be/unS-7E4CM68?t=1h30m9s)

The "ZOT" at the end of that made me think it was being said by Pinky of Pinky and the Brain.

I guess, while we're talking Anubis, there's also his appearance from (http://lounge.moviecodec.com/images/polloption/army-of-anubis-17368.jpg)The Mummy. I don't recall that movie having much of a plot, but it looked cool.

[Sir_Leorik]

In the World of Greyhawk, the Suloise goddess Wee Jas is a goddess of death and magic. She promotes necromancy, and her view on undeath is rather laissez faire. But she is not a monster seeking to reap the souls of the living, like her Flan counterpart, Nerull. Nerull is an absolute monster who wants to wipe out all life and imprison the souls of those killed.

In the "Forgotten Realms" setting, Kelemvor, the True Neutral/Unaligned god of Death, views death and dying as a natural part of life, and sees undeath as a mockery of the suffering that those who die go through. As such Kelemvor hates Undead with a passion. Kelemvor in general is a punch-clock death god, dutifully harvesting souls because someone has to, and he'd rather it be someone with an ounce of compassion than a ruthless death god. (In a sense he isn't that different from DEATH from "Discworld".) Arguably, the worst thing that Kelemvor does is imprison souls that did not worship a deity in the Wall of the Faithless, and even then he has come to accept that this is necessary.

In the 4E "Points of Light" setting, The Raven Queen is an unaligned goddess of death. She guides the souls of the dead through the Shadowfell into a region where they are beyond the reach of even the gods. The only exception are souls the gods claim as petitioners.

Wee Jas is popular among Suloise spellcasters and other parts of Suloise society; death is only one part of her portfolio. Kelemvor has a clergy, and it seems that people in Faerun call upon them for funerals. The Raven Queen is a cryptic goddess, the only member of the 4E Pantheon to have been mortal once (the other being Vecna); she perfers to seek worship among the Shadar-Kai and other inhabitants of the Shadowfell. Nerull is worshipped by the sort of psychos who start death cults.

[Mrc.]

The "ZOT" at the end of that made me think it was being said by Pinky of Pinky and the Brain.

I think you may be referring to ZORT. As evidenced by the conversation:

"There's no such thing as the word ZORT."
"Yes there is Brain. It's TROZ backwards."

[Keltest]

I think you may be referring to ZORT. As evidenced by the conversation:

"There's no such thing as the word ZORT."
"Yes there is Brain. It's TROZ backwards."

no, its

"Tell me Pinky, what is Troz?"
"Why, its ZORT! in the mirror!"

[Mrc.]

no, its

"Tell me Pinky, what is Troz?"
"Why, its ZORT! in the mirror!"

Darn it, I used to know most of that show off by heart. Which is really sad now that I think about it. Still, good times!

[Nerd-o-rama]

Anubis and other deities responsible for judging the dead and ushering them on the path to rebirth were well-respected in Ancient Egypt. Hades, likewise, was generally considered to have gotten the short end of the stick (with his brothers Zeus and Poseidon getting the sky and the sea, respectively), but was venerated and respected almost as much as any Olympian - not only do you not want to tick off the guy who gets to rule you after you die, but he was also the god of material wealth (gold and jewels coming from underground and all).

Fiction varies wildly on how accurately this is portrayed - Hades is a pretty cool guy in Xena, for example, at least compared to ***** like Ares or the various people who try to usurp the underworld. Anubis, meanwhile, is almost constantly butchered, especially in the Mummy films.

And then there's Voudun/Voodoo, where virtually every supernatural being is death-themed, whether good, bad, or just hedonistic. Even fiction usually gets this if they're not just being offensive.

[B. Dandelion]

Anubis had a showing in Gargoyles which was pretty fair-handed. He was a very solemn serious type who simply refused to pay favorites; in his view death was the "ultimate fairness" in that it took rich and poor, young and old, and so on so that everybody was equal in death. He definitely wasn't the villain of the episode -- the whole point of the episode was that death isn't "evil", and the one-shot character who had resented him eventually came around to his way of thinking.

[orrion]

Hades also had a role in Xena: Warrior Princess (http://static3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100720001827/warriorprincess/images/5/55/Mb_dArc_PDVD_2310.jpg)and Wonder Woman (http://static3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20061231012641/dcanimated/images/2/23/Hades.jpg), but I'm not familiar with his portrayal there other than what Google Image Search provides.


As I recall, Hades' role in the Hercules/Xena mythos was mainly benevolent to start. It may have changed (can't remember) when a threat to the gods themselves manifested later in the Xena series. Xena helped him at least once early on when he asked her to bring a guy back who had escaped from Hell using his Helmet of Invisibility, and I seem to remember Hades letting her rescue someone else at one point.

[Kolhammer]

Sokar and Anubis from Stargate come to mind.

[jere7my]

I don't think this thread would be complete without mentioning Pratchett and Gaiman.

[Tiiba]

I don't think this thread would be complete without mentioning Pratchett and Gaiman.

So let me be the first to mention them!

Whait, it doesn't work like that. But I was really hoping I could be the one to bring up the fact that in Pratchett's books, Death saves the world.

[Nerd-o-rama]

So let me be the first to mention them!

Whait, it doesn't work like that. But I was really hoping I could be the one to bring up the fact that in Pratchett's books, Death saves the world.

Repeatedly.

He does seem to be a distinct entity from the gods in that series, though. He's an anthropomorphic personification, but he seems to be on an entirely different scale than, say, Blind Io or The Lady. Or maybe he just takes his job more seriously.

There's also the fact that I can't figure out if you need worshippers to be a god in Discworld or if that only applies to Small Gods that get big.

[Adanedhel]

Because what can the harvest hope for, if not the care of the reaper man?

[BenjCano]

Death drives a pale 1959 Cadillac Eldorado. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1EzU9sLQ6I)

[Jay R]

I understand what you're talking about, but does anybody else have a problem with the concept of a "popular death god"?

[Vinyadan]

I understand what you're talking about, but does anybody else have a problem with the concept of a "popular death god"?

Why, would you prefer a "popular dead goth?" Like, I don't know, Peter Steele? (Or Theoderic the Great?)

[MoonCat]

Because what can the harvest hope for, if not the care of the reaper man?

Discworld fan! I LIKE THIS ONE.

[Tiiba]

Repeatedly.

He does seem to be a distinct entity from the gods in that series, though. He's an anthropomorphic personification, but he seems to be on an entirely different scale than, say, Blind Io or The Lady. Or maybe he just takes his job more seriously.

There's also the fact that I can't figure out if you need worshippers to be a god in Discworld or if that only applies to Small Gods that get big.

Faith was needed by the Hogfather, and also the little fairies that sprouted up when he was killed.

[Manga Shoggoth]

Why, would you prefer a "popular dead goth?"

In all fairness, Gamain's death gets close...

[Goosefeather]

Death in the Discworld (and the popular culture depiction of Death in general) is more of a psychopomp (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopomp), a being that guides the dead to the afterlife. Think Charon rather than Hades.

That said, off the top of my head I can think of four main "categories" death gods could fall into:

1) Gods which themselves cause death and destruction.
2) Gods which guide souls to the afterlife/underworld (psychopomps).
3) Gods which guard the afterlife and determine which afterlife specifically you go to.
4) Gods which rule over the afterlife/underworld.

Obviously there can be overlap - Hel in OotS would be in Category 4, but looking to expand into category 1 via her new vampire servant. It's probably easier for gods falling into categories 2-4 to be portrayed sympathetically than those in category 1, though I don't doubt that there are exceptions out there.

[ChowGuy]

Not a god per se, but this being a web-comic forum, I'm surprised nobody's mention Death from the now unfortunately defunct Down to Earth. He's not good, bad, or particularly involved in running things, and not even a keeper of souls, just a conductor doing a job doesn't particularly like but no one else will take.

Or as he put it in a Schlock Mercenary cameo "Just a tired, old metaphor" (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2000-11-26)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Repeatedly.

He does seem to be a distinct entity from the gods in that series, though. He's an anthropomorphic personification, but he seems to be on an entirely different scale than, say, Blind Io or The Lady. Or maybe he just takes his job more seriously.

There's also the fact that I can't figure out if you need worshippers to be a god in Discworld or if that only applies to Small Gods that get big.

All mythical entities require belief (but then, so does everything else in Discworld. Gravity in Discworld has nothing to do with mass, and everything to do with belief that things fall downwards). When Death is forcefully retired during Reaper Man, belief in death doesn't cease, which is why hundreds of Deaths pop up in replacement.

There is some room for argument that some of the supra-entities, such as Azrael, might not require belief, being more in their nature fundamentals of the Universe. But we have precious little detail to work with.

Also, Gods don't need worshipers, per se. Worship is just a form of belief, which happens to be particularly common for gods. But think about the Lady: it is outright stated that what few fools worship her are quickly killed off. And, yes, because of this she is not considered exactly a god (but then, neither is Fate). But she still lives in Dunmanifestin, as far as we can tell, and she certainly joins the games of the gods.

Grey Wolf

[Nerd-o-rama]

That is true. And the whole point of Small Gods (that becomes a plot point again in Monstrous Regiment) is that worship and belief are two entirely different things, and what gods on the Disc need is the latter.

Perhaps it's the same case with Hel. Even if no one (or "no one") worships her specifically, the whole North surely believes in death, the afterlife, and the queen of the unvalorous dead.

Let's not get into how belief and proof interact. even though in D&D the gods are observationally provable; plenty of people in Discworld admit gods exist without believing in them anyway.

[Sir_Leorik]

Death in the Discworld (and the popular culture depiction of Death in general) is more of a psychopomp (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopomp), a being that guides the dead to the afterlife. Think Charon rather than Hades.

That said, off the top of my head I can think of four main "categories" death gods could fall into:

1) Gods which themselves cause death and destruction.
2) Gods which guide souls to the afterlife/underworld (psychopomps).
3) Gods which guard the afterlife and determine which afterlife specifically you go to.
4) Gods which rule over the afterlife/underworld.

Obviously there can be overlap - Hel in OotS would be in Category 4, but looking to expand into category 1 via her new vampire servant. It's probably easier for gods falling into categories 2-4 to be portrayed sympathetically than those in category 1, though I don't doubt that there are exceptions out there.

For category one, I would place the "Greyhawk" gods Nerull, the Flan god of Death and Destruction; Falazure, the Draconic god of Undeath and Decay; Incabulos, god of Plagues, Sickness, Famine and Nightmares; Erythnul, the Oeridian god of Hate, Malice and Slaughter; Pyremius, the Sueloise god of Fire, Poison and Murder; and Tharizdun, the god who wants to destroy reality for the LOLz; and from the "Forgotten Realms", Cyric, god of Murder, Lies, Intrigue and Deception.

For category two, the 4E, "Points of Light" goddess, The Raven Queen, is the prominent example in D&D that I can think of.

For category three, all of the gods have some role in the Core D&D cosmology's afterlife, except in 4E. As we saw with Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0487.html), the gods, or their Proxies, such as Devas, Eladrin, Devils or Yugoloths, judge whether their followers (or those with matching Alignments) are worthy of entering their Realms, or just entering the appropriate Plane, and becoming a Petitioner.

Essentially, all gods have Petitioners of some sort, and even Devils and Demons try to get their hands on Larvae to turn into new Devils or Demons. However, there are gods, like Hades, Kelemvor and, of course, Hel, who focus almost exclusively on this area.

Kelemvor, from "Forgotten Realms", is an interesting case, since he has a role which overlaps all four categories: he is a bringer of death, but he is also a guide for the dead, a judge for the dead, and he guards the Wall of the Faithless, where the souls of those who didn't worship a god in life are turned into bricks and cemented in, as punishment. (It sucks to be an atheist on Toril. :smalltongue:)

[Greatmoustache]

ryuk (http://www.myanimesource.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Death-Note-Episode-4-light-and-ryuk.jpg) from death note

ryuk is a death god. that is, a being that lives in shinigami (death god) realm, writing mortals' names in his death note (which is a notebook. if you write someone's name, whose face you know, in it the person will die of heart attack in 40 seconds.) the remaining life span is added to the shinigami's. shinigamis can also see the name and remaining life span of humans. therefore they can practically live forever.

anyway, these since the shinigamis have harvested millions of years of life, they just hang around, gambling in infinite numness. ryuk now, is a different fella. he gets bored of this crap. he needs some excitement, see? he casually drops his death note on mortal realm. it's picked up by a genius highschooler called light yagami, who is fed up with crimes all over the world.

ryuk follows light (who is the only person who can see ryuk) around to see what kind of fun stuff he's up to. not to mention, hilarity ensues when the world's greatest detective (no, not that one) gets involved.

[Sir_Leorik]

ryuk (http://www.myanimesource.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Death-Note-Episode-4-light-and-ryuk.jpg) from death note

ryuk is a death god. that is, a being that lives in shinigami (death god) realm, writing mortals' names in his death note (which is a notebook. if you write someone's name, whose face you know, in it the person will die of heart attack in 40 seconds.) the remaining life span is added to the shinigami's. shinigamis can also see the name and remaining life span of humans. therefore they can practically live forever.

anyway, these since the shinigamis have harvested millions of years of life, they just hang around, gambling in infinite numness. ryuk now, is a different fella. he gets bored of this crap. he needs some excitement, see? he casually drops his death note on mortal realm. it's picked up by a genius highschooler called light yagami, who is fed up with crimes all over the world.

ryuk follows light (who is the only person who can see ryuk) around to see what kind of fun stuff he's up to. not to mention, hilarity ensues when the world's greatest detective (no, not that one) gets involved.

So which "world's greatest detective" are you referring to? This one (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/SherlockHolmes)? This one (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Film/SherlockHolmes)? This one (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Franchise/Batman?from=Main.Batman)? Or this one (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Disney/TheGreatMouseDetective)?

[Greatmoustache]

the bats ofcourse. (i sense a poo-storm ahead)

[martianmister]

So which "world's greatest detective" are you referring to? This one (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/SherlockHolmes)? This one (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Film/SherlockHolmes)? This one (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Franchise/Batman?from=Main.Batman)? Or this one (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Disney/TheGreatMouseDetective)?

http://media.melty.fr/article-1289213-ajust_930/sherlock-holmes.jpg

[RadagastTheBrow]

hilarity ensues when the world's greatest detective (no, not that one) gets involved.

Thanks to the Internet, why not both? (http://robynpaterson.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/1296_5b77_750.jpeg)

[veti]

{{Scrubbed}}

[Rogar Demonblud]

For the Hellenes, Hermes was a psychopomp. It was actually his main duty.

The number of people who got put in the stars is vanishingly small. Most of them are animals or things (Scorpio, Cancer, Auriga).

[Sir_Leorik]

the bats ofcourse. (i sense a poo-storm ahead)

Just so I'm getting this correctly:

You mentioned that "the world's greatest detective" was involved in "Death Note", but not "that one".

So is Batman supposed to be "not that one"? And if he isn't "that one", were you referring to Basil (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Disney/TheGreatMouseDetective) all along? :smalltongue:

[jere7my]

Just so I'm getting this correctly:

You mentioned that "the world's greatest detective" was involved in "Death Note", but not "that one".

So is Batman supposed to be "not that one"? And if he isn't "that one", were you referring to Basil (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Disney/TheGreatMouseDetective) all along? :smalltongue:

Batman is the only being whose actual title is "The World's Greatest Detective." If you want to talk about a world's greatest detective who's not Batman, the generally accepted next choice is Sherlock Hemlock.

[t209]

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Faceless_Men
What about these guys, especially if you put a diverse set of slaves in one place (Enough to put Atlantic slave trade to shame)?

[veti]

If you want to talk about a world's greatest detective who's not Batman, the generally accepted next choice is Sherlock Hemlock.

Freudian autocorrect FTW. :smallwink:

Given that Sherlock Holmes is arguably the prototype of all modern superheroes, and doubly so of those who don't have any actual superpowers - it's not surprising there's a resemblance.

[jere7my]

Freudian autocorrect FTW. :smallwink:

No autocorrect (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherlock_Hemlock).

[LibraryOgre]

The Mod Wonder: As a reminder, discussion of real-world religion is against the rules. Please, be aware of the difference between real-world religion and its fictional counterparts.

[ChowGuy]

Batman is the only being whose actual title is "The World's Greatest Detective." If you want to talk about a world's greatest detective who's not Batman, the generally accepted next choice is Sherlock Hemlock.

What, not Clouseau? Oh wait, you said "Detective" not "Defective." :smalltongue:

[RadagastTheBrow]

Given that Sherlock Holmes is arguably the prototype of all modern superheroes, and doubly so of those who don't have any actual superpowers - it's not surprising there's a resemblance.

Wait, I thought the prototype superhero was the Scarlet Pimpernel? Maybe Zorro? I don't know which came first.

[Jay R]

Wait, I thought the prototype superhero was the Scarlet Pimpernel? Maybe Zorro? I don't know which came first.

You cannot find an unambiguous prototype superhero until we all agree on an unambiguous definition of a superhero.

For instance, Sherlock Holmes first appeared in 1887. But Poe's Auguste Dupin is the prototype detective, and he appeared in 1841. Holmes is not a prototype, but a later version.

The first Zorro story was published in 1919. The play The Scarlet Pimpernel was first performed in 1903. He may have been the first masked avenger (unless you count, for instance, Lancelot carrying Sir Kay's shield).

But again, what's a superhero? All the above came after Robin Hood, Lancelot, Orlando, Theseus, Hercules, Thor, Gilgamesh, and countless others.

[Note: before you try to discount the legendary heroes listed above, remember that Thor, Hercules, and Gilgamesh have been members of Marvel's superhero group, the Avengers.]

[Mrc.]

I don't think that Hercules ever joined the Avengers. He definitely is a character in the Marvel universe, and routinely greets Thor by punching him in the face, but he never actually joined the Avengers, to my knowledge.

[Rogar Demonblud]

He did. He left. He rejoined. Et cetera. I think Herc was also a member of the F4 for a bit.

[Vinyadan]

Well, if you want a super hero, let me add Maciste :smallwink: He may have not been the first, but he is one of the few European characters who were born in the XX century and still managed to be popularly regarded as part of the Graeco-Roman heroic world.

And many others, too. From 1914 onward.

http://s16.postimg.org/w8wnv9339/bloopers5129.jpg

As pop death god, I would include Thanatos in Saint Seiya, although I don't think he was very well handled. And, as guardian of the Doors of Hades, Shaka (at least, I believe he was in the Italian version of the anime).

[Griffincat]

The Black Rabbit of Inle from Watership Down.

Death and the guy who decides not to die in Sandman.

The stuff about death in the Abhorsen series by Garth Nix.

Andrew the Angel of Death from Touched by an Angel.

Death in Discworld.

Grim Reaper of Castlevania.

Meet Joe Black.

Grim Reaper in Monty Python's Meaning of Life.

[Jay R]

I don't think that Hercules ever joined the Avengers. He definitely is a character in the Marvel universe, and routinely greets Thor by punching him in the face, but he never actually joined the Avengers, to my knowledge.

He became an Avenger in issue #45, page 8, in Central Park, right before the Super-Adaptoid attacked.

[Storm_Of_Snow]

I don't think this thread would be complete without mentioning Pratchett and Gaiman.
Discworld Death (plus The Grim Squeaker) and Death of The Endless aren't really gods - they don't have worshippers as such. As said, belief kinds of powers Discworld Death, while Endless Death is more a manifestation of entropy (she appears in book 4 of the Books of Magic comic series, at the end of time to claim Destiny of the Endless, and then, as she puts it, turn off the lights and lock the doors to the universe.

Hades is the god of the Underworld, not specifically death. Hopefully you'll all find this link useful:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_death_deities

And, going back to a thread about a death god that supports undead worshippers, perhaps Melinoe would be a suitable candidate?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Discworld Death (plus The Grim Squeaker) and Death of The Endless aren't really gods - they don't have worshippers as such.

Maybe. And then again, maybe not:

The omnipotent eyesight of various supernatural entities is often remarked upon. It is said they can see the fall of every sparrow. And this may be true. But there is only one who is always there when it hits the ground.

As I mentioned above, the only difference is one of degrees; worshipers or lack thereof is not what makes you a god in Discworld. After all, the Duchess of Borogravia didn't become a god, and the entire country worshiped her. And as per the quote above, which initially refers to gods, but end up singling death from the group, suggests that there is no difference, anymore than a Frenchman is no less human for being french.

Grey Wolf

[Vinyadan]

Finally I found the page and I can post this (http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/cast/death.html):smallbiggrin:

[Clistenes]

All mythical entities require belief (but then, so does everything else in Discworld. Gravity in Discworld has nothing to do with mass, and everything to do with belief that things fall downwards). When Death is forcefully retired during Reaper Man, belief in death doesn't cease, which is why hundreds of Deaths pop up in replacement.

There is some room for argument that some of the supra-entities, such as Azrael, might not require belief, being more in their nature fundamentals of the Universe. But we have precious little detail to work with.

Also, Gods don't need worshipers, per se. Worship is just a form of belief, which happens to be particularly common for gods. But think about the Lady: it is outright stated that what few fools worship her are quickly killed off. And, yes, because of this she is not considered exactly a god (but then, neither is Fate). But she still lives in Dunmanifestin, as far as we can tell, and she certainly joins the games of the gods.

Grey Wolf

That is true. And the whole point of Small Gods (that becomes a plot point again in Monstrous Regiment) is that worship and belief are two entirely different things, and what gods on the Disc need is the latter.

Perhaps it's the same case with Hel. Even if no one (or "no one") worships her specifically, the whole North surely believes in death, the afterlife, and the queen of the unvalorous dead.

Let's not get into how belief and proof interact. even though in D&D the gods are observationally provable; plenty of people in Discworld admit gods exist without believing in them anyway.

It all depends on the setting:

-Planescape's Powers need belief to live. It doesn't just empower them, it shapes them. Worship has the effect of making sure that people are reminded all the time of who they are.

-Forgotten Realms' Deities need worship because Ao has established that their power will be dependant on their number of worshippers.

-Greyhawk's Deities can do fine without worship or belief, but worship provides them with an extra power source. Some deities would probably lose a few divine ranks without said worship. Other deities (for example, Boccob, Nerull or Incabulos) don't really care about having many worshippers, but they support their priests so they can advance their portfolios.

-Dragonlance's Deities don't really need worship, but their worshippers are like armies that fight on their behalf.

-Discworld's Gods equally like true believers AND true god-hating atheists, because devotion, hate, love and fear all feed them just fine. What they can't tolerate is indiference (not caring about gods) or mockery (making fun of them).
Of course, in the case of atheists, they will try to keep their hate fresh, which means torturing them. Same for people who worship them out of fear. People who mock them will be hurt to make sure they start hating or fearing them.
People who ignore them, on the other hand, will do just fine unless they openly and loudly declare their beliefs (or lack of them), since gods are too lazy to seek and find them otherwise.


Maybe. And then again, maybe not:


As I mentioned above, the only difference is one of degrees; worshipers or lack thereof is not what makes you a god in Discworld. After all, the Duchess of Borogravia didn't become a god, and the entire country worshiped her. And as per the quote above, which initially refers to gods, but end up singling death from the group, suggests that there is no difference, anymore than a Frenchman is no less human for being french.

Grey Wolf

In Discworld, Divinity and mortal souls don't mix very well. Woship and Belief can empower a mortal but it won't turn it into a god (gods are a species of their own) and most often will destroy it.

-Pharaohs did have divine powers, but they couldn't use said Divinity except under the most extraordinary circunstances. When a Pharaoh died, its Divinitiy left the corpse and migrated to the next Pharaoh, since the people from Djelbeybi believed in the Divne Pharaoh as a concept, not as an individual.

-The Duchess of Borogravia received some degree of Divinity, but it mostly tortured her, since she wasn't a real deity and wasn't ready for that. She heard the prayers all the time, making her mad, and she couldn't use her Divinity to answer them.

-Erzulie Gogol, the Genoan witch, focused the power of worship on objects that she made her zombie slave/lover wear, empowering him, but it destroyed him.

-Dios, the High Priest of Djelbeybi was a recipient of Belief too, and his staff became divinely empowered under extraordinary circunstances.

None of those examples became a true deity.

As for Death and the other Anthropomorphic Personifications, belief shapes them, but they don't need worship. There were Anthropomorphic Personifications of Death for animals before intelligence appeared on Discworld.

[Sir_Leorik]

It all depends on the setting:

-Planescape's Powers need belief to live. It doesn't just empower them, it shapes them. Worship has the effect of making sure that people are reminded all the time of who they are.

Technically, "Planescape's" Powers are the same deities from the main 2E campaign settings. What is different is that on the Outer Planes belief can reshape reality. The Powers tap into that belief to maintain their strength and expand their Realms. Without enough faith Powers could die or be killed off, but it was also possible for dead gods (as well as Orcus, who was dead for most of 2E) to use faith to resurrect themselves.


-Forgotten Realms' Deities need worship because Ao has established that their power will be dependant on their number of worshippers.

That decree by Ao works both ways; the deities need worshipers, and the mortals need to worship a deity. Any mortal who doesn't worship a deity ends up with their soul entombed in Kelemvor's wall after they die.


-Greyhawk's Deities can do fine without worship or belief, but worship provides them with an extra power source. Some deities would probably lose a few divine ranks without said worship. Other deities (for example, Boccob, Nerull or Incabulos) don't really care about having many worshippers, but they support their priests so they can advance their portfolios.

This is highly dependent on which edition you're playing. In 1E and 2E the rules were very similar to those in "Planescape". One demigod who benefited from these rules about faith, was none other than Vecna. Vecna died during his battle with Kas the Bloodyhanded, but he developed a cult that venerated him in the following centuries. That gave Vecna enough power to become a demigod, and he then launched an ambitious plan to steal the power of all the other gods, a plan which backfired spectacularly, stranding Vecna in Ravenloft. Vecna's plan to escape Ravenloft was more successful, and in the process he nearly usurped the Lady of Pain's power, before adventurers expelled him from Sigil (causing Third Edition in the process). Vecna managed to get enough power from that scheme to become a lesser god by the time 3.0 began.

Speaking of "Ravenloft", the various gods worshiped there are described as being more "distant" from their clerics. It is possible the Dark Powers are granting divine spells to Clerics and Druids, or at least acting as intermediaries. Several gods worshiped in Ravenloft have no corresponding god outside the Demiplane of Dread, and some believe that these are manifestations of the Dark Powers.