My players demanded a DMPC by refusing to let an NPC go

[lytokk]

So, in my last game, an NPC cleric cohort character I was running for the players bit the dust, hard.
I had introduced him as a random NPC at one point, and the players loved having him around. When they set off on their quest, they wanted him to come along. First they had to convince him, and then his order to let him go. Generic Cleric of Pelor, and when they made those decisions, I rolled him out for his stats. I didn't want him to be a powerhouse, and took as many steps as I could to avoid it. So, I made him an archer. That way, he could just sit back a little bit, never cause a ton of damage, and provide the party with the ranged support they were lacking (seriously, 1 player refuses to pick up a bow, and he's a dex based psychic warrior). Also gave him the brew potion feat just to try and help the party out a little more.
He ended up in melee, and got his head caved in by an ogre who rolled max damage. Dropped him to -12 hp, and the party took it hard. The game really got quiet and everyone was really upset that he died. I explained that death was going to be a possibility, so everyone really needed to watch themselves. After the battle, the party started trying to come up with ways to bring him back. Once I informed them they were far, far away from any source who could raise him, one of them remembered they had a scroll they hadn't identified yet. It was at that point they all, in unison, wanted it to be a reincarnate scroll, so the druid could bring him back. As far as they were concerned, he's a member of the party. In addition, they wanted him back, and earning full experience, instead of the half xp I had been giving him.
I had intended on him dying at some point, just to reiterate to the players that death could always be a part of the game. I didn't intend to do it then, and I definitely didn't expect them to be so adamant about getting him back.
I want the game to be fun for everyone, so I let the scroll be reincarnate, instead of what it was, I think it was a scroll of mount. They took the amount of money required for the material costs out of the party gold, and cast the spell. I let them know it was a once in a lifetime deal, and it wouldn't happen again, both the scroll and the trading of gold straight for the material components required. They also gave me the best Role-player award for the session in order to help him recover some of that xp loss. (players vote, 100xp x average level of party in xp, can't vote for themselves) In the future, I won't be accepting it again, but it was a nice gesture.

Got a couple of questions/things to think about
1) did I handle this situation properly? They really didn't want to see him die. All of the energy left the room when I said that he was down.

2) the fact they demanded he get full xp from now on and a share of treasure and said they want me to keep playing him basically changed him from cohort NPC to DMPC. I know its a frowned upon practice on these forum, but I've seen it done right and have full confidence I can do it well. I offered to let one of the other players run him, but they liked the personality I gave him and no one else thought they could pull it off. They like getting really into their characters, and feel it would be a distraction to them in order to play him.

3) I know the dangers of having a DMPC in the party, from splitting my attention, to solving problems, to favoritism. Attention is an easy problem for me to address, I don't use him to solve party problems, only provide advice. The favoritism I elected my party to help make sure I keep in check. Told them flat out if they feel I am favoring the DMPC to tell me and I will recheck what I'm doing. Are there any other concerns I should be aware of with DMPCing? And I'm explicitly not looking for advice along the lines of "Don't do it" Its happening, and my players asked for it.

[Akal Saris]

Why think of him as a "DMPC"? Isn't it easier just to think of him as an NPC, who may yet die again but at least he's a valuable member of the team?

[lytokk]

in my mind, the fact that he's getting full xp and now a full cut of the treasure, and is played by me, changes him from NPC to GMPC.

[OldTrees1]

in my mind, the fact that he's getting full xp and now a full cut of the treasure, and is played by me, changes him from NPC to GMPC.

Well the players want the character around so you were wise in not stopping them getting him back.

You are knowledgeable of the potential pitfalls and want to avoid them.

Your view of the NPC (quoted above) does not seem problematic.

Looks good!

[YossarianLives]

It should be fine if you play it right. In one my campaigns I've done it and it worked out surprisingly well. You just have to be careful for instance the parties companion in this case was useful but had many disadvantages. For such as being a massive coward, being built quite badly and being a level below the party. It worked out very well the DMPC helped but not to much and it still left plenty of room for the players to shine.

[Red Fel]

Got a couple of questions/things to think about
1) did I handle this situation properly? They really didn't want to see him die. All of the energy left the room when I said that he was down.

Tricky to say. On the one hand, it can be really painful to lose a character the party has come to love. On the other, nobody should have plot armor. On the other, you made it abundantly clear that there will be no more second chances.

I think you did alright here. I think that qualification - that it's a one time deal - put the matter into perspective. I also think that what you need to do now is play this NPC more like a character, and try more actively to keep him from getting murdered.


2) the fact they demanded he get full xp from now on and a share of treasure and said they want me to keep playing him basically changed him from cohort NPC to DMPC. I know its a frowned upon practice on these forum, but I've seen it done right and have full confidence I can do it well. I offered to let one of the other players run him, but they liked the personality I gave him and no one else thought they could pull it off. They like getting really into their characters, and feel it would be a distraction to them in order to play him.

Bold for emphasis. Running a DMPC is not automatically the sign of an evil or incompetent DM. Further, it seems clear that the players actually want this, as opposed to having it thrust upon them. The fact that (1) you actively sought to keep it from becoming a powerhouse, (2) you were willing to let it die, and (3) your players insisted that it come back, shows me that you have what it takes to run this character responsibly.

From the sound of it, the character adds to the players' experience, rather than detracts. So I think you may have one of those rare situations where a DMPC is entirely appropriate.


3) I know the dangers of having a DMPC in the party, from splitting my attention, to solving problems, to favoritism. Attention is an easy problem for me to address, I don't use him to solve party problems, only provide advice. The favoritism I elected my party to help make sure I keep in check. Told them flat out if they feel I am favoring the DMPC to tell me and I will recheck what I'm doing. Are there any other concerns I should be aware of with DMPCing? And I'm explicitly not looking for advice along the lines of "Don't do it" Its happening, and my players asked for it.

The key concerns come with regard to preparation. Basically, it works like this. Unless you're using a random encounter table, you (the DM) know generally what's going to happen to the PCs over the course of a given day. The players generally do not know this, with the exception of the obvious (e.g. if they're going to the dragon's lair, they're probably fighting a dragon at some point). Thus, the PCs' preparation may be somewhat scattered, more "utility belt" than "focused on a specific result."

A DMPC walks a fine line. If you (the DMPC) prepare no spells or abilities that would help the party in dealing with the obstacles that you (the DM) have planned, it's obvious what you're doing and it kind of stinks. But if you (the DMPC) prepare any spells or abilities that would help, it reads like your DMPC has peeked at the DM's notes, which is cheating. No way to win.

Now, a Cleric Archer can function, if you've build him to be a utility source. Having a history of preparing buffs or archery-boosting abilities means he's unlikely to deviate from that substantially; the fact that his usual preparations don't change much from day to day is going to help you avoid the difficulty I mentioned above. But it's something you have to keep in mind.

Basically, apart from that, it's simply a case of avoiding Mary Sue syndrome. Don't have all the answers. Don't have all the solutions. Don't solve all the riddles. Don't do all the negotiations. (Or, really, any - NPCs talking to NPCs gets old.) Don't outperform the party in combat. Don't outperform the party in magic. Don't outperform the party at the Battle of the Bands. Don't outperform the party on Guitar Hero. Most importantly, don't give this character plot armor - be very clear that next time, absent a proper Resurrection, will be the last time.

[Joe the Rat]

Right now you've already done the best thing possible: He is the least plot-centric member of the party, and you have absolutely no attachment to him. That right there means he's not the DMPC in the usual bad DMPC way.

Given how badly they wanted him back, your Generic Cleric has become something of a fan favorite/team mascot. I'd say it was good to resurrect reincarnate him, particularly given the resources and prayers and willfulness to bring him back (read: xp donated). I can see this playing out in the world, the party gathering around their fallen comrade, with much weeping and wailing and wishing and wanting, drawing forth everything they could hoping for that bit of luck, that miracle that they could bring their young companion back.

You've told them it was a one-time thing. Having some sort of spirit show up and deliver that exact promise would have been an added touch.


Now my question is, what did he come back as? Half the fun of reincarnation is that you don't know what you'll end up with.

[Bullet06320]

consider it a compliment that your players like your npcs, obvious your doing something right in the designing of them and running of them.
and it appears your players want you to have the fun of a character to play aswell, so just roll with it

and scrolls don't cost material components to cast, that's already paid for at the time of creation. (but I can see you making them pay the cost to upgrade the unidentified scroll to what they wanted it to be)

[lytokk]

Human to half-elf. Was a little dissapointed when I rolled that. At least the gender roll kept him in the same spot. Did not want to go through that again.

[Brookshw]

Players, go figure. They hate the guy you think they'd love and adopt the one you think they'd hate. Roll with it, all in all sounds fine and like you handled it well.

[Tevesh]

Make someone take Leadership and give the cleric to that person?

You still control them, they have a say and apparently the PCs care about him.

[squiggit]

When people complain about DMPCs usually they complain about a few things in particular

-He's thrust upon the party regardless of what they think.

-He tends to 'win the game' by himself or with minimal party support.

-He steals the plot to the point that the game becomes unsettlingly masturbatory.

Since you're doing none of that you should be fine. If anything the only worry you might have is annoying players by making him too irrelevant.

[JusticeZero]

Yeah. You're doing pretty well.. If there's any issues, try to hand off running the NPC to the players, though, as much as possible.

[cosmicAstrogazr]

The last game I played in, there were a couple of NPCs that the party as a whole got really attached to, and refused to let go, to the point of spending a significant amount of money to get one of them rezzed. Nothing wrong with DMPCs if it's done right, and the fact that the party wanted him back is a sign that you're probably doing it right. :smallsmile:

[Chronos]

In general, having a DMPC who's too significant is usually a bad idea.

But note the weasel words. In this case, it sounds like keeping him around made the game more fun, and the answer that keeps the game more fun is always the right answer.

[RedMage125]

2) the fact they demanded he get full xp from now on and a share of treasure and said they want me to keep playing him basically changed him from cohort NPC to DMPC. I know its a frowned upon practice on these forum, but I've seen it done right and have full confidence I can do it well. I offered to let one of the other players run him, but they liked the personality I gave him and no one else thought they could pull it off. They like getting really into their characters, and feel it would be a distraction to them in order to play him.

3) I know the dangers of having a DMPC in the party, from splitting my attention, to solving problems, to favoritism. Attention is an easy problem for me to address, I don't use him to solve party problems, only provide advice. The favoritism I elected my party to help make sure I keep in check. Told them flat out if they feel I am favoring the DMPC to tell me and I will recheck what I'm doing. Are there any other concerns I should be aware of with DMPCing? And I'm explicitly not looking for advice along the lines of "Don't do it" Its happening, and my players asked for it.

You seem to be aware of the pitfalls and dangers of an improperly handled DMPC, which makes it seem like you are less likely to fall into them yourself. DMPCs are usually problems when the DM doesn't realize what the potential pitfalls are (especially spotlight-hogging).

For my part, the one time I've included a DMPC was in a 4e game, and we just didn't have enough players. The party needed a melee striker, and I made a Githzerai Avenger of Pelor. He took no social skills as trained skills, and he rarely-if ever-spoke. Githzerai are odd and kind of monastic anyway. So a more or less silent Githzerai wasn't that unusual. I was running the Scales of War, which is pretty much built assuming a party of 5, and the party needed that little extra boost in damage. He was there to help with the damage output, and that's it. He had almost no personality, and Avengers, even though they're strikers, don't put out phenomenal numbers that outshone anyone else.

you seem like you'll do alright

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

The general rule of thumb here is, be responsive to the players. If they want you to play a GMPC, then sure. But once they start pushing back, I'd tone him down...

And hey, at least now that you control him he can stay in the back lines.

[Oko and Qailee]

The problem with DMPC's is when DMs use them to control the game. If a DMPC is making party decisions and stuff then it reduces player input, because they get the feeling the DMPC is right.

This doesn't seem like it. This seems like you built a character that the players really like. Whatever you were doing keep doing it, because you obviously did something right with this NPC/DMPC.

[The Insanity]

Regardless of if it's the bad or good kind of DMPC, they wanted it. That it's the good kind is just a bonus.

[lytokk]

Well, its good to hear that I'm not making some sort of horrible mistake with this whole thing. All of it being said though, the cleric is WAAY undergeared. I've been tailoring treasure to match the party's wants and needs, and hadn't even put in an inkling of what this guy could use. I'll just sprinkle something into the next bunch of treasure rolls for him.

[Adverb]

lytokk,

It sounds to me like you ran a good session and put out a great character that your players really enjoyed. This is all great, here.

[Firechanter]

Yeah, since the players want it, it's all green. It's a nice change of pace, for as Shamus Young once said so aptly about DMPCs,
you need to realize that the players will treat this character like a bazooka: the NPC will become a weapon used to solve a problem in the bloodiest and most expedient manner possible, and then discarded without ceremony.

^^

Reminds me, btw, of one campaign where an NPC (who was at no point ever a member of the party, just a rather unimportant, but friendly character) got abducted by the Evil ones, and we the players decided that this would not stand, and gave chase to hell and beyond, until we finally got him back (and eradicated the entire colossal fortress of the Evils in the progress).

[Drachasor]

So this Cleric mostly does healing or does he do anything else? I imagine that would be a big reason to want him around -- let's the players do fun stuff.

I think you handled it well. There's nothing wrong with a non-disruptive, non-Mary-Sue DMPC. The best ones are the ones that largely sit back and let the PCs do their thing.

[Stoneback]

If they want him back, and they invest resources in bringing him back, what's he problem?

I agree though- let the players run him as much as possible, and don't make many changes to his prepared spells from day to day.

[lytokk]

Mostly healing, a little buffing, and archery support. And undead turning. Before I even introduced the guy I had decided undead were going to play a big part in the campaign, so that might be a bigger reason the party wanted him along. Oh, and potion making.

[killem2]

Bold for emphasis. Running a DMPC is not automatically the sign of an evil or incompetent DM. Further, it seems clear that the players actually want this, as opposed to having it thrust upon them. The fact that (1) you actively sought to keep it from becoming a powerhouse, (2) you were willing to let it die, and (3) your players insisted that it come back, shows me that you have what it takes to run this character responsibly.

Careful Red Fel,

Around here, awesome DMPCs do not exist.

:smallamused:

But yeah, great story :). I made a crazy focused specialist evoker gnome once, that had such a rich back story, and hardly contributed anything because he loved his "reserve of strength" feat. haha

He died, my players didn't miss him, probably because they knew it was coming.

There are no bad Dungeon Master/Game Master Player Characters, only bad Dungeon Masters/Game Masters.