Scenario advice in a PF RHoD game

[Fooliscious]

First off, I've read the handbook. This thread is for advice regarding a situation that has cropped up that's a bit more specific.

I have two things I'd like advice on.

Part 1:
Miha Serrani has been hilarious for me. I'm letting a girl who really doesn't know the game roleplay her, while I take care of the number work. I gave her a few sorcerer levels(as she has been legitimately helping the party in some encounters) and the fey bloodline to make her a bit more useful casting wise.

Some info on her if you are interested.
The party picked her up at a bunch of raided wagons. She has the appearance of a 5 year old girl. Upon seeing the PC's she started blasting goblins left and right, and the PC's rushed right to her aid. Since then she has been poisoning their food, reporting their movements via sending scrolls, casting inappropriate spells(Unnatural Lust with herself as the target) upon our halfling rogue(our pally nearly skewered him), along with other harmless 5 year old hijinx like turning peoples hair colors with prestidigitation and goofy child like illusions. They know she has magic, but she has kept to level one spells and cantrips. The girl has been roleplaying her as a scared child who just lost her parents and is clinging to the pally(who is a sucker) like the last safe place on Earth.

Miha has managed to keep her secret the entire time, via nondetection spells and clever illusions. However last game the party was approaching the Lair of the Ghostlord, having picked up the phylactery at Rhest. Miha knows about the phylactery and finally made her move.

The night before they made it there, Miha cast an illusion to fool the pc carrying the macguffin's omnipresent/omniobservant/never sleeping faerie dragon familiar(screw those things, seriously) into thinking it's master was alone and asleep. Under the illusion, Miha got a suggestion off on the PC and convinced him that she should hold onto the phylactery. The reasoning was that no one would expect the child to be carrying it. She also told him it would be best if he forgot this conversation, however I gave another will save to resist that bit and he did.

I ruled that the reasoning behind the suggestion would last past the spells duration, which ends as soon as the goal is accomplished. This really annoyed the player, along with my deceiving of the familiar(which I admit I hand waved cuz I'm sick of the thing being everywhere no matter what). He thinks that as soon as he handed it over he should of snapped back to normal and offed her. That just seemed silly to me. Did I overstep the bounds of a Suggestion spell?

Also, the paladin has this gem of a curse from some oracle levels. The pally has told Miha that she will take care of and protect her. What are the limits on this? If the party turns on Miha the pally is in for a bad time. Can she mercy away the sickness effect?
Legalistic

Source Pathfinder Player Companion: Blood of Fiends

The shackles of Hell impose savage consequences should you violate a covenant, but also imbue you with remarkable guile.

Effect

Whenever you break your word (either purposefully or unintentionally), you become sickened for 24 hours or until you meet your obligation, whichever comes first. However, once per day, you can make a vow to yourself that grants a +4 morale bonus on any one roll you make while trying to fulfill a promise made to another individual.

Part 2:
The party just offed Varanthian, and Miha vanished during the combat. The Red Hand forces got Varanthian's warning before she died. I'm at a bit of a loss as to how to proceed. Miha is going to give the phylactery to the Ulwai inside. What's to stop her from ordering the Ghostlord to off the party(I made him so that it would be a very simple task)? I would assume Ulwai of all people would have the means to damage the phylactery. Or would the Ghostlord just bum rush Ulwai and try to disable her quickly.

Should Miha join the fray against the party? I was kind of playing with the idea that she legit joins up with the party if she gets knocked around a bit. Or should she bolt with the phylactery back to the main horde? This would make the PC's trip pointless and royally piss off the Ghostlord, he's known they have been coming with the phylactery for a good while.

Any and all advice is appreciated, thanks!

[DrDeth]

This might end very badly.

[Fooliscious]

Yeah, I see a couple of dead ends that I want to avoid. I want to do it with some plausibility however.

[DrDeth]

See, the Players have had the NPC kinda foisted on them. This makes the betrayal sorta a **** move.

[(Un)Inspired]

First off, Almost everything you've run so far sounds awesome. Thats great that your new player has been jerking around your pcs.

Your Paladin doesn't need to worry about the terms of his curse because his covenant was already broken by Miha. He vowed to protect the little girl that miha was pretending to be.

When it turns out that Miha isn't the person that he made his vow towards, the vow no longer exists.

You really shouldn't have cheated pc with the dragon familiar. If you didn't want him to have such a vigilant compatriot then you shouldn't have let him had it in the first place.

You did over step the boundaries of the suggestion spell. This wouldn't be a problem if all your players were ok with it. Because you upset a player, it's probably not ok that you did it. It's probably too late to go back and rectify the situation however.

Why doesn't the ghostlord just divorce Ulwai from life as soon as he knows shes got the phylactery. I don't think the paladin can let Miha join the party and not fall as a paladin unfortunately.

[Axinian]

I think you did overstep the bounds of the spell, at least according to how it's written. (http://paizo.com/prd/spells/suggestion.html) "the spell ends when the subject finishes what it was asked to do." In order to make the reasoning stick, I think a Bluff check on Miha's part would be required.

I agree that the paladin isn't actually in danger of being sickened on account of the fact that the pact was made under false pretenses.

I'm... not sure what you're problem with the faerie dragon familiar is. They have darkvision... ok. But being immune to Sleep does not mean that the creatures doesn't sleep. It means they're immune to sleep EFFECTS (http://paizo.com/prd/monsters/creaturetypes.html). Dragon's gotta sleep sometime. And a Perception of +8 is not very high...


Why doesn't the ghostlord just divorce Ulwai from life as soon as he knows shes got the phylactery. I don't think the paladin can let Miha join the party and not fall as a paladin unfortunately.

I think this course of action for the Ghostlord is likely. The whole point in keeping the phylactery away from him was so he couldn't do just this. I think Miha can join the party, however, if the Paladin roleplays well enough to get Miha to want to redeem herself.

[(Un)Inspired]

I would love to hear that Miha gets redeemed and joins the party (maybe forms a woody Allen relationship with the paladin...) I'm don't *think that the paladin code would let her into the party unless she did some seriously rapid redeeming though.

I'm all for just using the paladin code as a guideline as opposed to a trick to punish your paladin player however.

[Fooliscious]

See, the Players have had the NPC kinda foisted on them. This makes the betrayal sorta a **** move.

They've known something was up with her the whole time, just not in game.


First off, Almost everything you've run so far sounds awesome. Thats great that your new player has been jerking around your pcs.

Your Paladin doesn't need to worry about the terms of his curse because his covenant was already broken by Miha. He vowed to protect the little girl that miha was pretending to be.

When it turns out that Miha isn't the person that he made his vow towards, the vow no longer exists.

You really shouldn't have cheated pc with the dragon familiar. If you didn't want him to have such a vigilant compatriot then you shouldn't have let him had it in the first place.

You did over step the boundaries of the suggestion spell. This wouldn't be a problem if all your players were ok with it. Because you upset a player, it's probably not ok that you did it. It's probably too late to go back and rectify the situation however.

Why doesn't the ghostlord just divorce Ulwai from life as soon as he knows shes got the phylactery. I don't think the paladin can let Miha join the party and not fall as a paladin unfortunately.

Glad you are enjoying her, I really wanted to make her relevant. The girl playing her has been doing a great job, definitely been a high point of the game.

The Ghostlord has been scrying on the people who originally found the phylactery. The box it's in is warded from scrying. So he won't really be able to tell they no longer have it, at least not in time. They are at his front door after all.

The hand waving with the familiar wasn't all that outrageous honestly. Outside of interacting with the illusion covering them(which it didn't), how would it know anything is up?

Like I mentioned, Ulwai has to have some sort of one up on the Ghostlord. Knowing how to hurt his phylactery and being able to do so sounds like a good preventative.

My pally is gonna be happy to hear that lol.


I think you did overstep the bounds of the spell, at least according to how it's written. (http://paizo.com/prd/spells/suggestion.html) "the spell ends when the subject finishes what it was asked to do." In order to make the reasoning stick, I think a Bluff check on Miha's part would be required.

I agree that the paladin isn't actually in danger of being sickened on account of the fact that the pact was made under false pretenses.

I'm... not sure what you're problem with the faerie dragon familiar is. They have darkvision... ok. But being immune to Sleep does not mean that the creatures doesn't sleep. It means they're immune to sleep EFFECTS (http://paizo.com/prd/monsters/creaturetypes.html). Dragon's gotta sleep sometime. And a Perception of +8 is not very high...



I think this course of action for the Ghostlord is likely. The whole point in keeping the phylactery away from him was so he couldn't do just this. I think Miha can join the party, however, if the Paladin roleplays well enough to get Miha to want to redeem herself.

The problem I have with the suggestion spell as written is that without some lingering effect or mind-wankery, it's just a weaker charm person that takes up a level 4 spell slot. He was compelled to give the item over, he wasn't really compelled to agree with the reasoning. Miha would kill him in a bluff check hands down, but then he'd get his dragon to make the check for him.

The dragon has been a constant thorn in my side. It does all of his diplomacy, all of his perceiving, and is everywhere, all the time, watching everything. It's killed off a lot of surprises which has made the game less fun. He's done a lot of crap to twink out the damn thing too.

The more I think about it the more I'm liking Miha's redemption. Aranea's aren't evil by default, and the pally in particular has been taking good care of her.

[Fooliscious]

I would love to hear that Miha gets redeemed and joins the party (maybe forms a woody Allen relationship with the paladin...) I'm don't *think that the paladin code would let her into the party unless she did some seriously rapid redeeming though.

I'm all for just using the paladin code as a guideline as opposed to a trick to punish your paladin player however.

The Paladin's oracle curse is really hard to apply the negatives too. It's pretty much free oracle levels for the most part. However I did get her words nearly in writing this time, so I want her to suffer the negative effects of her curse at some point. This seems like one of the few times I could.

[Coidzor]

Congratulations. You've just taught your players to kill not only any women they encounter, but children too. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNAk39Jm88Q) :smalltongue:


(maybe forms a woody Allen relationship with the paladin...)


Dude. Not cool.

Edit:


First off, I've read the handbook. This thread is for advice regarding a situation that has cropped up that's a bit more specific.

I have two things I'd like advice on.

Part 1:
Miha Serrani has been hilarious for me. I'm letting a girl who really doesn't know the game roleplay her, while I take care of the number work. I gave her a few sorcerer levels(as she has been legitimately helping the party in some encounters) and the fey bloodline to make her a bit more useful casting wise.

Some info on her if you are interested.
The party picked her up at a bunch of raided wagons. She has the appearance of a 5 year old girl. Upon seeing the PC's she started blasting goblins left and right, and the PC's rushed right to her aid. Since then she has been poisoning their food, reporting their movements via sending scrolls, casting inappropriate spells(Unnatural Lust with herself as the target) upon our halfling rogue(our pally nearly skewered him), along with other harmless 5 year old hijinx like turning peoples hair colors with prestidigitation and goofy child like illusions. They know she has magic, but she has kept to level one spells and cantrips. The girl has been roleplaying her as a scared child who just lost her parents and is clinging to the pally(who is a sucker) like the last safe place on Earth.

Miha has managed to keep her secret the entire time, via nondetection spells and clever illusions. However last game the party was approaching the Lair of the Ghostlord, having picked up the phylactery at Rhest. Miha knows about the phylactery and finally made her move.

The night before they made it there, Miha cast an illusion to fool the pc carrying the macguffin's omnipresent/omniobservant/never sleeping faerie dragon familiar(screw those things, seriously) into thinking it's master was alone and asleep. Under the illusion, Miha got a suggestion off on the PC and convinced him that she should hold onto the phylactery. The reasoning was that no one would expect the child to be carrying it. She also told him it would be best if he forgot this conversation, however I gave another will save to resist that bit and he did.

I ruled that the reasoning behind the suggestion would last past the spells duration, which ends as soon as the goal is accomplished. This really annoyed the player, along with my deceiving of the familiar(which I admit I hand waved cuz I'm sick of the thing being everywhere no matter what). He thinks that as soon as he handed it over he should of snapped back to normal and offed her. That just seemed silly to me. Did I overstep the bounds of a Suggestion spell?

To me? Yes. Especially because a 5 year old child who can use magic and thinks up that plan is inherently suspicious, especially after knowing that the child tried to use magic to make them forget that the suggestion was made and that the phylactery was given to the girl.

Of course, how on earth you planned to deal with them tearing the encampment apart when they realized the phylactery was missing and the paladin had forgotten where it was and them naturally finding it in her possession is beyond me.


Part 2:
The party just offed Varanthian, and Miha vanished during the combat. The Red Hand forces got Varanthian's warning before she died. I'm at a bit of a loss as to how to proceed. Miha is going to give the phylactery to the Ulwai inside. What's to stop her from ordering the Ghostlord to off the party(I made him so that it would be a very simple task)? I would assume Ulwai of all people would have the means to damage the phylactery. Or would the Ghostlord just bum rush Ulwai and try to disable her quickly.

Letting the Ghostlord know that you've got his phylactery while you're anywhere near where he can reach quickly is a bad idea unless you're potent enough to destroy it before he and his ghosts can ruin your day.

Ulwai to the best of my recollection, as written, does not have the capability to really do that. She *might* be able to bluff that she can, but I don't believe she'd *want* the Ghostlord to know the phylactery was so close to him unless she had no other recourse. Really, she'd want to get the phylactery back to the horde in secret as another feather in her cap.


Should Miha join the fray against the party? I was kind of playing with the idea that she legit joins up with the party if she gets knocked around a bit. Or should she bolt with the phylactery back to the main horde? This would make the PC's trip pointless and royally piss off the Ghostlord, he's known they have been coming with the phylactery for a good while.

Any and all advice is appreciated, thanks!

Obviously you shouldn't engineer any situations where the PCs have no agency and are just screwed. That's a bad plan.

[Fooliscious]

Miha isn't actually 5, that's just her appearance. She's a fully grown aranea working for the horde. The PC that was carrying the phylactery was keeping it in a haversack, so it would be hard to notice that it was immediately missing. Not that its a problem anyway at the moment cause the pc knows where it's at. The way the suggestion was worded was to not let ANYBODY know that Miha now had it, as is the fewer who know she has it, the better.

It's making more and more sense to not let the Ghostlord know the phylactery is anywhere near him. Thanks.

I'm not going to force the decision on them. If they wanna smite, she gonna get smote. I am going to give for a pause in the combat for them to have a discussion though.

[Coidzor]

Miha isn't actually 5, that's just her appearance.

And starting up a relationship with her in the guise of a 5 year old is squicky, as you'd already covered when you tried to use magic on the halfling PC. :smalltongue:

[(Un)Inspired]

And starting up a relationship with her in the guise of a 5 year old is squicky, as you'd already covered when you tried to use magic on the halfling PC. :smalltongue:

Squickiness makes stories interesting

[Fooliscious]

And starting up a relationship with her in the guise of a 5 year old is squicky, as you'd already covered when you tried to use magic on the halfling PC. :smalltongue:

Tried? She succeeded lol. Everyone had a laugh at that. It only lasts a round, and the rogue has zero magical know how, so he was just as wtf as the rest.

The whole idea was to cause tension and unrest in the party. It worked, cause no one trusts the rogue. In character at least.

[Coidzor]

Tried? She succeeded lol. Everyone had a laugh at that. It only lasts a round, and the rogue has zero magical know how, so he was just as wtf as the rest.

The whole idea was to cause tension and unrest in the party. It worked, cause no one trusts the rogue. In character at least.

Better to say got the halfling to try to have sex with her, yes.

Is the halfling rogue suffering from abysmal mental ability scores or does the party not have any casters other than the Paladin and he's never been around magic aside from her character? Because that reaction doesn't make any sense to me even without ranks in spellcraft.

[Fooliscious]

I think you are misunderstanding what the spell does. http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/spells/unnaturalLust.html

No physical harm done, just maybe a lot of slobbery kisses. The pally was in the next room, and burst in as soon as she heard the scream.

The rogue's will is pretty terrible, and he was alone in a room with her(orchestrated by her). He knows something was weird, but he couldn't pin it on Miha

[3WhiteFox3]

What non-detection spells is she using? And just how high a level is she, I don't think it's fair to give her more levels and use those levels to screw the party if they don't have any good way of countering it. I as a player also hate it when I am suspicious and role play my character as suspicious, but am strong-armed into believing that rather ridiculous simply because of a high bluff skill. Your characters should be suspicious about any character who is starting far below the minimum age for adventuring.

Basically, screwing over the players without giving them a way of noticing something is wrong is bad GMing. Spellcraft checks, intelligence checks, spells, circumstance bonuses to sense motive (She is in deep cover, any minor slip up should be noticed because the party is in close contact with her.) something should help the party out. Give the party some advantage, don't just stick them with disadvantage after disadvantage, that's just going to cause friction and is going to make the players frustrated. And no, having the sorcerer helping them a little is not sufficient advantage for completely screwing them over in the long-run. Not even close.

Yes, the suggestion was out of line, once he gave it to the mole, he should have realized something was up.

[Coidzor]

I think you are misunderstanding what the spell does. http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/spells/unnaturalLust.html

No physical harm done, just maybe a lot of slobbery kisses. The pally was in the next room, and burst in as soon as she heard the scream.

The rogue's will is pretty terrible, and he was alone in a room with her(orchestrated by her). He knows something was weird, but he couldn't pin it on Miha

Alone with magic-user. Knows character is magic-user. Has been around use of magic before. Suddenly filled with a lust and compulsion to act upon it that he could not resist. The lust immediately went away afterward.

Does not suspect magic.

Must be something wrong with character.