Hel isn't interested in the Gates?

[DeadMG]

If Durkula has all of Durkon's memories, it seems to me like he should know about the Gates, and it's the kind of critical intel he would pass on to Hel.

So it seems rather odd to me that their primary concern seems to be the dwarves and Thor, rather than stopping Xykon. You'd think that seizing and controlling the Gates would be top priority for Hel. Even if Hel herself doesn't have a nasty plan for them, you could see the need to defend them from anyone else.

[Gift Jeraff]

"Finally bringing this world to ruin" seems to be her primary goal. I imagine that involves the Rifts somehow.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Hel says she plans to "bring ruin to the world". This could possibly involve unleashing the Snarl. Her plan also seems to be on a tight schedule, as the High Priest of Hel has to be on time to carry out Hel's orders- which could be referring to the fact that Xykon and Redcloak will probably be beginning their ritual soon

[Forikroder]

all the gods are aware of the gates, yet dont seem to care taht somoene is destroying them

either A) they dont think that destroying the gates is enough to release the snarl or B) they think that even if he is released theyll be able to seal him again easily enogh

[snowblizz]

B) they think that even if he is released theyll be able to seal him again easily enogh

They don't think, they know they can*. They already did it once before. It's just that it would suck really hard for everyone already living when the world is unmade first.

*AFAWK at any rate, at some point one always runs into "do the gods know everything, really" and "have they told everything, really"

[genderlich]

The Snarl destroys the souls of those it kills. I would assume that as the goddess of the underworld, Hel would prefer to bring the souls of the dead into her domain, so I wouldn't assume she wants to release the Snarl at all.

[Particle_Man]

Yeah but Thor doesn't get destroyed souls either, and Hel might just be petty enough to want Thor to be sad he doesn't get his share of souls, even if it means she doesn't get her share of souls.

[ben-zayb]

So an evil god wants to control at least one other god by possibly using the Snarl, which somehow involves having a high level cleric and subtle control of an undead body? That sounds strikingly familiar.

EDIT: said undead body's soul is also kept under the watch of the evil god's faction

[Particle_Man]

Although if control of the gate (as opposed to destroying it) is the goal, won't Hel also need a powerful magic-user? OMG maybe the necromancer spirit that escaped from V when V made the deal with the 3 fiends!

[Meph]

I see in this thread the possibility to ask a question I got a few ago: why did Hel even asked Durkula what was of Durkon?
First, linear answer: because she didn't know.
Second, probably superfluous answer: because she cared.
But, consideration: is she didn't know that, then I (maying be wrong) can assume that she isn't so aware about the events' fact at all. And so, that se still doesn't know anything about the Snarl at all (following the hypothesis that she was born after this world's creation and so could be unaware of things as the Drak One in his beginning as god was).

[Edric O]

You know, I'm really starting to wonder why there isn't some kind of all-out war between the gods happening now. I mean, Hel is the second god that we've seen taking an active interest in the Gates and sending out a High Priest to do something with them. Counting the IFCC, we've now got three divine/extraplanar factions involved in this thing.

Even more importantly, Hel probably knows that the followers of the Dark One are after the Gates. Durkula has access to all of Durkon's memories, including the ones about a huge hobgoblin army assaulting a city for the explicit purpose of securing a Gate, and I'm sure Hel is intelligent enough to figure out that the god of the goblinoids is involved somehow.

Now, is it really possible that this epic struggle involving entire armies, some of the most high-level mortals on the material plane, and three divine/extraplanar entities - remains unknown to the rest of the gods? What more do they need, Tarquin writing "YOUR FELLOW GODS ARE TRYING TO CONTROL THE SNARL GATES" in giant flaming letters across the desert?

So... are the other gods really so blind or uncaring that they can't figure out what's going on or don't plan to do anything about it? Or, if they are not, why isn't every High Priest in the world getting direct divine orders to head to Kraagor's Gate right about now?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Another interesting question to ask ourselves is, if the gods are aware of the rifts, why don't they send angels or something to protect them? The gods seem fairly unconcerned that someone might use the gates for evil.

[Forikroder]

You know, I'm really starting to wonder why there isn't some kind of all-out war between the gods happening now. I mean, Hel is the second god that we've seen taking an active interest in the Gates and sending out a High Priest to do something with them. Counting the IFCC, we've now got three divine/extraplanar factions involved in this thing.

we dont know that she cares about the gates actually and the |IFCC are playing it low key

all this points to IMO is that the gods are aware that the snarl is no longer a threat, that being locked inside the prison for so long "starved" it out and its no longer a factor

[Breccia]

I see in this thread the possibility to ask a question I got a few ago: why did Hel even asked Durkula what was of Durkon?
First, linear answer: because she didn't know.

Very likely true. D&D deities are rarely portrayed as omniscient.


Even more importantly, Hel probably knows that the followers of the Dark One are after the Gates. Durkula has access to all of Durkon's memories, including the ones about a huge hobgoblin army assaulting a city for the explicit purpose of securing a Gate, and I'm sure Hel is intelligent enough to figure out that the god of the goblinoids is involved somehow

I can't speak for what Hel does or does not know. However, I have seen no evidence at all that Durkon ever believed Redcloak was the real threat. The Order has always stressed Xykon being the main baddie, and the invasion force seemed to be under his control. Xykon is neither religious nor goblinoid, so the Dark One's involvement could be downplayed. If Durkon, or anyone else for that matter, put two and two together, they haven't expressed it on-panel. (Hel still might have, of course).


Another interesting question to ask ourselves is, if the gods are aware of the rifts, why don't they send angels or something to protect them? The gods seem fairly unconcerned that someone might use the gates for evil.

There's an old, old theologic debate that this reminds me of...but a tad off-topic.

For the same reason the gods don't personally come to the Prime Plane and smash the temples and cities of their enemies, most likely. In the D&D multiverse, generally speaking, deities act through their mortal mortal worshippers, granting them things like cleric spells, rather than directly step in and take care of matters personally. It could be like a Geneva Convention type of thing: if one country starts to, say, conduct war by sending assassins to take out the other country's civilian leaders, use poison gas, or set children on fire, what do you think the other country will do to retaliate? More importantly, how might the other five or six nearby countries react when they catch this behavior? How about their trade partners? Would their allies really back them up, if it means condoning that behavior? You'd have to be REALLY sure you'd win to engage in that kind of behavior.

Even if they wanted to, how would it unfold? Not even good deities necessarily cooperate. The evil ones sure don't. Can you imagine the mass mayhem of nine different alignment types of outsiders, probably themselves each broken into different factions, showed up at the gates and said "no, MY lord is the one who gets to control the gate"? There would almost certainly be massive outbreaks of supernatural violence, and some sore loser would almost certainly destroy the gate out of petty revenge when they were going to fail.

Or...it could be something else entirely. Fear? Maybe the deities don't want to be anywhere near the damn things, and there's risk of the Snarl's attacks somehow tracing their way back to them. Stealth? An army of angels guarding a patch of otherwise unremarkable forest could draw unwanted attention. Or, my favorite, drama. The deities don't protect the gates, because if they did, the heroes would have nothing to do.

On topic:

Hel is, very likely, interested in the gates. She very likely has the same reasons as everyone else to not want the world, and all its inhabitants, unmade. Or, if I'm wrong, then she's interested in the gates to destroy the last one and blow up the world. Besides, controlling the last gate might give her the same leverage over Thor (something she clearly wants) that Redcloak's been going after this entire time.

Note that "interest" does not necessarily lead to "action". I'm interested in the declining BitCoin issue, because I want to see how that experiment ends. But I'm not buying any.

[Finagle]

You know, I'm really starting to wonder why there isn't some kind of all-out war between the gods happening now. I mean, Hel is the second god that we've seen taking an active interest in the Gates and sending out a High Priest to do something with them. Counting the IFCC, we've now got three divine/extraplanar factions involved in this thing.

It's funny - this is exactly the sort of thing that Gary Gygax did in his campaigns all the time.

[rbetieh]

Perhaps the Fiends work for Hel?

They are working on bringing down the Gods of good.
They tend to have a player on every team, and don't have one on the Order yet.
They have very limited use of V....Durkon would be a good choice then...

[Greatmoustache]

i dunno, hel kinda seems like a crazy person to me. like set the world blasting mega nuke to blow in 10 seconds and spend those 10 seconds laughing like a maniac (that she really is) kinda crazy.

come to think of it, she is a death god. maybe she sees getting snarled (unmade) as a form of death, fit for gods. and she secretly longs for it. and wants it for all his brethern.

sure she only mentions "bringing thor to his knees" but maybe she will just toy with him for a while, then, you know, boom goes the snarl.

not that i think this is the case, or this is a theory or something, but for some reason i like this idea.

[Gift Jeraff]

I was under the impression that Thor ends up rescuing most of the souls that would go to Hel thanks to all the "grey areas," so whatever souls she would otherwise claim are an acceptable sacrifice to whatever benefit she might get from unmaking the Prime Material Plane.

[LordRahl6]

i dunno, hel kinda seems like a crazy person to me. like set the world blasting mega nuke to blow in 10 seconds and spend those 10 seconds laughing like a maniac (that she really is) kinda crazy.

come to think of it, she is a death god. maybe she sees getting snarled (unmade) as a form of death, fit for gods. and she secretly longs for it. and wants it for all his brethern.

sure she only mentions "bringing thor to his knees" but maybe she will just toy with him for a while, then, you know, boom goes the snarl.

not that i think this is the case, or this is a theory or something, but for some reason i like this idea.

There is some logical consistency to your arguments for Hel's action and statements. However this being said from the one scene we have had of her, Hel doesn't appear to be maniacal about it. Instead she seems to be going about her plans methodical just like Redcloak. (Not to say Hel is the Dark One:smallbiggrin:)

[orrion]

Perhaps the Fiends work for Hel?

They are working on bringing down the Gods of good.
They tend to have a player on every team, and don't have one on the Order yet.
They have very limited use of V....Durkon would be a good choice then...

No, the IFCC said they represent all 3 orientations of Evil fiends - Chaotic, Neutral, and Lawful.

There's nothing that says Hel is involved with fiends at all, or that she holds any sway over all 3 orientations. In fact if Hel DID hold sway over that, and over fiends, there wouldn't be a need for the IFCC at all.

[Dovetail]

When Hel spoke to not-Durkon, she stated that she wanted him to "bring this world to ruin, and drive that buffoon Thor to his knees in the process."
A change as great as making Thor bow before Hel and bringing the world to ruin? Sounds like it could only be brought about by something as powerful as the Snarl, or something powerful enough to control the Snarl.
And not-Durkon definitely knows about the Snarl, because he's ransacked Durkon's memories.

I don't really see how any plan involving Hel, not-Durkon, and the Snarl could succeed, though.
Maybe the plan is for not-Durkon to accompany the rest of the oots to Kraagor's Gate and then betray them while they're there? I can't really see him fighting off Roy, Vaarsuvius, Elan, and Haley at the same time. And if he tried to control the Snarl so that Hel could use it to blackmail Thor into bowing down to her, Xykon and Redcloak would probably kill him.

Maybe the plan was simply Hel being aware of Durkon's prophecy and letting him destroy the dwarven homelands and nothing beyond that?

I am seriously overanalyzing this.

[davidbofinger]

If Durkula has all of Durkon's memories, it seems to me like he should know about the Gates

"He struggles within me, but he cannot resist providing me with his memories when I call upon them." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html) So I'd say he doesn't have all of Durkon's memories, just those he puts the effort into demanding. Probably his first priorities have been to know enough not to give himself away, and intelligence about the dwarven lands. He may not have got around yet to asking much about the gates, or Xykon - especially since he's expecting to get off the bus in the dwarven lands before they even get to Kraagor's Gate. Though I admit you'd think, "We're going to Kraagor's Gate? Where's that? And why?" would be one question he'd ask.

[rbetieh]

No, the IFCC said they represent all 3 orientations of Evil fiends - Chaotic, Neutral, and Lawful.

There's nothing that says Hel is involved with fiends at all, or that she holds any sway over all 3 orientations. In fact if Hel DID hold sway over that, and over fiends, there wouldn't be a need for the IFCC at all.

The Fiends work for "The Guys Downstairs"....those could be even more fiends or gods.... and since Hel takes all alignments....

[ti'esar]

I can't find the quote right now, but IIRC the Giant has implied that at least part of the reason why the gods don't take a more direct role in defending the Gates is related to the things we don't know about the rifts and Snarl.

For the same reason, I think it's too early to predict whether Hel's plan relates to the rifts (although I think it is definitely implied), since we don't know what she knows about them.

[JessmanCA]

Maybe the fiends' ultimate goal is to use the snarl as leverage. If they gain control over it somehow, they can get promoted to god status by threatening to unleash it... Can gods grant god status to others?

[snowblizz]

Maybe the fiends' ultimate goal is to use the snarl as leverage. If they gain control over it somehow, they can get promoted to god status by threatening to unleash it... Can gods grant god status to others?

I got the vibes from the IFCC that you are in the business of overthrowing all the gods, good and evil.
Particularly when it is "technically true" that they are in the business of toppling the good gods.
The Snarl would definitely be useful there. Although I'm unsure about the feasibility of using the Snarl this way though. The gods managed to hide form it for centuries.

[MagicalMeat]

While it's certainly possible that Hel is interested in the Gates, I personally feel that having a villain that is unconnected to the Gates makes more sense. So far, all the even numbered books (eg the ones not about a battle for a gate), have been about villains with no interest in the gate. Unless this book is about the Battle for Kraagor's Gate, which would mostly likely mean the last book is about something other than the Gates, I really don't see the new villain trying to take over the Gate. (Sorry about that run-on :smallwink:)

Considering that Hel just received a very, very strong new minion, there's a million different evil plans she can now enact. A plan involving the final Gate is just one of many.