Point-buying PF characters

[Feralventas]

It seems to be pretty common knowledge that 3.x, 3.5 and PF are all woefully unbalanced as far as the system goes. I have the beginnings of an idea on a way to use the mechanics in a familiar fashion, but altering it from a class-based system to something more akin to a point-buy system for the character as a whole, rather than just for ability scores.

Point buy ability scores as usual,

Then rather than getting class features, grant every character two feats per level. Base attack and Saves fall away in favor of things like Weapon Focus and Iron Will stacking. BAB pre-requisites fall away in favor of needing to build up the required feats (Improved Bull Rush needing Power Attack and so on).

Iterative attack feat could only be taken if you have 8 combat oriented feats.

Certain class features become feats; Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, Divine Grace and so on. Sneak Attack can only be taken once per level, same for Eldritch Blast. Invocations could be taken as a feat, but likewise only once per level.

Spells would need to be handled differently. I'd think the Spellcasting feat could only be taken once per two levels, granting access to one spell level each time. It would grant one spell known each time it's taken, but the only spells per day granted would be those from ability scores. One could take the expanded arcana feat to add more known once per two levels.

Armor proficiency are already feats, so that's no major issue.

I'm not sure if I should use the Open Minded feat (Gain 5 skill points) or the Skill Focus feats for the skill system (+3 when taken, can be taken again for +3 each time.)


I'd appreciate any feedback or elaborations you can think of; the idea is still nascent and undeveloped, and I'd like to see what can be made of it.

[holywhippet]

You'd have to overhaul the monsters in that case. If there is no BAB progression you'd have trouble hitting the high AC monsters even if you keep stacking weapon focus. Then there are monsters with attacks that call for a saving throw. Your players would have to spend most of those feats just trying to get a decent saving throw.

Classes like the monk would be in even more trouble as their good saving throw progression is about their only saving grace.

My preferred idea for balance is to require all PCs to be a gestalt of say a tier 1 and a tier 4/5 class. That way all characters are more balanced compared to each other. As the DM you just need to adjust the challenges they face accordingly.

[Baroncognito]

So, I want to make a fighter.

I'll make a human.

first level: 1 feat from human, and three first level feats. I lose the fighter's bonus feat.

I can take martial weapon proficiency (great sword), weapon focus (great sword), great fortitude, and Light Armour Proficiency.

This isn't looking great for my fighter. I don't have medium or heavy armours, I can't use shields, and I'm only proficient in one weapon. Also, I didn't manage to get any skill points.

If your idea of balancing is "let's create people who get mercilessly slaughtered by all the NPCs" then sure, this is perfectly balanced. No one has a chance.

[Slipperychicken]

I'd appreciate any feedback or elaborations you can think of; the idea is still nascent and undeveloped, and I'd like to see what can be made of it.

You could try to make numerical feats give scaling benefits, like Power Attack and Skill Focus do. Things like "+2 to a saving throw, plus an additional 1 per four levels the character possesses", "This character gains his BAB (minimum 2) as a dodge bonus to armor class. This bonus doesn't stack with armor bonuses", or "Choose a school of magic. This character adds 1/4 his caster level, minimum 2, to those spells' save DCs". Weapon Focus might just give +1 to hit per four levels, and Weapon Specialization +2 to damage every four levels.

It also might help to make feats give actual abilities. Like a saving throw feat might give you a 1/day reroll on saves of that type at 15th level, or weapon specialization might let you auto-confirm a critical 1/day.

[ShadowsGrnEyes]

this feels less like a modification and more like a whole new game.

that said, i see the benefit of creating a whole new system like this. . .what your describing would be a much lower powered system i think. nd would require a complete overhaul. . . using 3.5 as parts.

Look at the way the Midnight system incorporates spell casting it might be what your looking for.

i wouldnt toss BAB and saves though. . . instead try using a base that people can modify. i fighter can spend feats in increasing BAB. . . while a wizard would spend more feats on magic, but someone could also mishmash and go bard or magus style too. . .

[Spore]

You really should let the classes stay the same because that's what people know and like.

My main idea would be to keep everything the same and assign point values to certain classes that are deducted from your (increased) stat pool. (That's btw blatantly stolen from the Dark Eye). This way you may play a hugely MAD class with superior stats or a good SAD class with one good stat and several poor ones to provide SOME area to attack them.

Example: You get 30 points to build a Wizard or Monk. A Wizard costs 15 points (due to practice a Wizard doesn't get enough exercise) while a Mok costs 5.

Basically the monk gets to play a 25-pointbuy character, example stats:
Str 16 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 15 Cha 8

while the Wizard plays a 15 pointbuy character who has weaknesses but is ultimatively still more powerful, still, the gap closes a bit further.
Str 10 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 16 Wis 10 Cha 8

The trick is to find balanced values for each class. If you then either ban stat enhancing items or buff MAD items to put more emphasis on a good starting stat then you avoid the giant gap between heroes with rising levels.

[Drachasor]

So I could go:

Wizard Spells 1, More Spells Known (Wizard)
Cleric Spells 1, More Spells Known (Cleric)
Wizard Spells 2, More Spells Known (Wizard)
...

Like that?
I probably wouldn't need all of those spells, so I'd up some saves, I guess.

[grarrrg]

So I could go:

Wizard Spells 1, More Spells Known (Wizard)
Cleric Spells 1, More Spells Known (Cleric)
Wizard Spells 2, More Spells Known (Wizard)
...

Like that?
I probably wouldn't need all of those spells, so I'd up some saves, I guess.

I think he was thinking more along the lines of:
"Wizard" and "Cleric" cease to exist.
And the "Spellcasting" feat could only be taken once every other level, regardless of type.

So it would look more like:
Level 1: Spells (Arcane)
Level 2: 'meh' (cannot take Spells, as took it last level)
Level 3: Spells (Arcane _or_ Divine)


Basically, he's piecemealing _every_ feature of _every_ class, and turning it all into feats that would do basically the same thing.
This would require a _LOT_ of balance-testing, and probably isn't really worth it.

[Drachasor]

I think he was thinking more along the lines of:
"Wizard" and "Cleric" cease to exist.
And the "Spellcasting" feat could only be taken once every other level, regardless of type.

Theurges not existing seems lame to me.

Though, I think it would probably be better overall to have some baseline progression as ShadowsGrnEyes and build off that. Honestly, I don't think spending more stuff for BAB and saves is generally good. That's incidental non-fun stuff that everyone should get. You should really only be spending resources on stuff that alters how you play more significantly.

If I were going to work with D&D as a model, I'd be more tempted to look at Tier 3 classes and alter that to provide multiple mechanics with different themes.

[grarrrg]

Theurges not existing seems lame to me.

Theurges could exist, the would just fall behind (like always).
Hypothetical wording:
"Spellcasting Feat:
Increase your Max Spell Level by 1, this applies to your choice of Arcane Spells, or Divine spells.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times, it stacks with itself. You may only take this feat once every 2 levels."
Throw in something about choosing Prepared/Spontaneous and you're pretty much good to go.

Level 1: Arcane 1, Divine 0
Level 3: Arcane 1, Divine 1
Level 5: Arcane 2, Divine 1
etc...
Which would work pretty much the same as just alternating Wizard/Cleric levels.

There could also be things like "prestige" feats. The Mystic Theurge version would advance both Arcane and Divine, but have a pre-req of Arcane 2 and Divine 2, or something.

Still, more trouble than it's worth overall.