Sunburst: Damage/Blindness 10ft or 80ft?

[Croftlave]

I have a debate going with one of my players regarding Sunburst.

My reading: The description seems to be talking about two different stages of the spell. The first phase is summoning a globe of highly localized sunlight that does 6d6 damage and blindness in a 10ft radius. Then the globe explodes in a burst of sunlight out 80ft that harms creatures affected by sunlight and dispels any darkness spell up to level 9. I also want to point out that the short descriptions in all of the spell lists all say blindness and 6d6 damage in a 10ft radius.

His reading: Since it doesn't say on the Sunburst description the 10ft thing, I should ignore what it says on the other pages because "They are notoriously bad", and the globe thing doesn't mean anything. I am just reading way into it. It obviously blinds and causes damage to everything in the area of the burst.

[Phelix-Mu]

The full spell descriptions trump the short bits on the spell tables.

The full description never mentions anything about a 10' sphere. It's instantaneous, which doesn't really support your idea about having two stages. It bursts instantly into the full 80' radius.

It's a high-level spell. Huge AoE blindness sounds really strong, but it's more just par for an 8th level spell.

[Grod_The_Giant]

You're reading the short blurb. He's reading the actual rules for how the spell works.

[Croftlave]

Thank you for the responses, but I am not sure I made it clear enough.

First, I am reading both the short blurbs and the full description.

Second, I will admit to being new to 3.5. I spent most of my RPG time as a Keeper for Call of Cthulhu; though I played AD&D in High School. I'll also admit that I find a lot of the mechanics of 3.5 to be weird and counterintuitive and some days can't believe I got myself into DMing this system.

From the full description (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Sunburst)

"Sunburst causes a globe of searing radiance to explode silently from a point you select."

It causes a globe, which explodes. That is what I meant by two phases. The part that is instantaneous is the duration, not how long it takes to cast. So, you would be casting for a standard action, during which a highly concentrated globe of sunlight would form. You finish casting and the globe bursts sunlight out 80'. If the globe isn't smaller than 80' how/where exactly is it exploding?

"All creatures in the globe are blinded and take 6d6 points of damage."

So, you have a globe of searing radiance that causes blindness and 6d6 damage.

"An undead creature caught within the globe takes 1d6 points of damage per caster level (maximum 25d6), or half damage if a Reflex save is successful."

Talking about the globe, and then it appears to me to be talking about the burst as a separate thing:

"In addition, the burst results in the destruction of any undead creature specifically harmed by bright light if it fails its save."

The short blurbs are:
Sun Domain: Blinds all within 10 ft., deals 6d6 damage
8th Level Druid: Blinds all within 10 ft., deals 6d6 damage
8th Level Sorceror/Wizard Spells, Evoc: Blinds all within 10 ft., deals 6d6 damage

As far as the blindness being OP or whatever, I don't really care. I just know that it looks like they did a bad job of the writing when turning Sunray (2e Priest level 7) into a vampire bomb.

And, if I completely ignored the short blurbs and the precursor spell I understand where he is coming from. I just didn't read it that way. I'll probably just give it to him, I just wanted to see if anyone else was reading it the same way.

For fun, let's look at comparing the max numbers of Sunbeam (Druid 7) and Sunburst (Druid 8) His and Mine:

Sunbeam: One beam per round 4d6(24[48 to light sensitives]) to living and 20d6(120) to undead, plus blindness. The line is 60' so you can line up 12 medium targets, which gives us a maximum per round damage of 288 [576 to light-sensitives] to living or 720 to undead.

Sunburst my version: per round 6d6(36[72 to light-sensitives]) to living and 25d6 (150) to undead plus blindness. The globe is 10 feet so 4 medium targets, which gives us a 144 [288 to light sensitives] to living or 600 to undead; while also canceling all up-to-9th level darkness spells and possibly destroying 680 light sensitive undead.

Sunburst his version: per round 6d6 (36 [72 to light sensitives]) to living and 25d6 (150) to undead plus blindness. The burst is 80 feet in radius so that is 684 medium targets, which gives us a 24,624 [49,248 to light sensitives] damage to living or 102,600 damage to undead; while also canceling all up-to-9th level darkness spells.

Is it normal for the next higher level of a spell to do 85.5 times more damage to living creatures and 142.5 times more damage to the undead and also cancel magical effects in the area? Even if you use maximum damage instead of damage per round it's 1,728 [3,456] to living and 4,320 to undead for an increase of 14.25 time more for living or 23.75 times more for undead. I mean I know that D&D characters aren't the squishing slowing-going-insane characters I am used to in CoC, but that seems like a lot. Am I just having culture shock?

[TuggyNE]

Talking about the globe, and then it appears to me to be talking about the burst as a separate thing:

"In addition, the burst results in the destruction of any undead creature specifically harmed by bright light if it fails its save."

Burst is the term of art for a particular type of spell area, which sunburst is. The globe, then, is in the form of a burst as opposed to an emanation or spread or cone. They are not separate entities.


For fun, let's look at comparing the max numbers of Sunbeam (Druid 7) and Sunburst (Druid 8) His and Mine:

Sunbeam: One beam per round 4d6(24[48 to light sensitives]) to living and 20d6(120) to undead, plus blindness. The line is 60' so you can line up 12 medium targets, which gives us a maximum per round damage of 288 [576 to light-sensitives] to living or 720 to undead.

Sunburst my version: per round 6d6(36[72 to light-sensitives]) to living and 25d6 (150) to undead plus blindness. The globe is 10 feet so 4 medium targets, which gives us a 144 [288 to light sensitives] to living or 600 to undead; while also canceling all up-to-9th level darkness spells and possibly destroying 680 light sensitive undead.

Sunburst his version: per round 6d6 (36 [72 to light sensitives]) to living and 25d6 (150) to undead plus blindness. The burst is 80 feet in radius so that is 684 medium targets, which gives us a 24,624 [49,248 to light sensitives] damage to living or 102,600 damage to undead; while also canceling all up-to-9th level darkness spells.

Is it normal for the next higher level of a spell to do 85.5 times more damage to living creatures and 142.5 times more damage to the undead and also cancel magical effects in the area? Even if you use maximum damage instead of damage per round it's 1,728 [3,456] to living and 4,320 to undead for an increase of 14.25 time more for living or 23.75 times more for undead. I mean I know that D&D characters aren't the squishing slowing-going-insane characters I am used to in CoC, but that seems like a lot. Am I just having culture shock?

It's just culture shock. You will never have enough targets to actually even half-fill the area of either spell; if you did, those targets would either be a) so stupidly more powerful than you that defeat would be nigh-inevitable or b) so individually weak you wouldn't care. Against more plausible numbers of targets (1-30, generally more toward the lower end of the scale) the fact that you can hit "all the enemies" is not all that much more relevant than being able to hit "all the enemies by turns".

[Psyren]

Your player is right, it's 80ft. blind. Keep in mind it has a good chance of catching his allies though.

[Invader]

Plus it offers a Reflex save and spell resistance. TBH as an 8th level spell I doubt many people would consider this that powerful of a spell.

[Chronos]

The description of the spell says nothing about 10 feet, and the description is all that matters. The short blurb that you see in spell lists is just there for convenience, and is often wrong and nearly always leaves off important details; if you need to know exactly how a spell works, you must refer to the full description.

[Psyren]

More specifically, the short description can help you understand the spell better, but the full description trumps in case of any conflict because it is the primary source.