Question about Breath Weapons

[FabulousFizban]

I won't go into the details, suffice it to say my party is going to be attacked by a white dragon, potentially underwater.

What happens if a white dragon uses it's breath weapon underwater?

My idea was to have any player who is hit by the breath weapon while underwater frozen in a block of ice, which might be too cruel. Please provide any insight as to what you think the effect should be.

This is for pathfinder btw

[Darkweave31]

I seem to recall breath weapons can't be used underwater unless otherwise stated...

[Drachasor]

Freezing water is a lot of work. I wouldn't say it would freeze the water.

Hmm, you could have it count as an hour exposure to cold temperatures:


An unprotected character in cold weather (below 40° F) must make a Fortitude save each hour (DC 15, + 1 per previous check) or take 1d6 points of nonlethal damage. A character who has the Survival skill may receive a bonus on this saving throw and may be able to apply this bonus to other characters as well.

In conditions of severe cold or exposure (below 0° F), an unprotected character must make a Fortitude save once every 10 minutes (DC 15, +1 per previous check), taking 1d6 points of nonlethal damage on each failed save. A character who has the Survival skill may receive a bonus on this saving throw and may be able to apply this bonus to other characters as well. Characters wearing winter clothing only need check once per hour for cold and exposure damage.

A character who takes any nonlethal damage from cold or exposure is beset by frostbite or hypothermia (treat her as fatigued). These penalties end when the character recovers the nonlethal damage she took from the cold and exposure.

Extreme cold (below -20° F) deals 1d6 points of lethal damage per minute (no save). In addition, a character must make a Fortitude save (DC 15, +1 per previous check) or take 1d4 points of nonlethal damage. Those wearing metal armor or coming into contact with very cold metal are affected as if by a chill metal spell.

Alternatively, you could have the water get a little frozen and treat anyone that fails a save as Entangled.

Either one of these is going to make the dragon potentially far more dangerous though.

[Yogibear41]

Pretty sure breath weapons cannot be used underwater, and freezing water instantaneously would require some pretty wicked low temperatures. What age category is the dragon?

[FabulousFizban]

The water is already at freezing as well. It is a frozen pool. The dragon breaks up the ice on top. The players run the risk of falling in. So the water is already at 32 degrees and borderline ice. I don't know if that changes anything.

[FabulousFizban]

I like the entangled idea.

[Drachasor]

Pretty sure breath weapons cannot be used underwater, and freezing water instantaneously would require some pretty wicked low temperatures. What age category is the dragon?

Pretty sure the only breath weapons that don't work underwater are fire effects.
Unless something outside the SRD changes that.

[Yogibear41]

Technically if the water isn't frozen it isn't 32 degress (the water underneath the frozen top is actually slightly warmer) unless of course it is 32 degrees and the water is diluted enough with other things to affect its freezing point, but lets not open that can of worms.

But I understand your point :smallsmile:

[Yogibear41]

Pretty sure the only breath weapons that don't work underwater are fire effects.
Unless something outside the SRD changes that.

You are right, well sort of, either way I was wrong page 20 Draconomicon:

"A dragon holding its breath can use its
breath weapon underwater. If the breath weapon uses fire, the
dragon must succeed on a DC 20 Spellcraft check to make it function
properly. If the check fails, the fiery breath merely creates a
few harmless bubbles of steam. No matter what kind of breath
the dragon used, it stops holding its breath when it uses its
breath weapon and begins to drown."

[Drachasor]

You are right, well sort of, either way I was wrong page 20 Draconomicon:

"A dragon holding its breath can use its
breath weapon underwater. If the breath weapon uses fire, the
dragon must succeed on a DC 20 Spellcraft check to make it function
properly. If the check fails, the fiery breath merely creates a
few harmless bubbles of steam. No matter what kind of breath
the dragon used, it stops holding its breath when it uses its
breath weapon and begins to drown."

Make sense. It'll need a Waterbreathing spell or magical item.

[Another_Poet]

Freezing water is a lot of work. I wouldn't say it would freeze the water.

Seconded.

You're talking a stream on energy that lasts maybe 1-3 seconds, and is painfully/traumatically cold but a human being can survive contact with it. Meanwhile, it's agitating the (presumably already moving) water. I'm no Randall Munroe, but that water does not become ice, even if it's already just above freezing.

Just call for a Fort save vs. Stunning for anyone hit by it while immersed (in addition to the damage).

[Yogibear41]

I'm sure someone could put some math to it if they really wanted to, I know the older a white dragon gets the colder its breath weapon becomes so that is why I asked the age.

But I tend to agree with the its probably not going to work camp. How many ice cubes would it take to instantaneously reduce a pond of water by 1 degree?

[tyckspoon]

What happens if a white dragon uses it's breath weapon underwater?


RAW, the characters within the area of effect of the weapon take Xd6 cold damage, where X is determined by checking the chart for the appropriate dragon and finding the listing for the correct age category. If the characters succeed at a Reflex save with a DC found on the same chart, they will take half damage. That's it.

Yeah, that's the same thing that happens if the dragon breathes in open air. Most effects work the same way underwater as they do out of water for the sake of simplicity, and D&D/Pathfinder's rules are usually at best silent on the issue of possible environmental interactions or sometimes go out of their way to say they don't happen (as with the rule that fire spells don't set things on fire, despite being capable of burning living creatures to death, because the heat 'comes and goes too quickly.)

That said.. I'd use this as a chance to apply the existing exposure rules. If they fall in and get breathed on, nothing extra happens *right then*. But if they don't think to dry off and get changed into new clothes immediately after the fight.. well, I assume they're already in freezing or near-freezing conditions. And now they're wearing freezing or near-freezing water. That ruins the protection of whatever clothes they're wearing and I'd call it an exacerbating condition even beyond that, so now they're effectively in sub-zero temps. Make them get out those Fort checks and Survival skills.

Or they're all using Endure Elements as their 'cold weather gear' anyway and it's irrelevant. Drag out the swimming and drowning rules and that should provide enough complication to the fight without worrying about special interactions with the breath weapon.

[FabulousFizban]

this is all great advice, thank you guys

As for making the encounter far more dangerous, that is my goal actually. I want to terrorize them, break them, if they walk away at all. This is to be their tomb of horrors, a wake up call that the game isn't all unicorns and magical loot.

[BrokenChord]

Seconded.

You're talking a stream on energy that lasts maybe 1-3 seconds, and is painfully/traumatically cold but a human being can survive contact with it. Meanwhile, it's agitating the (presumably already moving) water. I'm no Randall Munroe, but that water does not become ice, even if it's already just above freezing.

Just call for a Fort save vs. Stunning for anyone hit by it while immersed (in addition to the damage).

Humans can't really survive contact with it, at least not the way I imagine you're comparing it. What a high-level adventurer can take is way different from what a normal person could even pretend to try to survive. Once a reasonably high age category is reached, a human Commoner/Expert 1 (that's what 95%ish of people are) can't survive with a Natural 20 for free Reflex save and minimum damage. That's basically like getting glanced on the arm with it, and it just instantly freezes your blood/puts you into shock/whatever.

Comparatively, barbarians at the level where this breath weapon might be used who have decent Con can probably survive falling from the moon. So surviving that breath is within the realm of possibility even if it would kill a regular human 100 times out of 100.

I think water freezing isn't *too* unrealistic. Not like the water gets an option to Reflex save or try to take anything less than all that cold damage.

[rmnimoc]

Well personally I'd suggest using the same rules as freezing sphere for the breath attack.


If the freezing sphere strikes a body of water or a liquid that is principally water (not including water-based creatures), it freezes the liquid to a depth of 6 inches in a 40-foot radius. This ice lasts for 1 round per caster level. Creatures that were swimming on the surface of a targeted body of water become trapped in the ice. Attempting to break free is a full-round action. A trapped creature must make a DC 25 Strength check or a DC 25 Escape Artist check to do so.


I'd also suggest checking out this thread http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=164445.