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View Full Version : A Bad DM Needs to be Crushed



Ping_T._Squirrel
2007-01-31, 02:13 AM
My friend in a different campain has an issue that is being thrust on them by what seems to be a particularly untalented DM.

It would seem that they are being harassed by a Red Dragon that has, to quote, "A billion AC and a billion SR." What is annoying about this is it is a bunch of misses back and forth then they have to run because the dragon will hit before they do. So what they need is a solution that neutralizes the dragon without using anything that AC or SR can outright thwart.

They are:
-petal 6 scout/8 exemplar/1 ninja
-Cleric Level 17 apparently that is (all domains) whatever that means
-Gnome Sorcercer level 17
-Dwarven Fighter/Dwarven Defender Total level 17
-Human Monk Level 17

Items they have to work with:
-A ring of greater invisiblity
-Monks belt
-Gold Dragon Orb
-2.5 million gp approxiately

They are thinking a "Trap the Soul" plan where their gem looks like the gold dragon orb but something more surefire would be appreciated.

JaronK
2007-01-31, 02:21 AM
First, is that normal AC? Because dragons usually have insanely good AC, but craptastic touch AC... in fact, the more powerful they get, the easier it is to hit their touch AC. Thus, you can use touch attacks to kill him.

I don't know what's up with that cleric. All domains?

Anyway, another option is more entertaining. If the sorcerer took Explosive Runes, he can spend all his spell slots for a few days writing them on a bunch of sheets of paper. Put the papers in a box or otherwise bind them up. Throw the papers into range of the dragon (they just need to be within 10', though a direct hit is better) and cast Dispel Magic on the whole box, intentionally failing your dispel check. All the runes explode, and each rune does 6d6 force damage, reflex save for half, no SR. You should be able to have at least 100 runes in your little nuclear bundle, so even if the dragon also has a billion on his reflex saves and makes them all (no 1's for the DM's pet!) he'll still take 300d6 damage.

Of course, if he's got evasion, that won't work as well, and he'll only take 15d6 damage with his bajillion reflex save. You might need a few more runes in that case.

JaronK

Just Alex
2007-01-31, 02:25 AM
Kill the Githyanki Lich Queen. Take her scepter. Win.

Fizban
2007-01-31, 02:27 AM
I'm just gonna say: If the dragon literally has a AC 1,000,000,000 and SR 1,000,000,000, the DM is full of it.

PhoeKun
2007-01-31, 02:30 AM
Honestly, I would say the solution here is to get a new DM. No matter what the party does that could conceivably kill this dragon, nothing will actually work.

A DM immature enough to throw something with "a billion AC and a billion SR" at his players is most assuredly too immature to actually let his pet come to harm. He may be poorly designed even with the obvious disregarding of the rules, but I assure you that dragon exists solely to kill the PCs. Some patently stupid deus ex machina will save it from any sort of death the PCs can deal it.

JadedDM
2007-01-31, 02:30 AM
How is this dragon harassing them? Is it trying to outright kill them? (It sounds like it would have succeeded by now, if that was the case). Why do the players need to kill the dragon? Just to spite the DM?

It's important to remember that D&D is not "us vs. them." If the DM doesn't want this dragon to be killed (whether his reasons or good or not), attempting to 'trick' him is not going to accomplish anything. It sounds like the group just needs to sit down and talk about whatever is going on here.

Dairun Cates
2007-01-31, 02:33 AM
Honestly, it sounds like something the GM doesn't want to happen, and he's trying to tell the players that and they're not getting the INCREDIBLY obvious hint. It happens occassionally and while I'm not supporting railroading, sometimes it's necessary for keeping the campaign sane. However, if it's attacking them and it's clear they're supposed to defeat it, and it's not just a case GM's telling players NOT to kill every NPC they meet, there's a few options.

It's been a while since I played D&D (blasphemy, I know. I've been doing other systems), but I'm sure one of the spell schools (abjuration?) ignores Spell Resistance. You could also try relying on a spread out long distance attack to avoid getting everyone in his dragon breath and his melee attacks.

Honestly, they should have SOMETHING to deal with SR and high AC by level 17 by now, and if they don't, I'm surprised they didn't get moped out earlier.

Edit: and Phoekun, a billion AC and SR is a nicer hint than a blue bolt.

oriong
2007-01-31, 02:34 AM
They're a 17th level party with 3 magic items to their name and 2.5 million gold pieces? Could the problem be that none of these characters are actually holding a magic weapon? Well, the monk is obviously, but he's also behind on the BAB.

I guess it comes down to how much your friends actually know what they're talking about. The dragon might not have unbeatable SR/AC, just high ones (which isn't unlikely).

The best bet to ignore AC is touch attacks, dealing with SR is a bit more difficult especially with a sorcerer your primary caster. Combat wise the best way to take him out would be to uber buff the dwarf and hope the rest of the party have some way to keep the dragon relatively immobile.

AmoDman
2007-01-31, 02:48 AM
I think it's time to whip out my favorite solution of all time.

Magic Missiles. Lots and lots of Magic Missiles.

oriong
2007-01-31, 03:05 AM
Spamming Acid wands at him might be a viable solution: touch attacks that don't allow SR. Even with the sorcerer and cleric both spamming with high level wands of acid arrow won't be much, 8d4-12d4 a round at the very most. That would be 20-30 damage a round at most. Going to take a long time to clean out a powerful Red.

A better option would be wands of Orb of Cold. They're touch attacks and don't allow SR, and if the dragon ever rolls a 1 it might blind him for a round. a 15th level wand of Orb of Cold is a mere 45,000 gp. With the cleric and the sorcerer both using one on the dragon each round he'll be hit with the equivalent of 45d6 damage a round. That's 157.5 average damage a round. It'll clear out a great wyrm in a bit over 4 rounds.

Of course, the moment he gets hit with the first orbs he will be on you like a ton of adamantine blocks. So, be sure to be uber buffed, and maybe even lock yourselves in a barred forcecage (with something to help against his breath weapon too)

If the dwarf can get his primary weapon in the Brilliant Energy version then he should have no problem hitting with every single attack, give it the Frost enhancement too.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-31, 03:09 AM
Shivering Touch. Dex damage, no save. Bye-bye, dragon.

oriong
2007-01-31, 03:10 AM
But it does allow SR, which is what this dragon supposedly has massive amounts of. And as a touch spell if you fail the SR roll you've got a rather nasty thing still to deal with.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-31, 03:14 AM
Assay Spell Resistance should help with the SR, unless it's got some arbitrary high number, but point.

Candle of Invocation. Gate in a Titan, who will gate in another Titan, et cetera until you're satisfied.
It costs around 9000 gp. Easily affordable.

Zeb The Troll
2007-01-31, 04:13 AM
First, is that normal AC? Because dragons usually have insanely good AC, but craptastic touch AC... in fact, the more powerful they get, the easier it is to hit their touch AC. Thus, you can use touch attacks to kill him.Good point. A great wyrm red has a touch AC of 2. Yep, 2. Your sorceror should be able to hit that using a mirror and firing between his legs. It's SR is only 32 also. Combined with Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration, your sorc should have about a 50/50 shot of getting through it.

Of course, at CR 26, your 17th level party is supposed to have trouble dealing with it.

serow
2007-01-31, 04:46 AM
Isn't that called a plot device?
Wouldn't it be nicer to just roll with it and see what the DM wants to present?

Otherwise the OP's friend could just take over as DM? I'm sure the current DM would love the chance to be a player instead.

Sampi
2007-01-31, 04:50 AM
I think it's time to whip out my favorite solution of all time.

Magic Missiles. Lots and lots of Magic Missiles.

Shield.

However, try Enervations. No SR, no save. Just negative levels. By touch attack, ranged.

Vik
2007-01-31, 05:01 AM
Both Magic Missile and Enervation will allow SR.

The Gate "combo" won't work either :
When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire. A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have, and it refuses to cast any spells that would cost it XP, or to use any spell-like abilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities) that would cost XP if they were spells. And Gate has an XP cost if you want to summon a creature.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-31, 05:05 AM
Both Magic Missile and Enervation will allow SR.

The Gate "combo" won't work either : And Gate has an XP cost if you want to summon a creature.

Both of those things are untrue.

Your quote refers to SUMMONED creatures. Gate is a Conjuration(Calling) spell, not a Conjuration(Summoning) spell--there is a big difference! Called creatures are not subject to the limitations of Summoned creatures. Effectively, Gate just provides a transportation-and-magical-compulsion combo.

There is also NO XP cost for Gate if you are using it for the "immediate service" version of the calling function.

Finally, Candle of Invocation is an item. You don't lose XP when using it. Titans have gate as an SLA. SLAs have no XP cost. Even if it did have an XP cost, that wouldn't be relevant here.

Vik
2007-01-31, 05:27 AM
Both of those things are untrue.

Your quote refers to SUMMONED creatures. Gate is a Conjuration(Calling) spell, not a Conjuration(Summoning) spell--there is a big difference! Called creatures are not subject to the limitations of Summoned creatures. Indeed, I missed it. Even if I think it needs to be fixed.


There is also NO XP cost for Gate if you are using it for the "immediate service" version of the calling function.That's untrue. What you don't need for the immediate service is to make an agreement and a payment to the creature. The spell hax an XP cost for any calling effect. By the way, that means that with your combo all you will do will be to ask Titans to get other Titans - an immediate service. If you ask him to fight, he'll much likely won't Gate another Titan's as he'll be in debt for doing so.


Finally, Candle of Invocation is an item. You don't lose XP when using it. Titans have gate as an SLA. SLAs have no XP cost. Even if it did have an XP cost, that wouldn't be relevant here. The part of the SRD I quoted says that you can't ask him to use a SLA that would cost XP as a spell.

The only point that stands is the Called one, which seems like a hole in the rules.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-31, 05:41 AM
Oh, hunh. So it does. Funny, I could've sworn the immediate service thing had no XP cost.

Well, the Candle of Invocation costs no XP, and neither do Spell-Like Abilities. Your quoted restriction applies to Summoned, not Called, creatures.

The Titan who is Called by the candle has to perform an immediate service for you. All it takes is the proper wording--such as "do what I tell you while this battle lasts", or "aid me by Gating in another Titan, then attacking my enemies, and commanding it to do the same thing I have commanded you to do, unless there are already 1000 Titans present, in which case command it to attack my enemies." The Titan doesn't lose XP using its Gate SLA, and the restriction on using SLAs doesn't apply to it as it does to summoned creatures.


Calling is, incidentally, *intentionally* different from summoning. Sure, they didn't foresee the Efreeti Using Its Wish SLA To Make You A Ring Of Infinite Wishes For Free use or the Infinite Titan use, but Calling isn't meant to be subject to the summoning rules (and generally has some bargaining involved).

Charity
2007-01-31, 05:56 AM
Instead of drowning the fella in the limitless supply of D&D fondue you could (I know this has already been suggested, but it is the most sensible option I think) talk to him and express your concerns with the objective of reaching a resolution you are all happy with.
Honest human interaction >> Cheese

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-31, 06:02 AM
Charity is, of course, right. When you come down to it, not only can't you beat the DM, because what he says happens unless the players walk away, but trying to beat the DM will not lead to anyone having fun.

Charity
2007-01-31, 06:08 AM
Charity is, of course right.

Can I just keep this bit for later?

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-31, 06:11 AM
No, because there's a missing comma. My typos shall not live on!

Charity
2007-01-31, 06:19 AM
Using that as a basis, means I'm unquotable...

Probably a good thing.

NullAshton
2007-01-31, 07:32 AM
Gem disguised as gold dragon orb won't work, because having one earns the anger of ALL of dragonkind. Not just one kind, all of them.

A large gem with a poem inscribed on it would work, though. Make sure to cast Magic Aura on it beforehand, so it doesn't glow with any magic, since it most likely will look at it with detect magic first.

Jayabalard
2007-01-31, 08:52 AM
How is this dragon harassing them? Is it trying to outright kill them? (It sounds like it would have succeeded by now, if that was the case). Why do the players need to kill the dragon? Just to spite the DM?

It's important to remember that D&D is not "us vs. them." If the DM doesn't want this dragon to be killed (whether his reasons or good or not), attempting to 'trick' him is not going to accomplish anything. It sounds like the group just needs to sit down and talk about whatever is going on here.


Isn't that called a plot device?
Wouldn't it be nicer to just roll with it and see what the DM wants to present? Agreed; if the gm intends it to be unkillable, or only killable under certain circumstance (ie you have to quest the tools of uber dragon stabbing) then that's the way it's going to be.

Zincorium
2007-01-31, 09:18 AM
A few things. First, it's very poor DMing to try and get their attention by presenting your uber cool NPC and plan to only present the plot hook if they bow down to it's obvious majesty. It hasn't worked for me since I was twelve.

Second, if the DM is waiting on you guys to take an obvious (but only to him...) hint and ask what the most likely evil dragon wants, do it, but call him on it. Third, wraith strike and the PA/shock trooper/leap attack combo should grab it's attention while you plan out what to do to put it down.

Dairun Cates
2007-01-31, 11:30 AM
Second, if the DM is waiting on you guys to take an obvious (but only to him...) hint and ask what the most likely evil dragon wants, do it, but call him on it.

The only thing less obvious than an ancient red dragon is the Terrasque, and that's because he's usually sleeping at the time. So, if he's awake, you did something wrong.

I think the point has been clearly made that it might just be best to go ahead with what the GM planned. I know there's always complaints about railroading, but a player that refuses to follow the plot at all or work with the GM and then complains later about nothing to do is far worse in my eyes.

I think we all assume this is an Ancient Red Dragon, because honestly the party should be able to handle anything else. The truth of the matter is, whether real life or fantasy, there are occassionally people more powerful than you that are going to try to force you to do things (referring to the red dragon, not the GM), and you just have to accept that. If you want to kill the Red Dragon THAT much, isn't it easiest to do it behind it's back anyway?

Deus Mortus
2007-01-31, 11:33 AM
Grab a big hammer and smash the DM with it, or just follow what he says and it might turn out all right...

Were-Sandwich
2007-01-31, 11:36 AM
Hmmm. First, use that 2.5 million GP to buy some goddamn magic items!

THen fly (you're 17th level, you can fly) over the dragon, using tekelkinesis to drag really freakin big rocks behind you. Then drop them on the dragon. Probably won't work, but it'll get you killed, so you have an excuse to start a new game with a better DM.

Deepblue706
2007-01-31, 11:46 AM
Has this DM done any crap like this in the past? Sheesh. I throw challenges at my PCs, but never with impossibly high stats. And more times than not, I'll give them a bunch of advantages (like, 5 NPCs and an abandoned fort in case they're fighting a Dragon with significantly higher CR).

It seems obvious to me the DM wants his players to do something "special". Like, inquire with local wise men/whatever about dragons. Then, they might have to go find some crappy artifact that renders it vulnerable and all that nonsense. If it'll won't die, despite what say...the rules tell us...I wouldn't bother trying unless I had absolutely no other choice.

Woot Spitum
2007-01-31, 11:49 AM
Hmm...let's see here, the dragon has a bajillion to both AC and SR, but despite the fact that it's invincible, it hasn't killed anyone in the party yet...I smell a plot hook. Just yesterday I saw a thread about a DM complaining that his group would't take his hints that the direct approach was unfeasable and that they needed to role-play some...

Kaerou
2007-01-31, 11:59 AM
You know, when someone complains about something having 'a bajillion hp' they usually just mean they either
a, had bad rolls
b, had subpar equipment.

Sounds like the latter. Buy yourself some magic weapons, sheesh.

Theres also plenty of cleric spells that increase your chance to hit. Heroism would be useful.

Your sorcerer can buy some scrolls of things like ACID FOG and SOLID FOG. if he doesnt already know those spells. Its a great combo. Throw in a cloudkill and let loose the ice storms.

Falrin
2007-01-31, 01:33 PM
Decide you can't defeat it. Run away. Far Far away.

If you still want to annoy your DM kill / avoid / run away from the first clue he throws you.

Mewtarthio
2007-01-31, 04:12 PM
Why do you have so much liquid cash on you? Liquid cash does nothing. It's no wonder you find it difficult to win with only three magic items on hand. That's like walking into a trigonometry exam without a calculator.

Missing Shoe
2007-01-31, 04:26 PM
I wouldnt bother killing, as some has said, its probably a plot device. Meaning if you can get around its billion AC and SR, it probably has a trillion HP and millions in saves and stats.

Honestly I think this is a poor move on your DM's part. Even plot hooks can die. Thus new plots are born.

Dreads
2007-02-08, 03:35 AM
Maybe its an illusion and the GM is giving the players (heavy handidly) a clue that he wants them to disbelieve or dispel it or something. It might not be real.

James

Zincorium
2007-02-08, 04:59 AM
Maybe its an illusion and the GM is giving the players (heavy handidly) a clue that he wants them to disbelieve or dispel it or something. It might not be real.

James

If nothing else, that's an amusing way to put your PC out of their misery if it turns out to actually be real.

kamoo
2007-02-08, 06:06 AM
Acid Arrow him to death!
will take tons of time, tons of darts, tons of HP, it may eat you, but can be done...

Armads
2007-02-08, 07:03 AM
Step 1. Buy the dwarf something useful with your 2.5 million gold pieces, like a brilliant energy frost axe. Buy the ninja something too. You can't take down a dragon dealing 1d3+strength unarmed strikes.
Step 2. Get the cleric to cast an empowered piercing cold energy sub (cold) fire seeds. Equip the ninja with the ring.
Step 3. Stay 100 ft away, hiding, while the cleric summons a fast moving monster and gives the cold seeds to it
Step 4. Send the monster to move over, and drop the cold seeds within 5 ft of the dragon (somehow)
Step 5. Say the command word, blow the dragon up, dealing ... 12d8+408 damage.
Step 6. Send the dwarf and the ninja to kill the dragon, who has probably lost about 450 hit points.

Melrob
2007-02-08, 07:15 AM
We're currently running through Zuggtmoy's Shedaklah realm and a few weeks ago fought a gancient black dragon who pretty much ruled the swamp in the north. We comprise of 6 players, levels 18-21.


The dragon had an AC of 63, fully buffed....and when dispelled it would go underwater and rebuff in 3 rounds. It was the hardest fight we'd had in at least two years real time. Dragons should never be less than exceedingly difficult to beat.