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Mongobear
2014-02-25, 03:32 AM
Hello all, long time Lurker, first time poster. I have encountered an issue with my current gaming group, and cant come up with a solution, so i turn to you people to hopefully get an unbiased opinion on the matter.

Last year I moved to a new town, and began gaming with a new group of friends I met at the local gaming store. However, I joined in during the fall-out of their current game system, as many of the players are dissatisfied with their current game of choice (D&D 3.5). For the past 2-3 months, whenever we gather for our weekly session, we barely get anything done, and group morale is often a mixture of "I cant believe were still playing this game" "I wish there was a less complicated game system" and/or "God I hate all of these rules."

We have established a few problems with our group--many of us use laptops/tablets for record sheets, and we tend to multi-task a different game during "down time" and lose track of the dungeon. We've taken steps to remove this, back to actual Pen and Paper, No books at game table unless GM says so, penalties for not paying attention, however it has done little to solve the issues at hand.

Our group decision was to try and find a new game system, hopefully relatively on the cheaper side, but since there's several of us contributing, cost can be seen as a non-issue for now. Were looking for a game system with several of the following characteristics:

1) Near Perfect Balance of RP to Combat,
2) No complex character builds/Skill maintenance
3) Pick up and go for new players/unfortunate player death
4) Capable to be s "Wing-It" game
5) Forgiving to new players, but also satisfying to min/max power gamers who try to be the best at their chosen role

If a system meets maybe three of the above criteria we as a group would most likely at least consider it for a test run. This may not be taken kindly, but a few of us in the group are not above getting PDF copies of source books to test a game we later buy if its worth owning, so almost any game is obtainable.

If you have suggestions please let me know or give your own opinions on what can be done to boost our group back to its glory days of having fun with RPGs.

inexorabletruth
2014-02-25, 05:55 AM
Thinking outside of the box here:

You sound like your group would get more out of MMORPGs than traditional tabletop RPGs. It has all 5 of the characteristics you're looking for:

1)Game Balance - check.
2)Simple build and Char maint - check
3)Pick up and go - seriously… check
4)Wing it - checking it so hard
5)Forgiving to new players, good for optimizers - check, to an extent

However, if you're fixed on the idea of tabletop RPGs, here's my top pics:

D&D 4E:
If D&D is what you know, then 4e has what you need. I've played it several times and find it's simplicity refreshing, while it's environment is still familiar. I'm a D&D loyalist so it's hard not to show favoritism to the system. It's got 1, 2, 3 and 5 in the bag. 4 to an extent. Even though D&D isn't the kind of system that is designed for GMs to just wing it, DMs who don't like to put a lot of thought into the campaigns seem to prefer 4e over other versions.

Savage Worlds:
Savage Worlds is kind of an insane game, but it's simple and streamlined for action. It should cover
2, 3, 4, and 5

GURPS:
I've never played it, myself, but it comes highly recommended by many gamers and game critics.

Based on what I've heard, it would cover 1, 2, and 4.

Mutants and Masterminds:
It has a reputation for being well balanced and versatile. The learning curve, I've been told is relatively light if you're familiar with the d20 system. So, it covers 1, 4 and 5 pretty well.

Kaervaslol
2014-02-25, 06:05 AM
Runequest, Dragon Warriors, Basic Fantasy Roleplaying. AD&D 2e is also pretty coo, and there is an update version called Myth and Magic with less offensive mechanics for the modern player (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/100492/Myth--Magic-Players-Starter-Guide?manufacturers_id=114). The starter product is free.

Rondodu
2014-02-25, 06:43 AM
1) Near Perfect Balance of RP to CombatI won’t be able to help much (most the game I play are only edited in French), but I’d want to point out that “Near perfect balance of RP to combat” is very subjective. To some people, it could mean barely any combat while to other it could mean several fighting scene each session. I would suggest getting into more details.

Jornophelanthas
2014-02-25, 07:41 AM
I would suggest (Old) World of Darkness, specifically Vampire: the Masquerade or Werewolf: the Apocalypse.

Vampire:
1) Near Perfect Balance of RP to Combat
If D&D 3.5 has its balance out of whack in favour of combat, Vampire is relatively combat-light (although combats can still be tense and engaging). Check.

2) No complex character builds/Skill maintenance
Characters have Attributes and Abilities that are combined for rolls, Virtues that maintain how much control the player keeps over the character's baser urges, and Disciplines that give all the cool powers (with varying degrees of complexity). No levels, but experience points can be spent to raise stats. Check.

3) Pick up and go for new players/unfortunate player death
Creating characters requires some thought to come up with a roleplaying concept, but the actual process of finding out what to put on the character sheet is quite easy compared to D&D 3.5 with its many tables to consult. Check.

4) Capable to be s "Wing-It" game
Vampire requires a DM with a decent grasp of the setting and a thought-out storyline to actually work, so this one would be a "no".

5) Forgiving to new players, but also satisfying to min/max power gamers who try to be the best at their chosen role
New players can easily find their footing, while power gamers may find themselves challenged at first (with diminishing returns, though). "Being best at their chosen role" is more dependent on roleplaying decisions than on character builds than in D&D 3.5.

Werewolf:
1) Near Perfect Balance of RP to Combat,
See Vampire, but with a bigger emphasis on combat. Check.

2) No complex character builds/Skill maintenance
Werewolves are shapeshifters with 5 shapes to choose from. This requires some getting used to, but it should not be too hard for those who have played Druids in D&D 3.5. The same Attributes and Abilities system as Vampire, but Virtues and Disciplines are replaced with Rage, Gnosis and Gifts, which work differently. Still a check.

3) Pick up and go for new players/unfortunate player death
Players are required to be a little more invested in the setting than with Vampire, as they are required to define their character's role in werewolf society upon character creation (and are free to tweak this or rebel against it during play). Borderline check.

4) Capable to be s "Wing-It" game
Moreso than Vampire, Werewolf can lend itself to "kick in the door" style of play. But still not as much as D&D. Check.

5) Forgiving to new players, but also satisfying to min/max power gamers who try to be the best at their chosen role
Moreso than Vampire, Werewolf can challenge player's builds, as there are many roles to specialise in. Playing a raging monster is an easy fallback, but does sell the system short if that's all you want to do. Check.

Gavran
2014-02-25, 07:58 AM
Edit: If you want something that's just nothing like 3.5, then 4E isn't your answer. It really depends on what you like/don't like from the system.

Nthing Fourth Edition, here. As a bonus, a DDI subscription would be quite cheap for your group to try it out for a month and nets you all published content and the very handy Character Builder.



1) Near Perfect Balance of RP to Combat,
Isn't this really more of what your group makes of it? 4E has very good mechanical balance, meaning all characters are useful in and out of combat. How you spend your time is up to you.



2) No complex character builds/Skill maintenance
Skills are "trained" at character creation and scale with attributes and level. Other than a few feats, the skills you have don't change much after that point. Leveling up is usually a matter of picking a new power or two and sometimes a feat. It's not absent of complexity, but I can't imagine 3.5 players finding it taxing.



3) Pick up and go for new players/unfortunate player death
Varies wildly based on the level of the character, as levels determine the amount of powers, feats and items you have to choose from. Character building tools streamline very nicely.



4) Capable to be s "Wing-It" game
Can't help as much here, I'm only a player, but I've heard it's a decent system for it. Enemies are certainly many times simpler than they were in 3.5, they use a different and highly simplified system compared to that for PCs.



5) Forgiving to new players, but also satisfying to min/max power gamers who try to be the best at their chosen role Provided the game is in the early levels (until about 10) and you avoid a few particularly bad classes (Vampire, Assassin and Bladesinger mostly) and poorly executed hybrids (do not attempt one until you are familiar with the system), just about any character will be effective. Players uncomfortable with optimization can choose a class from the Essentials line which has a higher optimization floor, and non-Essentials classes have high optimization ceilings. The gap between the worst PC and the best is much narrower than in 3.5 however. Also note that the Essentials classes are variants on standard classes, so most archetypes are covered for either playstyle.

Do of course feel free to make a thread in our little 4E corner if you decide to give it a spin and have trouble adjusting. Rehabilitating 3.5 refugees is something of a hobby. :smallwink:

Rhynn
2014-02-25, 08:20 AM
D&D 4E fails hard at 2., 3., and 4.

Try pretty much any D&D retroclone - check out my sig for several free ones. My favorite is ACKS (not free). The most complicated part of character creation is buying equipment, and that's easily fixed with pre-made equipment packages (like old D&D module premades had, and as ACKS has; there's over 100 such packages in the Player's Companion, with a 3d6 roll determining your package rather than your starting gold).

TriForce
2014-02-25, 08:42 AM
well, i would not advice 4th edition to you, for some of the above reasons.

abberant, vampire, werewolf, those would do better, altough they are (usually) a bit more RP heavy.

pathfinder might be a option? if you want a "3.5 thats better balanced"

hell, in your desciption, it sounds like its less a problem of the system, and more of a problem that the campaign isnt captivating enough, so im not sure what to recommand really

1337 b4k4
2014-02-25, 09:11 AM
Were looking for a game system with several of the following characteristics:

1) Near Perfect Balance of RP to Combat,
2) No complex character builds/Skill maintenance
3) Pick up and go for new players/unfortunate player death
4) Capable to be s "Wing-It" game
5) Forgiving to new players, but also satisfying to min/max power gamers who try to be the best at their chosen role

If a system meets maybe three of the above criteria we as a group would most likely at least consider it for a test run. This may not be taken kindly, but a few of us in the group are not above getting PDF copies of source books to test a game we later buy if its worth owning, so almost any game is obtainable.

Assuming your group wants to continue playing D&D-esque fantasy and adventure, and they don't have trust issues with their DM, I strongly suggest Dungeon World (http://www.dungeon-world.com/) with an on-line copy of the rules here (http://book.dwgazetteer.com/) and a fantastic guide with play examples here (http://www.dungeon-world.com/dungeon-world-guide/). There's also an excellent (and recent) actual play cast on youtube from RolePlay R&D. It hits almost all the things you're looking for:

Balance of RP / Combat: DW is balanced however the DM sets up your adventure. All RP, it can handle it (though you might want some new moves houseruled to replace combat moves), all combat, it can do that too, albeit it would get deadly quick, and anything in between.

No Complex Character Builds: Everything you need for your character, from level 1 to level 10 fits on one sheet of paper, front and back. An exception exists for the cleric and wizard classes for spell lists.

Pick Up and Go: Character creation takes about 10 minutes of answering some general questions and allocating a pre-selected array of stats. New players can begin playing without even knowing the rules as the whole idea behind the game is that your moves are triggered by what you describe your character as doing, not by deciding to trigger the move (it's a bit odd, but it makes sense once you read up on how the game works).

Wing It: Oh my yes. The whole game philosophy is around playing the game to fill in the blanks. The game encourages the DM to leave things up in the air, play by the seat of their pants and ask for input from the players in shaping the game world. It is awesome.

New Players / Min-Max: The game is extremely forgiving to new players (even more so if the DM plays slow and gentle) but in the area of satisfying to Min-Maxers it may fall down. While there are plenty of options, ultimately each class is it's own packet and gets things at prescribed times. Not a whole lot of room for min-maxing.

As an alternative, if your players really want D&D and all of its classic tropes, any of the retro-clones would fill most of those requirements and be fully compatible with the old D&D modules. Personal recommendations for Swords and Wizardry for simple, free form and wing it or Dark Dungeons for more complete with more room for character optimization by way of weapon proficiencies and skills.

Talos
2014-02-25, 10:28 AM
the Cortex system is really easy imho. in addition to that they have many different flavors of RPG genre's anything from Leverage to Battlestar Gallactica. my fave is Serenity.

Mongobear
2014-02-25, 05:43 PM
Wow, thanks all for your quick responses. I guess I should elaborate on my original post a little bit better as well.

Our groups' players consist of 6 people total, 1 DM and 5 Party members usually. 2 of the players and the DM are constantly wishing we could have a camaign where we can RP in character more, I am in the middle where I can RP if the moments right, but I get apprehensive quickly thus devolving into the next group, and the other 2 players are more of a "Kick-in the door, steal the loot, kill the monster, f*** the plot" type of player. Most of the time when any form of conversation encounter happens, the 2 players who want to actually RP through it get bulled over by penis jokes or other terrible OOC remarks that tend to ruin the moment, or one of the 2 Rambo characters just blasts the guy in the face with a fireball and steals his coin purse.

Now that I think of it, our group is very much similar to the "Gamers 2:Dorkness Rising" party, but with an extra player like the female cast member, and 3 of the Sorceress/Bard combo.

We are looking for a system, optimally a d20 ruleset since thats what were familiar with, that without any true preparation or DM intervention, requires players to RP even to a minimal extent, but will not bore the Rambo players to death.

As of last night, we have searched around the net and found a few gaming systems that caught our interest:

1) Star Wars Saga Edition (Many of us are huge sci-fi geeks, and we love star wars as our movie of choice)

2) Dresden RPG (Our usual DM found this and is a fan of the books)

3) WH40K Dark Heresy/WH Fantasy RPG (Most of us are fans of the games/books and I DMed my own D20 version of a Fantasy based campaign several years back)

4) Pathfinder (Seems to be most peoples default "D&D 3.5 Band-Aid" for burn-outs of D&D"

Can anyone elaborate on any of these 4 games are how they fit into my original list of features?

1337 b4k4
2014-02-25, 07:11 PM
4) Pathfinder (Seems to be most peoples default "D&D 3.5 Band-Aid" for burn-outs of D&D"

Can anyone elaborate on any of these 4 games are how they fit into my original list of features?

Not commenting on the other systems because I don't know enough about them to make a statement I'd feel comfortable supporting. As far as Pathfinder goes, if the following statement you made in the OP is true:


For the past 2-3 months, whenever we gather for our weekly session, we barely get anything done, and group morale is often a mixture of "I cant believe were still playing this game" "I wish there was a less complicated game system" and/or "God I hate all of these rules."

Then Pathfinder is not the system for you. Pathfinder is D&D 3.5 with some rules fixes and some house rules thrown in. That isn't to say it's a bad system, but if your group doesn't like 3.5 because of the systems level of complication and rules depth, Pathfinder is no panacea.

Mongobear
2014-02-25, 07:45 PM
D&D 4E fails hard at 2., 3., and 4.

Try pretty much any D&D retroclone - check out my sig for several free ones. My favorite is ACKS (not free). The most complicated part of character creation is buying equipment, and that's easily fixed with pre-made equipment packages (like old D&D module premades had, and as ACKS has; there's over 100 such packages in the Player's Companion, with a 3d6 roll determining your package rather than your starting gold).

Omg, I am almost in love with ACKS, It reminds me so much of First Edition D&D, but with a more modernized setting. I might bring this one forward to the group. Plus though it isnt free, its only $10 for the PDF version. This is excellent for our group.

Rhynn
2014-02-26, 12:49 AM
Omg, I am almost in love with ACKS, It reminds me so much of First Edition D&D, but with a more modernized setting. I might bring this one forward to the group. Plus though it isnt free, its only $10 for the PDF version. This is excellent for our group.

Be sure to check out the forums (http://www.autarch.co/forum), where people post new classes & rules and Alexander Macris answers rules questions, etc.


1) Star Wars Saga Edition (Many of us are huge sci-fi geeks, and we love star wars as our movie of choice)

Fails #2, #3, #4, probably #5. Basically it's just D&D 3.X in the Star Wars universe. If you hate 3.X, this game probably won't be any better for you.


3) WH40K Dark Heresy/WH Fantasy RPG (Most of us are fans of the games/books and I DMed my own D20 version of a Fantasy based campaign several years back)

Warhammer Fantasy and the WH40K RPGs are wildly different. The WH40K games definitely fail #2 and #4, probably #5 - they're hugely deep and fairly complex rules-wise. WFRP depends on edition, but I can only speak to 1st and 2nd, which IMO definitely succeed at #2 and #5.


4) Pathfinder (Seems to be most peoples default "D&D 3.5 Band-Aid" for burn-outs of D&D"

It's just D&D 3.X with a bunch of differences. If you think 3.X is too rules-heavy (I agree!), Pathfinder won't help one bit. Fails #1-#5 to varying degrees.


Generally, #1 is about how the game is run, but mechanics do produce results, and some games have mechanics that encourage RP. Similarly, #4 is about how the game is run - ACKS for instance can work great for pick-up games if you use a module (basically all old D&D modules are compatible, you'll have to alter AC, XP values, and Morale Scores, but most of the monsters are in the ACKS rulebook anyway) or create a sandbox to run it in (the book has great instructions for that). There's good tools in the book to make it easier to create a dungeon and a setting.

Troacctid
2014-02-26, 01:52 AM
2) Dresden RPG (Our usual DM found this and is a fan of the books)

The Dresden Files RPG is based on the Fate system, which excels at role-playing and "winging it". Definitely look into it--if nothing else, you can splice some of its features onto another system. Also, the Dresden Files books are great, you should all read them.

Mongobear
2014-02-26, 01:54 AM
Well, we have done a little bit of brain storming trying to identify our main problems with the game, and we've come up with the following as the the most common complaints.

1) 3.5 Edition is just too big.

There are so many official rule books, setting specific rule books, and 3rd party supplements, that our group just feels like a random assortment of people from 5 different planets. Each of us has our own favorite setting of choice, so as a way to satisfy everyone, our DM allows pretty much everything from an official, printed book as long as it doesn't outright break the game.

So there is very little tieing the group together when we have an Eberron Xendrik Drow Duskblade, a Faerun Uthgardt Dragon Shaman, a vanilla Human Factotum pretending to be a pirate, an Oriental themed Half-Elf Warblade, and a Warforged Divine Mind all gathered at a secluded Roadside Inn, when a battered mud-covered man stumbles through the door, and collapses because of a knife wound in his ribs and a soggy map clutched in his hand.

The above scenario was a party we had last year when starting a brand new campaign, sufficed it to say, it took nearly 3 months for everyone to finally remember what everyone was and capable of doing, which could have been avoided if the party was something more simple.


2)Too much information to keep track of.

With Feats, Skills, Spell Lists, Spells Known/Per Day, Animal Companions/Mounts, Experience Goals, Racial Bonuses, Class Abilities, etc; 3.5 just seems to be entirely too heavy once a character start to start coming into mid-level range. Coming from someone who uses a lap top to record all of his characters' abilities, spells, loot, and even an adventure journal, I sometimes feel overwhelmed trying to find something I recorded earlier in an adventure, or to remember exactly what certain things do despite keeping track of it.


Those were the two biggest issues our group agreed upon. It might just be the vastly different opinions of what our group is looking for in an RPG, however, when 3 or 4 or the 5 of us all say the same thing in an email without talking amongst ourselves to establish an opinion, there must be some issue with the game itself right?

Rhynn
2014-02-26, 02:17 AM
It might just be the vastly different opinions of what our group is looking for in an RPG, however, when 3 or 4 or the 5 of us all say the same thing in an email without talking amongst ourselves to establish an opinion, there must be some issue with the game itself right?

There's nothing inherently wrong with most RPGs (there are big exceptions, like deadEarth), but the single most important criteria is, obviously, "do we like it?"


1) 3.5 Edition is just too big.

2)Too much information to keep track of.

If these are your problems, there are many RPGs to fix them (but Dark Heresy and Pathfinder are definitely not it). Any D&D retroclone should work wonders for you. D&D 3.X is very large and complicated, as RPGs go; some other games are on the same level (GURPS, for instance, has such a large corebook so stuffed full of material that I can't even be bothered to wade through it anymore), but most aren't.

Mongobear
2014-02-26, 02:23 AM
If these are your problems, there are many RPGs to fix them (but Dark Heresy and Pathfinder are definitely not it). Any D&D retroclone should work wonders for you. D&D 3.X is very large and complicated, as RPGs go; some other games are on the same level (GURPS, for instance, has such a large corebook so stuffed full of material that I can't even be bothered to wade through it anymore), but most aren't.

Well, thats what I dont understand about some people's opinion on Dark Heresy. I played it for about 2 years when it was first released, and I thought it was relatively "light" as far as RPGs go. I mean, character creation was pretty long and drawn out, but once you finished everything, you barely changed anything during leveling up, and your values didnt change that much, aside from the random +10/+20 bonuses you buy at each Rank of your class. Plus I liked that Experience was more of a currency than a vague measure of power that d20 seems to use it for.

Rhynn
2014-02-26, 02:27 AM
Granted, Dark Heresy is probably at the easier end of those games, but the sheer volume of talents etc. to track is impressive. I can't even imagine running or playing Deathwatch because every last character has so many talents that affect how things work. But that's me - I prefer lighter games.

Mongobear
2014-02-26, 02:36 AM
Are there any D&D 3.5 clones that are very light on overall material? We really thought the idea of the Star Wars Sagas RPG and that only really has ~15 books from the search I did, and several of them are "Campaign Settings" which wouldnt even matter depending on where we set up.

By "light on material" I mean less than 10-15 total sourcebooks across the whole of the game.

Rhynn
2014-02-26, 03:44 AM
Well, Conan d20 is pretty great - it's got a bunch of supplemental sourcebooks, but you really don't need anything other than the core book. It works out much simpler than D&D 3.X/PF, in my opinion - largely because spellcasters aren't as complex/versatile and because there's no slew of magic items.

SWSaga books are definitely mechanical sourcebooks, in large part.

There's also True20 you could check out.

Myth & Magic from the retroclones might work - it's a modernized AD&D 2E retroclone, still simple.

I guess you could look into Hackmaster Basic/5th Edition, but the game plays pretty cumbersome, IMO; 4th edition is definitely not quick and easy - character creation is long, slow, and complicated.

NikitaDarkstar
2014-02-26, 04:31 AM
You may be comfterble with D20 Modern, it has it's own set of issues but a rather limited set of books, and can, despite what the name suggests, do historical settings, sci-fi, and even a bit of magic half-way decently.

Iron Heroes is another system you may feel at home in. It's by Monte Cook (who played a big part in D&D) but it's a much more narrow system. It has some cumbersome things going on, and the battle-system is somewhat micro-managey, but around a table it can be quite fun (don't try to play it online though, it turns into a god damn nightmare, it requires a table) and comes with just enough setting fluff to make everyone feel like they're actually from the same world. Also no magic/one very limited magic class (which is completely optional) which does a lot for balance.

But if you really want something different I would give Dresden Files(/Fate) a long hard look. It's mechanics simply doesn't work if you don't role play, which may or may not upset your door-kickers. Don't get me wrong, they can still kick in doors and take all the loot, but they have to actually role play it. But they may also find that they really, really enjoy that.

And I just have to give my view on the gURPS recommendation up there. It's a good system that can do anything. But if you don't like D&D 3.5's complex characters and tracking of stuff you will not enjoy gurps. It's extremely unwieldy because it tries to do EVERYTHING and, well, either a math major or a computer program is strongly recommended for character creation. It can be fun once you get going, but it's not a very easy system.

Lorsa
2014-02-26, 06:49 AM
If you are using all the sourcebooks to D&D 3.5 and then complain that there are too many rules you really brought the problem on yourself.

I do think that forgetting about D&D for a while and looking into a few other systems will do you good as knowing about what's out there is always beneficial.

However, it seems to me that your problem isn't really with the game system but something else.

Regardless of your game system, if you're not paying attention during the game and multitasking heavily your experience will be diminished.

Similarly, regardless of your game system, if you do not create a "cohesive" party that at least thematically can fit together, it will always be weird.

So while looking into a new system is good, a lot of your problems have nothing at all to do with the system. Changing it won't solve all those problems.

Mongobear
2014-02-26, 07:34 PM
If you are using all the sourcebooks to D&D 3.5 and then complain that there are too many rules you really brought the problem on yourself.

Well, I am not the one using all of them, each of our players has his own "Plane/Setting of choice" and to be fair, our DM allows most anything from an official WotC book, so long as it doesn't blatantly break the game.

I tend to stick more towards limiting my choices the the Core, Complete, Races of, and PHB2/DMG2/MMX ranged of books for anything i create, I tend to avoid setting specific books and create vanilla friendly characters.


I do think that forgetting about D&D for a while and looking into a few other systems will do you good as knowing about what's out there is always beneficial.

However, it seems to me that your problem isn't really with the game system but something else.

We believe this too, but were in an "experimental" stage where we are trying to see if a more exciting setting might shake up interest and get us back into things. We are pretty much set on attempting Star Wars Saga at this point, with a potential swap of DMs as well. So hopefully, that will get everyone back into things.


Regardless of your game system, if you're not paying attention during the game and multitasking heavily your experience will be diminished.

Similarly, regardless of your game system, if you do not create a "cohesive" party that at least thematically can fit together, it will always be weird.

So while looking into a new system is good, a lot of your problems have nothing at all to do with the system. Changing it won't solve all those problems.

Yeah this is the major issue we have established as needing definite change. Starting either this week or next, we plan to enact the following measures to ensure were not wasting each others time during gaming sessions.

1) No Electronic devices during Gaming, except for emergencies. Only one laptop will be available for use to quickly check rules or look up specific things as needed by DM permission only. And no open books at the table unless we are leveling up or purchasing equipment.

2) Complete return to Pen and Paper characters/Notes and use of real dice.

3) If someone is not paying attention intentionally, they get a warning. At three warnings, they lose out on experience for the entire session.

Hopefully this will enact some much needed changes in the overall mood of the group and actually get them back into the game so they're not buried in their computers during a game, or trolling a forum during combat and miss out on whats going on.

NikitaDarkstar
2014-02-26, 07:46 PM
Personally I'd allow books for spellcasters/classes with similar levels of book-keeping. But only if they use it to read up and prepare for their round. If it becomes clear they're just using it as a distraction however? Yhea, that should have consequences.

Mongobear
2014-02-26, 08:15 PM
We were planning on going to notecards or tiny notebooks for spellbooks, that way its almost like you really do have a spellbook, i know its a little more prep work, but an hour of prep before we begin saves the entire group headaches in the future.

Dorian Gray
2014-02-26, 08:16 PM
Can I put in another vote for the Dresden Files? It's really very simple- just a couple six-siders, with one of three or so bonuses added to them- and I picked it up after reading through the equivalent of the PHB. Also, there are only 2 books you need (and really, you won't want others). Finally, the books and the RPG both effectively work off of the rules of cool, so...
http://theearthtourist.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/1248964599329.jpg?w=387&h=483]

Rhynn
2014-02-27, 03:38 AM
We were planning on going to notecards or tiny notebooks for spellbooks, that way its almost like you really do have a spellbook, i know its a little more prep work, but an hour of prep before we begin saves the entire group headaches in the future.

I've recently gotten a bunch of index cards to put spells on. I can fit 1-2 spells on one side of a card, which in ACKS means 3-5 cards per level of spells for clerics (so a total of up to 30 cards) and somewhat less for mages. This takes very little actual prep-time, especially for mages: a few minutes per spell when you learn a new one.

Mongobear
2014-02-27, 04:39 AM
That was basically our reasoning on it too, I used to do this way back when I played AD&D regularly. A few minutes every level and I'd never have to touch a book again until the next level.

neonchameleon
2014-02-27, 06:11 AM
1) Near Perfect Balance of RP to Combat,
2) No complex character builds/Skill maintenance
3) Pick up and go for new players/unfortunate player death
4) Capable to be s "Wing-It" game
5) Forgiving to new players, but also satisfying to min/max power gamers who try to be the best at their chosen role

First thoughts: 1 is utterly subjective while 2 and 5 are in tension.


D&D 4E fails hard at 2., 3., and 4.

Here I disagree. It nails 4 better than any other system I know where you don't use post-its for NPC statblocks and hits 2 when you are used to d20.


We are looking for a system, optimally a d20 ruleset since thats what were familiar with, that without any true preparation or DM intervention, requires players to RP even to a minimal extent, but will not bore the Rambo players to death.

As of last night, we have searched around the net and found a few gaming systems that caught our interest:

1) Star Wars Saga Edition (Many of us are huge sci-fi geeks, and we love star wars as our movie of choice)

2) Dresden RPG (Our usual DM found this and is a fan of the books)

3) WH40K Dark Heresy/WH Fantasy RPG (Most of us are fans of the games/books and I DMed my own D20 version of a Fantasy based campaign several years back)

4) Pathfinder (Seems to be most peoples default "D&D 3.5 Band-Aid" for burn-outs of D&D"

Can anyone elaborate on any of these 4 games are how they fit into my original list of features?

Off the top of my head:
* Pathfinder is 3.5 + houserules. It's the default for people who want a supported game and are still pretty happy with 3.5
* I don't think WH40K is what you want at all.
* Star Wars: Saga is very min-max breakable (The Force Wins plain and simple)
* Dresden Files (you only need volume 1) fits the bill but is very different from the assumptions you are used to. Nails all five points. It's the one I'd go with.

Mongobear
2014-03-01, 02:09 AM
Ok, small update after a series of 1 on 1 conversations with each of the other members.

There are a few majority problems and compromises each is willing to make, listed by importance:

1) Most are willing to start limiting our available Source books, if everyone else agrees to it, as well as having us all settle on either a generic campaign world, or a pre-existing one such as Eberron/Forgotten Realms that way some flavor and variety of options is still an option.

2) Should the above compromise not be accepted by everyone, they are willing to swap game systems, however, the proposed game system, SW:SE was not as widely accepted as I initially expected it to be. Several players were instantly groaning about its similarities to 4E, as well as one players immediate outright refusal to play unless I banned force users flat out. (While I do agree the Force Powers can be broken, and was thinking of limiting it to a 1-2 of maximum in a 6 person group, outright banning it seems a little extreme)

3) Interest in a simple swap to Pathfinder was generally a neutral/slightly accepted alternative, however, some feared it turning into the same situation we have now, should we start spreading out to all the sourcebooks possible.

In addition, to the above, we as a group fully accepted the removal of all electronic devices from our gaming group(except for cell phones on vibrate in case of emergency, obviously) with the exception of the DM operated laptop for rules references), and everyone was whole-heartedly willing to go back to the old school Paper Character Sheets, Pencils, and Notecards for everything, which honestly shocked me and left me a little dumbfounded at its universal acceptance without ANY arguement.

Hopefully, with these upcoming changes we can start enjoying the game again, and get back into a hobby we've enjoyed for over a decade.

Lorsa
2014-03-01, 05:33 PM
Sounds like progress to me!

Jornophelanthas
2014-03-02, 07:49 AM
Whether you end up playing a version of D&D 3.5 of Pathfinder, one general tip to keep in mind if you want to avoid the "everyone comes from a different planet" syndrome ("ECFADPS"?), have the DM clamp down on the races and classes on offer, or focus on a specific part of the gameworld.

Honestly, just because the books make it possible to play a Half-Dragon Gnoll Vampire gestalt Cleric//Swordsage (even if you all agree each of those books is allowed), that still doesn't mean that such a character should be allowed.

It sounds to me like your DM just doesn't know how to say "no" to the players. Sometimes, less is more, and this is one of those cases. If all player characters have enough in common and enough connection to the part of the game world where you are playing, then a believable group cohesion can take root.

So, even if you agree on certain books, you should all be aware that the characters you create must still fit together, and should still be disallowed if they don't.

GungHo
2014-03-03, 11:37 AM
We were planning on going to notecards or tiny notebooks for spellbooks, that way its almost like you really do have a spellbook, i know its a little more prep work, but an hour of prep before we begin saves the entire group headaches in the future.

While I don't care for the game, D&D 4E is pretty much designed to be played with index cards. All those little blocky doodads for all the classes' powers fit on index cards. I'd honestly be surprised if they didn't sell bricks of index cards with all the powers.

Lord of Shadows
2014-03-03, 11:59 AM
We were planning on going to notecards or tiny notebooks for spellbooks, that way its almost like you really do have a spellbook, i know its a little more prep work, but an hour of prep before we begin saves the entire group headaches in the future.

One Pathfinder-campaign DM here has made a character packet for each character. Each packet is one of those big 9-ish by 12-ish clasp envelopes. It holds 3x5 index cards that actually represent our character's resources. We have a single index card for each spell, spell-like ability, Domain power, or anything that is a "usable X times per day" type of resource. When we use that resource/spell, we turn in the card to the DM. We also have cards for each magic item, and it is noted on each whether it is worn or stored and the charges for a charged item. For example, I have a cleric with a Domain power usable 8 times per day. I have 8 index cards each with that Domain power written on them. When I want to use that power, I turn in a card. When the powers reset (next day) the DM gives me back the cards I have used.

This may sound like too much trouble, and the first few times we used it we did have to make more spell cards as people changed up their spell lists. Now, however, it has settled down and is actually a pretty streamlined way of handling resource management. Also in each packet are poker chips that represent the actual coins each character is carrying, with different colored chips as the different types of coins, plus we also wrote on them with Sharpie so it says right on it what it is.

We also used different colored markers for the different spell levels. Level one spells might all be in green marker, level two all in orange, etc. We also get new cards when there is a new magic item found, which prevents a lot of confusion over who is carrying what. If it's in your packet, you have it. If not, you don't.

Many of us also keep a current stat-block type character sheet in our packets. This allows the character to be somewhat available even if we as a player may miss a session.

Our characters are now around 14th level, so the packets are kinda thick, but still manageable. Plus it's nice to whip out a spell card and pass it to the DM and see the surprise (or consternation) on his face.
.

kyoryu
2014-03-03, 06:32 PM
Points two and five are kind of mutually exclusive. Min/Max power gamers get bored without a build system sufficiently complex for them to actually, well, optimize.

Point one is more about how the GM runs the game than anything.

Here's what I'd recommend:

Old-school D&D. As in, 1E or B/X.

Apocalypse World or one of its hacks

Fate.

Cortex.

Those are the systems which, in my opinion, best capture the points you're looking for, with the exception of "sufficient build complexity for min-maxers".

It may be worth pitching a few one-off sessions to see which systems people like.

Specifically, these systems are all good at addressing many of the points you've identified as problems. They're simple enough to be played without electronic aids, and they're fast enough to help combat the endless "waiting-for-my-turn" that plagues 4e and, to a slightly lesser degree, 3.x/PF.

I've generally found higher levels of player engagement when running (specifically) Fate or *W than 3.x/4e/GURPS/etc. Only the most hardcore "if it's not my turn I'm tuning out" people have ever really tuned out of a game, and *that* was even only when running with something like 7 people.

*World is probably a bit faster for one-shots than Fate Core, unless you use pregens or use Fate Accelerated.

Mutazoia
2014-03-03, 10:38 PM
Well if I may be allowed to gently loft my two copper pieces into the enclosed circular area:

There are a couple of other options that I didn't see mentioned:

Star Wars D6 (or any other D6 for that matter)

and Amber Diceless

Star Wars D6 is a pretty fast paced, easy to learn system that can have you through character creation and up and running in a few minutes with the handy-dandy character templates in the back of the book. This also makes creating new/replacement characters a snap. Combat is usually fast with not a lot of number crunching (Gm assigns a target number, you roll the number of D6 equal to your skill to meet or beat that number). As I said character creation is fast...just assign a few points to customize a template and your golden. There are rules for making your own template but even using those you can still get a character ready to fight the Empire a lot quicker than most RPGs.

Amber is a bit more tricky. Based on the series of Amber novels by Roger Zalazney, the system is entirely narrative driven (by both the GM and the players) and with no dice there are only 4 numbers you really have to worry about keeping track of...and once the character is made they are just a ranking in each attribute. The highest rank always wins. (unless you find a way to cheat.) Theoretically in Amber you can do anything you can think of....it just might not work the way you are trying at the moment. Basically it's a very RP heavy game...even the combat is RP'd out (since, as I said, there are no random die rolls to determine the outcome). You can "shadow walk", which is the in universe term for traveling between alternate realities...(individual realities are called "shadows"). Anything you can think of can be found somewhere out in shadow....but be careful what you wish for :)

neonchameleon
2014-03-04, 03:57 PM
Points two and five are kind of mutually exclusive. Min/Max power gamers get bored without a build system sufficiently complex for them to actually, well, optimize.

This isn't always true. Playing 3.X or GURPS I consider myself an inveterate min-maxer (and pretty good at it). On the other hand I don't especially min-max 4e, Fate, or *World. I don't need to. I can make the characters I want to without min-maxing. And I get the same aesthetic pleasure from making something ... unexpected or even just appreciate the artistry of the playbooks and the specific game involved in playing one already there as hard as I can. So it's not always a strong relationship.

kyoryu
2014-03-04, 06:11 PM
This isn't always true. Playing 3.X or GURPS I consider myself an inveterate min-maxer (and pretty good at it). On the other hand I don't especially min-max 4e, Fate, or *World. I don't need to. I can make the characters I want to without min-maxing. And I get the same aesthetic pleasure from making something ... unexpected or even just appreciate the artistry of the playbooks and the specific game involved in playing one already there as hard as I can. So it's not always a strong relationship.

Fair 'nuff. My point would be better stated as "any game with a build system sufficiently complex to scratch the min-max itch is, by definition, one that is complex."

A min-maxer can enjoy a game without min-maxing, it's just something they won't do in *that* game.

Devils_Advocate
2014-03-04, 09:18 PM
It sounds like your problem wasn't with the system itself, but with the lack of a single setting / theme / whatever that everyone liked, with the result that the rules and flavor used in the campaign were all over the place.

I suggest asking the players to each come up with two lists. One list is all of the things they feel that they need to enjoy the game. The second is a collection of different possibilities for a campaign, any one of which the player anticipates enjoying.

So for example someone might give

List 1:
1. Regular combat
2. Political intrigue
3. Problems without predefined solutions
4. PCs can influence the fate of the world!

List 2:
1. Space opera
2. Zombie apocalypse
3. Civil war
4. Exploring a mysterious distant land

Then try to find or make a system, setting, adventure, and/or etc. that will satisfy everyone with a minimum amount of material.

Raum
2014-03-04, 09:48 PM
2) Should the above compromise not be accepted by everyone, they are willing to swap game systems, however, the proposed game system, SW:SE was not as widely accepted as I initially expected it to be. Given your previous criteria, I'd take a look at Savage Worlds ($10) and Unisystem (Witchcraft is free) if you come to this option. Savage Worlds is designed to reduce accounting and speed play (compared to d20). It's also well supported with a variety of different settings available...and most won't require more than one setting book for the players and two or three for the GM. On the other hand Unisystem will play closer to the d20 you're used to (still has hit points but replaces the d20 with a d10 for most rolls). On the down side, Unisystem's support is slow - basically a one person shop. Both systems are class-less and level-less.

You mentioned the Dresden Files RPG in a previous post - it uses Fate and is a fairly big departure from classical RPG systems. Not a bad thing, it's worth a try if you get the chance. However the system is as much about manipulating the meta-game story as it is about manipulating the in-game environment. Some like it a lot, others not so much.

Last item to look at is Mutants and Masterminds. It's a d20 game system set up for supers...and one of the better d20 "generic systems".

kyoryu
2014-03-05, 02:35 PM
It sounds like your problem wasn't with the system itself, but with the lack of a single setting / theme / whatever that everyone liked, with the result that the rules and flavor used in the campaign were all over the place.

I suggest asking the players to each come up with two lists. One list is all of the things they feel that they need to enjoy the game. The second is a collection of different possibilities for a campaign, any one of which the player anticipates enjoying.

So for example someone might give

List 1:
1. Regular combat
2. Political intrigue
3. Problems without predefined solutions
4. PCs can influence the fate of the world!

List 2:
1. Space opera
2. Zombie apocalypse
3. Civil war
4. Exploring a mysterious distant land

Then try to find or make a system, setting, adventure, and/or etc. that will satisfy everyone with a minimum amount of material.

This is also where I bring up the Spark - specifically "A Spark In Fate Core" (at www.drivethrurpg.com) is awesome for making a setting that has elements that the table finds interesting. While it's specifically for Fate Core, there's very, very little Fate-specific stuff in there, apart from a few aspects (which you can just substitute with "descriptive phrases").

If agreeing on a setting is the biggest issue, then you can certainly do worse than using Spark.

amalager
2014-03-07, 02:31 AM
I would suggest you guys shift to PC and MMORPG gaming at the moment, just as one of our comrade here suggested. PC/MMORPG is more flexible than playing online via consoles, plus you can do a lot of things with a PC. Now, I'll list down some of the games that I've been playing and I hope this will help you guys decide what to take into consideration.

•Eden Eternal
•Dragon Nest
•Eclipse War
•League of Legends
:smallsmile: