Easy NI Mental Stats By Level 10

[Rubik]

I don't know if anyone's come up with this idea before, but it's not even horrifically difficult. Just a couple of ACFs, a couple of feats, and a couple of powers.

The ardent has an alternative class feature called Dominant Ideal they gain at level 10, which basically allows them to use any number of metapsionic feats without expending their psionic focus.

Combine this with the Metapower feat from Complete Psionic, which reduces the cost of a metapsionic feat by 2, and the fact that there is no limit on how many times you can apply a metapsionic feat (other than the natural limit of how many psionic foci you've got available).

Note that Empower Power has a power point cost of +2. Now, by level 10, an ardent can literally apply Empower Power to a power an infinite number of times, which means infinite healing or damage, depending on the power used.

Now look at the other ACF ardents have, which basically allows you to cherry-pick powers to add to a mantle, and the fact that convert-spell-to-power erudites can learn any spells as powers and can access basically any spell in the game as an arcane spell with enough optimization. So add the Awaken spell to one of your ardent's mantles.

Now have your ardent manifest Metamorphosis and turn into a tree. Use Psionic Contingency for an Empowered (times nigh infinity) Awaken on himself.

Boom. NI Int/Wis/Cha.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Infinite loops are bad and they should feel bad. Arbitrarily large stats means arbitrarily large DC/PP/shenanigans; you have made diet Pun-pun.

[otakumick]

I'm not certain you can stack empower with itself... I know you can empower and maximize something, but I'm not so certain you can stack empower with itself...

[Rubik]

I'm not certain you can stack empower with itself... I know you can empower and maximize something, but I'm not so certain you can stack empower with itself...You can't for metamagic, but no place in all the psionics rules is there a prohibition on stacking metapsionics. Obviously ones like Quicken and Maximize won't do much good, but Empower is fine.

[ben-zayb]

I can't say if it's legal or not, but suffice to say NI mental stats is just the tip of the iceberg if this is the case. Case in point: stacking Link Power on Synchronicity for NI actions, and stacking Extend Power on any buff for NI duration.

[Gotterdammerung]

Empower doesn't stack with itself. You want the fortify power feat from Mind's Eye Web article "expand your mind". Also ardent ACF only works if the power is on your Mantle. I don't think there is an awaken Mantle.

[Rubik]

Empower doesn't stack with itself.I don't see that anywhere in the rules. It's not a bonus, after all, which is what the stacking rules deal with.


Also ardent ACF only works if the power is on your Mantle. I don't think there is an awaken Mantle.Note that there's a Nature mantle, and that another ACF allows you to alter the powers on your mantle, which I explicitly noted.

[Lanaya]

I don't see that anywhere in the rules. It's not a bonus, after all, which is what the stacking rules deal with.

Bonuses from the same source never stack unless otherwise specified.

[Rubik]

Bonuses from the same source never stack unless otherwise specified.And I'm not arguing against that at all. You even quoted me agreeing with that part.

[Gazzien]

This is... Damnit, Rubik.

I can't find a hole in this, so I resort to the "Infinite loops are mean and bad." standby.

Good job with this one, though. Do you mind crossposting it to minmax / can I do such a thing if you don't have an account?

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

It could be argued that Metapower only decreases the cost of applying Empower once.
The cost of modifying your chosen power with metapsionic feats is reduced by 2 power points (to a minimum extra cost of 0 power points).I'm not entirely solid on that... just playing devil's advocate. Even if that's true, NI Linked Synchronicity still works, but that's an older trick.

[Vaz]

Having a major Deja vu right now. Have you explained this before? Or some thesis on it along the lines of infinite damage etc?

[Chronos]

Having a major Deja vu right now. Have you explained this before? Or some thesis on it along the lines of infinite damage etc?
Because it has to be done in a thread on psionics where someone mentions Deja Vu

[Mato]

You can't for metamagic, but no place in all the psionics rules is there a prohibition on stacking metapsionics. Obviously ones like Quicken and Maximize won't do much good, but Empower is fine.If we accept the lack of rules as rules, then tapping out SOS in morse code on the wall summons a paragon solar that grants you +NI to all your ability scores. Which really takes the flare of, well anything you may find or think of combining now don't it?

Also, this

Benefit: What the feat enables the character (“you” in the feat description) to do. If a character has the same feat more than once, its benefits do not stack unless indicated otherwise in the description. In general, having a feat twice is the same as having it once.Tells us empower's benefit does not stack with it's self, whether you have empower twice or apply the same one twice doesn't alter a thing.

[Rubik]

This is... Damnit, Rubik.

I can't find a hole in this, so I resort to the "Infinite loops are mean and bad." standby.

Good job with this one, though. Do you mind crossposting it to minmax / can I do such a thing if you don't have an account?I don't have an account, no. So long as you link back to this topic, go ahead.


If we accept the lack of rules as rules, then tapping out SOS in morse code on the wall summons a paragon solar that grants you +NI to all your ability scores. Which really takes the flare of, well anything you may find or think of combining now don't it?The rules allow for any metapsionic that apply to apply, and there's nothing stopping one from applying Empower Power twice anywhere in the rules, psionic or otherwise. The fact that they left out the portion of the primary rules on metamagic for metapsionics indicates that the author didn't feel that applying a metapsionic feat twice would be problematic.


Also, this
Tells us empower's benefit does not stack with it's self, whether you have empower twice or apply the same one twice doesn't alter a thing.That's the text for Empower Spell. What does that have to do with Empower Power? That text is explicitly not in the metapsionic feat's description, so wouldn't that indicate that it's not a restriction, since it's not mentioned, when the text on stacking metapsionics more than once isn't mentioned either?

If you're going to start pulling in from irrelevant sources, how about metabreath feats? You can apply multiples on those just fine, as it's actually mentioned in the text. So if metamagic explicitly forbids it and metabreath feats explicitly allow it, and there's nothing in metapsionics that even hints that it's forbidden, but the text does hint that you can apply any metapsionic feat you can afford the pp and focus cost for, so long as it's not expressly disallowed (generally because the feat itself says it doesn't apply), then it seems reasonable to allow metapsionics stacking.

The fact that the ardent ACF is busted is another matter altogether.

[Big Fau]

The rules allow for any metapsionic that apply to apply, and there's nothing stopping one from applying Empower Power twice anywhere in the rules, psionic or otherwise. The fact that they left out the portion of the primary rules on metamagic for metapsionics indicates that the author didn't feel that applying a metapsionic feat twice would be problematic.

They don't need it: You need to expend your Psionic Focus once per instance of Empower Power you want to apply to Awaken, and there's never been a way to generate infinite Psionic Foci pre-Epic.

Also, even with Psionic Contingency you can't affect yourself with Awaken at all due to a clause in Metamorphosis:


You can manifest a power if you make a Concentration check (DC 20 + power level); however, doing so ends the duration of this power.

And the triggering clause in Psionic Contingency:


In all cases, the psionic contingency immediately brings into effect the companion power, the latter being “manifested” instantaneously only when the prescribed circumstances occur.

Upon Psionic Contingency being triggered, Awaken manifests and immediately ends Metamorphosis. You are no longer a tree when Awaken tries to affect you, and the power fails.

[bekeleven]

Also, I do find it funny that this trick requires a DM OKing a custom mantle power list.

[Big Fau]

Addendum to my earlier post: I forgot that dominant ideal allows you to
use metapsionics without expending your focus.


Also, I do find it funny that this trick requires a DM OKing a custom mantle power list.

It also requires the DM to allow you to add powers from a StP Erudite's list of converted spells. Psionic powers aren't like Divine spells; creating a new one doesn't allow others to learn it unless they follow the rules for learning a power from another manifester, and the rules for substituting powers on a mantle are not very clear on when you're able to substitute them.

Regardless, the trick still doesn't work due to the clause in Metamorphosis about changing back when you manifest a power.

[Fax Celestis]

Bonus lulz, do it to your manifesting stat first for free PP.

[Icewraith]

They don't need it: You need to expend your Psionic Focus once per instance of Empower Power you want to apply to Awaken, and there's never been a way to generate infinite Psionic Foci pre-Epic.

Also, even with Psionic Contingency you can't affect yourself with Awaken at all due to a clause in Metamorphosis:



And the triggering clause in Psionic Contingency:



Upon Psionic Contingency being triggered, Awaken manifests and immediately ends Metamorphosis. You are no longer a tree when Awaken tries to affect you, and the power fails.

The quotes on "Manifested" make that argument kind of dubious. Technically the psionic contingency is manifesting the power, not the original manifester. You wouldn't argue that a normal spellcaster is actually casting a spell when their contingency goes off, a spell they already cast is simply coming into effect. Once it's in the contingency the original caster can't force the contingency to activate unless it's off a condition like a trigger word or action.

Or are you arguing that a manifester in metamorphosis needs to make a dc 20 + power level concentration check to have their psionic contingency go off at all? You can't apply the second half of that sentance unless the first half applies.

[lord_khaine]

As it has allready been pointed out a couple of times, then this wont work due to it not being specifically mentioned that empower stack with empower.

[Gotterdammerung]

I don't agree with your assessment of the rules for stacking a metapsionic feat , but instead of arguing with you for pages dancing in circles over our different interpretations of what is NOT said, I would like to ask why you wouldn't just use fortify power? It is a metapsionic feat that explicitly says it can be applied to a spell multiple times. It works for your combo exactly the same, but is unquestionably legal. Why choose the dubious option to facilitate your trick?


Also, I am sorry for my sloppy words earlier. I know about Mantle swapping and spell to power . I was trying to say I did not remember a nature Mantle of the top of my head. That there might not be an appropriate Mantle to swap awaken onto. But if you say there is a nature Mantle then nevermind. You would still need to meet a spell to power erudite and learn the power from him before you could swap awaken on your Mantle though.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Also, even with Psionic Contingency you can't affect yourself with Awaken at all due to a clause in Metamorphosis:

You can manifest a power if you make a Concentration check (DC 20 + power level); however, doing so ends the duration of this power.

Fission to the rescue?

[Zaq]

Hmmm. You know what, with just Metapower and Empower Power (wow, that sounds weird), you could make this happen in item form without getting the GM-controlled mantle-substitution bit involved. You can make power stones with metapsionics applied, but there's no mention of expending psionic focus in the process of making such a stone, nor is there a mention of actually manifesting the power in question as you make the stone (so you can make stones that, for example, would require more psionic focuses than you have). Even if you need to spend one focus per instance of Empower, the rules explicitly say you can have multiple people working on creating a stone, so you can bypass it that way.

So you just get an Erudite with Awaken, Metapower, and Empower Power to make a stone with as many instances of Empower as you like, and there you have it.

The tricky part is getting Awaken as an arcane spell. Is there an easy way to do that, or does that rely on spell research?

[Rubik]

The tricky part is getting Awaken as an arcane spell. Is there an easy way to do that, or does that rely on spell research?You can learn cleric spells from a rainbow servant or a domain wizard, or learn druid spells from a dragon with the Child of Eberron sovereign archetype.

[Doc_Maynot]

You can learn cleric spells from a rainbow servant or a domain wizard, or learn druid spells from a dragon with the Child of Eberron sovereign archetype.

The issue with learning cleric spells from a rainbow servant is that the class states, "A 10th-level rainbow servant can learn and cast spells from the cleric list, even if they don’t appear on the lists of any spellcasting class he has. Such spells are cast as divine spells if they don’t appear on the sorcerer/wizard or bard spell lists. This class feature grants access to the spells, but not extra spells per day. The 10th-level rainbow servant can likewise read scrolls with cleric spells on them and use wands and staffs that contain cleric spells."

[Rubik]

The issue with learning cleric spells from a rainbow servant is that the class states, "A 10th-level rainbow servant can learn and cast spells from the cleric list, even if they don’t appear on the lists of any spellcasting class he has. Such spells are cast as divine spells if they don’t appear on the sorcerer/wizard or bard spell lists. This class feature grants access to the spells, but not extra spells per day. The 10th-level rainbow servant can likewise read scrolls with cleric spells on them and use wands and staffs that contain cleric spells."There are several ways to bypass this, such as with the Southern Magician feat. Also, many dragons cast cleric spells as arcane spells.