Place your bets for the big fight.

[Charity]

OK you should all be aware of the core class battle that is getting underway over here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28962)

Here's where you can bet on your fav... well vote for them, they won't let me take your money.

After it gets underway if anyone wants to post match reports feel free.

[Telonius]

I always bet on the underdog.:smallbiggrin:

[Were-Sandwich]

I want the fighter to win, but my moneys on thw Wizard

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Just posting to provide an easy link to the rules if you do not want to go through the whole thread.

I will also provide a link to this one in my sig.

[YPU]

I had an arena fight like this a few weeks ago and the cavalry type paladin owned big time.

[clericwithnogod]

I'm voting on the bard. I figure he has the event rigged through judicious social skill use on the referee.

[Golthur]

In my heart of hearts, I want either the Fighter or the Rogue to win, but I know it just won't be so.

Had to vote Druid.

[pestilenceawaits]

Cleric all the way spells, heals, melee the guy has it all.

[Yuki Akuma]

My money's on the wizard.

Assuming it's a Batman wizard and not a glass cannon.

[Suzaku]

Cleric all the way spells, heals, melee the guy has it all.
So does Druid

[pestilenceawaits]

So does Druid

But I think the spontaneous healing is going to be the trick that saves the day.:smallsmile:

[Callos_DeTerran]

Call me crazy but I actually went with Monk. Enough stealth to hide out of the main fight and with good enough saves to make it past the odd spell thrown his/her way until the fewest possible contestants are left and all the big bad spells are cast? Count me in.

[Maclav]

I had an arena fight like this a few weeks ago and the cavalry type paladin owned big time.

What, was no one flying? Did they start within charge range with no obstructions?

[Maclav]

Call me crazy but I actually went with Monk. Enough stealth to hide out of the main fight and with good enough saves to make it past the odd spell thrown his/her way until the fewest possible contestants are left and all the big bad spells are cast? Count me in.

They aren't fighting a battle royal. Its paired matchings. Everyone fights everyone ion a duel.

[Orzel]

Ranger
Stealth + Detection + Full BAB + Animal companion = Surpise round

Rangers were made for 1 vs 1 combat.

[AaronH]

If it was a battle royal, I would go with one of the fighter types, but since it is one on one, I will say druid. Though, it all depends on the players, as a person who knows how to use his character will usually win over one who does not. The arena will have an effect, and then you have to consider the initial pairings. I could easily see the fighter winning this thing, if the guy who chose fighter gets a good start, has a good build, and if he knows what he is doing, same goes for just about every character. Of course, the round robin will help even prevent the "luck" win.

The only class I would be skeptical about is the bard, it just isn't a solo class, but again, under the right conditions, I could see it winning.

[Jade_Tarem]

Well, this is ironic, but I voted for Cleric. Despite our banter in the CCB thread I just think he's got the best odds. Wild Shape really shouldn't beat out his domain powers and spontaneious heal. I'm worried about getting wasted in round one, whereas he has armor and hp at the start. There are far too few hour per level spells below level 6 in my opinion. :P

In my heart of hearts, I want the bard to win, just because I have long campaigned against the "bards suck" mentality. Plus, I saw one take out a monk in a lvl 7 duel once.

[Weezer]

It seems I am echoing a common idea, that I hope the fighter or rogue will win but I think that the cleric will win out.

[Dr. Weasel]

Like so many others, I am rooting for the rogue. He might have a chance with his rogue-y-ness, but all the other players will probably invest in sense motive just to foil him.

[Zincorium]

I'm gonna have to go wizard, with cleric as a possible close second, if the wizard is played right. Jade_tarem, all I can say is you have a wealth of information on how to do this without a worry, and while I don't know you, your choice of class speaks volumes.

[Charity]

No suprises here Wiz/Clc/Drd -WCD for the win (Weapons of Cheesey Destruction).

[Scalenex]

Sounds like fun, but I can't picture a fair and balanced way of doing this.

If it's a free-for-all the first person to attack will be killed regardless of who it is (unless it's a really sneaky feint). I can imagine a free-for-all would be a lot like playing Risk with my friends. Whoever seems to be the most powerful will get attacked by everyone then die. Somehow during that, two people will get a blood feud (I don't care if I win, I just want you to lose) taking each other out. they'll be a lot of stand-offishness where the active people get gang beat by the survivors until there are only two people left, probably the two most subtle making Rogue and Bard likely choices though the Rogue could have died early after pulling off a spectacular Sneak attack which scared the others into eliminating the x-factor. Barbarian would be the 50-to-1 shot because a massive free-for-all like this would require staying power and his rage would probably be spent before the battle is over.

If it's an elimination tournament with one-on-one action, the rogue is really in trouble. The wizards and sorcerer could probably beat most other opponents but the monk would own them. Everyone would have to fight everyone and then you tally up the score. Also the terrain and distance between combatants has a huge bearing on who has the advantage. I can't imagine a rogue beating any other class on an open field. Perhaps instead of having them all fight each other, we should run an olympic style event. Events:

-Big Monster slaying (I favor Paladin)
-Hoarde of small monster fighting (I favor Monk)
-Dungeon triatholon race (Rogue)
-Non-lethal bar-room brawl (Barbarian)
-Prison break out (Rogue)
-Town-guard evading (Wizard)

yet again the nature of these conflicts would determine which class is favored but at least it could showcase the strengths and weaknesses of each class. If the classes were balanced how they were supposed to, Bards would get lots of bronze medals.

If you want, I'd be willing to come up with some Olympic events but I'd prefer a bit lower levels.

[Parlik]

Well given the fact that they have time to prepare, the wizard should just use 'Contact other plane' a couple of times a year in advance, and presto you now have info on all the other ones involved.

What I would do at least, and then select spells and items based on this info.

[Rigeld2]

Well, this is ironic, but I voted for Cleric. Despite our banter in the CCB thread I just think he's got the best odds. Wild Shape really shouldn't beat out his domain powers and spontaneious heal. I'm worried about getting wasted in round one, whereas he has armor and hp at the start. There are far too few hour per level spells below level 6 in my opinion. :P

There are far too few on both spell lists Jade :p

It will definitely be interesting.

[AaronH]

You know, I think a well built paladin could really mop up, especially with the change they made for the tournament to smite evil..... Of course, it is core, and it all depends on how the character is built, and how well the player uses the terrain, can't wait to see how this comes out!

[Viscount Einstrauss]

Go rogue! All he needs to do is wait until the "winning" mage has finished everyone else and expended their best spells, then steal all their toys and sneak attack for the win!

[Maclav]

Go rogue! All he needs to do is wait until the "winning" mage has finished everyone else and expended their best spells, then steal all their toys and sneak attack for the win!

Again, this is NOT a battle royal. This is a number of one on one duels.

I don't personally see how a paladin has a chance. They are not going to be able to land a charge and likely will not even get into melee range of most casters.

[Rigeld2]

Just so everyone knows... my build isnt a standard cleric build. I'm gonna have some fun playing :) so I dont even know how well I'm going to place. Although, I do know I'm going to beat Jade. Just because.

[AaronH]

I don't personally see how a paladin has a chance. They are not going to be able to land a charge and likely will not even get into melee range of most casters.

There are a number of ways they could get into range. Also, assuming they have their mount, since they can smite anything, one good charge could potentially take out our d4 buddies. Why don't you think they will be able to charge? I think ultimately, the noncasters will want to run a delaying action, trying to outlast or outrun the casters spells, at 10th level casters have an impressive resivoir, but still lack some of their most powerful spells. Unfortunately because these are all straight classes with only core material, the paladin will be kinda hurting, even with their Cha to saves. Like I keep saying, it will all come down to how each player plays it, how they build there characters, and a little bit of chance.

[Maclav]

There are a number of ways they could get into range. Also, assuming they have their mount, since they can smite anything, one good charge could potentially take out our d4 buddies. Why don't you think they will be able to charge?

How exactly does a horse fly in core? :)

I guess you could spend some time feeding it a potion, but thats a lot of time wasted. Not to mention dispell bait.

[Marius]

Just so everyone knows... my build isnt a standard cleric build. I'm gonna have some fun playing :) so I dont even know how well I'm going to place. Although, I do know I'm going to beat Jade. Just because.

Errr can I change my vote then? :smalltongue:

[Orzel]

I don't get why everyone is voting for full casters. The Rogue-like classes will stab them up the second they pass something that provides cover. then SA, Flurry, Full BAB, or whatever bards do.

What are they going to do? Fly the whole match?

[Maclav]

What are they going to do? Fly the whole match?

Uhh.. yeah.

The only problem with the sneaking people is that the fight is just going to turn into a standoff. Most classes don't have a reasonable way of detecting but can easily avoid them or mitigate the effects. True Seeing is good, but without max ranks in spot I foresee some very long, boring fights.

[silvermesh]

How exactly does a horse fly in core? :)

I guess you could spend some time feeding it a potion, but thats a lot of time wasted. Not to mention dispell bait.

I'm pretty sure the DMG has level equivilent paladin mounts. willing to bet a pegasus or hippogriff isn't horribly high up on the list. dunno, can't find it in the SRD, and I don't have my books at my place any more. If the tourney had a higher cash allowance, he could buy his mount Wings of Flying.

as far as magical effects being dispel bait, I'd say the mage is more dispel bait than anything the paladin has ;)

[Maclav]

I'm pretty sure the DMG has level equivilent paladin mounts. willing to bet a pegasus or hippogriff isn't horribly high up on the list. dunno, can't find it in the SRD, and I don't have my books at my place any more. If the tourney had a higher cash allowance, he could buy his mount Wings of Flying.

as far as magical effects being dispel bait, I'd say the mage is more dispel bait than anything the paladin has ;)

54,000 gp is a LOT of cash for a lvl 11. I believe the alternative mounts are an optional rule and thus, not core.

There is a big difference between the mage's spells and the potions a fighter/paladin/etc are going to have to consume. Well, the potion has a DC of 12, 14 or 16. Not all that hard to make with a caster level +10 check. The wizards buffs have a DC of 23 or so and the paladin gets one dispell assuming he blew a whole mess of points on an 16 wis and still only has 1/2 caster level.

[silvermesh]

Uhh.. yeah.

The only problem with the sneaking people is that the fight is just going to turn into a standoff. Most classes don't have a reasonable way of detecting but can easily avoid them or mitigate the effects. True Seeing is good, but without max ranks in spot I foresee some very long, boring fights.

if I were the rogue, flight wouldn't save you from my poisoned arrows ;)

and as far as I know, the dungeon masters guide is core. I don't think the advanced paladin mounts even says "optional rule" around it. Thats really the DMs fiat, though, not yours. I'm just pointing out that every class has their options for sneakiness. don't go thinking that one class is going to win based on how people normally play that class, in tourneys, people tend to do really odd stuff.

[Maclav]

if I were the rogue, flight wouldn't save you from my poisoned arrows ;)

No, but any of a multitude of low level spells would. And since you so kindly reviled your self, game on.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Alternative mounts are available, but whether they are being used is an entirely different matter .

[Orzel]

Rogue-like flights will be very short if the player wishes it to be. Max Hide, High Dex, very cheap Hide equipment, and Sniping rules give them free hits that flying arcanists can't afford nor prevent for an hour. Of course this won't work on ground base warrior classes. This makes this contest into a warped rock paper scissors match.

[silvermesh]

throw enough double-poisoned darts(dipped in CON killing Poison, spell storing with Poison spell) at a fighter and he's bound to fub up a roll or two, and every fail makes the next poison more likely to succeed. keep quick on your feet and this fight should be easy. I'd be more worried about the monk and ranger taking out the rogue than anyone else. Also, the friendly cleric with his ability to cure poison... thats just annoying :smallbiggrin:

of course now that i really think on it, the bard might actually make a better poison junkie than the rogue...
man I wish I had the time to enter these contests..

[Maclav]

Also, the friendly cleric with his ability to cure poison... thats just annoying :smallbiggrin:

of course now that i really think on it, the bard might actually make a better poison junkie than the rogue...
man I wish I had the time to enter these contests..


Cure? You mean be completely immune for the duration of the fight at the cost of a lvl 2 spell slot... right? :)

Oh wait, they make a potion of that, don't they, for the low, low price of 300gp.

[SpiderBrigade]

How on earth does the rogue get ranged attacks that a wizard "can't prevent?" Let alone "free hits?"

[geez3r]

I voted for barbarian, just because I always play them, and I want them to win. That and it had the least votes.

[Jade_Tarem]

I'm gonna have to go wizard, with cleric as a possible close second, if the wizard is played right. Jade_tarem, all I can say is you have a wealth of information on how to do this without a worry, and while I don't know you, your choice of class speaks volumes.

My first choice was bard, Leush beat me to it. :smalltongue:


No suprises here Wiz/Clc/Drd -WCD for the win (Weapons of Cheesey Destruction).

Hey! I resent that! The title is Weapons of Mass Cheesey Destruction.


Again, this is NOT a battle royal. This is a number of one on one duels.

Although there was talk of a battle royale at the end just for kicks. Even so, I'm pretty sure that the characters would start far enough away that there wouldn't be this "everyone's gonna gank the X in the first round" scenario.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

In most fights where I'm a rogue, my first order of business is disarming my opponent (hide/move silently/sleight of hand. Sure, a wizard could just fly and not be subjected to this. But why would he be flying if he doesn't know you're coming :D). Second is laying a clever trap. Third is springing the trap and taking them down quickly with minimal possible retaliation.

[Zincorium]

In most fights where I'm a rogue, my first order of business is disarming my opponent (hide/move silently/sleight of hand. Sure, a wizard could just fly and not be subjected to this. But why would he be flying if he doesn't know you're coming :D). Second is laying a clever trap. Third is springing the trap and taking them down quickly with minimal possible retaliation.

Previously prepared spells will be in effect, and the wizard will be flying regardless. Second, laying a trap takes time which you will not have, since it can't really be prepared before the fight starts unless you have access to the arena.

Oh, and Locate Creature. 4th level spell, but considering that at least 3 (rogue, ranger, monk) of the combatants will be adept at sneaking around, it's a good investment. No saving throw, and all you need is to be aware of the critter in question. Knowing the rogue is a halfling is all you really need to figure out exactly where they are, and then AoE spells to the wizard's hearts content. Hope you picked improved evasion for your single special ability.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

Not that kind of trap. Well, sometimes. But not in this case :P

[darthpower]

20 quatloos on the Cleric

[Teloric]

The Wizard has my vote. Good choice of avatar too...

[silvermesh]

How on earth does the rogue get ranged attacks that a wizard "can't prevent?" Let alone "free hits?"
pretty easily.

dispel is an easy spell for a rogue to use. one dispel knocks out multiple low level self-buffs. you can keep rebuffing, but you've got to cast several spells to recover what one dispel has done to you. The more resources you spend on being able to constantly rebuff yourself, the less resources you have spent on.. oh I dunno... actually being able to defeat your opponent. relying on magical buffs will get you far against the fighter, not the rogue.

people can sit and talk about how casters are unstoppable, but there is a way to combat every tactic, especially buff stacking. the more buffs you have on, the more buffs dispel will strip when it targets you. potions? minimum DC possible? hehe. you're going to need higher level spells than wind wall and protection from arrows if you want to be even a little bit safe from a rogues arrow. hell, wind wall isn't useful at all unless you know when and where the fight is going to happen.

you go ahead and tell me your tactic for a level 10 wizard who is flying around an arena looking for a rogue, and I'll see if I can come up with a roguely solution for you. Cat and mouse is a fun game, especially when it's hard to decide who the cat is.

[Rigeld2]

pretty easily.

dispel is an easy spell for a rogue to use. one dispel knocks out multiple low level self-buffs.
DC to successfully dispel a level 10 wizards buffs is 21. You would need to UMD a DC 30 check to get a 10 caster level Dispel Magic scroll.

Ranks: 13
Feats: 5
Synergy: 4
Stat: 4

So you have a 85% chance to make the UMD check, and then a 50% chance per buff. I wouldnt say thats "pretty easily". Thats possible, but I wouldnt be surprised if you failed to succeed at any of the rolls.

[Leush]

On that note, when *are* we starting?

[Jade_Tarem]

you go ahead and tell me your tactic for a level 10 wizard who is flying around an arena looking for a rogue, and I'll see if I can come up with a roguely solution for you. Cat and mouse is a fun game, especially when it's hard to decide who the cat is.

One of the tactics is to outsmart the wizard, is it not? To that I say: nice try. I have a plan for the rogue, but I'm not going to say any more than that the tactics you outline are what will make it possible for a wizard to find you.

Spellcasting is generally the cat. Not, as you point out, always. But usually. I'm more interested in seeing rogue vs. ranger.

To answer earlier questions:

I think there are 4 characters that don't, technically, exist yet. Silvanos and Stickman are collecting votes for maps. It's a darn shame Katonta's map isn't on there anymore... I kinda liked it. We'll start soon enough, I guess.

A bard will not be able to bring a "new pet" to the next fight. Player X/Map X resets before each duel, otherwise Katonta and I could really screw with some people with permanency.

Silvanos: Ok Leush, you see Draz 74 start nocking arrows, what do you do?
Leush: I cast expeditious retreat and run for cover.
Silvanos: You make it halfway before slamming into an invisible barrier, placed there by Jade_Tarem 6 fights ago!
Leush: Um, what?
Silvanos: You start bleeding freely from the nose; a magic mouth appears and recites its grim message: "Whoooboobooboobubububbub nyuk nyuk nyuk..."

[Charity]

Three horse race this one, though the Bard is the best of the rest so whaddya know shorter odds on the bard than any of the non casters... *roll's eyes* bunch of Elan fanboys.

[Jade_Tarem]

Not nescessarily - the bard has a good shot at taking down any character that fails an initial will save. It's much the same as a wizard loaded with save-or-lose enchantments.

[Zincorium]

Not nescessarily - the bard has a good shot at taking down any character that fails an initial will save. It's much the same as a wizard loaded with save-or-lose enchantments.

Except for one key detail: Since the spell level of the wizard's save-or-die/be screwed spells are higher, the DC is going to be tougher. Thus, a charm based wizard still has an edge.

[Armads]

i'm rooting for the druid
so far, in my group's PvP fights, the druid has always been able to take down at least one other enemy before getting ganged up and killed:smallbiggrin:

[Druid]

I voted for me.

[NecroPaladin]

Barbarian. Any hit die is reduced to a fine powder under the wrath of "thog power attack for +342 damage!" I just hope the Barb player buys himself decent enough magical equipment to fend off spells.

[Jade_Tarem]

Except for one key detail: Since the spell level of the wizard's save-or-die/be screwed spells are higher, the DC is going to be tougher. Thus, a charm based wizard still has an edge.

You couldn't be more correct. However, my point was that the bard still has an edge on those who just have to take it and make the save, so the bard's "best of the non-primary casters" status is kinda justified. I saw a bard take a well-built monk that way, and the monk has excellent saves. There's no reason it can't be reproduced. It just comes down to the save roll...

[Katonta]

At least some people have faith in my sorcerer. A "cage match" would be very fun. I just hope I'll do well. I miss my map too Jade.

Edit: Wow, these were little random sentences that were hardly connected. My mistake.

[Charity]

How do I edit this Darn poll to include Katonta's sorcerer? anyone know?

Oh and K, less votes than the Bard, thats gotta smart.

[Zincorium]

How do I edit this Darn poll to include Katonta's sorcerer? anyone know?

Oh and K, less votes than the Bard, thats gotta smart.

I think that the general thought is that if the wizard, who can specialize for this event to a very high degree and can get more use out of metamagic, is unable to win, then the sorceror with the same grasp and experience of tactics will inevitably fail, if only due to being bound a lot tighter as far as options.

[Charity]

Now I need to edit it with Raool as the Barb, anybody have the first clue how?
How many rounds do you guys think the average bout will take?
I'm reckoning no more than 4 rounds, unless theres a rogue.

[Katonta]

I think that the general thought is that if the wizard, who can specialize for this event to a very high degree and can get more use out of metamagic, is unable to win, then the sorceror with the same grasp and experience of tactics will inevitably fail, if only due to being bound a lot tighter as far as options.
But if the wizard doesn't win against a character because he ran out of spells, then I have a good chance at winning against that character. Besides, if I run out of spells, all I have to do is try to hide and move silently until the next day when I will have all my spells back and I will be able to make a come back. The wizard has to sleep for 8 hours and then prepare all of his spels that he wants for that day. So, all in all, the Sorcerer is much more versatle character and is destined to win where the Wizard fails.
@charity: It smarts, but not a whole bunch.

[Hurlbut]

Look like the Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, and Rogue are the underdogs.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

... Besides, if I run out of spells, all I have to do is try to hide and move silently until the next day when I will have all my spells back and I will be able to make a come back. The wizard has to sleep for 8 hours and then prepare all of his spels that he wants for that day. ...

Sorcerers (and Bards) also needs rest :smalltongue:


Daily Readying of Spells: Each day, sorcerers and bards must focus their minds on the task of casting their spells. A sorcerer or bard needs 8 hours of rest (just like a wizard), after which he spends 15 minutes concentrating. (A bard must sing, recite, or play an instrument of some kind while concentrating.) During this period, the sorcerer or bard readies his mind to cast his daily allotment of spells. Without such a period to refresh himself, the character does not regain the spell slots he used up the day before.

[Raool]

Hah ! I am no longer the one with the least votes !

[Quietus]

I refuse to vote here, due to being biased (since I'm working on writing these things into a cohesive story-form; Taking longer than expected due to a minor world explosion). I will say this - what I've seen so far has been interesting. It'll be hard to pick a winner.

[RowlieBowlie]

The druid is probably most attuned in a PvP match,

He can change into an animal to deal damage and still cast spells to heal himself. or summon creatures to his aid as meatshields

The only on to stand a change to him is the purely melee fighter or barbarian.
A paladin without his smite evil option is not really gonna win it from this guy.
A wizard has to do proper preperation in advance. the rogue is a possible winner to, but only when playing really nifty. Ranger stands some change when using ranged weapons and dualwielding. the monk is a sure loss. The bard??? give me a brake, he's a support character.

SOOO GOOO Druid

[Saithis Bladewing]

As nasty as a Wizard can be, I think that at this level the Druid might just be tougher...I love the wizard, but I'm putting my bets on Druid.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

.
A paladin without his smite evil option is not really gonna win it from this guy.


The Paladin has been granted the SMITE opponent ability, so it will work even against Roy

[carlknoch]

Did this event ever finish? I don't see the final results.

[mostlyharmful]

Druid.. Expendable, buffed meat shield, Buffed Bear form and still full casting???. Yeah, ok, if anouther PC particularly a caster is run well they can get their tail kicked but there's still the wonderful "My Hippiness will beat you!!" bless'em:smallconfused:

[Charity]

Ah Silvanos's grand folly... nah it hasn't finished... it might still be vaguely running in the background somewhere, I think some wag worked out at the rate (back then, god only knows now) it was being resolved it would take about ten years or some such.
I'm disapointed that I never got to see Rigelds crazy cleric build though... any chance of a pm with the details oh tyranty one?
I'll get you some more optrex.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Ah Silvanos's grand folly...

Not that far from the truth. :smallsigh:


I'm disapointed that I never got to see Rigelds crazy cleric build though... any chance of a pm with the details oh tyranty one?


I think PinkysBrain take the popcorn with respect to crazy builds (Batman is a fighter), but Rigelds certainly had merit as a runner up.

Drop me a PM or email with your email and I will send it.


I'll get you some more optrex.


:smallcool:

[shadowdemon_lord]

Batman is a fighter? could you PM me this build? I'm just curious how that's even technically possible.

[Inyssius Tor]

Seriously, what happened here? I think I'd like to make a chart of all the players and the last time any of them were seen alive.

...unless you already have a chart like that.

If you don't, is there any info you have that isn't posted anywhere? I'd like to see this thing through to completion in less than the last conservative estimate (ten years). I might be able to fill a DM spot, since obviously at least one of them has been savagely mauled by real life or ennui.

[Talic]

I vote rogue. Everyone's gonna gang up on the wizard, cleric, and druid. Including the wizard, cleric, and druid. After full casters are gone, then the rest will duke it out. Rogue has to win, it just has to!

Heh.

[EldritchKnight2]

The spellcasters will do well up to the point that a melee character walks up to them.

The Paladin has alot of class abilities that should make them both a melee tank & a melee destroyer.