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View Full Version : Is it just me or do Core cleric feats kinda suck..



daggaz
2007-01-31, 08:19 AM
As a few of you know, I am making a melee cleric for a core-only game we are (hopefully) starting soon. Starting at level one.

So far, I'm kinda disappointed with the feats available for my character, especially in the interests of bettering my melee actions. And as there is no divine metamagic in this game, most of the metamagic feats seem a little lackluster to me. (I will take extend spell, and quicken but that won't even be usable for quite a few levels.)

But yeah...melee... hrm... Theres always dodge. One ac vs one opponent. Its ok, I suppose.. could head towards springattack which would be nice BUT you can't spring attack in full plate so meh, whats the point? Whirlwind is fun (and I think doable in fullplate) but its rather feat intensive. And the trip route is also not gonna happen, as I wield a greataxe and it just wouldnt be the right fluff to be a battlefield controller instead of a splitter of heads.

I will be getting weapon focus from my war domain, too bad the rest of that tree is fighter only. Tossing those bonuses on would have been fine by me... I wonder if my DM will allow me to take them at the appropriate levels considering my character is so combat orientated.

Then there's powerattack, which as far as I have read on these forums isn't all that its cracked up to be, leading to cleave and great cleave (more feats that are ok at low levels but quickly become pointless).

So erm...what would YOU do to improve melee-ness? Remember its core-only, no divine metacheese. (I have to take extra turning just to GET turn chances, my charisma is five.) Im also considering the craft wand feat, just to bolster up the healage...

Rigeld2
2007-01-31, 08:25 AM
Then there's powerattack, which as far as I have read on these forums isn't all that its cracked up to be
Buh?!

Power Attack ownz. Its like leet yo. 133754u53 and a bag of ch1ps.
(ouch that hurt)
I'd think about Power Attack and look at Improved Sunder... the latter is up to you.

Yuki Akuma
2007-01-31, 08:28 AM
Power Attack not all it's cracked up to be?

...What are you talking about? Power Attack is a good feat. Certainly better than, say, Weapon Focus. Which sucks. Taking a domain just for proficiency and Weapon Focus isn't a good idea.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-31, 08:28 AM
Um, Power Attack is the gold standard of melee. It is a must have. Whirlwind is crap. Improved Trip would be worth the feats if you didn't object to it.

Metamagic is good. Quicken Spell is a must for buffing; take it at level 9 (i.e., as soon as you can use it). Improved Initiative is good if you have nothing else to do. Cleave remains viable for a pretty long time in a core game. Craft Wondrous Item is good. Blind-Fight is convenient for core melee types.

For your first level feat, try Improved Initiative; add something like Iron Will if human for a truly great will save. Take Power Attack at 3, Cleave at 6. Alternatively, take Power Attack and Cleave now; you'll be able to use PA next level.

Merlin the Tuna
2007-01-31, 08:36 AM
Taking a domain just for proficiency and Weapon Focus isn't a good idea.It ain't bad for Clerics of Kord. Everyone loves great swords. Magic Vestment and Divine Power as Domain Spells isn't too shabby, either.

daggaz
2007-01-31, 08:38 AM
Hmm ok, I must have misread (or scrambled my memory) those posts on powerattack. Thought I heard a lot of people saying it was basically just good for the various trees. Oh and the War domain is mostly for fluff (tho I do snag the use of and focus with the greataxe).

All right then, thanks for the advice guys, will look into it.


(PS would you bother with extra turning? I feel kinda gimped that I cant even use a class ability due to a 5 in charisma. With this feet I go from 3 - 3 + 4 = 4 turning attempts... And if I hit five ranks in Knowledge(religion) I can bring my effective charisma score for turning checks up to -1 instead of -3..

I do have the possibility of taking 7 on int and 12 on charisma... but like i said no divine metamagic so having lots of turns isnt that important, whereas skills are kinda nice (imo). Or I could just dump both charisma and int and keep a +2 for my dex bonus.. feh. Too many choices.

Saph
2007-01-31, 08:51 AM
War domain is worth taking. Getting a nice weapon proficiency and +1 to attack is good if you're going to be attacking a lot.

As for the rest, yeah, what they said. Power Attack and Cleave are both great with a 2-handed weapon. And if you're taking some metamagic/item creation feats as well, that probably uses up all your feat slots already.

- Saph

Ikkitosen
2007-01-31, 08:53 AM
Extend Spell, Power Attack. Long buffs and hard hits. What more do you want?

Yuki Akuma
2007-01-31, 08:54 AM
War domain is worth taking. Getting a nice weapon proficiency and +1 to attack is good if you're going to be attacking a lot.

As for the rest, yeah, what they said. Power Attack and Cleave are both great with a 2-handed weapon. And if you're taking some metamagic/item creation feats as well, that probably uses up all your feat slots already.

- Saph

The weapon proficiency doesn't matter, as a morningstar will do you just fine, especially if you're going to be pumping up your damage with Power Attack. You can wield a morningstar in two hands for the PA 1:2 bonus, or you can wield it in one hand to use a shield or something.

+1 to attack may seem nice at first level, but eventually you're going to wish you'd just taken a better domain...

Ikkitosen
2007-01-31, 08:58 AM
I like War - it's flavoursome, and contains some good spells.

Plus many martials weapons are much cooler than a morningstar.

daggaz
2007-01-31, 09:00 AM
Like I said Yuki, war domain is mostly for fluff/character concept. But I also get martial proficiency_greataxe as well, so I am pretty happy for that as well. And as I dont get to persist any spells, I am also very happy for the extra slot for divine favor.

Saph
2007-01-31, 09:01 AM
The weapon proficiency doesn't matter, as a morningstar will do you just fine, especially if you're going to be pumping up your damage with Power Attack. You can wield a morningstar in two hands for the PA 1:2 bonus, or you can wield it in one hand to use a shield or something.

+1 to attack may seem nice at first level, but eventually you're going to wish you'd just taken a better domain...

Well, there are lots of nice domains, but he did say he wanted a melee cleric.

And I think the War domain is pretty good. The poster is using it to get greataxe proficiency. Compare that to your 2-handed morningstar cleric: he's doing 1d12 damage instead of 1d8, he has a +1 to hit, and he crits for x3 instead of x2. Seems worth it to me, especially if you're going to be hitting things a lot.

- Saph

Yuki Akuma
2007-01-31, 09:03 AM
I like War - it's flavoursome, and contains some good spells.

Plus many martials weapons are much cooler than a morningstar.

Hm, let's see...

Morningstars deal 1d8 damage (quite good), that is both blugeoning and piercing (which is better than the longsword's slashing), and has a critical threat range of 1 and a multiplier of 2 (which is worse than the longsword).

You know, I'd say they're about the same.

And greatswords are better than greataxes. :smallwink:

Ikkitosen
2007-01-31, 09:05 AM
Hm, let's see...

Morningstars deal 1d8 damage (quite good), that is both blugeoning and piercing (which is better than the longsword's slashing), and has a critical threat range of 1 and a multiplier of 2 (which is worse than the longsword).

You know, I'd say they're about the same.

I believe you have misunderstood my use of the word "cool". It's what makes all the other meleeists laugh at the cleric with his morningstar, despite the nerd's protestations that "it's just as good as your greatsword". Seriously, winning with a cleric is easy enough. Winning with style is what counts.

Saph
2007-01-31, 09:07 AM
And greatswords are better than greataxes. :smallwink:

Greataxes are better than your pansy morningstars. :P

Just carry a greataxe and a morningstar for backup. Now you have slashing AND bludgeoning AND piercing. Covers your bases pretty well.

- Saph

Yuki Akuma
2007-01-31, 09:08 AM
I believe you have misunderstood my use of the word "cool". It's what makes all the other meleeists laugh at the cleric with his morningstar, despite the nerd's protestations that "it's just as good as your greatsword". Seriously, winning with a cleric is easy enough. Winning with style is what counts.

It's not as good as a greatsword. But then, it's a one-handed weapon. It's about as good as a longsword, also a one-handed weapon.

I fail to see what is so innately un-cool about a spikey ball on a stick compared to a sharpened length of metal.

Ikkitosen
2007-01-31, 09:12 AM
I fail to see what is so innately un-cool about a spikey ball on a stick compared to a sharpened length of metal.

You can play the cleric then :smallcool:

Yuki Akuma
2007-01-31, 09:16 AM
You can play the cleric then :smallcool:

Play the cleric? Sure! I'd love to play the cleric. :smalltongue:

Clerics are fun.

daggaz
2007-01-31, 09:20 AM
I'm a dwarf. I wouldn't touch a longsword for all the gold in the mountains. I would rather throw rocks at em. And its about character. This is a 65% story 35% fighting campaign. I even wrote up my own god, because the DM shared my shock and disbelief that there is NO decent core god of war for the dwarves, nor is there one he could find that wields a great big GIANT axe. There is that Brightaxe guy... but he wields a greatsword (tell me that is a persisted typo).

Also, as a melee cleric, I think any 2hander is gonna own all over your 1hander not just because of the larger dice, but you get the 1.5x multiplier as well. I mean, you can cast with either, you cant use your other hand for anything else, so whats the point of going 1 handed with a melee cleric as long as you can spare the feat/domain for a nice 2hander?

So far on my feat shopping list I have:

Power Attack
Extend Spell
Craft Wonderous Item
Quicken Spell (taken later when useful, 9th or perhaps 12th)

And looking at:

Cleave (if I can fit it in would be nice)
Craft Wand (maybe, depends how many clw wands we end up burning thru)
Improved Initiative (no dex bonus, would be nice to go first sometimes)
Improved Turning (hate to waste an entire class ability)

Ikkitosen
2007-01-31, 09:22 AM
Play the cleric? Sure! I'd love to play the cleric. :smalltongue:

Clerics are fun.

2nd ed. reference, when you were stuck with blunt weapon and no-one wanted to play the cleric. Clerics now are great fun :smallsmile:

Daggaz: Those first 4 choices seem gravy to me.

Saph
2007-01-31, 09:35 AM
I'd take Craft Wondrous Item over Craft Wand. CLW wands are only 750 gp each, which really isn't much. On the other hand, you can use Craft Wondrous Item to make +2 stat-boosting items for 2000 gp and 160 xp each, which is a great deal given how useful they are.

- Saph

Maclav
2007-01-31, 09:37 AM
but you get the 1.5x multiplier as well.



You'll get that with a morningstar wielded with 2 hands. All you loose is a bit of crit range compared to a one handed martial weapon. From the great axe, 2 points of average damage but gain some flexibility. After a couple levels, 2 points of average damage is trivial.

Mind you, having a use for the d12 in your dice bag is gold.

clericwithnogod
2007-01-31, 09:48 AM
In a core only game, I usually end up taking Improved Initiative as one of my feats at first level when I'm a cleric. Mostly because I get use from it immediately and it's not situational - you get it's benefit every encounter, regardless of what you're facing - and there's just not much else that provides much benefit at first level.

I do like grabbing Greatsword proficiency and weapon focus with the war domain too though.

Something to consider is Quick Draw, particularly if you're using a two-handed weapon. Sometimes it's nice to carry a longspear with reach, drop it and still be able to whack things with your sword. It keeps you from coming up with a move action to take to do so (particularly when you get iterative attacks) and the longspear can give you more opportunities to attack with the AOO chance and/or if your party has 3 or more meleers that get in each other's way. It also lets you throw javelins on the opening round of combat or at other times you can't close. Not a road to ultimate power, but it can help give you something to do all the time that doesn't use up your spells.

warmachine
2007-01-31, 09:49 AM
Clerical melee isn't up with the warrior classes but the heavy armour proficiency and d8 HD puts you close. Clerical magic isn't as direct as the arcane but you've still got a bag of tactical tricks, such as Silence, Spiritual Weapon, Daylight and Holy Smite. Better yet, any spells (except domain) that don't look useful can be converted to healing. The cleric class doesn't have raw hitting power but it has endurance and flexibility. The class doesn't need feats. Undead turning is just icing on the cake.

If you want a feat, max out on Concentration, use a light shield rather than heavy and take Combat Casting. Your AC and HP means you can be in the front line and still heal the other warriors (or yourself) or cast tactical spells on the fly as well as plain hitting them.

Maclav
2007-01-31, 09:54 AM
If you want a feat, max out on Concentration, use a light shield rather than heavy and take Combat Casting. Your AC and HP means you can be in the front line and still heal the other warriors (or yourself) or cast tactical spells on the fly as well as plain hitting them.

Skill Focus (Concentration) > Combat Casting

AtomicKitKat
2007-01-31, 09:55 AM
Meh. Morningstars are the shizznit. Depending on which flavour you use, they could be a longer, spikey mace, or the ball on a chain mini-flail version. What's not cool about that? If you can customise it to switch between both styles... :D

NullAshton
2007-01-31, 10:05 AM
What about a cleric with glamored armor to look like priests robes, and a ordinary 'walking stick' that doubles as a quarterstaff?

clericwithnogod
2007-01-31, 10:07 AM
Clerical melee isn't up with the warrior classes

/em waits for the server hang induced by the rush of people jumping on the opportunity to type, "CoDzilla!"

Telonius
2007-01-31, 10:11 AM
Hold on a sec, 5 in Charisma? What are your other ability scores? If you're looking at a 5 there and a 12 in something else, you might be up for a re-roll due to a negative total stat bonus.

daggaz
2007-01-31, 10:45 AM
Ok gonna say it again cuz I heard CodZilla mentioned again.. its CORE only =)
I dont even get persist spell.

I am a dwarf. I am the only tank in the group, except the druid who will have an animal friend and eventual wildshape. We are starting at level one. My god is a homebrew dwarven god of war, domains strength and war, favored weapon greataxe.

I rolled (and must keep) 16 16 15 14 10 7. I went over all the different possibilites on this one and so far I favor
Str 16
Dex 10
Con 15 +2
Int 14
Wis 16
Cha 7 -2

Yeah I know this hammers me with my turn undead ability, but its fixable by using skill points (got enough with int 14) to get 5 ranks in knowledge(religion) by level two for the +2 bonus on turn checks and taking extra turning so I actually have turn attempts. Thats if I want to. I think my characters concept of turning undead would just involve dismemberment instead. The other skill points I would probably use for spot/listen and whatever else I could deem useful.

I could mung int instead, but then I end up with real low skill points.. maybe that is better tho. I hate playing stupid characters tho. Its hard. I also love skills.

I've also considered taking 14 in dex just to nab the extra ac point (two at lower levels), up my ref save a tad, and basically get half the improved initiative feat. In this case I would either have 10 in int letting me max conc and work up other skills one at a time, or I could take mediocre stats in both charisma and int. That seems suboptimal to me.


All in all, Im thinking of two things. 1) Having a nice character idea centered around dwarven battles, war, bloodshed, and the gods involved and 2) Being enough of a badass to make up for the fact that our party does not have a full out melee class in it. I want the enemy dead, and I want us to survive so we can revel in it and thank our respective gods.

Saph
2007-01-31, 10:57 AM
Looks just fine to me. You'll be hitting often, doing lots of damage, and you should be survivable too. Pick up a wand of Cure Light Wounds at level 2-3, memorise a bunch of buff spells every day, and you're good to go.

As for turning undead, just hack 'em to death. Who wants to have to hunt down a bunch of fleeing undead, anyway?

- Saph

Maclav
2007-01-31, 11:05 AM
Don't worry about chr or turning. Its your least useful core ability. You won't miss it unless your game is FULL of undead. I'd put the 14 in dex. You'll get +2 ac (eventually), +2 init, +2 ranged attack and +2 reflex. That is way more important that skill points you don't need. You have concentration, know (religion) covered with a 10 int and they are the big ones.

Telonius
2007-01-31, 11:23 AM
Hmm, I'm generally in agreement with Maclav, but I'd go a step further. Dex 15, Con 14 (+2 from dwarf), Int 10. If you get yourself a Mithral Fullplate, your max dex bonus will be +3. If you use your ability boost on Dex at fourth level, you'll have that; so max AC, quickly. A +3 con modifier is nothing to sneer at either. Any magic items you get for Con (except a Manual of Health, and good luck getting one of those) can only bump your Con score up by even numbers anyway, so you're not losing out on anything.

The only thing you'll lose out on is anything in the Combat Expertise feat chain (Combat Expertise requires Int 13), and your skill points. But you're a Cleric; that's what Rogues are for.

daggaz
2007-01-31, 11:27 AM
Hmm good points. Yeah my first idea was to take 14 in dex too... I started getting seduced by skill points but I think you have won me back. Nice point on the dex 15/con items are even thing too. hmmm...

warmachine
2007-01-31, 11:40 AM
Skill Focus (Concentration) > Combat CastingNormally correct unless, like me, you play a cleric who casts spells in the threatened-area, front line far more than other uses of Concentration. It's optimised for clerics in melee combat 'cos that's where those with the War domain usually are.

clericwithnogod
2007-01-31, 11:52 AM
Ok gonna say it again cuz I heard CodZilla mentioned again.. its CORE only =)
I dont even get persist spell.


The followers of the Cult of CoDzilla! consider that to be a minor obstacle. Remember the D in CoDzilla! is Druid - and he doesn't get Divine Metamagic at all... P.S. Please don't disrespect the deity by failing to use a '!' after his name.

But, on the suck side, it does seem like regardless of it's power (and regardless of the level at which you believe that power to be), there is something boring about building a melee cleric that is core only and doesn't multiclass.

You don't have quite enough feats to build a few interesting chains. So, you take individual things that provide the maximum solo benefit (and there isn't much selection there). Your spells don't include any interesting combat spells...things that require a little work to set up or let you take advantage of a situation as opposed to just stacking power. You fight well, but not interestingly. And, since you want to fight (it is a melee cleric afterall) being able to cast spells isn't really a good substitute for that.

daggaz
2007-01-31, 11:55 AM
I was actually a bit confused about this one... at the beginning of your round, if you decide to cast defensively, then your enemies dont get AoO's right? So basically, you should cast defensively every time you are casting near a threatening enemy. And if they dont get to make an AoO, they dont initiate a concentration check, so basically erm... this skill is only useful for casting spells in combat that have long casting times? Or what..

Maclav
2007-01-31, 11:56 AM
Normally correct unless, like me, you play a cleric who casts spells in the threatened-area, front line far more than other uses of Concentration. It's optimised for clerics in melee combat 'cos that's where those with the War domain usually are.

Even then, the one point loss in combat casting and grapples is far worth it to get the +3 to cast though ongoing damage, readied attacks and all the other times concentration is used.

Wolf53226
2007-01-31, 12:01 PM
Most of the spells that make CoDzilla are core, so that really only limits them to no Divine Metamagic, which wouldn't help you much anyways since you have such a bad char score that you wouldn't have all those turn attempts anyway. Really, going core only restricts a fighter far more than it does a Cleric.

daggaz
2007-01-31, 12:13 PM
oh wait ok, I finally found it in the Srd.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-01-31, 12:18 PM
As others have said: Don't bother with turning. By 6th level, almost everything you face is effectively immune to turning. The brutish undead have too many hit dice, and the ones withe the flashy special abilities have turn resistance. You might be able to hit a few undead with it every once in a great while, but you'll usually be better off attacking it with a spell or weapon.


Normally correct unless, like me, you play a cleric who casts spells in the threatened-area, front line far more than other uses of Concentration. It's optimised for clerics in melee combat 'cos that's where those with the War domain usually are.
The biggest problem with Combat Casting is that it eventually becomes literally useless. Sure, a 1st-level cleric might like that +4 when he has to roll an 11 or higher to cast defensively. But a 10th-level cleric would only need a 6 or higher to cast his most powerful spells. By 20th level, you can auto-succeed a defensive casting of any spell. And that's all without Combat Casting.

So Combat Casting is fine for the short term, but it's a waste in the long run.

Ikkitosen
2007-01-31, 01:13 PM
So Combat Casting is fine for the short term, but it's a waste in the long run.

I feel the need to add "except as a pre-req to some good PrCs". I'm not sure whether there are any good Core ones though.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-31, 01:14 PM
Ok gonna say it again cuz I heard CodZilla mentioned again.. its CORE only =)
I dont even get persist spell.

DMM(Persistent Spell) is just the cheesy icing on the uber cake. Seriously, you're a better fighter than fighters without it. Core Only WIDENS the difference between the cleric and the fighter, it doesn't bridge it! In core, the fihter doesn't have access to various series of feat chains that make him better at anything (such as Imp. Bullrush/Shock Trooper/Power Attack/Leap Attack/Combat Reflexes/Karmic Strike).

Meanwhile, the cleric becomes the fighter's equal or superior in combat in just one buff:

Level 1: Bless. Okay, the Fighter's better off for now, but you're Blessing everyone.
Level 3: Divine Favor: +2 AB/damage at level 3, +3 at level 6.
Level 7: Divine Power
Level 9: Quickened Divine Favor + Divine Power.
Level 10: Add Righteous Might when you have pre-combat buff time.
Level 15+: Quickened Divine Power + Righteous Might; Quickened Divine Favor + full attack the next round.

That's all you need. It's all core.

daggaz
2007-01-31, 01:22 PM
Yeah, thats pretty much what I was going for. Thanks bears.

Hmm... isn't divine favor +1 for every three CL, minimum +1? So I would read that as +1 at levels 1-5, +2 at level 6, +3 at level 9 and then capped. Also, it states explicitly that it doesnt affect damage.

For the record, I like your interpretation much better.

Telonius
2007-01-31, 01:27 PM
For the rest of the ability boosts, I'd suggest...
Level 4 - Dex (to 16).
8 - Wis (to 17).
12 - Wis (to 18).
16 - Wis (to 19 - congratulations, you can cast the 9th level spell you'll be getting next level).
20 - Wis (to 20).

Ikkitosen
2007-01-31, 01:57 PM
Yeah, thats pretty much what I was going for. Thanks bears.

Hmm... isn't divine favor +1 for every three CL, minimum +1? So I would read that as +1 at levels 1-5, +2 at level 6, +3 at level 9 and then capped. Also, it states explicitly that it doesnt affect damage.

For the record, I like your interpretation much better.

I checked (since I thought the same) - you're right, +1/3 levels, min 1 max 3.

AmoDman
2007-01-31, 02:29 PM
Does your dwarf have access to the Strength domain? I believe there are one or two Dwarven deities with both Strength and War, and I also STRONGLY reccomend a Dwarven Waraxe (martial for Dwarves, get with War Domain), Greataxe, or something with reach (like a longspear) since you are the ONLY tank in the group. You are going to need either the extra dmg or reach here.

Now the thing with the Strength domain is that, from level one you will have access to Enlarge Person, which will expontially make you more badass in close range combat. Even better, pick up Domain Spontaneity (sp?) from Complete Diving and cast Enlarge Person spontaneously as a normal spell slot spell with turn attempts!

And did you say NO PrCs were allowed from the Completes? Because Stormlord can be pretty kickass if you aim towards it (Complete Divine). Other than that, I'd say straight cleric takes the cake.

p.s. Shock Trooper and Elusive Target can be very useful...but are also very feat intensive. See Complete Warrior for those. If you don't go for them, yeah, Improved Toughness, Power Attack, etc. - all winners.

daggaz
2007-01-31, 02:32 PM
Like I posted earlier, my dwarf worships a homebrewed god with War and Strength as domains, greataxe is favored weapon.

AmoDman
2007-01-31, 02:38 PM
Like I posted earlier, my dwarf worships a homebrewed god with War and Strength as domains, greataxe is favored weapon.

Sorry, I only caught half of that :D. You're already well off then. I'd definitely reccomend taking a look at the domain spontaneity feat...It normally requires turn attempts, but if you're first level I'd discuss with your DM any way possible to get that Enlarge Person onto your normal spell list (it fits the flavors). That alone is money.

daggaz
2007-01-31, 02:41 PM
Well.. I could argue that as it is in my domain spells, I outta be able to cast it from a wand or scroll.. Luckily we have a wizard tho, and as the only tank, Im sure he wont mind tossing a few buffs my way.

AmoDman
2007-01-31, 02:45 PM
Well.. I could argue that as it is in my domain spells, I outta be able to cast it from a wand or scroll.. Luckily we have a wizard tho, and as the only tank, Im sure he wont mind tossing a few buffs my way.

Actually, that is correct w/o argument. If you can cast it, you can use a wand/scroll of it. If you want to dish out the dough for a wand I'd say go for it, though your money is your money (lots of tempting to pretties to buy :D). In the past, I had my cleric enlarge himself while the wizard does something really damaging to the enemy, like color spray (at low levels...). It just helps the party's overall damage capability the more you can buff yourself ;). I think you're off to a good start, anyhow. You might want to toss a longspear as a secondary melee weapon just for kicks and giggles when you need some extra reach, too. It is a simple weapon.

cthulhu_waits
2007-01-31, 02:51 PM
If there is any way to do it, get the Destruction domain for you melee cleric. The smiting owns. It's not quite as good as the paladin smiting on damage, but it's very nice because it's "Smite anyone I feel like smiting" and not limited by alignment.

It's also very nice with power attack, convert the bonus to hit to even more damage.

Ohh...with your abysmal charisma it's not as good. :(

Roderick_BR
2007-01-31, 02:56 PM
Never underestimate the little power that weaker feats can have. Weapon Focus and Dodge can look useless at higher level, but you'll thank your deity when your high level character just escaped sure death because the enemy missed you exacly for that 1 point, and you managed to hit him because of that 1 point. I know. I have a friend that keeps all the small bonuses, and when I notice, he's not missing one swing.

So, Weapon Focus. Check. Power Attack: If you use a THW, even better. Cleave and Great Cleave are amazing when you are fighting a crowd. Dodge is good on itself, but if you don't expect to use Mobility and Spring Attack, just take Combat Expert. You can get Trip and Sunder later, that is good against other meelers (and don't forget, THW gains better bonuses for these maneuvers)

Improved Initiative. I notice most clerics sucks to act first. This is a good choice.

Charisma 5? Totally not worth. Use your divine power to buff yourself, and hack at those damned zombies. Keep a morningstar tied to your belt for the eventual skeleton.

You may want to take one level of Fighter if you are wiling to lose one Cleric level. It's worth for the Extra feat and better hit points.


Okay, here's a build: Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Dodge or Combat Expertize. Then Scrible Scrow (Saves on money) or Craft Armor and Arms or Wondrous Itens.
Get the axe plus a morning star (dosen't lose much for the low critical as you'll keep it to skeletons), a heavy crossbow (you can either shot once and charge into meelee, or take cover to reload). And, of course, the best armor you can find. Spend some money in potions also, as you'll find yourself in dire situations a lot.
Improved Overrum is great to knock prone weaker enemies (read: wizards).
Combat Casting is useful too, as you'll be casting a lot in combat. You can get Skill Focus later to get +7 in combat.

For fun: Endurance (good to sleep in heavy armor) and Diehard. Just enough time to cast that Cure Light that'll save your life.
Get also eschew materials. As long you keep your holy symbol, you are good. Maybe Toughness and Greater Fortitude. I like to abuse dwarf's high Con :p

With that low a charisma, it's just not worth using Turn Undead at all. You'll have to roll a 7 just to make your turn power at your current level.

daggaz
2007-01-31, 03:27 PM
Well, think my feats will be thus..1.Power Attack (cant use till next level, but oh well)3.Extend Spell6.Craft Wonderous Item9.Quicken Spell12.15.18.I am thinking of going for spring attack with the last three, but who knows, might really want improved initiative and some spell focus or metamagic or something at that point.

AmoDman
2007-01-31, 04:41 PM
If there is any way to do it, get the Destruction domain for you melee cleric. The smiting owns. It's not quite as good as the paladin smiting on damage, but it's very nice because it's "Smite anyone I feel like smiting" and not limited by alignment.

It's also very nice with power attack, convert the bonus to hit to even more damage.

Ohh...with your abysmal charisma it's not as good. :(

Check the Strength domain. It's bonus is better. It doesn't hit as hard at first level, but it scales a lot deadlier than the Smite from Destruction.

longtooth878
2007-01-31, 05:15 PM
I loved the clerics, I used to be the only one who played clerics in my group(s) but 3rd (and/or 3.5) I felt that they gutted them like a fish. All of the clerics are the same. Oh you get two choices of Domains but so does the other clerics. Also a cleric who worships a snow god can cast flame strike. Now I now its up to the "DM" to keep that in line, but it should't be a choice to begain with. I guess what I am saying is I liked the "sphere" method of spells for the clerics. I guess I am stuck with the way things are now and I guess I will just have to donate my $20 to Jerry's kids until they find a cure.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-01-31, 05:18 PM
Actually, that is correct w/o argument. If you can cast it, you can use a wand/scroll of it.
Just a clarification though: Scrolls are typed as Arcane or Divine. A single-classed cleric with the Strength domain would only be able to use a Divine scroll of enlarge person. Since enlarge person is only available as a divine spell to clerics with the Strength domain, it would have to be scribed by such a cleric. It doesn't strike me that many Strength-oriented clerics would have Scribe Scroll, though, so an appropriate scroll may be difficult to come by.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-31, 06:18 PM
You may want to take one level of Fighter if you are wiling to lose one Cleric level. It's worth for the Extra feat and better hit points.


It is so totally not worth it.

AmoDman
2007-01-31, 06:58 PM
It is so totally not worth it.

QFT x 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Saph
2007-01-31, 07:01 PM
Anyway, to answer the original question: No, core Cleric feats don't really suck, because Clerics are so powerful they don't NEED optimal feats to be deadly. It's actually pretty hard to make a weak cleric.

- Saph

Maclav
2007-02-01, 08:36 AM
Anyway, to answer the original question: No, core Cleric feats don't really suck, because Clerics are so powerful they don't NEED optimal feats to be deadly. It's actually pretty hard to make a weak cleric.

- Saph

Even if they do something dumb like take whirlwind and dip into fighter. ;)

clericwithnogod
2007-02-01, 08:44 AM
Even if they do something dumb like take whirlwind and dip into fighter. ;)

Nothing dumb about fitting into your character concept and still being able to fulfill your role in the party...

longtooth878
2007-02-01, 05:18 PM
I think they have some neat abilities but I think they could have personalized them little more. And I am not going to mention the wizard spells they loaded them with(I am personally waiting on the cleric fireball in 5th ed.). The coolest thing they did was to be able to do other things with your turn undead ablitiy.

daggaz
2007-02-01, 07:29 PM
Hmm. I hate cheese, in all its forms. How fun is it when you just break the game?

That said, I think they should have just made turning more effective. Or added feats that made it more effective. Its kind of dumb that a core class ability is pretty much useless after so and so level. They should try to balance it with the monsters, so it scales and has some redeemable effect even at high levels.

Not make it into some kind of godsend energy source for the ultimate cheese bomb. (You cant even rollplay that kind of cheezed fluff, in my opinion. 'Grumthar IronHammer holds his holy symbol to the heavens, and calls upon to the gods to... erm.. lets see.. yeah, I call upon the gods to cast quickened persisted 'Divine Power' and I reach into to my haversack and pull out some rods that give me, yeah.. seven extra turn attempts, plus my 7 I have already but never use for their actual purpose, which I use to make the spell level back down to 4th, so now I have...lets see... 8 + 4 + 16...umm..29 BaB and...yeah... ' Ok you get the picture.

Catharsis
2007-02-02, 09:36 AM
If you're seeing yourself as a combattant first and foremost rather than a primary caster, couldn't it be worthwhile to take the first level as a Barbarian? 4 extra hitpoints, +2 fort saves, fast movement (to offset that speed penalty from the mithral full plate), access to Listen (can be a life-saver) and a powerful, stackable, auto-quickened, undispellable buff that you can have three times a day (with Extra Rage) doesn't sound too harsh. Roleplay-wise, the image of a wild warrior who finds his destiny in a god works well.

Hmmm, that makes me wanna play a falchion-wielding cleric of Anhur...

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-02, 09:52 AM
If you're seeing yourself as a combattant first and foremost rather than a primary caster, couldn't it be worthwhile to take the first level as a Barbarian? 4 extra hitpoints, +2 fort saves, fast movement (to offset that speed penalty from the mithral full plate), access to Listen (can be a life-saver) and a powerful, stackable, auto-quickened, undispellable buff that you can have three times a day (with Extra Rage) doesn't sound too harsh. Roleplay-wise, the image of a wild warrior who finds his destiny in a god works well.

Hmmm, that makes me wanna play a falchion-wielding cleric of Anhur...
No, it wouldn't. You're getting new levels of spells a level later, and getting fewer high-level spells eventually.

I mean, sure, it's not terrible, but you might as well just stick with cleric.

Catharsis
2007-02-02, 10:21 AM
I mean, sure, it's not terrible, but you might as well just stick with cleric.
With worthwhile, I meant "effective" rather than "as effective as CoDzilla". :wink:

Does your analysis also hold for a campaign that is expected to run until about lvl 16? I would guess that the imbalance between Rage and higher-level spells isn't very pronounced yet at that stage.

Person_Man
2007-02-02, 02:33 PM
I would go with the Travel and Strength domains. The Travel domain power is wildly useful. Tanglefoot bags, Hold Person, Paralyze, and similar effects are all Save or Lose situations which you pretty much auto-bypass most of the time. And it gives you access to Longstrider, Fly, Dimension Door, and Teleport. Strength gives you access to Enlarge Person and Bull's Stregth, two excellent low level buffs, either of which is more useful then Weapon Focus.

People have made some good feat suggestions. If you want something different, you can always take Tower Shield Prof. and Dodge. Focus on battlefield control spells, summon spells, and buffing/healing your friends. It's not as fun as trying to smash your enemies with a mace, but I've found that its more effective, and that you rarely die.