I dreamed about Vaarsuvius' gender

[Chronos]

I had one of those weird dreams last night. I dreamed that we had a new update, which showed a new character who was familiar with elven physiology and who had seen V unclothed (I think the character was a surgeon or grafter or something like that, and had operated on V). And the character referred to V with the pronoun "she"

Annoyingly, though, the update wasn't in the form of a comic, but something like a live-streaming thing, so it wasn't possible to link to it.

Anyway, that's my contribution for the day to keeping up the weirdness factor around here.

[137beth]

Are you sure the person wasn't using a Potion of Glibness?

[Living Oxymoron]

Annoyingly, though, the update wasn't in the form of a comic, but something like a live-streaming thing, so it wasn't possible to link to it.

That's sad, because if you had linked I could have seen it when I visit this forum in my dreams.

[SaintRidley]

Not sure why seeing V naked would tell you anything about V's gender, anyway. Biological sex? Sure. Gender? Not so much.

[ufo]

Not sure why seeing V naked would tell you anything about V's gender, anyway. Biological sex? Sure. Gender? Not so much.

I'm sure informing people about the problems of a culture that enforces a binary view on genders is more effective if you're more direct and less smug about it :smallsmile:

[Chronos]

Given how closely correlated anatomical sex and psychological gender are, seeing a person naked certainly tells you something about that person's gender.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Huh. Interesting. At least your dream made sense, except for the last part. I once had a dream where a new update revealed that the MitD was O-Chul's long-lost brother, and they were both shapeshifters of some sort. This was why O-Chul was able to survive at Azure City for so long. And it was in some weird video format.

And then I woke up and discovered that there was a new comic up. Weirdest thing.

[Socksy]

Huh. Interesting. At least your dream made sense, except for the last part. I once had a dream where a new update revealed that the MitD was O-Chul's long-lost brother, and they were both shapeshifters of some sort. This was why O-Chul was able to survive at Azure City for so long. And it was in some weird video format.

And then I woke up and discovered that there was a new comic up. Weirdest thing.

New headcanon^

I once had a dream that V and Z were in a duel (of the swashbuckley type, they were using rapiers), with a DM as the umpire/referee type thing.

Z attacked and hit V, who said something like "Wait! I want to sunder that attack!" (For some strange dream reason, the words 'sunder' and 'parry' had swapped meanings.) The DM was like "Are you sure? Sunder rules are hard!", but V insisted, so he started looking at the tables in the DMG and rolling d%, face growing more and more puzzled, until he finally announced: "Z just got V pregnant! I warned you about sunder rules!"

And that's when I started shipping V <3< Z really hard...

[cheesecake]

Not sure why seeing V naked would tell you anything about V's gender, anyway. Biological sex? Sure. Gender? Not so much.

Gender is directly tied to what one would see if V were naked.

I will to the day I die say V is female. Before I ever came to the forum, I said V was female. I never knew it was even a debate and honestly don't see any reason now to question it.

[Tiiba]

How male do you have to be before people realize that you're male?

Especially an elf. An androgynous elf is male. An androgynous dwarf is female.

[Grey Watcher]

The real question is, did your dream conform to your waking belief about Vaarsuvius's sex and/or gender?

[An Enemy Spy]

Gender is directly tied to what one would see if V were naked.

I will to the day I die say V is female. Before I ever came to the forum, I said V was female. I never knew it was even a debate and honestly don't see any reason now to question it.

That's funny, because I had the exact opposite thought. I can't even conceive of V being female, he just always seemed like a guy to me. I had no idea he wasn't supposed to unambiguously male before characters started remarking on it.

[Anarion]

How male do you have to be before people realize that you're male?

Especially an elf. An androgynous elf is male. An androgynous dwarf is female.

Ha, positing the existence of female dwarves. That's a good one.


The real question is, did your dream conform to your waking belief about Vaarsuvius's sex and/or gender?

The dream altered reality to make it conform. Dreams are cool like that.

[Dr.Gunsforhands]

I'm pretty sure that the word gender is defined such that it can have both of these meanings... The meanings are so closely related that a person trying to talk about one thing could easily be mistakenly construed as referring to the other, unfortunately, but in this case it's intuitive enough that I assumed SaintRidley was just picking nits for a laugh.

I don't even think we have much recourse to avoid the nitpick, because sex has a similar problem. It can also refer to the activity, and many people avoid using the word in this context for that reason.

If they did, someone would likely drop by and wonder, "wow, to describe V's sex, they must have examined V's elven physiology extremely closely... If you know what I mean!!11 lol lol #imsofunny"

...a harrowing scenario, to be sure. :smalltongue:

[CaDzilla]

I had a dream that Laurin was looking out on a balcony and looking at Malack in the clouds.

[jere7my]

Gender is directly tied to what one would see if V were naked.

The world is full of people whose gender has nothing to do with their biological sex.

[Socksy]

I had a dream that Laurin was looking out on a balcony and looking at Malack in the clouds.

No shhhh that's sad
The Vector Legion are my pRECIOUS BABIES
*loud wailing about how Malack is dead and Laurin really did care about him*

[oppyu]

Heathen lies, Vaarsuvius (and elves in OOTSland in general) is agendered. Any who disagree with me will face the stinging shame of knowing I think they're wrong.

[Cavenskull]

The world is full of people whose gender has nothing to do with their biological sex.
That's obvious based on the post you quoted. Clearly, their gender is directly tied to what they would see if V was naked. Vaarsuvius' naked body is the key to everybody's gender.

[cheesecake]

The world is full of people whose gender has nothing to do with their biological sex.

This is where I get lost.

Explain this to me?

If I have a "XXX" set of genitals does that mean I might not be male, but in fact might be female?

http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/wat-meme.jpg

[Grey Watcher]

This is where I get lost.

Explain this to me?

If I have a "XXX" set of genitals does that mean I might not be male, but in fact might be female?

That's pretty much what "transgender" means in a nutshell, yes.

[Kalmageddon]

This is where I get lost.

Explain this to me?

If I have a "XXX" set of genitals does that mean I might not be male, but in fact might be female?


You might want to stay away from this, trust me.

[orrion]

I dreamed about cake. It was chocolate cake. With chocolate frosting. There was chocolate ice cream.

It was yummy and delicious.

[Cizak]

This is where I get lost.

Explain this to me?

If I have a "XXX" set of genitals does that mean I might not be male, but in fact might be female?

Here, have a comic about agender. (http://chaoslife.findchaos.com/agender-agenda) It touches on the subject.


"Sex", that silly word that made you giggle in 7th grade Biology is just that: Biology.
The biological sum of your parts, with anatomy, hormones and chromosomes all factoring into its definition. You can even alter them to the point of legally redefining your sex!
But gender is something ingrained to your personal indentity. It's how you perceive yourself, how you feel you fit into the human race. It might be tied to your sex or it might be at odds with it."

[jere7my]

If I have a "XXX" set of genitals does that mean I might not be male, but in fact might be female?

If you have a XXX set of genitals, you might be a porn star.

[YossarianLives]

OOTS is invading the dreams of its fans.

[denthor]

When discussing V's gender always ask a beholder if you really want to know.

8th or 9th comic down (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/GuestStrips.html)

[JennTora]

I had a dream last night that Elan was actually a member of some mysterious race and in his true form he had blue skin and a spiky yellow Mohawk. Also he was not stupid at all.

[cheesecake]

You might want to stay away from this, trust me.

I guess I at 30 I must be too old to grasp this concept. I guess today you can decide if you want to be a boy or a girl even if you have the physical make up of a girl.

When I fill out a job application shouldn't they have two check boxes. Sex M or F then below that Gender M or F?


But taking all this into consideration...

V is a Hermaphrodite. There are many combinations. Girl/Boy Boy/Girl Girl/Girl Boy/Boy...V can be anything she wants to be and be legimate. Because V wants ultimate power, V has ultimate power over physical sex and gender.

[Chronos]

Quoth Grey Watcher:

The real question is, did your dream conform to your waking belief about Vaarsuvius's sex and/or gender?
Nope. My waking conception is that V's gender is 1/sqrt(2)*|male> + 1/sqrt(2)*|female> , and that V's mate is 1/sqrt(2)*|male> - 1/sqrt(2)*|female> . In other words, if we represent Elan's gender as | , and Haley's gender as - , then Vaarsuvius' is / and Inkyrius' is \ .

[Fates]

I guess I at 30 I must be too old to grasp this concept. I guess today you can decide if you want to be a boy or a girl even if you have the physical make up of a girl.

When I fill out a job application shouldn't they have two check boxes. Sex M or F then below that Gender M or F?


But taking all this into consideration...

V is a Hermaphrodite. There are many combinations. Girl/Boy Boy/Girl Girl/Girl Boy/Boy...V can be anything she wants to be and be legimate. Because V wants ultimate power, V has ultimate power over physical sex and gender.

Transgenders have been a thing for a very long time...but it was somewhat taboo and not often spoken of in most societies until more recently.

I don't see why a sex box would be necessary at all on job applications. Why should your boss care whether you're convex or concave? Just limit it to gender, and do include more than just the standard M/F dichotomy as well.

[oppyu]

I guess I at 30 I must be too old to grasp this concept. I guess today you can decide if you want to be a boy or a girl even if you have the physical make up of a girl.

When I fill out a job application shouldn't they have two check boxes. Sex M or F then below that Gender M or F?


But taking all this into consideration...

V is a Hermaphrodite. There are many combinations. Girl/Boy Boy/Girl Girl/Girl Boy/Boy...V can be anything she wants to be and be legimate. Because V wants ultimate power, V has ultimate power over physical sex and gender.
Actually, yes. That is accurate. It's not just limited to straight male-to-female or vice versa transgender though; check the new Facebook gender options (http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2014/02/13/facebook_custom_gender_options_here_are_all_56_cus tom_options.html) for a sample of the genders going around these days. And yes, employers should include more options for the non-binary gendered. Putting down 'Gender' followed by a dotted line should cover it.

[Socksy]

Nope. My waking conception is that V's gender is 1/sqrt(2)*|male> + 1/sqrt(2)*|female> , and that V's mate is 1/sqrt(2)*|male> - 1/sqrt(2)*|female> . In other words, if we represent Elan's gender as | , and Haley's gender as - , then Vaarsuvius' is / and Inkyrius' is \ .

So you're saying |Haley's gender| is smaller than |Elan's gender|?

What I'm getting from this is that if Haley's gender was the line from (-1,0) to (1,0) and Elan's was the line from (0,-1) to (0,1), then V's goes from (-1/sqrt2, -1/sqrt2) to (1/sqrt2, 1/sqrt2), and Inky's goes from (-1/sqrt2, 1/sqrt2) to (1/sqrt2, -1/sqrt2)?

[Sith_Happens]

I once had a dream that V and Z were in a duel (of the swashbuckley type, they were using rapiers), with a DM as the umpire/referee type thing.

Z attacked and hit V, who said something like "Wait! I want to sunder that attack!" (For some strange dream reason, the words 'sunder' and 'parry' had swapped meanings.) The DM was like "Are you sure? Sunder rules are hard!", but V insisted, so he started looking at the tables in the DMG and rolling d%, face growing more and more puzzled, until he finally announced: "Z just got V pregnant! I warned you about sunder rules!"

Best. Dream. Ever.


What I'm getting from this is that if Haley's gender was the line from (-1,0) to (1,0) and Elan's was the line from (0,-1) to (0,1), then V's goes from (-1/sqrt2, -1/sqrt2) to (1/sqrt2, 1/sqrt2), and Inky's goes from (-1/sqrt2, 1/sqrt2) to (1/sqrt2, -1/sqrt2)?

Cartesian? Please, Elven genders are obviously complex polar.:smalltongue:

[Socksy]

Cartesian? Please, Elven genders are obviously complex polar.:smalltongue:

But that would make Elan's | gender entirely imaginary!
Then again, he's not an elf.

Also, after googling complex polar form, I realised I'd been using it in maths for two years without knowing its name... :smallredface:

[jere7my]

I guess I at 30 I must be too old to grasp this concept. I guess today you can decide if you want to be a boy or a girl even if you have the physical make up of a girl.

I'm a decade older than that, and I've managed to wrap my head around it. Since we're on a forum dedicated to a fantasy story, let me run you a hypothetical:

If a meddlesome wizard transferred your mind (I'm assuming you're a dude here) into the body of a woman, you'd still think of yourself as a man, right? You'd still have the same thoughts and self-perception, at least for a while; you'd still be you.

If you can accept that, then you've accepted the idea that physical sex and gender don't always have to go together. From there, it's a small step to imagine people who feel like that all the time, often from a very young age—who feel, very strongly and firmly, that their inner self doesn't match their outer body. People react to this in a lot of ways, from surgery to hormones to dressing differently to cutting their hair to nothing at all, but whatever they decide to do it's polite to treat them as the gender they want to be treated as.

[Cavenskull]

I don't see why a sex box would be necessary at all on job applications. Why should your boss care whether you're convex or concave?
Because there are cases where that sort of thing is relevant. For instance, female shoppers might not want to have to interact with male sales representative in the lingerie section. Males may not want to be strip-searched by female officers, and when it comes to the medical field, many patients aren't comfortable being examined by members of the opposite sex. A lot of it boils down to liability. It may not be a perfect system, but it avoids a lot of potential problems without forcing everyone to have to either come clean or lie about their gender identity.

[Chronos]

Assume that all of those vertical, horizontal, and diagonal lines were the same length: I was working within the constraints of the ASCII character set there. But you'll note that my ket expressions included the 1/sqrt(2) factors for the elven genders.

[crayzz]

It may not be a perfect system, but it avoids a lot of potential problems without forcing everyone to have to either come clean or lie about their gender identity.

One of us is confused.

Fates was referring to questions about ones genitals. If, say, a trans man is asked what his assigned sex is, he would be forced to say "female" (or lie). Your system forces trans people to identify themselves. It doesn't help them keep quiet about it.

___

Never had any dreams about Oots. I remember once I played Baldurs Gate II so much that my dreams played out the same way. I controlled myself and my friends from a computer screen the same way I'd control my BGII characters.

[Cavenskull]

One of us is confused.

Fates was referring to questions about ones genitals. If, say, a trans man is asked what his assigned sex is, he would be forced to say "female" (or lie). Your system forces trans people to identify themselves. It doesn't help them keep quiet about it.

That's why I said it's not a perfect system. Unfortunately, we're still a long ways out from a society where a person's sex and gender can be considered a non-issue. So in the meantime we're stuck with a system that caters to heterosexual people.

With the current system, trans individual would end up suffering as your example indicates, but it doesn't require people to disclose their gender identity. An alternative system that emphasizes gender identity over sex could get complicated quite fast and may very well introduce more problems than it solves. And in today's society, not having a system at all just isn't going to work.

[theMycon]

When discussing V's gender always ask a beholder if you really want to know.

8th or 9th comic down (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/GuestStrips.html)

Guest comic or not, this is already canonically settled in comic 667 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0667.html).

V admits he's wrong. QED, he's a man.

[Mith]

V doesn't refer to himself by gene=der in that strip. Or did I miss something?

[Dienekes]

I guess I at 30 I must be too old to grasp this concept. I guess today you can decide if you want to be a boy or a girl even if you have the physical make up of a girl.

When I fill out a job application shouldn't they have two check boxes. Sex M or F then below that Gender M or F?


But taking all this into consideration...

V is a Hermaphrodite. There are many combinations. Girl/Boy Boy/Girl Girl/Girl Boy/Boy...V can be anything she wants to be and be legimate. Because V wants ultimate power, V has ultimate power over physical sex and gender.

General gist, sex means what genitals you were born with.
Gender, to the layman, means the exact same thing.
Gender, to people who know about gender studies, means which of many roles and relationships in society you choose to identify yourself as. Which is where we get trans-males and trans-females, and probably more things I don't know about. They tend to get annoyed when people make the mistake. I think their qualms are something about limiting the self-expression of people or something.

Honestly, if someone starts acting up about the differences between gender and sex, it's really best to just smile, say "Oh, that's nice" and move on to a different topic.

[oppyu]

Note: If you say "oh that's nice" then try to change the subject, someone may (justifiably) punch you. There is a high correlation between people saying "oh that's nice" and people (justifiably) being punched. Try instead apologising for making the mistake, or saying literally anything aside from "oh that's nice." Because you will (justifiably) be punched.

Seriously, you could be incredibly dismissive of the trans population and and tell them to stop acting up about societal prejudice, ignorance and all that, and it would still be less (justifiable) punch-inducing than "oh that's nice."

[Dienekes]

Note: If you say "oh that's nice" then try to change the subject, someone may (justifiably) punch you. There is a high correlation between people saying "oh that's nice" and people (justifiably) being punched. Try instead apologising for making the mistake, or saying literally anything aside from "oh that's nice." Because you will (justifiably) be punched.

Seriously, you could be incredibly dismissive of the trans population and and tell them to stop acting up about societal prejudice, ignorance and all that, and it would still be less (justifiable) punch-inducing than "oh that's nice."

Not at all, protecting rights and destroying prejudices is good. Getting prissy about the technical definition of a word when it was obvious what was being talked about is just annoying in the same way grammar nazi's are annoying.

[jere7my]

Not at all, protecting rights and destroying prejudices is good. Getting prissy about the technical definition of a word when it was obvious what was being talked about is just annoying in the same way grammar nazi's are annoying.

"Nazis".

(Couldn't resist that one.)

[Dienekes]

"Nazis".

(Couldn't resist that one.)

Found ya, ya little bugger!
Would you believe I left that there on purpose as a joke?

[Codex]

Makes more sense than my OOTS dreams.

[WindStruck]

This is why Rich is never going to reveal V's gender! What started out as a harmless joke turned into a monstrosity of epic proportions like the snarl! Now the entire community is divided into factions devoted to their belief in V's gender!

If he were to reveal V's gender now...there would be chaos! Panic! Destruction! A huge chunk of his readers would leave in utter disgust, vowing to never see another strip or buy a piece of merchandise again because the comic was RUINED FOREVER.

*dramatic apocalypse theme*

[VoxRationis]

Reasoning on Vaarsuvius' sex:

1) It was not originally intended by Mr. Burlew that the matter be ambiguous.
2) Vaarsuvius has a straight-lined figure akin to that of the males of OotS, not like that of Haley or other females shown.
3) Vaarsuvius wears a long garment without trousers, with a hemline at the wizard's ankles.
3a) Wizards are well-known for wearing robes, and several wizard-centered magic items are robes.
3b) Vaarsuvius is a wizard, and therefore is likely to wear robes, regardless of sex.
4) Men and women can both grow hair of the length Vaarsuvius' hair ends at.
5) The first thing we know about Vaarsuvius, besides being an elf wizard, is that the character has a long name with a masculine Latin ending.
6) Vaarsuvius' character traits, such as being self-important, aggressive and direct in use of destructive power, and sesquipedalian, are more often seen in fictional male characters (emphasis on fictional) than on fictional female characters.

Occam's Razor suggests pretty clearly, then, considering that Vaarsuvius, from the beginning has several male traits and no unambiguously female traits, that Vaarsuvius was meant to be unambiguously male at the start of the comic and the ambiguity in gender is only thanks to people incapable of imagining men with long robes or long hair.

[Codex]

We've been with OOTS since the beginning. We've watched it grow from a simple gag a day to a sweeping, grand, but still hillarious adventure. Some of us even donated our hard earned money for no reason other than the fact that we like this webcomic. And now we're pointlessly debating a entirely ambigous gender of an elf? Really?

[WindStruck]

It's not just "an elf". V is one of the main characters in the story and plays a significant role in its development.

[Codex]

I never said he was just an elf. He's one of my favorite characters. I'm just saying, there's no resolution, so why argue?

[Demoman]

Mostly because its a harmless and fun debate. It may seem like people get divided into "camps" on this issue but it is all in good fun.

Personally I just see Vaarsuvius as... Vaarsuvius. Not sure why but gender never really struck me in "its" case. Though when I shorthand it, I say he or him until I correct myself. Guess I'm just confused.

To OP: interesting dream and please be my spiritual DM.

[Bleak Ink]

Fun to have headcanons for, sure. But these threads debating Vaarsuvius' gender quickly spiral into demeaning and invasive. Every time. This is a very real and very important matter to a lot of people, and always, inevitably, this thread boils down to an ignorant and bizarre obsession over genitals and bodies. Do they make that grand of a difference in V as a character, or a person?

[Dammann]

Fun to have headcanons for, sure. But these threads debating Vaarsuvius' gender quickly spiral into demeaning and invasive. Every time. This is a very real and very important matter to a lot of people, and always, inevitably, this thread boils down to an ignorant and bizarre obsession over genitals and bodies. Do they make that grand of a difference in V as a character, or a person?

They do not. V's character is independent of gender or sex, which is cool. The most important thing about any person is seldom either.

It might seem that way with people with a non-obvious combination of sex and gender, but in that hypothetical person's case, the reason that is important is that they are in a society which would be unlikely to accept them fully.

I think it can be hard to accept that some things will never be answered or made explicit. Whether V is a male or female or whatever is a question that is built into our language, so I can see why the answer seems so urgent. But in the end, it is not what is important about this character.

The ambiguity draws attention to how much we like things sorted out and labelled, which might tell us something about how important those labels and categories are in our personal knowing who someone is. That tells us more about ourselves than it does about this stick-elf whose obsessions cost him/her his/her family and possibly soul.

[Chronos]

Aside: I see that this thread now bears the "Guessing" tag. OK, I suppose that's a reasonable tag to attach to it... But I didn't put it there. Did the moderators go through and tag every live thread while the board was down? That seems a lot of work. And why are many threads still un-tagged, then? Or is it something that random members can change?

[Jasdoif]

Aside: I see that this thread now bears the "Guessing" tag. OK, I suppose that's a reasonable tag to attach to it... But I didn't put it there. Did the moderators go through and tag every live thread while the board was down? That seems a lot of work. And why are many threads still un-tagged, then? Or is it something that random members can change?That's a thread prefix, technically; tags are something different. (Have you seen the announcement about the new forum features (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?f=22&a=71)? It might answer your questions).

And at least some of them were added by the moderators by hand; the Index of the Giant's Comments had an edit note this morning about adding the prefix.

[Themrys]

This is where I get lost.

Explain this to me?

If I have a "XXX" set of genitals does that mean I might not be male, but in fact might be female?



If you have a "XXX" set of genitals, then you suffer from Triple X Syndrome, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_X_syndrome

And it's not funny. Also, the genitals look like those of a XX person.

Also, what a person looks like is not only determined by chromosomes, it's more complicated than that. Involves hormones. The default of the human body is female, so, the XY combination may be found in a person who looks like a woman but may or may not consider themselves a woman.


I like the theory that V could be female, and am saddened by the fact that, most likely, s/he was intended to be male.

[Shining Wrath]

Just to clear up semantics:

Your SEX is related to your naughty bits being innies or outies.
Your GENDER is related to how you relate to the world.

People who are transgendered have one set of naughty bits but relate to the world (including themselves) as though they had the other.

To further complicate matters, transgendered people can be sexually attracted to either or both options.

And if your SEX and your GENDER match (like me), you are cis-gendered. And your life is probably a lot easier for that, so please be gentle to those who are not.

Vaarsuvius has naughty bits of one sort, but may think and feel as though the other set would be a better match. Or not. The Giant's not telling.

Only Belkar knows, and only if he takes enough ranks in knowledge(nature) to make sense of what he saw in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0177.html

[gerryq]

Actually, yes. That is accurate. It's not just limited to straight male-to-female or vice versa transgender though; check the new Facebook gender options (http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2014/02/13/facebook_custom_gender_options_here_are_all_56_cus tom_options.html) for a sample of the genders going around these days. And yes, employers should include more options for the non-binary gendered. Putting down 'Gender' followed by a dotted line should cover it.

At least with Sex? you can answer "Yes, please"!