What is my Initiator Level?

[Cybris75]

For a short adventure our DM called for ECL 8 characters. I wanted tried a Rogue/Swordsage and really wanted Assassin's Stance (a level 3 stance) to complement my Sneak Attack.

I built a Rogue 4/Swordsage 3/Fighter 1. Actually wanted another level of Swordsage, but that wouldn't grant me a new stance, so I took Fighter for the bonus feat Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance).

Now here's my question: What Initiator Level do I have on ECL 8 when taking the Martial Stance feat as a Fighter bonus feat? By a strict reading I actually get Initiator Level 4, because Fighter is not a martial adept class, making the whole thing illegal. The Swordsage part has Initiator Level 5.

[Ryuuk]

It would be 5, regardless of order I believe.

0.5 for every Rogue level (2 total)
1 for every Swordsage level (3 total)
0.5 for every Fighter level (0.5 rounded to 0 total)

You have already taken levels in swordsage, so the feats would use your swordsage initiator level. You would be 5.5 rounded to 5 when you take Fighter 1 at 8th.

[Nihilarian]

2 (rogue) + 3 (swordage) +0.5

Your Initiator Level should be 5.

[Ramza00]

Assumming this order Rogue 4/Swordsage 3/Fighter 1. Here is your initiator level breakdown

Level 2 and 3: IL 1
Level 4: IL 2
Level 5: IL 3
Level 6: IL 4
Level 7: IL 5
Level 8: IL 5.5 (so in reality 5).

Your build works with assassin's stance.

Please tell me you have taken craven?

[Cybris75]

Thanks guys!

I just reread the description of the Martial Stance feat and now understand the calculation.

[Cybris75]

Please tell me you have taken craven?

I'm low on feats, being a Whisper Gnome. My feats are:
Two-Weapon Fighting
Weapon Finesse
Shadow Blade
Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance)

No space left for Craven.

Edit: I did take the Penetrating Strike ACF, though.

[Roog]

Why take Assassin's Stance rather than Craven?

Craven would give more damage, and allow you to use another stance.

[Techwarrior]

Swordsage gets a stance at second level. If you take Swordsage 2 at 8th level you can have Assassin's Stance be your second stance choice, freeing up your third level of Swordsage to take something else (preferably with full BAB) and allowing you to select a different fighter feat.

[Ketiara]

Swordsage gets a stance at second level. If you take Swordsage 2 at 8th level you can have Assassin's Stance be your second stance choice, freeing up your third level of Swordsage to take something else (preferably with full BAB) and allowing you to select a different fighter feat.

This is what i would do aswell.

[Crake]

Why take Assassin's Stance rather than Craven?

Craven would give more damage, and allow you to use another stance.

maybe not everyone is interested in playing a fear crippled rogue?

[Techwarrior]

maybe not everyone is interested in playing a fear crippled rogue?

Rogues in general already are fear crippled by the fact that their Will save bites the hardest out of all Core classes (except maybe Fighter)

[Seerow]

maybe not everyone is interested in playing a fear crippled rogue?

OP didn't say he had a problem with craven, just that he is strapped with feats.


Anyway, taking Swordsage 2 at level 8 seems to be a good answer. It loses you 1 level of swordsage, but gets you what you want. Swordsage 3 is relatively empty anyway. You can fill the extra level with another Rogue or Fighter level, and free up the feat to take Craven.

[Crake]

Rogues in general already are fear crippled by the fact that their Will save bites the hardest out of all Core classes (except maybe Fighter)

Except 3 levels of swordsage is a decent step to fixing that problem. Plus, the fact that craven stops working if you ever become immune to fear means you can never get mind blank, or eat a heros feast without losing the benefits, which is pretty lame in my opinion.

[ksbsnowowl]

Except 3 levels of swordsage is a decent step to fixing that problem. Plus, the fact that craven stops working if you ever become immune to fear means you can never get mind blank, or eat a heros feast without losing the benefits, which is pretty lame in my opinion.

Swordsage 2 and Swordsage 3 both have the same base Will save.

[Nihilarian]

Swordsage 2 and Swordsage 3 both have the same base Will save.You're missing the point he was trying to make. His statement wasn't in response to the debate over whether to take 2 or 3 levels of swordsage, it was in response to someone claiming that the character's Will save will suck either way because it's a rogue. 3 levels of swordsage give the character +3 to their will save and access to Moment of Perfect Mind, so he's correct.

[Techwarrior]

Except 3 levels of swordsage is a decent step to fixing that problem. Plus, the fact that craven stops working if you ever become immune to fear means you can never get mind blank, or eat a heros feast without losing the benefits, which is pretty lame in my opinion.

So does Iron Will. Unless he's also planning to pump his Wisdom to take advantage if the AC bonus, its still not going to be great.

Now, if he takes Moment of Perfect Mind and/or pumps Wisdom for the AC, then he'll probably have a passable Will save.

Note that I'm not advocating taking Craven since you can't pick up Fear Immunity or Mind Blank, I'm just trying to point out that Rogues are fear crippled either way, unless you take significant strides fixing it. As you said, a Swordsage dip, and the associated build choices that tend to come with it, are one way to fix that. If the OP doesn't go that extra step past taking Swordsage levels, their Will save will still only be below par as opposed to unusable.