How the Gods Voted

[teratorn]

We are only a few hours from the next strip, so I did ask myself if this strip deserved another thread. Probably not, but then again...

If you note in #407 panel 2, 8 of the twelve gods are facing one way, and four of them (rabbit, chicken, monkey, snake) the other way. Does this mean Miko had a 8 vs 4 vote against her? Does any one know what the gods stand for?

(It was either this or a thread on Miko becoming a Dashing Paladin walking invisible aroung the world using PUN EVIL in the name of Banjo.)

[skinkatlarge]

I'm not sure how to vote. I did notice the four facing counter to the rest, and your theory is the most likely explanation, but I don't "think" you're right - I think we'll probably never know. Unless someone on the boards knows of a story from Chinese myth that has them doing the same thing, or I guess if one of the four manifest to Miko to say "tough luck, kid, I was rooting for ya". I don't know if the Gods of the (whichever direction... south?) are all Good, if they usually agree with each other, if one was more in charge of the paladins than others, if Miko worshiped one in particular... We don't know much about how that pantheon works at all.

Maybe Rich will let us into their heads by showing us a god-to-god or god-to-minion conversation, like he does with Thor, but I'm not expecting it.

[PePe QuiCoSE]

i just voted you were right because i also noticed that some gods were facing different directions, but if this has no particular relation with the plot itself (as i suspect it doesn't) i would have voted for Thog :P

[chibibar]

I kinda remember some of the zodiac history about the great race. I know that some animals don't get along with other animals (thus you have your opposites and such) I know there are some animals that are just rebellious. I cannot remember the details. Of course I could ask my grandmother, she is very knowledgable in chinese zodiac, but my chinese is atrocious and she doesn't speak english :(

[teratorn]

i just voted you were right because i also noticed that some gods were facing different directions, but if this has no particular relation with the plot itself (as i suspect it doesn't) i would have voted for Thog :P

If the Giant did it this way it's likely to mean something, the 8 are facing counter-clockwise, that is against. I guess the Giant will never tell, and as you say it's not likely it will be explained in the plot.


I kinda remember some of the zodiac history about the great race. I know that some animals don't get along with other animals (thus you have your opposites and such) I know there are some animals that are just rebellious. I cannot remember the details. Of course I could ask my grandmother, she is very knowledgable in chinese zodiac, but my chinese is atrocious and she doesn't speak english :(

That would be nice.

[eof]

I've been wondering a bit about the 12 gods myself. At first, I thought "by the 12 Gods" was just an expression (similar to "by God!"), but then I realized that Miko has actively been praying to them using that expression---not "praise Dragon, Ox and Rooster" (for instance), but actually "praise the 12 Gods"---and also claimed to be blessed by the 12 Gods (which would indicate all of them, regardless of how cohesive the pantheon might be). Also, all 12 were present in #407 when Miko was stripped of her paladin powers.

So what does that mean? Are they all LG (or at least NG, CG or LN, all of alignments that I imagine might have an interest in sponsoring paladins)? I can hardly see Miko, of all people, pray to a neutral god for guidance, much less to an evil one. (Not at that point in time at least. The future will tell.) Are there no evil gods in this pantheon?

Oh well. The subject at hand: while I'm no expert on Chinese mythology, I recalled having seen images of the Chinese Zodiac before, with animals facing different ways. I did an image search, and came up with (for instance) the following: 1 (http://www.chinatown.com.au/feature/images/260x100/zodiac.jpg), 2 (http://library.thinkquest.org/CR0212700/china/Edited/chinesezodiac.jpg) and 3 (http://china.tourism-asia.net/gifs/chinese-zodiac.jpg). (I also found a fourth that looked good, but it didn't allow direct linking.) The point is that while none of the pictures I found is "canon" by any means, they all had some animals that faced clockwise, and some that faced counterclockwise, typically in ratios 4:8 or 5:7, with no bias which way the majority faced, nor was it the same animals every time. I also found some where all animals faced the same direction.

So my completely uneducated guess is that there is no standard to the facing the animals have. Maybe Rich had a model he worked from with the same facings as in #407. Or maybe there is some deeper meaning to it, but it clearly does not have to be that way, since there doesn't seem to be any standard to deviate from.

[Setra]

I don't know, not really sure, there should be a "None of the above" option.

[Ironfist Orc]

I don't know, not really sure, there should be a "None of the above" option.

As a "Thog" voter, that's how I viewed my (unavailable) choice of, "I don't think it was unanimous, but I'm not sold on 8-4 because of facing."

[teratorn]

I don't know, not really sure, there should be a "None of the above" option.

There were supposed to be only two options, either agreeing with me or being a Thog lover. But I knew I would surely lose and decided to split the votes against.

[Aslaug]

There can be only one...Thog!

[Solara]

Maybe the four facing the opposite way were Chaotic Good and just doing it to be different.

Either way, I can't see any of gods, whether lawful, neutral, or chaotic, being able to ignore Miko commiting an Evil act. (and it was Evil no matter what her intentions were - paladins don't get a free pass on a plead of insanity or ignorance)

I think it's a given that all of them are Good, by the way, because Miko always prays to all twelve, and I'm sure the other paladins do too.

[teratorn]

Either way, I can't see any of gods, whether lawful, neutral, or chaotic, being able to ignore Miko commiting an Evil act.
Some of them may have decided to ignore Shojo's death because he broke an oath made in their name.

I just find weird that something as important as being back to back or face to face or face to butt is taken randomly in this kind of representation.

[chibibar]

I can assure you that in the real world Chinese zodiac they are not all LG :)

I remember a bit about the great race in which god allow all animals to participate and the first 12 will become zodiacs. The rat being small wanted a free ride on the horse but the horse wouldn't allow it, and the rat ask the ox, the ox didn't mind and lumber on. The ox came in second place because it was tireless unlike the other animal (remember the bunny and the turtle?) anyways the rat got 1st place because it napped and rest on the ox and jump to the finish line before the ox cross it.

I don't think that is very LG do you?

[Baxter Konrad]

That depends... are any of the following Non-Lawful or Non-Good?

Asking for help.
Using your brains.
Winning.
Not breaking a rule.


You said it was a race... you didn't say what the rules were. If the rules state "first twelve across the line get to be Zodiacs", then I see nothing wrong with hitching a lift off a friend as the Rat did; after all, he did ask if he was allowed to ride on his fellow's back.

[chibibar]

That depends... are any of the following Non-Lawful or Non-Good?

Asking for help.
Using your brains.
Winning.
Not breaking a rule.


You said it was a race... you didn't say what the rules were. If the rules state "first twelve across the line get to be Zodiacs", then I see nothing wrong with hitching a lift off a friend as the Rat did; after all, he did ask if he was allowed to ride on his fellow's back.

that is the thing. I cannot find the english version of it. I remember my grandmother told me the story long time ago. I only remember the ox part cause that is my animal sign.

[kyrin]

Here's Wikipedia's take on it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Zodiac#Origin_stories

Make of it what you will.

JIM
aka kyrin

[LVL 10 Rouge]

It seems to me that the direction they are facing would have no link with the way they voted. I think that if one of the gods didn't agree with the decision to remove Miko's powers then he or she would simply not decend. It is for this reason that I feel the decison was 12-0. But I guess the 12 gods could work under a majority rules system. We may never know, unless the giant tells us.

[chibibar]

Here's Wikipedia's take on it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Zodiac#Origin_stories

Make of it what you will.

JIM
aka kyrin

heh.. its a bit different than I remember it but it will work :)

[SteveMB]

There were supposed to be only two options, either agreeing with me or being a Thog lover.
"If you don't stand behind me, Thog wins."

[TinSoldier]

I think the ones who voted against it were probably more pragmatic about the situation--maybe they believed that taking Miko's powers away at this moment was dangerous because of the lich and his huge hobgoblin and undead army marching on the city.

[The Familiar]

I didn't see the direction of their facing as how they voted; I saw it as the aesthetics of balance, myself.

The four cardinal compass gods (Dragon, Sheep, Dog, Ox) are all facing counter-clockwise, yet balance each other (up/down, right/left looking) when in a ring.

The gods of the upper half of the ring (Tiger, Rabbit, Snake, Horse) are in a counterclockwise/clockwise pattern that mirrors itself (becomes opposite) on Dragon (i.e. counter/clockwise-Dragon-clockwise/counter); The gods in the lower half of the ring (Monkey, Rooster, Pig, Rat) are in a clockwise/counterclockwise pattern that mirrors itself on Dog (clockwise/clockwise-Dog-counter/counter).

The whole thing reminded me of the concept of Yin/Yang (the symbol of equal opposites in harmony): the pattern of facing in the upper part of the ring isn't better/worse than that of the lower half--just different--with the whole in balance.

[The_Weirdo]

I think the ones who voted against it were probably more pragmatic about the situation--maybe they believed that taking Miko's powers away at this moment was dangerous because of the lich and his huge hobgoblin and undead army marching on the city.


Or the opposite - they knew they couldn't afford to lose, for instance, the OOTS, and they prevented a raging maniac that would STILL think herself right from going on the rampage.

[TinSoldier]

Or the opposite - they knew they couldn't afford to lose, for instance, the OOTS, and they prevented a raging maniac that would STILL think herself right from going on the rampage.So, the gods who may have voted against Miko losing her powers thought that?

What?

[Doglord]

Me love thog!

[The_Weirdo]

So, the gods who may have voted against Miko losing her powers thought that?

What?

You assume there were any. I meant that the practical ones could have voted FOR Miko losing her powers.

It depends on the god. Ox, for instance, might have voted so due to its "zodiacal" patience, for instance.

[silvadel]

I was taking a longer look at the faces of the animals on each side -- and maybe -- just maybe -- the OP is right. I voted the other way but looking at it really closely -- maybe.

[TinSoldier]

Your arguments are losing me, The_Weirdo. Can you explain?

I said this, assuming that the Gods' votes were split (which is what I voted):

I think the ones who voted against it were probably more pragmatic about the situation--maybe they believed that taking Miko's powers away at this moment was dangerous because of the lich and his huge hobgoblin and undead army marching on the city.

Then you said this:

Or the opposite - they knew they couldn't afford to lose, for instance, the OOTS, and they prevented a raging maniac that would STILL think herself right from going on the rampage.Which sounds more like the reasoning some of the gods who voted for Miko losing her abilities.


You assume there were any. I meant that the practical ones could have voted FOR Miko losing her powers.

It depends on the god. Ox, for instance, might have voted so due to its "zodiacal" patience, for instance.Okay, I see now (after writing this up).

I didn't mean "the practical gods" voted against her losing her powers, I meant that the gods who voted against her losing her powers decided that way for practical reasons. I'm really not familiar with the meaning of each god (and I don't feel like looking it up at the moment).

The gods all have an interest in the Snarl not being released.

[Paramajic]

Nah, they just took positions that would place there good side toward the 4th wall, that's all.

[Abal Tovtin]

Yay for :thog: !

I hope he gets out of jail and joins the OOTS!

[The Familiar]

Nah, they just took positions that would place their good side toward the 4th wall, that's all.

:smallbiggrin: You win the thread.

[Holy_Knight]

Here's one more possibility: Based on the way they're turned, some of the gods are facing each other. Perhaps this indicates that they're conferring, before making the decision to remove Miko's powers.

[Haruki-kun]

I don't know.....I didn't think the gods would "vote"............so I just assumed it was unanimous (how do you spell that?)