Action Economy: Can even breaking that make non-casters start to "catch up?"

[Segev]

Probably not, given Celerity et al, but still, a thought occurred to me about the nature of fighters, rogues, et al, and the eternal debate about what they could possibly be given to help them get a leg up without stepping into either "anime wannabe" territory or "but that's magic!" territory. And the latest thought I've had is this: actions.

We already see it to a degree in the way BAB leads to more attacks on a full attack. But that falls a little flat for a few reasons, not the least of which being that technically everybody gets BAB to some extent. (The others extend from here to the horizon and are left as an exercise to the reader to determine.)

So, then. We know that Swift actions have become one of the more valuable types, but that having more actions is, in general, a very powerful thing. So, I propose the following added class features. These are only for the Fighter and Rogue right now; further expansion to other classes that "need help" can be discussed after determining if there is balance to be found in this.

Fighter

Extra Action (Ex): Fighters train to optimize their motions and exert their bodies to the utmost, gaining the ability to act meaningfully more quickly and frequently than lesser-trained individuals. At third level, he rolls initiative twice, and may choose to act on either initiative tick he has rolled. At 5th level, on whichever initiative tick he did not choose to take his normal round's worth of actions, he may take an extra action. This extra action must be a swift action. At level 11, his options for this extra action expand to include move actions. By level 15, he may use his extra action for a swift, move, or standard action, and at level 20, the fighter is able to take a full round's worth of actions on each of his initiatives.

Rogue

Special Ability - Extra Swift Action (Ex): A rogue may learn this at any time he can pick up a new Special Ability due to his rogue class levels. The rogue is quick and nimble in mind and body, and gains an extra swift action each round. He may take this special ability multiple times; each time he does, he gains another swift action each round.

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These are deliberately hidden behind 5 and 10 levels of non-caster classes, in order to make them at least somewhat unattractive to casters.

So, how badly do these break things? Would a caster get ahold of them more usefully than a non-? Any other thoughts or comments?

[Artillery]

Give mundanes their own (ex) version of Hustle letting them turn a swift action into a move action.

Aka free Travel Devotion for mostly mundane characters. Have it be based on the level in that class and their BAB. Don't let people have it till they have an iterative. So level 6 for fighter and 8 for rogue, monk, etc.

Level 6+ full BAB character without casting. They can turn a swift action into a move action BAB times a day.

Only BAB from non-casting classes counts, no prestige class work arounds.

If a caster wants it, it would cost 6-8 levels of non-casting classes.

[Twilightwyrm]

This is an interesting idea, and one I think would indeed be interesting.
Unfortunately, while Rogues have some things to do as a Swift Action, these are not usually effective enough to jump them up in terms of overall power just from additional swift actions alone. Even more move actions could theoretically help, but outside of Rogues that dip Swordsage (ironic, since Swordsage is what you were trying to avoid), there won't be much to do with their new swift actions.

[OldTrees1]

Extra actions are a power multiplier. They can boost across quantitative tier boundaries (Tier 6 to Tier 5 to Tier 4) but not qualitative tier boundaries (Tier 4 to Tier 3 to Tier 2 to Tier 1).

[CyberThread]

Ex factotum

[OldTrees1]

Ex factotum

I thought Factotum was Tier 3 for its skills and casting.

[tyckspoon]

This is an interesting idea, and one I think would indeed be interesting.
Unfortunately, while Rogues have some things to do as a Swift Action, these are not usually effective enough to jump them up in terms of overall power just from additional swift actions alone. Even more move actions could theoretically help, but outside of Rogues that dip Swordsage (ironic, since Swordsage is what you were trying to avoid), there won't be much to do with their new swift actions.

This all over. Extra actions are good, but they don't mean much if you don't have anything useful to do with them. If you are going to make extra Swift actions an inherent part of classes, you should also provide them with methods to make use of them. Otherwise, you're left with having to pay for use of your shiny new class feature, either in GP for Swift-using items or in levels to take classes that *do* have Swift options.

[CyberThread]

I thought Factotum was Tier 3 for its skills and casting.

They also break the action system heavily and often.

[Zweisteine]

A few comments:

1. This is an interesting idea, and has some potential, but for one problem: it's variety that keeps the wizard so far ahead. A fighter with extra actions just gets to hit things twice in a round. A wizard can still teleport, summon mini-fighters, do mind control, and instant-kill enemies.

2. Rogues might want ore than a swift action, as their use for that will often be limited to magic item activation. Perhaps a move action. (Actually, they did something like this in D&D Next, which I find to be the primary selling point of the rogue in that edition.)

3. Each point in the initiative order is called an "initiative count," not a "tick."

[Segev]

Good point on the terminology; I'll correct it to "initiative count" later (and strive to use it from here on out even if I forget to go back and edit).

I agree that there also need to be interesting things to do with the extra actions. As a starting point, I just wanted to see if it had any consequences I wasn't seeing or if it was "enough" on its own. I am unsurprised that it does not seem to be.

I will say that, while it is "paying to use" their swift actions, the number of magic items in the MIC which are swift activated that could be very...interesting...used in combination seems to me to be worth having the ability all on their own. Yes, it's "paying to use" the swift actions, but the fact that they might get potential effect out of them beyond what another character - even the one who made the item in the first place - could hope to might be its own game-changer.

Heck, if there were a spell that gave the target new things to do with swift actions, and the Fighter and Rogue are the only ones with extra swift actions, I would argue that even if they're "dependent" on the caster for that spell, it is something that makes them stand out nicely where casters can't out-shine them alone. It's a reason the caster might want to have them around rather than a summoned angel or the like (of course, assuming the summoned thingies aren't given all the melees' nice new toys).

[HaikenEdge]

I don't think giving fighters extra actions will boost them any; being able to hit something more often doesn't really take the fighter past their current tier because, that's still all they can do; anything they gain from other party members is incidental, because it doesn't make them any more useful as characters, particularly when classes like RKV can convert turn attempts to swift actions anyways, but mostly because, if it requires an extra swift action for the caster to use, then the caster is probably going to find a better option to begin with.

That's to say, sure, the fighter might be able to benefit from said spell, but the Wizard is going to find a better spell to use that won't be dependent on the Fighter, who is simply very vulnerable to other things anyways.

[NotAnAardvark]

Being able to buzzsaw through encounters with more actions would be awesome, but your fighter is still hamstrung by that insane 2+int and lack of utility features.