Nightwing Vs Black Widow

[GeekGirl]

Hello everyone. A few friends and I were discussing this earlier and came to a split decision.

This is a random encounter on the rooftops of Gotham. These 2 begin 100 feet apart on opposing rooftops of adjacent 20 story office buildings. Morals are on, Natasha has twin desert eagles w/1 clip each and her Widow's Bite. Nightwing has his standard equipment.

So comic fans, what do you all say? Personally I think Nightwing takes the fight. But who knows!

[Ramza00]

In real life guns kill.

In a world presented in comics guns rarely hit their mark, all you need is a distraction such as a smoke bomb (which nightwing will probably have). Once smoke has filled the rooftop, Black Widow is not going to have a very good chance of hiting anything with her guns. If Nightwing utility belt allows him a way to see through the smoke he will have a definite advantage.

[Tanuki Tales]

On one hand, Natasha is a Russian super soldier who could give any of Marvel's top martial artists a good fight (and probably Batman too).

On the other hand, **** has handed Deathstroke his rear, something Batman couldn't do in a fair fight.

Hm...

More research is required.

[comicshorse]

In real life guns kill.



But would she use guns ? I thought guns were just for the movie version the comic version uses her 'Widow's stings'.

That said this is a superhero so they're probably better than guns



More research is required.

Don't forget to take into account Richard (damn filters) has a weaknesses for red haired women

[Chen]

Hello everyone. A few friends and I were discussing this earlier and came to a split decision.

This is a random encounter on the rooftops of Gotham. These 2 begin 100 feet apart on opposing rooftops of adjacent 20 story office buildings. Morals are on, Natasha has twin desert eagles w/1 clip each and her Widow's Bite. Nightwing has his standard equipment.

So comic fans, what do you all say? Personally I think Nightwing takes the fight. But who knows!

Is dual wielding desert eagles one of her powers? Because for a normal (peak) human that seems highly ineffective. Are we also assuming immediate aggression on both their parts? Do they know each other?

[Cheesegear]

Morals are on, Natasha has twin desert eagles w/1 clip each and her Widow's Bite. Nightwing has his standard equipment.

Natasha is a Russian Super Soldier, nearly on par with Steve Rogers himself. However, Deathstroke has taken the DC version of the serum as well, and Nightwing has beaten him a few times (however Deathstroke has beaten Nightwing several times more).

However, the big one, is Morals. Nightwing wont kill. Black Widow, will. Nightwing will hold back. Natasha has guns - with super-serum reflexes.

[Fan]

Natasha is a Russian Super Soldier, nearly on par with Steve Rogers himself. However, Deathstroke has taken the DC version of the serum as well, and Nightwing has beaten him a few times (however Deathstroke has beaten Nightwing several times more).

However, the big one, is Morals. Nightwing wont kill. Black Widow, will. Nightwing will hold back. Natasha has guns - with super-serum reflexes.

This is pretty much it right here.

Nightwing wont snipe Natasha from miles away, Natasha will call in a nuke from orbit to kill **** if need be.

[Avilan the Grey]

This is pretty much it right here.

Nightwing wont snipe Natasha from miles away, Natasha will call in a nuke from orbit to kill **** if need be.

Come on, we both know they will exchange blows for half the comic and then end up kissing or more at the end. :smallbiggrin:

But yes, if they really had to fight, she would win. Mostly because she's not a vigilante, she's a government (well SHIELD) agent. Her job description is to kill people.


Now I want to see:
Taskmaster vs Deathstroke
Deadpool vs Lady Shiva
Wonder Woman vs Marvel!Hercules
Moon Knight vs Batman
Daredevil vs Nightwing
She-Hulk vs Big Barda
Dr Doom vs Lex Luthor

and many many more.

[Cheesegear]

Come on, we both know they will exchange blows for half the comic and then end up kissing or more at the end. :smallbiggrin:

Given Nightwing's record, that would fully be in character...But, then afterwards, Black Widow would do what she's named for, and still win the fight...It would just take longer. :smallwink:

[Tanuki Tales]

Now I want to see:
Taskmaster vs Deathstroke
Deadpool vs Lady Shiva
Wonder Woman vs Marvel!Hercules
Moon Knight vs Batman
Daredevil vs Nightwing
She-Hulk vs Big Barda
Dr Doom vs Lex Luthor

and many many more.

Deathstroke
Shiva if Deadpool isn't serious and she is informed about him.
Close call, but I'd edge it to Wonder Woman
Batman
Another somewhat close one, I'd edge it to Daredevil if Nightwing is unaware of what Matt can do.
I might give it to She-Hulk if we're talking 100 tons Jenn. Her healing factor is also a big edge, but she's screwed if Barda has decent New God weaponry and tech.
Doom

[Hyena]

Doom

But what if we are talking about President Luthor?

[Tanuki Tales]

But what if we are talking about President Luthor?

When Luthor has pulled off Mini-Thanos shenanigans, we'll talk.

[Hyena]

Well, he did beat the entire Justice League without breaking a sweat after fusing with Brainiac in the tv show.

[BRC]

Come on, we both know they will exchange blows for half the comic and then end up kissing or more at the end. :smallbiggrin:

But yes, if they really had to fight, she would win. Mostly because she's not a vigilante, she's a government (well SHIELD) agent. Her job description is to kill people.


I think, in the comics anyway, she's an Avenger, not a SHIELD agent.
That said, she Is a mostly-former assassin (Her awesome new solo-series is her doing some assassinating on the side, only taking evil targets, and using the money to help the people she hurt in her old days), and would certainly be willing to kill if need be. She's probably the most ruthless of the "Core" avengers.

That said, I wouldn't say "LOL GUNS!". If we're looking at the characters as they are in comics, Nightwing has gone up against people armed with guns who were perfectly willing to kill him before, some of them being quite skilled marksmen. If we discount that because "Comic Books" then we're basically discounting Nightwing, and turning the fight into An Acrobat Martial Artist vs An Assassin With A Gun.

[Tanuki Tales]

Well, he did beat the entire Justice League without breaking a sweat after fusing with Brainiac in the tv show.

Which isn't really comparable to stealing Galactus' power, stealing the Beyonder's power, nearly punking Classic Strange, creating House of M Scarlet Witch, etc.

[Raimun]

Here's an idea. Instead of endlessly debating this, just have them fight each other.

Nightwing (http://www.atomicthinktank.com/viewtopic.php?p=279260#p279260)

Black Widow (http://www.atomicthinktank.com/viewtopic.php?p=511717#p511717)

Looks like Nightwing has the advantage, even if I'm loathe to admit it. Still, it could go either way, depending on the tactics used and how well they roll.

[Tanuki Tales]

Here's an idea. Instead of endlessly debating this, just have them fight each other.

Nightwing (http://www.atomicthinktank.com/viewtopic.php?p=279260#p279260)

Black Widow (http://www.atomicthinktank.com/viewtopic.php?p=511717#p511717)

Looks like Nightwing has the advantage, even if I'm loathe to admit it. Still, it could go either way, depending on the tactics used and how well they roll.

Are you serious? :smallconfused:

[Ramza00]

When Luthor has pulled off Mini-Thanos shenanigans, we'll talk.

Luthor at his most competentlywritten, combing all three types of personalities he has been used as, mad scientist, brilliant businessman, savvy politician could be a threat to Doom.

Luthor though is written as a foil to superman, he doesn't need to be smashing superman's face in to be a villain. No he just needs to be a threat to superman's friends, family, and ideals. Sometimes that means a conspiracy, sometimes that means sponsoring a minor villain (such as intergang), sometimes that means a world busting threat. You don't need Luthor to be consistently at the same power level if you are going to vary on the ways he attacks Superman.

Dr Doom on the other hand is always written as a top tier villian, where you need a team of heros to stop him for he is threatening countries, worlds, or even multiple galaxies.

I give the fight personally to Doom, but of all the vs parings posted by Avilan the Grey this was the only one I would really really want to watch.

[Tanuki Tales]

Well, if we're...no, not even composite Luthor.

Luthor has the habit of being one-upped by varying DC cosmic characters (Brainiac, Darkseid, Maggedon, etc.) unless the story needs him to "save the day". He's less intelligent than Batman, unless Batman isn't turning his full attention against Lex, and nowhere near the kind of manipulator that some villains (like Ra's al Ghul) can be.

I just don't see him as a combatant for a competently portrayed Doom.

[Raimun]

Are you serious? :smallconfused:

Yeah.

I just thought about this for the first time but I already favor this to an endless "yes-no-yes-no"-debate.

Besides, that guy makes pretty accurate Marvel and DC-characters for M&M, a level and objective playing field.

[Tanuki Tales]

Yeah.

I just thought about this for the first time but I already favor this to an endless "yes-no-yes-no"-debate.

Besides, that guy makes pretty accurate Marvel and DC-characters for M&M.

Why...do you think anyone would ever use someone's RPG builds to make judgements in hypothetical fictional combat scenarios over the combatants actual history and feats? :smallconfused:

[Raimun]

Why...do you think anyone would ever use someone's RPG builds to make judgements in hypothetical fictional combat scenarios over the combatants actual history and feats? :smallconfused:

It's clearly the superior alternative to traditional versus-thread debate.

[Tanuki Tales]

It's clearly the superior alternative to traditional versus-thread debate.

No. No it really isn't.

I'm not going to take someone's bias building of a facsimile of an actual character in the confines of an RPG's ruleset over the actual feats and showings they've performed. That way lays madness.

[Metahuman1]

Didn't Lex have the Anti Life Equation and the Orange Lantern Ring at separate points? Gotta count for something.


Also, here's the thing, Desert Eagle, assuming the Iconic one that everyone's heard of, (the .50 Caliber one.), holds 7 rounds in the magazine and 1 in the chamber for a total of 8. And we've specified she doesn't have extra mags.

So, she's got 16 shots, total. And unless she specifically knows all of Nightwings capability's up front, I find it unlikely that she'll be able to drop him in 16 shots. Between the assorted things Nightwing has to help with cover, body armor, acrobatics, so on.

So, the Guns are not as much of a factor as you would think.





That said, here's a novel possibility, Nightwings Charming, known as a ladies man, and has a soft spot for badass redheads. And Natasha's got a thing for Badasses herself given that she's dated the likes of Mat Mardock and Bucky Barns. So, who's to say they don't trade blows and quips for a little bit and end up making out and making arraignments to do this every other Tuesday?

[Dusk Eclipse]

I'm not sure about the Anti-life equation, but Luthor was a deputhy Orange Lantern during Blackest night.

[Tiki Snakes]

Why...do you think anyone would ever use someone's RPG builds to make judgements in hypothetical fictional combat scenarios over the combatants actual history and feats? :smallconfused:


No. No it really isn't.

I'm not going to take someone's bias building of a facsimile of an actual character in the confines of an RPG's ruleset over the actual feats and showings they've performed. That way lays madness.

Eh, it's pretty arbitrary. However, showings and feats are so inconsistent for most character's as to be meaningless anyway, see for reference the endless lowballing/highballing rows we see so much of.

Going by something like this, where a knowledgable third party has put together something to represent both characters for an unrelated reason? Well, it's a novel alternative and that's all that matters really. Hell, maybe someone should start a thread in the RP section and they can have it out in character? :smallwink:

[Tanuki Tales]

I'm not sure about the Anti-life equation, but Luthor was a deputhy Orange Lantern during Blackest night.

I think the ALE thing is from animated Luthor. And yeah, he was just chosen to be an Orange Lantern; it had nothing to actively do on Luthor's part.


Eh, it's pretty arbitrary. However, showings and feats are so inconsistent for most character's as to be meaningless anyway,

Only for people who try to debate from what they "feel it should be".

Edit:

Basically, this line of thinking is going in the direction of either "I shot you, no I shot you!" or "Gandalf was a 6th level character" nonsense.

[Tiki Snakes]

Only for people who try to debate from what they "feel it should be".

The simple fact of the matter is that the average superheroic character will inevitably over their life be portrayed at wildly different levels of power and competency, simply because they must first serve the needs of the story and secondly because they will be written by so many different writers with different opinions of what they should be able to do. You can attempt to discern the "true" power of a character using things they have been shown to do, but for most characters there's no consistent gauge behind the scenes and that's why there will be so many counter-examples to contend with.

Going from feats displayed is an inherently selective process and no less arbitrary than anything else. It works within reason, it certainly establishes potential upper boundaries, but beyond that, it's of questionable meaning or importance no matter how vocally people may support the method.

[Tanuki Tales]

Going from feats displayed is an inherently selective process and no less arbitrary than anything else. It works within reason, it certainly establishes potential upper boundaries, but beyond that, it's of questionable meaning or importance no matter how vocally people may support the method.

I only hear this kind of argument from people who are very vocal against and don't accept the paradigm.

Which also tend to be from sites that aren't dedicated to the practice of debating versus fights.

[The Glyphstone]

I only hear this kind of argument from people who are very vocal against and don't accept the paradigm.

Which also tend to be from sites that aren't dedicated to the practice of debating versus fights.

Which is great, and works fine for them and those sites. But that's also community-specific, so why should another community or site be forced to arbitrarily conform to that outside standard of 'paradigm'.

That's what some people don't seem to get around here...they come from those dedicated Vs. sites, they think like those people do. Most people here think differently when it comes to stuff like X v. Y, they haven't been indoctrinated in the group-think "acceptable procedure" that said dedicated sites ironed out by necessity. But the Vs.-site natives have been taught there is one objectively superior (aka 'fair') way to match characters against each other, and get frustrated whenever they end up debating people who don't take it so seriously or just see it through a different prism.

[Tanuki Tales]

Which is great, and works fine for them and those sites. But that's also community-specific, so why should another community or site be forced to arbitrarily conform to that outside standard of 'paradigm'.

That's what some people don't seem to get around here...they come from those dedicated Vs. sites, they think like those people do. Most people here think differently when it comes to stuff like X v. Y, they haven't been indoctrinated in the group-think "acceptable procedure" that said dedicated sites ironed out by necessity. But the Vs.-site natives have been taught there is one objectively superior (aka 'fair') way to match characters against each other, and get frustrated whenever they end up debating people who don't take it so seriously or just see it through a different prism.


I don't think I like the use of the word indoctrinated or arbitrarily.

And another community would conform if it wants to cut down on charged drama and antagonism. It doesn't need to, because it's their right to not to. But they'll either conform to cut down on the warfare between the factions, they won't and the clashes will continue and fill up pages and pages with the same arguing or they'll drive out those who don't conform to their way of thinking and will ultimately return to being their own self-contained environments that run counter to how the other communities work...until new immigrants show up.

Edit:

I mean, why does that community think it knows better in this regard when it is concerning a topic they're not dedicated to? It worked for them when they were self-contained, but it only serves to alienate everyone involved when people who decided those methods were non-conducive to the exercise come over from sites that are dedicated to that topic.

[The Glyphstone]

I don't think I like the use of the word indoctrinated or arbitrarily.

And another community would conform if it wants to cut down on charged drama and antagonism. It doesn't need to, because it's their right to not to. But they'll either conform to cut down on the warfare between the factions, they won't and the clashes will continue and fill up pages and pages with the same arguing or they'll drive out those who don't conform to their way of thinking and will ultimately return to being their own self-contained environments that run counter to how the other communities work...until new immigrants show up.

Edit:

I mean, why does that community think it knows better in this regard when it is concerning a topic they're not dedicated to? It worked for them when they were self-contained, but it only serves to alienate everyone involved when people who decided those methods were non-conducive to the exercise come over from sites that are dedicated to that topic.

I know you're weighing in on the pro-Vs.-site angle here...but look at your post from an objective angle, and it can be legitimately interpreted as supporting both sides here (it's just as reasonable to expect the immigrants to conform to the local community as it is for the community to conform to the imported standards). The alienation is created by the people, whether local or imported, who insist that theirs is The One True Way That Must Be Followed, and either 'shun the outsiders', or come in crusading to 'convert the unbelievers' to How It Should Be Done. That, as you pointed out, solves nothing.

In other words...if it works, don't fix it. If it works for other people, don't fix them.

[Tanuki Tales]

I know you're weighing in on the pro-Vs.-site angle here...but look at your post from an objective angle, and it can be legitimately interpreted as supporting both sides here (it's just as reasonable to expect the immigrants to conform to the local community as it is for the community to conform to the imported standards). The alienation is created by the people, whether local or imported, who insist that theirs is The One True Way That Must Be Followed, and either 'shun the outsiders', or come in crusading to 'convert the unbelievers' to How It Should Be Done. That, as you pointed out, solves nothing.

In other words...if it works, don't fix it. If it works for other people, don't fix them.

I'm trying to not be an *******, so I am purposely trying to word it that way.

[The Glyphstone]

I'm trying to not be an *******, so I am purposely trying to word it that way.

Fair enough. I wasn't sure if that was intentional, so at least we're in agreement on that point.

[Cheesegear]

So, who's to say they don't trade blows and quips for a little bit and end up making out and making arraignments to do this every other Tuesday?

As I said earlier, if Black Widow is doing her 'thing', that ends up with Nightwing's mysterious death on Wednesday morning.

Tim Drake on the other hand, would punch her in the mouth and run. But, he's smarter than Grayson.

[comicshorse]

As I said earlier, if Black Widow is doing her 'thing', that ends up with Nightwing's mysterious death on Wednesday morning.


" Then why did they bury him on sunday"
" It took three days for the mortician to get the smile off his face"

Thank you I'll be here all week

[Metahuman1]

As I said earlier, if Black Widow is doing her 'thing', that ends up with Nightwing's mysterious death on Wednesday morning.

Tim Drake on the other hand, would punch her in the mouth and run. But, he's smarter than Grayson.

That assumes she's hacked off at him. If you look at her dating history, she tends to run with guys who do the hero thing in some fashion, including street level unaffiliated or official Vigilantes.

And Nightwing would very much be her type.


Tim Drake and Damian Wayne would have boobie trapped the roof she's on to taze the entire roof and everything on it, AND pump out knock out gas, at the touch of a button, and would do that. But that's neither here nor there.

[Tanuki Tales]

Tim Drake and Damian Wayne would have boobie trapped the roof she's on to taze the entire roof and everything on it, AND pump out knock out gas, at the touch of a button, and would do that. But that's neither here nor there.

It's also arguable if it'd work if they didn't calibrate it to her super soldier physiology.

[Metahuman1]

It's Tim Drake and Damian Wayne, why wouldn't they have it rigged up to auto up the anti if normal human levels don't drop her instantly? Come on, Between Killer Croc, Deathstroke, Bane, Freeze and Ivy there fighting low level supers at least once every other month anyway.

[Cheesegear]

Between Killer Croc, Deathstroke, Bane, Freeze and Ivy

The thing that upsets me, here, is that you think Killer Croc is in the same league as the rest.

[Tanuki Tales]

The thing that upsets me, here, is that you think Killer Croc is in the same league as the rest.

Croc depends really. When he's sufficiently mutated, he could get wins over non-Venom using, non-prepared Bane.

He has no business being compared to Deathstroke, Freeze or Ivy though.

And Meta, I said with the caveat that they need to prepare for her physiology.

Edit:

Ivy is the heaviest hitter on that list, by the by.

[Avilan the Grey]

Croc depends really. When he's sufficiently mutated, he could get wins over non-Venom using, non-prepared Bane.

He has no business being compared to Deathstroke, Freeze or Ivy though.

And Meta, I said with the caveat that they need to prepare for her physiology.

Edit:

Ivy is the heaviest hitter on that list, by the by.

Not only that, but Croc, back when he was first introduced and not really mutated at all, WAS a "proto-Bane".

[Fan]

Which is great, and works fine for them and those sites. But that's also community-specific, so why should another community or site be forced to arbitrarily conform to that outside standard of 'paradigm'.

That's what some people don't seem to get around here...they come from those dedicated Vs. sites, they think like those people do. Most people here think differently when it comes to stuff like X v. Y, they haven't been indoctrinated in the group-think "acceptable procedure" that said dedicated sites ironed out by necessity. But the Vs.-site natives have been taught there is one objectively superior (aka 'fair') way to match characters against each other, and get frustrated whenever they end up debating people who don't take it so seriously or just see it through a different prism.

The only way I've used it is to take each character at their best across all metrics without one time power ups or using alternate / non canon versions.

I don't see how you could ask for anything else and expect it to be taken seriously. I personally wouldn't take anything that openly ignores a character's best in canon showings in favor of their lowest as anything other than someone's bias showing really hard.

And RPG character sheets in M&M are far from objective, the third party has his own selection biases and favoritism that he's allowed to apply freely within the confines of an RPG character creation system, it is by no means supported by DC Comics, nor is any of it canon therefore it can be entirely disregarded.

[Metahuman1]

The thing that upsets me, here, is that you think Killer Croc is in the same league as the rest.



Counter point. He's depicted as low end of super human as often as not. If he bothers you by being there sub him out with man bat. The point was to just find a list of more then humans who Drake and Damian fight regularly.

And given the range of that list, of couse they'ed make there stuff adjustable as often as possible.

[Fan]

Counter point. He's depicted as low end of super human as often as not. If he bothers you by being there sub him out with man bat. The point was to just find a list of more then humans who Drake and Damian fight regularly.

And given the range of that list, of couse they'ed make there stuff adjustable as often as possible.

Except none of their stuff is adjustable, they just bring either the super knock out gas, or the regular knock out gas that the villain uses as a smoke screen to walk up behind them and hit them in the head.

Happens all the time.

[Anteros]

Except none of their stuff is adjustable, they just bring either the super knock out gas, or the regular knock out gas that the villain uses as a smoke screen to walk up behind them and hit them in the head.

Happens all the time.

Oh, but Fan...didn't you just say that we're only taking characters at their peak? So clearly they would be fully prepared, with all their best gear, etc...and taking into account things that "happen all the time" is completely irrelevant.

At least according to your rules that we take only the "best" possible variation of a character instead of their general interpretation.

[Tanuki Tales]

Oh, but Fan...didn't you just say that we're only taking characters at their peak? So clearly they would be fully prepared, with all their best gear, etc...and taking into account things that "happen all the time" is completely irrelevant.

At least according to your rules that we take only the "best" possible variation of a character instead of their general interpretation.

You're making a false comparison. Gear and prep time are completely divested from a character's power set, unless they're someone like The Engineer or Blue Beetle.

What they can with prep time and what gear they can potentially bring to bear is an entirely different animal though.

[Anteros]

You're making a false comparison. Gear and prep time are completely divested from a character's power set, unless they're someone like The Engineer or Blue Beetle.

What they can with prep time and what gear they can potentially bring to bear is an entirely different animal though.

I'm sorry, but no. You can't logically say that gear is divested from a character's power-set when they canonically depend on that gear all the time. Nightwing may not be as dependent on their gear as someone like Iron Man, but it's still very much a part of his character and power set, and if you want to take him at his peak that has to include his best possible gear.

Of course, it's faaaaaaaar more logical to dismiss outliers and take characters as they're commonly depicted, but no one ever wants to do that in vs threads because it means they have to dismiss the time that "their guy" bench pressed a planet even though he can normally barely pick up a truck.

It makes sense to take characters at their maximums when they come from a coherent, fairly consistent source. For something like comic books where a single character may have had 100s of different writers over the years and wildly variant power levels it's absolutely ridiculous to use outliers as a measuring standard.

[Fan]

I'm sorry, but no. You can't logically say that gear is divested from a character's power-set when they canonically depend on that gear all the time. Nightwing may not be as dependent on their gear as someone like Iron Man, but it's still very much a part of his character and power set, and if you want to take him at his peak that has to include his best possible gear.

Of course, it's faaaaaaaar more logical to dismiss outliers and take characters as they're commonly depicted, but no one ever wants to do that in vs threads because it means they have to dismiss the time that "their guy" bench pressed a planet even though he can normally barely pick up a truck.

It makes sense to take characters at their maximums when they come from a coherent, fairly consistent source. For something like comic books where a single character may have had 100s of different writers over the years and wildly variant power levels it's absolutely ridiculous to use outliers as a measuring standard.

That's why the character is divided into eras.

Post Crisis, Pre Crisis, and New 52. Within those eras they are generally consistent, though as with anything with a long publication history there are outliers. (Which is why we ignore Superman absorbing the galaxy destroying Anti Sun bomb, pulling the Maggeddon device which has greater mass than a star, etc. Those are his outliers because they aren't supported anywhere else.)

Also prep time and gear are seperated because those characters wouldn't normally bring tailored gear to a fight against an opponent they know nothing about. Traditionally, when someone says they want someone like say, Superman, at his peak throughout his Post Crisis run they don't include things like Superman's Warsuit which gives him immunity to kryptonite, red sun radiation, and multiples his stats. Nor do they include sundipping in spite of those things that would be possible for him to do in said fight or things he'd be able to retrieve with his speed.


I have never used outlier feats, and no one here has either. When something is represented multiple times across multiple story lines it stops being an outlier, even if the character is sometimes made to forget they have that power for plot, or made to job to a normally much weaker character. That is called an "outlier", when like, Captain America beats Thor it's considered an outlier and should be ignored because Thor cracks planets in his comics, and fights on the surface of stars, whereas Steve Rogers can't even lift a tank over his head throughout his entire publication series.

Giving people without powers or abilities that allow them to know about their opponent knowledge without giving the other side knowledge is what's called bias, and it's not fair to give that to one side and not the other.

[lord_khaine]

Tim Drake on the other hand, would punch her in the mouth and run. But, he's smarter than Grayson.

Really..? :smallconfused:

It was Greyson who were Batmans personal pick to lead the backup league though :smalltongue:

[Cheesegear]

It was Greyson who were Batmans personal pick to lead the backup league though :smalltongue:

I said 'smarter', not 'has better leadership qualities and personal charisma'.

Grayson is charismatic.
Jason is psychotic.
Tim is smart.
Damien is ruthless.

Together they make Batman.

[Moak]

And now I'm stuck imagining all the robin with a ring saying "By our power combined, we are Capitan Batman!" :smallbiggrin:

[comicshorse]

I'm sorry, but no. You can't logically say that gear is divested from a character's power-set when they canonically depend on that gear all the time. Nightwing may not be as dependent on their gear as someone like Iron Man, but it's still very much a part of his character and power set, and if you want to take him at his peak that has to include his best possible gear.

Of course, it's faaaaaaaar more logical to dismiss outliers and take characters as they're commonly depicted, but no one ever wants to do that in vs threads because it means they have to dismiss the time that "their guy" bench pressed a planet even though he can normally barely pick up a truck.


Definitely seconded

[Tanuki Tales]

I'm sorry, but no.

I'm sorry, but no. We're not going to endorse Pro-Batgod nonsense by assuming characters who use gear and prep always have their best possible gear on hand and the most favorable amount of prep prepared as the very basic premise going in.

Otherwise Iron-man is always in his Thorbuster or Phoenix-Buster armor, Batman always caries the gear he has prepared to fight Herald above characters in random street encounters, Thanos always has the Infinity Gauntlet, Doctor Doom always has the Beyonder's powers, etc.

It's ludicrous and disingenuous.

[BRC]

I'm sorry, but no. We're not going to endorse Pro-Batgod nonsense by assuming characters who use gear and prep always have their best possible gear on hand and the most favorable amount of prep prepared as the very basic premise going in.

Otherwise Iron-man is always in his Thorbuster or Phoenix-Buster armor, Batman always caries the gear he has prepared to fight Herald above characters in random street encounters, Thanos always has the Infinity Gauntlet, Doctor Doom always has the Beyonder's powers, etc.

It's ludicrous and disingenuous.

Agreed

Also, from what I've read of Nightwing he dosn't seem too gadget-happy anyway. He seems to have the standard Bat-Arsenal (Throwing Things, a grappling hook) plus some Escrima Sticks (apparently the go-to weapon for Bats who want to go armed).

I'm sure there are times when he's busted out the Night Anti-Shark repellent or something, but in the comics I've read he hasn't used many gadgets, instead sticking mostly to his natural athletic/Martial arts abilities.

Besides, what Gadgets would you bring that would specifically protect you against Black Widow. I guess maybe Infrared goggles (In case she sneaks up on you), Kevlar (Although I think the Bats by default wear as much Superkevlar as they can without hampering their movements), maybe something insulated to stop her Widow's Bite?

[Metahuman1]

Fan: Of course there stuff is adjustable. Granted, that may take the form of having to spring two or three different traps to find out how hard they have to nail her to drop her but not kill her/wear her down, but that's just another form of adapting and adjusting, and it's the sort of thing I'd expect form Drake or from Damian when he's not having an Ego-fit/Temper Tantrum. (Admittedly in Daminas case this is not an uncommon occurrence.) So, beats her by having already booby trapped the area, excessively, just in case, is perfectly in line with both of them.

It's not something Nightwing would be likely to do unless he specifically knew what he was going up against in advance though. But I've already contended that the fight ends with them both having a new dating partner for awhile.


Cheesegear and Moak: That's horrible. And I think you mean all five robins. =)

Tanuki Tales: This isn't Batgoding. I've already said I don't think Nightwing wins cause traps/planning/preparation. Tim Drake and Damian, on the other hand, tend to use those sorts of things on a pretty regular biases.

BRC: Yeah, with the arguable possible exception of Stephanie Brown and the noticeable exception of Cassandra Cain, I'd say of Batman's inner circle Nightwing is the least gear reliant.

[Tanuki Tales]

Tanuki Tales: This isn't Batgoding. I've already said I don't think Nightwing wins cause traps/planning/preparation. Tim Drake and Damian, on the other hand, tend to use those sorts of things on a pretty regular biases.


That wasn't in response to you Meta.

I do find your scenario of Tim/Damian/whoever being able to casually test, observe and calibrate their plans against Natasha while she's actively hunting them down very unlikely though. She's not some meathead supervillain, she's one of her world's best intelligence agents.

[BRC]

BRC: Yeah, with the arguable possible exception of Stephanie Brown and the noticeable exception of Cassandra Cain, I'd say of Batman's inner circle Nightwing is the least gear reliant.
During her time as Batgirl Steph was decently gadget-happy. She was customizing magnetized freeze-batarangs.

Also, on the subject of Traps, A trap only works if the person falls for it. Black Widow is a very experienced spy and assassin, you can't just assume that she'll fall for a trap.

[Metahuman1]

That wasn't in response to you Meta.

I do find your scenario of Tim/Damian/whoever being able to casually test, observe and calibrate their plans against Natasha while she's actively hunting them down very unlikely though. She's not some meathead supervillain, she's one of her world's best intelligence agents.

I find that scenario off as well, hence why it's not quite what i'm proposing.

I'm proposing that they've already got multiple traps set in the area for whome-or-what-ever they might need to take down that night, and just start setting them off in quick succession until something get's her, rather then have a pitched battle. Also under the assumption that she's not there to actively hunt them, she's just gotten into a fight with them. Her actively hunting them does change the equation just a touch.

Course, in Drakes Case, he might not even need that as he could hold his own with Slade at age 12, so even though he's not the personal combatant Bruce, Richard or Cassandra are, he is still hyper capable and might be able to beat her on his home turf in a fairly straight fight. I'm not giving him defiant edge in that case, but at minimum even odds if not better then even.



Edit: BRC: I can if I'm assuming a very, very large area of someone else's home turf has lots and lots and lots of traps cause that person is kinda excessive like that as a character trait. That's part of the problem of fighting someone smart and gadget happy on there home Turf. Now, again, move this fight to New York or Moscow......yeah.

And that's a good point on Stephanie. Hmmm, does anyone know if Batwoman and Question 2 tend to be very gadget dependent?

[Fan]

Fan: Of course there stuff is adjustable. Granted, that may take the form of having to spring two or three different traps to find out how hard they have to nail her to drop her but not kill her/wear her down, but that's just another form of adapting and adjusting, and it's the sort of thing I'd expect form Drake or from Damian when he's not having an Ego-fit/Temper Tantrum. (Admittedly in Daminas case this is not an uncommon occurrence.) So, beats her by having already booby trapped the area, excessively, just in case, is perfectly in line with both of them.

It's not something Nightwing would be likely to do unless he specifically knew what he was going up against in advance though. But I've already contended that the fight ends with them both having a new dating partner for awhile.


Cheesegear and Moak: That's horrible. And I think you mean all five robins. =)

Tanuki Tales: This isn't Batgoding. I've already said I don't think Nightwing wins cause traps/planning/preparation. Tim Drake and Damian, on the other hand, tend to use those sorts of things on a pretty regular biases.

BRC: Yeah, with the arguable possible exception of Stephanie Brown and the noticeable exception of Cassandra Cain, I'd say of Batman's inner circle Nightwing is the least gear reliant.

The stuff isn't adjustable then, it's them having saturated the area so throughly with such a large variety of traps that they normally don't pack, and giving them such extensive prep time, as to have made it obvious to someone like Black Widow.

There are only so many areas you can hide a grenade, bomb, or trip wire.

This is again, assuming Black Widow doesn't just kill them in their sleep. Something she'd do yes, something Nightwing would even attempt? No.

This is with morals on, so Nightwing wouldn't bring the heavier duty traps for fear of killing the otherwise normal appearing super spy.

[BRC]

Edit: BRC: I can if I'm assuming a very, very large area of someone else's home turf has lots and lots and lots of traps cause that person is kinda excessive like that as a character trait. That's part of the problem of fighting someone smart and gadget happy on there home Turf. Now, again, move this fight to New York or Moscow......yeah.

And that's a good point on Stephanie. Hmmm, does anyone know if Batwoman and Question 2 tend to be very gadget dependent?

Define "Home Turf"
Remember that the first rule of Security is that Security is inversely proportional to Accessibility. The more secure you make something, generally speaking the harder it is for you to get to it/move around. You can't booby trap every square inch of a place that you yourself intend to use, especially if that place is public.

If the place is public, no traps. You can't risk some innocent civilian wandering by and setting one off.

Even Bruce Wayne needs to be able to have guests wander around Wayne manor without setting off tripwires.

The only place I can think of that they could passively fill with traps might be the Batcave, or maybe a secret bat-bunker/

So yeah, if they know she's coming they can hole up inside some secure bat-bunker that's covered in traps.

But you can't trap the rooftops of Gotham. Not unless you know exactly which rooftop you're going to use.

And speaking of Passive Traps, Even the Batcave isn't really trapped. When Hush got in there the closest thing to a "Trap" that was sprung on him was Alfred turning on the robot dinosaur. IIRC he had Batman, Robin (Tim Drake) and Nightwing in the cave with him and not one of them activated some conveniently pre-placed trap.


So if the Batcave, home of Mister Paranoid Prepare-for-everything, and the place where the only people who should be in there are people Batman allowed in, isn't filled with the sort of traps you're talking about, why do you assume Tim Drake would fill gotham with traps.

Basically, your "They have enough traps that they can start setting them off until something works" plan only makes sense if Black Widow is stupid enough to enter their secret bunker, rather than waiting outside.

[Metahuman1]

Fan: Your telling me he can't have a second canister of gas hooked up to the first that's more potent if the first one isn't a two second KO? Can't have a remote to turn the voltage on the electrical trap up, literally high enough to shut down someone like Freeze or Clayface or Deathstroke cause he does fight them semi-regularly? Or increase the power/frequency on the comic book science based sonic weapon he used in the trap?

It doesn't take as much as you guys are thinking, and that's all well and good about security vs accessibility in real life, but in a comic book? They do this ALL the time. Even Bruce seems less reliant on traps then Tim and Damian.

And again, this it Tim and Damian I'm talking about. Richard tends to favor get in there with Escreama sticks and insane athleticism/martial arts prowess as an approach.

Now, you want a Bat Family member who Solo's Black Widow with just her skill and what's on her belt and no need for seduction? I refer you to Cassandra Cain, formerly Batgirl and now Black Bat. (Unless she got a new name/costume for the New 52?)

[Fan]

Fan: Your telling me he can't have a second canister of gas hooked up to the first that's more potent if the first one isn't a two second KO? Can't have a remote to turn the voltage on the electrical trap up, literally high enough to shut down someone like Freeze or Clayface or Deathstroke cause he does fight them semi-regularly? Or increase the power/frequency on the comic book science based sonic weapon he used in the trap?

It doesn't take as much as you guys are thinking, and that's all well and good about security vs accessibility in real life, but in a comic book? They do this ALL the time. Even Bruce seems less reliant on traps then Tim and Damian.

And again, this it Tim and Damian I'm talking about. Richard tends to favor get in there with Escreama sticks and insane athleticism/martial arts prowess as an approach.

Now, you want a Bat Family member who Solo's Black Widow with just her skill and what's on her belt and no need for seduction? I refer you to Cassandra Cain, formerly Batgirl and now Black Bat. (Unless she got a new name/costume for the New 52?)

Yes, because.. that's not how tripwires work. That's not how pressure sensors work, that's not even how gas canisters work. That isn't how.. any non completely remote controlled from a computer terminal trap works.

They pull / are pushed / are opened once and then they go off, because it removes the pin. Assuming Black Widow isn't observant enough to get around these, and again assuming she even bothers coming to the scene and doesn't take out Nightwing the same way Captain America went out (kinda).

[Logic]

Deathstroke
Shiva if Deadpool isn't serious and she is informed about him.
Close call, but I'd edge it to Wonder Woman
Batman
Another somewhat close one, I'd edge it to Daredevil if Nightwing is unaware of what Matt can do.
I might give it to She-Hulk if we're talking 100 tons Jenn. Her healing factor is also a big edge, but she's screwed if Barda has decent New God weaponry and tech.
Doom

Hmm, given all the additional edges Moon Knight typically has, I would call this Marc's fight. The only reason Batman wins so many vs scenarios is Fanboyism.

[Metahuman1]

Yes, because.. that's not how tripwires work. That's not how pressure sensors work, that's not even how gas canisters work. That isn't how.. any non completely remote controlled from a computer terminal trap works.

They pull / are pushed / are opened once and then they go off, because it removes the pin. Assuming Black Widow isn't observant enough to get around these, and again assuming she even bothers coming to the scene and doesn't take out Nightwing the same way Captain America went out (kinda).

Then assume a remote then, there both quite fond of them as a trigger anyway for that reason and because as an added bonus it makes it hard to trip it if your NOT the intended target.

And again, I maintain that it's not impossible for Tim to take Widow just on his combat expertise. Guy forced Deathstroke to play for keeps when he was twelve. I'd provide a scan but I'm at work and don't have that option.

[BRC]

Then assume a remote then, there both quite fond of them as a trigger anyway for that reason and because as an added bonus it makes it hard to trip it if your NOT the intended target.

And again, I maintain that it's not impossible for Tim to take Widow just on his combat expertise. Guy forced Deathstroke to play for keeps when he was twelve. I'd provide a scan but I'm at work and don't have that option.

Going the route of "Consistent portrayal" vs "Assume they can reliably replicate every feat", I would say that Cass is the only Batfam member who could reliably take out black widow in a straight fight.

Cass, however, is one of the best purely human fighters in the DCU. She was able to beat Lady Shiva (AKA "She Who Beats The Worlds Greatest Martial Artists To Death For Fun") in a fair fight twice.

If we assume no weapons, purely hand-to-hand, I'd say Nightwing might be able to do it, call it an even fight.

But we shouldn't be thinking of this as some sort of meeting in a dojo somewhere. Black Widow is a very good fighter, but she's primarily a Spy. Her real weapon is the ability to control the terms of the engagement.

[Fan]

Then assume a remote then, there both quite fond of them as a trigger anyway for that reason and because as an added bonus it makes it hard to trip it if your NOT the intended target.

And again, I maintain that it's not impossible for Tim to take Widow just on his combat expertise. Guy forced Deathstroke to play for keeps when he was twelve. I'd provide a scan but I'm at work and don't have that option.

Except having every trap on a remote is going to be actually impossible to trigger in time for someone like Widow to not notice muscle signals even if he's hiding it.

The only way he's going to be able to take black widow is with the significant prep time he's being allowed and her being allowed none.

Her counter to this is as simple as a set of goggles that have X-Ray, IR, and Night vision settings, and bam, that gas canister is lit up clear as day, that C4 is there plain as day.

Things like that are why you can't rely on traps to fight people with even moderate super senses and tech.

Also, Slade Wilson trained that Robin personally in the comics IIRC at a point, and had up until that point been beating the ever living **** out of Robin in every 1 v 1 encounter.

[Metahuman1]

BRC: By that logic under the perimeters of the match, She likely Disengages at the first opportunity cause there's little to nothing to be gained in comparison to the risk of taking an unknown combatant on there home turf with unknown weapons/skills/prep time/power/capability's/allies.


Fan: Wait, hold up, when did Slade train Tim Drake? I though that was Grayson he was training for awhile?

Tim Drakes first encounter with him, where he blew up Slades gun rather then have a pitched batarang vs Machine Gun match like Grayson use to do, was more the moment I had in mind.

[Fan]

BRC: By that logic under the perimeters of the match, She likely Disengages at the first opportunity cause there's little to nothing to be gained in comparison to the risk of taking an unknown combatant on there home turf with unknown weapons/skills/prep time/power/capability's/allies.


Fan: Wait, hold up, when did Slade train Tim Drake? I though that was Grayson he was training for awhile?

Tim Drakes first encounter with him, where he blew up Slades gun rather then have a pitched batarang vs Machine Gun match like Grayson use to do, was more the moment I had in mind.

Yeah that's what I'm talking about.

Context for that comic was that he was testing this Robin's skills and was holding back during that fight to see if he could find a new apprentice.

He failed, and was knocked out. Dude has consistently beaten Nightwing looking at the W/L record he has throughout the encounters in the comic counting straight up versus fights only.

In Infinite Crisis it took Tim, Bruce, and Nightwing together to take down Slade, and he gave all 3 of them at once one hell of a fight. Nightwing by himself is not a match for Deathstroke in this context.

I may HATE batman, but I do read the comics.

[Metahuman1]

Fair enough, though I would point out that I'm not necessarily advocating that Tim beats Slade one on one either, just that he puts up a solid fight and that means he should be good enough that taking down a lesser combatant is not out of the question. And Widow is a lesser combatant compared to Slade. Heck, I'd hear arguments that Steven Rogers is a lesser Combatant, though the gap there is much smaller if it's there.

I'd also like to point out if Tim/Damian DID drop Widow with a well set boobie trap, it would not be the first time Widow lost a fight that way. Probably wouldn't be the last one either.


And that's kinda hilarious cause Slades point blank told Cassandra Cain that the only way he doesn't get made into paste fighting her is if he can mind screw her, royally, or if he can take her at hyper long distance with a rifle in an ambush.

[BRC]

I may HATE batman, but I do read the comics.

Alfred's Law: Batman is always the least interesting character in any Batman story.*

That said, he makes a great catalyst for other characters to be interesting.

*Corollary to Alfred's Law, There ARE stories where Batman is an interesting character, but these stories tend to introduce other, more interesting characters.

[Metahuman1]

I like Batman, but most of the time I like his supporting cast better. But he needs to be there for them to play off of and he goes a long way toward helping to set up villains for the supporting cast. So, yeah, up to a point.

Then again, he's hardly got a monopoly on that.

[Tanuki Tales]

Hmm, given all the additional edges Moon Knight typically has, I would call this Marc's fight.

Powered Marc? Maybe.



The only reason Batman wins so many vs scenarios is Fanboyism.

I...know you didn't mean to imply that as an insult.

And while yes, Batman tends to win some fights because of Batgod, he is still one of the higher ranking martial artists in comics and one of the more potent street level characters with the right gear. Him pulling wins against other street levelers doesn't necessitate blind fanboyism.

[Anteros]

I'm sorry, but no. We're not going to endorse Pro-Batgod nonsense by assuming characters who use gear and prep always have their best possible gear on hand and the most favorable amount of prep prepared as the very basic premise going in.

Otherwise Iron-man is always in his Thorbuster or Phoenix-Buster armor, Batman always caries the gear he has prepared to fight Herald above characters in random street encounters, Thanos always has the Infinity Gauntlet, Doctor Doom always has the Beyonder's powers, etc.

It's ludicrous and disingenuous.

Do you reaaaaally want to make the argument that there aren't plenty of examples of members of the Bat family who were insanely prepared for situations they had no realistic way to predict?

That aside, here's the thing you and a few others who regularly participate in these threads don't seem to get. This is a discussion, not an official debate. You don't get to make the rules for other people. You're perfectly able to disagree with their opinions, and I'll respect that but stop trying to regulate the metrics others are allowed to use to make their decisions.

And for what it's worth I agree that it's ludicrous and disingenuous. But no more so than disregarding the way a character is presented 90% of the time because the other 10% supports your position.


That's why the character is divided into eras.

Post Crisis, Pre Crisis, and New 52. Within those eras they are generally consistent, though as with anything with a long publication history there are outliers. (Which is why we ignore Superman absorbing the galaxy destroying Anti Sun bomb, pulling the Maggeddon device which has greater mass than a star, etc. Those are his outliers because they aren't supported anywhere else.)

Also prep time and gear are seperated because those characters wouldn't normally bring tailored gear to a fight against an opponent they know nothing about. Traditionally, when someone says they want someone like say, Superman, at his peak throughout his Post Crisis run they don't include things like Superman's Warsuit which gives him immunity to kryptonite, red sun radiation, and multiples his stats. Nor do they include sundipping in spite of those things that would be possible for him to do in said fight or things he'd be able to retrieve with his speed.


I have never used outlier feats, and no one here has either. When something is represented multiple times across multiple story lines it stops being an outlier, even if the character is sometimes made to forget they have that power for plot, or made to job to a normally much weaker character. That is called an "outlier", when like, Captain America beats Thor it's considered an outlier and should be ignored because Thor cracks planets in his comics, and fights on the surface of stars, whereas Steve Rogers can't even lift a tank over his head throughout his entire publication series.

Giving people without powers or abilities that allow them to know about their opponent knowledge without giving the other side knowledge is what's called bias, and it's not fair to give that to one side and not the other.

Just because you have multiple outliers doesn't mean they cease to be outliers. It's a matter of scale. If 95% of the time a character is depicted as struggling to lift an airplane, and the other 5% they're busting mountains then the mountain busting instances are outliers, even if that 5% is composed of several different instances.


Traditionally, when someone says they want someone like say, Superman, at his peak throughout his Post Crisis run

This is the fundamental thing that I disagree with you on. When someone says they want Superman, you assume that they want him at his hypothetical peak. Others may assume that they want him as he's more commonly depicted. It doesn't mean either person is wrong...you're simply debating different versions of the character. Like I told Tanuki earlier, these threads are an open discussion for anyone to participate. You don't get to decide the rules for other participants.

[Tanuki Tales]

Do you reaaaaally want to make the argument that there aren't plenty of examples of members of the Bat family who were insanely prepared for situations they had no realistic way to predict?


Plot Induced Stupidity is never grounds for rational discourse or support.

[BRC]

Powered Marc? Maybe.




I...know you didn't mean to imply that as an insult.

And while yes, Batman tends to win some fights because of Batgod, he is still one of the higher ranking martial artists in comics and one of the more potent street level characters with the right gear. Him pulling wins against other street levelers doesn't necessitate blind fanboyism.
I think they're talking about in terms of Vs threads.

That said, in a lot of the Batbooks the idea that Batman can take just about anybody in hand-to-hand seems to be prevelent, as if the writers have some rule against showing that somebody is better than Batman at something.
I mean, the Hero almost always wins, that's why it's Heroic fiction. However, with Batman books I always get a sense that his victory is inevitable.
Normally this isn't a bad thing, but I personally feel like he should find himself outclassed when he's in a fistfight against more martial-arts focused characters.
Batman is the World's Greatest Detective, he's also a Genius Scientist, an Amazing Martial Artist, and a Peak Athlete.
All that's fine and dandy.

But the "Nobody is allowed to be better than Batman" thing is still there.

Consider: Cassandra Cain. She's frequently painted as Batman's Equal when it comes to martial arts. They both get drugged into fighting at one point (Batman meant for it to happen to help her get over her issues or something because Nobody Is Allowed to Be Better Than Batman)

Lady Shiva is supposed to be the Best Non-Powered Fighter in the DCU. There are whole cults dedicated to being good enough to die at her hands.

Cassandra Cain beats Lady Shiva in a fair fight.

Batman is confident enough that he can hold his own against a ragedrugged Cassandra Cain that he arranges/allows the fight to happen.

By the transitive property, Batman is not only the Worlds Greatest Detective and a Genius Scientist, he is at the very least on par with the World's Deadliest Martial Artist.

That's what I mean by "Nobody is allowed to be better than Batman". Which kind of carries over into Versus threads and the Batgod factor.

[Anteros]

Plot Induced Stupidity is never grounds for rational discourse or support.

How is it plot induced stupidity that a character who spends the majority of their time preparing for potential scenarios, is actually prepared for them over someone who doesn't?

For the record, I'm not even weighing in on the actual Vs. thread at hand so don't take my comments as anything towards that. I have no idea who would win between the two

[Anteros]

I think they're talking about in terms of Vs threads.

That said, in a lot of the Batbooks the idea that Batman can take just about anybody in hand-to-hand seems to be prevelent, as if the writers have some rule against showing that somebody is better than Batman at something.
I mean, the Hero almost always wins, that's why it's Heroic fiction. However, with Batman books I always get a sense that his victory is inevitable.
Normally this isn't a bad thing, but I personally feel like he should find himself outclassed when he's in a fistfight against more martial-arts focused characters.
Batman is the World's Greatest Detective, he's also a Genius Scientist, an Amazing Martial Artist, and a Peak Athlete.
All that's fine and dandy.

But the "Nobody is allowed to be better than Batman" thing is still there.

Consider: Cassandra Cain. She's frequently painted as Batman's Equal when it comes to martial arts. They both get drugged into fighting at one point (Batman meant for it to happen to help her get over her issues or something because Nobody Is Allowed to Be Better Than Batman)

Lady Shiva is supposed to be the Best Non-Powered Fighter in the DCU. There are whole cults dedicated to being good enough to die at her hands.

Cassandra Cain beats Lady Shiva in a fair fight.

Batman is confident enough that he can hold his own against a ragedrugged Cassandra Cain that he arranges/allows the fight to happen.

By the transitive property, Batman is not only the Worlds Greatest Detective and a Genius Scientist, he is at the very least on par with the World's Deadliest Martial Artist.

That's what I mean by "Nobody is allowed to be better than Batman". Which kind of carries over into Versus threads and the Batgod factor.

I own at least one comic where he actually beats Shiva, although it's ambiguous on whether she's under mind control at the time. At the very least he's probably good enough to fight defensively and protect himself. You also have to recognize that while he may be outclassed by Shiva and Cass in technical ability, he has a massive physical advantage over both.

To be fair though, the detective thing, being prepared, and the martial arts are kind've Batman's whole gimmick. He may be a genius scientist, as well as other things, but there are plenty of entities who outclass him in those areas.

[Tanuki Tales]

How is it plot induced stupidity that a character who spends the majority of their time preparing for potential scenarios, is actually prepared for them over someone who doesn't?



Do you reaaaaally want to make the argument that there aren't plenty of examples of members of the Bat family who were insanely prepared for situations they had no realistic way to predict?

That's the caveat you provided that makes it PIS. If the character had no reason to be prepared for an eventuality, the fact that they're presented as being prepared for the sake of the plot of the story makes it PIS.

@BRC:

Well, yes, Batman can at least fight other Martial Artists in DC, but I don't see how that's the same as "Nobody is allowed to be better than Batman" thing. Just because one bit of bad writing that had Bruce thinking he can take Cass doesn't mean it should be used as a metric. There are plenty of martial artists who can hand him his rear.

[BRC]

@BRC:

Well, yes, Batman can at least fight other Martial Artists in DC, but I don't see how that's the same as "Nobody is allowed to be better than Batman" thing. Just because one bit of bad writing that had Bruce thinking he can take Cass doesn't mean it should be used as a metric. There are plenty of martial artists who can hand him his rear.

It's more a vague sense I get from reading the comics then anything else. Maybe that's because I've read more Batfam books than Batman stuff. Call it a gut impression of an unwritten rule. Showing me a comic where Batman gets beaten up by Joey the Janitor wouldn't necessarily make it go away.

[Anteros]

It's unrealistic, but it's also a comic book. Almost every thing that happens is unrealistic. You might think it's stupid, and I happen to agree...but I don't think you should ignore an established trait of a character simply because it doesn't make sense.

For what it's worth, I'm absolutely certain there's at least one version of the Bat family that actually has dossiers on the Avengers and their capabilities/weaknesses. Bats has fought them before, and that's the type of thing he does. Now, whether Grayson would bother actually studying those on the off chance it comes up one day....probably not.

[The Glyphstone]

That's the caveat you provided that makes it PIS. If the character had no reason to be prepared for an eventuality, the fact that they're presented as being prepared for the sake of the plot of the story makes it PIS.


Wouldn't that technically be Plot Induced Intelligence? Or is the 'stupidity' referring to the plot itself, rather than the actions of the characters?

[Metahuman1]

Ok, since Plot Induced Stupidity is now a factor, consider the following. Tim, **** and Bruce beat Deathstroke in a 3 on one. Deathstroke uses lethal force and yet has never killed **** in all the times they've fought.

Deathstroke Canonically (until new 52), Beat the entire Justice League Sans Superman and Wonder Woman and I think Captain Marvel, in Identity Crises, effortlessly. Flash, Zatana, Olly, Black Canary, Kyle Rainer, so on.

The fact that Nightwing can fight Deathstroke and live, repeatedly, puts him at at bear minimum, a comparable Caliber to Wally West and Kyle Rainer.

So by that train of though, he should mop the floor with Widow instantly, just like Tim Drake should for the same reason.





But that is plot induced Stupidity that someone's who suppose to be Wolverine/Captain America/Spider Man/Deadpool Caliber can Solo the Justice League.

Suddenly traps all over the place and happens to be her type and vise verse making them not want to fight seems tame and reasonable though, doesn't it?

[Fan]

I own at least one comic where he actually beats Shiva, although it's ambiguous on whether she's under mind control at the time. At the very least he's probably good enough to fight defensively and protect himself. You also have to recognize that while he may be outclassed by Shiva and Cass in technical ability, he has a massive physical advantage over both.

To be fair though, the detective thing, being prepared, and the martial arts are kind've Batman's whole gimmick. He may be a genius scientist, as well as other things, but there are plenty of entities who outclass him in those areas.

Well yes, that's just biology in the first part as far as physical strength goes. It's just a matter of having a denser core of muscle as opposed to a womb in that area, and an overall denser musculature. Just basic, repeatedly proven science. Much like a female angler fish has the lure attached to a modified dorsal fin, and the male doesn't.

Not a matter of someone training harder than anyone else. In fact, I'd say by virtue of being near his equal Cass and Lady Shiva have trained far harder than he has with far less genetic bias on their side.

All of Identity Crisis is considered Plot induced Stupidity.

The entire thing. It's bad, it should feel bad, and I hope it cries itself to sleep. There is absolutely nothing in it that's even mildly consistent with the rest of continuity and is in fact, one colossal middle finger to anything attempting to define continuity by virtue of it being about AMNESIA. Literally the most cliche possible soap opera plot.

It is ****ing terrible, and it should never have existed.


Also Glyph it's plot induced stupidity on the part of the other characters rather than it being a virtue or a boost to the character who won. Flash forgetting that he can vibrate his molecules to phase through attacks when Deathstroke stabbed him is a prime example of that, Deathstroke overpowering.. Kyle Rayner's ring by having a stronger will is also stupidity in a plot sense given that makes NO ****ING SENSE, it's bad.

It is hands down one of the worst plots in mainline continuity. Created Equal was a better overall story than Identity Crisis, and saying that as Superman Fan should mean SOMETHING to anyone who knows what those are.

[The Glyphstone]

Also Glyph it's plot induced stupidity on the part of the other characters rather than it being a virtue or a boost to the character who won. Flash forgetting that he can vibrate his molecules to phase through attacks when Deathstroke stabbed him is a prime example of that, Deathstroke overpowering.. Kyle Rayner's ring by having a stronger will is also stupidity in a plot sense given that makes NO ****ING SENSE, it's bad.


Sure, those all make sense as PIS examples. But Tanuki was citing "characters setting up traps/being crazy prepared when they had no logical reason to be that prepared except the plot said so", which caused my confusion over the specific usage of Stupidity, Plot Induced. Are we saying, in this case, that the PIS is not 'Tim lays stupid numbers of traps everywhere', but 'Widow doesn't check exhaustively for anything that might be a trap'?

[Tanuki Tales]

PIS is a catch all term for when something happens that shouldn't, because of Plot. It doesn't actually have to mean that someone is acting below their normal capability.

@BRC: This is a list of DC characters who can beat Bruce in a one on one, fair fight (keeping in mind that flat superhuman stats is not enough to beat a significantly superior fighter):

Lady Shiva
Richard Dragon
Slade Wilson
David Cain
**** Grayson
Val Amorr
Cassandra Cain
Ben Turner
Connor Hawke

There are probably more, I'm just not remembering them.

@Meta: Please don't treat Identity Crisis as anything but PIS. :smallsigh:

[Metahuman1]

PIS is a catch all term for when something happens that shouldn't, because of Plot. It doesn't actually have to mean that someone is acting below their normal capability.

@BRC: This is a list of DC characters who can beat Bruce in a one on one, fair fight (keeping in mind that flat superhuman stats is not enough to beat a significantly superior fighter):

Lady Shiva
Richard Dragon
Slade Wilson
David Cain
**** Grayson
Val Amorr
Cassandra Cain
Ben Turner
Connor Hawke

There are probably more, I'm just not remembering them.

@Meta: Please don't treat Identity Crisis as anything but PIS. :smallsigh:

Oh, Identity Crisis was horrible, but it was Canon in the post crises pre new 52. Just like One More Day and Civil War for marvel. Which means since Traps are plot induced stupidity unless widow beats them cause spy, my logic still stands, even if it's standing in Doo-Doo.

Now, if you wanna ignore identity Crises, let's talk traps and intelligent use of home field advantage by intelligent people who canonically use traps regularly and often fight people as and more capable at the defining things about the proposed opponent, and let's talk Nightwing likes to romance Badass Red Heads and Black Widow likes to Romance Handsome Charismatic Super Hero-ish Badasses instead.


And you should add De-powered Diana to that list as I'm pretty sure she's suppose to be considered a better straight fighter even with out super powers then Bruce. I think Aquaman is in a similar boat but I'm less sure in his case.

Oh, and Big Barda, can't forget Big Barda. Even De powered in a fair fight Big Barda'd break Bruce as fast as Bane.

[Ravens_cry]

Nightwing has one big advantage over Black Widow. No damn heels. Seriously, why do female superheroes, even street level characters, almost universally seem to wear practically (or actually!) stilettos or some other kind of high heels? Oh, I know why, but it's still fracking ridiculous.
Even if you are empowered and/or mainly keep to the air, why give the enemy any kind of potential advantage like that since you are likely to be fighting also empowered baddies?

[JBPuffin]

So, coming from the layman's POV when it comes to both characters, here's what I've gotten:

Deadpool once took out the Justice League, but didn't take out the Bat Trio for whatever reason.

Cassandra Cain could hand both these guys their own butts within five seconds, so really she's won the match already even though she wasn't competing.

Black Widow, as in comic book version? No f-ing clue here, although from what I understand from the movie Stan Lee made a cameo in that came out 2013-ish she is not on-par with...well, any of the other Avengers, even when she has the seduction edge.

...you know, I have to say from the basics given, this really is just the two of them warming up for their makeout session. I mean, morals might mean Widow would kill, but would she want to? That's a somewhat-important question, no?

[lord_khaine]

@BRC: This is a list of DC characters who can beat Bruce in a one on one, fair fight (keeping in mind that flat superhuman stats is not enough to beat a significantly superior fighter):

Well.. there are also Karate Kid from the Legion, who will beat Bruce and everyone else on that list hands down :smalltongue:

[The Glyphstone]

...you know, I have to say from the basics given, this really is just the two of them warming up for their makeout session. I mean, morals might mean Widow would kill, but would she want to? That's a somewhat-important question, no?

It's a "random encounter" by the terms of the OP. So...maybe? Probably depends on how hard Nightwing presses the attack, after presumably assuming she's a villain and not bothering to check credentials.

[comicshorse]

Well.. there are also Karate Kid from the Legion, who will beat Bruce and everyone else on that list hands down :smalltongue:

Val Armorr is Karate Kid's real name

I'd probably add Black Canary to the list

[JBPuffin]

...Wow, if Nightwing does just charge into battle, then yeah, he's gonna be in for a fight. I'm somewhat intrigued by something, though: she's got those Electro-Bracelets that shoot stun bolts, the Widow's Bite, right? Well, if she is called the Black Widow, so maybe she just paralyzes Night and call it a day? I mean, the OP said she has them, so why not use them? Take 'im in alive for bonus points.

[Tanuki Tales]

Oh, Identity Crisis was horrible, but it was Canon in the post crises pre new 52. Just like One More Day and Civil War for marvel. Which means since Traps are plot induced stupidity unless widow beats them cause spy, my logic still stands, even if it's standing in Doo-Doo.

No one actually seriously uses Identity Crisis when debating Deathstroke, unless they're wanking him.


Now, if you wanna ignore identity Crises,

Do, let's.


let's talk traps and intelligent use of home field advantage by intelligent people who canonically use traps regularly and often fight people as and more capable at the defining things about the proposed opponent, and let's talk Nightwing likes to romance Badass Red Heads and Black Widow likes to Romance Handsome Charismatic Super Hero-ish Badasses instead.

I was never saying none of the Bat family couldn't intelligently use traps and their home field advantage, just that if they take Natasha at face value, it wouldn't play out well for them.


And you should add De-powered Diana to that list as I'm pretty sure she's suppose to be considered a better straight fighter even with out super powers then Bruce. I think Aquaman is in a similar boat but I'm less sure in his case.

But has she fought him sans powers? I have no issue with her being on that list, at all, but I don't know personally if her hand to hand is that good. Aquaman, I don't see being a better fighter, to be honest. Love the man, but I've never seen pure skill as one of his fortes.

Please do prove me wrong though; I love learning that Aquaman is more capable and bad ass that I'm aware.


Oh, and Big Barda, can't forget Big Barda. Even De powered in a fair fight Big Barda'd break Bruce as fast as Bane.

Bane only did as well as he did because Bruce was completely worn down from dealing with an Arkham breakout that Bane orchestrated and because Bane was using Venom.

[Metahuman1]

I am less certain about aquaman, just cause i am less familiar with him.

I know Diana's trained with Bruce and I beleive that is his personal assessment of her skills, and I;m 99% sure that it's listed in her Wiki that she is THE top martial artist in the leage, including Batman.


And my point Exactly, Bane needed Drugs and to use other people to soften him up and allow him to organized the battle ground in his favor. Barda spent 200 years growing up and being trained as a warrior in a place were 1984 is considered a light hearted comedy, watchmen is a comforting fairy tail, and Dante's Inferno is regaurded as uplifting. Take away her powers and then force Batman to fight fair and she'd crush him like it was nothing.


And that was all I wanted to do with having to drag Identity Crises into this, get everyone to stop dissmissing the previously listed points. Now if you'll excuse me, gotta go make sure that rumor that it;s being kept in continuity in the New 52 is exactly that, an empty rumor.


Edit: And yes, Karate Kid for Legion destroys Batman in a fair fight.

[Avilan the Grey]

I own at least one comic where he actually beats Shiva, although it's ambiguous on whether she's under mind control at the time.

I *think* in retrospect that yes, there were a number of factors used to more or less confirm that he got lucky in a lot of ways that time.

On the other hand Huntress beat her, though she did it with stubborness, grit, and by playing dirty in a way Shiva didn't expect.

...And then New 52 happened and I will never be able to read Birds Of Prey again.

[BRC]

I *think* in retrospect that yes, there were a number of factors used to more or less confirm that he got lucky in a lot of ways that time.

On the other hand Huntress beat her, though she did it with stubborness, grit, and by playing dirty in a way Shiva didn't expect.

...And then New 52 happened and I will never be able to read Birds Of Prey again.

Huntress didn't "Beat" her, Huntress survived fighting her until Black Canary was able to get the hostages that the villain was using to force the fight to happen to safety. Huntress (Who, while quite a scrapper, is NOT a top-level martial artist) stood standing after being hit and put up a good fight.

[Avilan the Grey]

Huntress didn't "Beat" her, Huntress survived fighting her until Black Canary was able to get the hostages that the villain was using to force the fight to happen to safety. Huntress (Who, while quite a scrapper, is NOT a top-level martial artist) stood standing after being hit and put up a good fight.

Exactly. Admittedly both the /(¤&)#¤ that instigated the fight (Shiva didn't actually want to fight, but was obligated to by some favor owed, and wasn't really that keen on pushing the issue) and Shiva herself were shocked at the fact though. When Huntress throw some of her own blood in Shiva's eyes and managed to punch her damn good it was something NOBODY (not even Huntress) had expected. The villain of the story even had a mini-BSOD.

[BRC]

Exactly. Admittedly both the /(¤&)#¤ that instigated the fight (Shiva didn't actually want to fight, but was obligated to by some favor owed, and wasn't really that keen on pushing the issue) and Shiva herself were shocked at the fact though. When Huntress throw some of her own blood in Shiva's eyes and managed to punch her damn good it was something NOBODY (not even Huntress) had expected. The villain of the story even had a mini-BSOD.

IIRC

White Canary AKA Sister in Silk arranged the whole thing by kidnapping Sin, Black Canary's quasi-adopted child/found sister (Who through some circumstances was given to a foster family).
SiS's brothers, the Twelve Brothers In Silk, were supposed to be unbeatable. Black Canary, plus a bunch of other heavy hitter martial artist types, were able to win against them, so SiS goes and kills them all personally, and wants revenge on Canary for "making" her do it.

SiS was using this as leverage on everybody involved. Canary (who had a broken wrist) was supposed to challenge Shiva to a fight to the death, whereupon she would be beaten to death.

Canary didn't like it, but "Walking into certain death to protect innocents/family" is kind of the Superhero job description. Shiva didn't like it, but the entire thing was deeply steeped in honor-culture. Plus Shiva kind of cares about Canary, so the whole Hostage situation worked on her too.

Huntress is sent to deliver the challenge on Canary's behalf (By walking ten feet, they're in the same room) but then challenges Shiva herself.

They fight, Shiva hits huntress like a truck, huntress surprises everybody by staying on her feet afterwards, spitting blood into Shiva's face, and actually landing a punch.

Meanwhile one of SiS's Students switches sides, helps Canary find Sin, and rescues her.

They go back and stop the fight, arguing that Shiva and Huntress's Fight to the Death could happen at anytime. Shiva calls Huntress Iron Dragon, and everything is good.

[Avilan the Grey]

IIRC

White Canary AKA Sister in Silk arranged the whole thing by kidnapping Sin, Black Canary's quasi-adopted child/found sister (Who through some circumstances was given to a foster family).
SiS's brothers, the Twelve Brothers In Silk, were supposed to be unbeatable. Black Canary, plus a bunch of other heavy hitter martial artist types, were able to win against them, so SiS goes and kills them all personally, and wants revenge on Canary for "making" her do it.

SiS was using this as leverage on everybody involved. Canary (who had a broken wrist) was supposed to challenge Shiva to a fight to the death, whereupon she would be beaten to death.

Canary didn't like it, but "Walking into certain death to protect innocents/family" is kind of the Superhero job description. Shiva didn't like it, but the entire thing was deeply steeped in honor-culture. Plus Shiva kind of cares about Canary, so the whole Hostage situation worked on her too.

Huntress is sent to deliver the challenge on Canary's behalf (By walking ten feet, they're in the same room) but then challenges Shiva herself.

They fight, Shiva hits huntress like a truck, huntress surprises everybody by staying on her feet afterwards, spitting blood into Shiva's face, and actually landing a punch.

Meanwhile one of SiS's Students switches sides, helps Canary find Sin, and rescues her.

They go back and stop the fight, arguing that Shiva and Huntress's Fight to the Death could happen at anytime. Shiva calls Huntress Iron Dragon, and everything is good.



Thanks for the summary :smallbiggrin:

[Fan]

IIRC

White Canary AKA Sister in Silk arranged the whole thing by kidnapping Sin, Black Canary's quasi-adopted child/found sister (Who through some circumstances was given to a foster family).
SiS's brothers, the Twelve Brothers In Silk, were supposed to be unbeatable. Black Canary, plus a bunch of other heavy hitter martial artist types, were able to win against them, so SiS goes and kills them all personally, and wants revenge on Canary for "making" her do it.

SiS was using this as leverage on everybody involved. Canary (who had a broken wrist) was supposed to challenge Shiva to a fight to the death, whereupon she would be beaten to death.

Canary didn't like it, but "Walking into certain death to protect innocents/family" is kind of the Superhero job description. Shiva didn't like it, but the entire thing was deeply steeped in honor-culture. Plus Shiva kind of cares about Canary, so the whole Hostage situation worked on her too.

Huntress is sent to deliver the challenge on Canary's behalf (By walking ten feet, they're in the same room) but then challenges Shiva herself.

They fight, Shiva hits huntress like a truck, huntress surprises everybody by staying on her feet afterwards, spitting blood into Shiva's face, and actually landing a punch.

Meanwhile one of SiS's Students switches sides, helps Canary find Sin, and rescues her.

They go back and stop the fight, arguing that Shiva and Huntress's Fight to the Death could happen at anytime. Shiva calls Huntress Iron Dragon, and everything is good.



Birds of Prey used to be really good with stories like these.

Then New 52.

A lot of comics are this way though, and it's not that I don't like change. I love character evolution.

[Anteros]

PIS is a catch all term for when something happens that shouldn't, because of Plot. It doesn't actually have to mean that someone is acting below their normal capability.

@BRC: This is a list of DC characters who can beat Bruce in a one on one, fair fight (keeping in mind that flat superhuman stats is not enough to beat a significantly superior fighter):

Lady Shiva
Richard Dragon
Slade Wilson
David Cain
**** Grayson
Val Amorr
Cassandra Cain
Ben Turner
Connor Hawke

There are probably more, I'm just not remembering them.

@Meta: Please don't treat Identity Crisis as anything but PIS. :smallsigh:

But using this definition we should be discounting physical feats that characters shouldn't technically be capable of as well, which you aren't willing to do. You can't just claim "No, that's stupid of the author to write and it doesn't count" for some things but not for others and expect people to accept your argument.

[Metahuman1]

On the flip side, take heart that Identity Crisis, Cry for Justice, Created Equal, Battle for Bludhaven, Superman and Big Barda make a Porno, Amazon's Attack, Countdown, New Krypton, it's official, they never happened.


Now, if Marvel wants to impress me, what they'll do with there baggage is they'll have character's willfully admit, on camera, that they royally screwed up during events like Civil War and Avengers vs. X-Men, and reset those things by having them own up to stupid stuff they did and go out of there way going forward to acknowledge it was bad and fix it.

Oh, and they'll let one of there higher tier cosmics end up with a reason to beat Mephisto ten shades of purple all across the galaxy, and have Mephisto taking that beating undo a lot of his BS, including One More Day.

Edit: Batman/Daredeviled!

Kinda the point I was making. I don't like that I had to reach to that to make it, but evidently it stuck cause all of a sudden the tone of the discussion changed pretty drastically.

[Anteros]

I *think* in retrospect that yes, there were a number of factors used to more or less confirm that he got lucky in a lot of ways that time.


I'd like to hear them. It's not that I don't believe you, it's just that I don't follow comics that closely any more and I never heard them.

[Fan]

But using this definition we should be discounting physical feats that characters shouldn't technically be capable of as well, which you aren't willing to do. You can't just claim "No, that's stupid of the author to write and it doesn't count" for some things but not for others and expect people to accept your argument.

No, no.

When something happens that is beyond the character's self stated and repeatedly tested limits by a MASSIVE (Read: More than 100,000 times difference.) margin it's considered such an outlier that it's stupid and not indicative of the character's actually capabilities.

You can't say things like this and then expect people to take you seriously when you also try to argue against Superman's outlier feats.

We ignore both to keep things within the reasonably consistent representations of the character that are ALSO in line with the character's overall performance in their title comics.

That's why it's taken seriously, and the other method isn't.


Also New Krypton was good, what are you even talking about Metahuman? It's not even remotely on the level of any of those other comics, hell Countdown to Infinite Crisis was good too.

[BRC]

But using this definition we should be discounting physical feats that characters shouldn't technically be capable of as well, which you aren't willing to do. You can't just claim "No, that' stupid of the author to write and it doesn't count" for some things but not for others.

it's a fuzzy line, but it's one that you can usually figure out.

Physically impossible tasks are standard fare for Superheroes, even "Unpowered" ones like Batman or nightwing.

Just think, in this world navigating across a city by swinging from things with a grapple is not just doable, it's so commonplace that it's just taken for granted. It's just assumed that the Bats can jump, run, and swing their way across roofs at pursuit speed without ever misjudging a jump or getting caught in a crossbreeze mid-swing, or even just stopping to look for a grapple point. They just point their pocket-sized grapple guns off-panel, never once missing or failing to get a good hold on something grappleable.

And yet, basically every gothamite to put on spandex is just assumed to be able to get around this way.

With that in mind, "Navigating a city by swinging on grappling hook ropes" can probably be assumed to be a feat Nightwing can pull off reliably, because it makes sense within the context of the world.

Plot Induced Stupidity is singular feats that make NO sense within the context of the world. For example, Deathstroke beating up 90% of the Justice League at once.
Or the infamous "Moving the earth out of orbit" incident with Superman. Nobody who has ever punched something and NOT completely obliterated it has any business hauling a planet.

[Anteros]

No, no.

When something happens that is beyond the character's self stated and repeatedly tested limits by a MASSIVE (Read: More than 100,000 times difference.) margin it's considered such an outlier that it's stupid and not indicative of the character's actually capabilities.

You can't say things like this and then expect people to take you seriously when you also try to argue against Superman's outlier feats.

We ignore both to keep things within the reasonably consistent representations of the character that are ALSO in line with the character's overall performance in their title comics.

That's why it's taken seriously, and the other method isn't.


Also New Krypton was good, what are you even talking about Metahuman? It's not even remotely on the level of any of those other comics, hell Countdown to Infinite Crisis was good too.

I do argue against Superman's outlier feats, and I'd be perfectly willing to argue against outlier feats of Batman, Nightwing, etc. What I won't do is accept outlier feats from one person and dismiss them from others because "that's stupid" like you want me to. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

I'm perfectly willing to toss out examples like the time Slade beat up the league, but if I do so I'm going to toss out examples of other feats that I think are stupid and beyond a character's given power set as well.

Honestly, 99% of the time it wouldn't even change who would win in these threads anyway.

[Fan]

I do argue against Superman's outlier feats, and I'd be perfectly willing to argue against outlier feats of Batman, Nightwing, etc. What I won't do is accept outlier feats from one person and dismiss them from others because "that's stupid" like you want me to. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

I'm perfectly willing to toss out examples like the time Slade beat up the league, but if I do so I'm going to toss out examples of other feats that I think are stupid and beyond a character's given power set as well.

Honestly, 99% of the time it wouldn't even change who would win in these threads anyway.

Well I think you and I are operating on similar wavelengths with different definitions of outliers.

My definition of outliers are things that happen only once, appear only so a character can do something plot / versus fight related, and then vanish.

If it's brought up a few times more then it stops being an outlier.

Superman, for instance, has moved planet sized objects by my count, at least 12 plus times in Post Crisis by himself, and 3 times in New 52. I can in fact, cite them all. I've done it before.

It isn't an outlier, and given his canon mental blocks and constant stated personal restraint to the point where he's able to do something like.. I don't know "World of Carboard", then yes it does make sense.

[Ranxerox]

IIRC

White Canary AKA Sister in Silk arranged the whole thing by kidnapping Sin, Black Canary's quasi-adopted child/found sister (Who through some circumstances was given to a foster family).
SiS's brothers, the Twelve Brothers In Silk, were supposed to be unbeatable. Black Canary, plus a bunch of other heavy hitter martial artist types, were able to win against them, so SiS goes and kills them all personally, and wants revenge on Canary for "making" her do it.

SiS was using this as leverage on everybody involved. Canary (who had a broken wrist) was supposed to challenge Shiva to a fight to the death, whereupon she would be beaten to death.

Canary didn't like it, but "Walking into certain death to protect innocents/family" is kind of the Superhero job description. Shiva didn't like it, but the entire thing was deeply steeped in honor-culture. Plus Shiva kind of cares about Canary, so the whole Hostage situation worked on her too.

Huntress is sent to deliver the challenge on Canary's behalf (By walking ten feet, they're in the same room) but then challenges Shiva herself.

They fight, Shiva hits huntress like a truck, huntress surprises everybody by staying on her feet afterwards, spitting blood into Shiva's face, and actually landing a punch.

Meanwhile one of SiS's Students switches sides, helps Canary find Sin, and rescues her.

They go back and stop the fight, arguing that Shiva and Huntress's Fight to the Death could happen at anytime. Shiva calls Huntress Iron Dragon, and everything is good.



You are underselling Huntress' b@d@ssness a bit

After realizing that she had no chance of beating of even surviving Shiva fighting as she was, Helena made a strategy of leading with her face. Then after taking shot after shot to her mouth and jaw, with her mouth completely full of blood she made a spray of it to blind Shiva. Lady Shiva was as much floored by the audacity and grit of Helena's strategy as she was by the blows she took while she was blinded.

Otherwise, good summary.

[Cheesegear]

A lot of comics are this way though, and it's not that I don't like change. I love character evolution.

More important to me than each of the Robins' relationships with the Bat, are the four Robins' relationships to each other. That appears to have all gone down the toilet with New 52.

inb4; Yes. Four. I don't count Carrie because she wasn't part of pre-New 52, nor do I count Stephanie Brown. Although I really wish her relationship with Tim was in New 52, but, comic publishers apparently don't like having their characters actually be happy.

[lord_khaine]

Yeah, thats why i also hate just about everything i have heard about 52 so far, since just to start with then they have apperently broken Louis and Clark up.

[Fan]

Yeah, thats why i also hate just about everything i have heard about 52 so far, since just to start with then they have apperently broken Louis and Clark up.

It's been pretty much "Oh, good start to a series mayb- OH GOD WHY."

[Metahuman1]

It's been pretty much "Oh, good start to a series mayb- OH GOD WHY."

Does this mean Aquaman, Earth 2 and Supergirl ended up Tanking?


And New Krypton made it Canon that Superman and his small inner circle of Kryptonians on earth are outliers, and thus gave credit to the argument that anyone with superman's powers couldn't be a paragon of morality, cause that power would absolutely corrupt them instantly end of story.

It also helped pave the way for Cry for Justice. And needlessly Murdered Supergirls Father, and Drug Doomsday up AGAIN for like the hundred millionth time.

[Tanuki Tales]

I miss the Doomsday who was basically Hulk, but taken up to 11.

I even kind of miss the Doomsday who was that with Darwin mixed in.

But now we've gotten the Doomsday who's basically Amazo 2.0 and that completely lost my interest.

[Avilan the Grey]

I'd like to hear them. It's not that I don't believe you, it's just that I don't follow comics that closely any more and I never heard them.

The *think* part was because I didn't pay close attention to it either. Sorry.

[Metahuman1]

I miss the Doomsday who was basically Hulk, but taken up to 11.

I even kind of miss the Doomsday who was that with Darwin mixed in.

But now we've gotten the Doomsday who's basically Amazo 2.0 and that completely lost my interest.

I liked Doomsday the first time he showed up. In my mind at the time Supes couldn't be hurt if you didn't have Kryptonight or Red Solar Energy (I didn't realize the susceptibility to Magic, or the lesser invulnerability to Telepathy, Electricity and Sonics, and I certainly didn't realize if you could hit him hard enough his bones would break just like any one else.), so reading among my first superman comics I though Someone was gonna attack him with Kryptonight and that was gonna be his undoing.

So, it was quite the shock when Doomsday started injuring him, and a hell of a shock to the system when he and Doomsday just flat ended it by beating each other to death.

And I kinda liked the notion of adapting so that he'd come back if you killed him and be immune to what you used to kill him. But the thing is, the end of that story arc should have been the last time the character was seen. Dropping him at the literal end of the universe big squish and leaving him there should have been it.

But NO!!! Guy started showing up everywhere, and it got really freaking OLD!

[Logic]

Powered Marc? Maybe.
That is why I gave the fight to Marc. I am more familiar with the Moon Knight with Super-powers than the version without.

I...know you didn't mean to imply that as an insult.It's not meant to be an insult, it was just the quickest way to present my opinion of how Batman is written. Writers other than Bob Kane and Bill Finger are basically writing canon fan-fiction (*This is technically true with all comic characters with stories written by someone other than their original creators, just go with it for a minute.)

So, the the First Batfan writes a Batman book that the Second Batfan reads and loves, and he grows up to write for Batman but kicks it up a notch, and so does Batfan #3, and then we have power-creep. Except in the case of the Batman, it isn't power creep of his powers, but of the capabilities of his gadgets, or his ability to plan a Thanatos Gambit/Roulette, etc.


And while yes, Batman tends to win some fights because of Batgod, he is still one of the higher ranking martial artists in comics and one of the more potent street level characters with the right gear. Him pulling wins against other street levelers doesn't necessitate blind fanboyism.I won't argue that Batman is not one of the best Martial Artists in the DCU, however I find it preposterous at how often he is written as this "Batgod" many of you reference. For example, able to defeat 10 white martians alone, while the likes of Flash and Green Lantern only manage to share in the defeat of one? And Batman does this all off-screen? CONVENIENT.

Batman vs Captain America? Fan votes determined the outcome of this one, and unsurprisingly, Batman won. What is surprising is how often many others argue this as an example of Bruce being a superior fighter to Steve. (Thankfully, few on these forums argue this point.)

So I apologize if I offend any of the Batman fans out there, but because of the "Batgod" I often feel the need to TRY to argue against him. It is my opinion that there are MANY, MANY foes that he should lose to, yet doesn't.

[Tiki Snakes]

For me, when written properly at least, the key to that is that sure. In a fair fight, plenty of people should beat batman. But if you're writing him right, it should never get to that. Batman isn't supposed to fight fair.

That's the secret of him punching above his weight, not scifi gadgets or infinite prep time.

[Fan]

For me, when written properly at least, the key to that is that sure. In a fair fight, plenty of people should beat batman. But if you're writing him right, it should never get to that. Batman isn't supposed to fight fair.

That's the secret of him punching above his weight, not scifi gadgets or infinite prep time.

Not fighting fair only does so much, it cannot compensate for a measure of speed difference approaching infinity.

It has nothing to do with him fighting dirty because EVERY non powered Superhero "fights dirty". It means nothing, it's just tossing dirt in your opponents eyes. It means nothing if the person can laser the dirt into glass and then blow it back into your eyes with hurricane force faster than your brain can fire a neuron.

[Tiki Snakes]

Not fighting fair only does so much, it cannot compensate for a measure of speed difference approaching infinity.

It has nothing to do with him fighting dirty because EVERY non powered Superhero "fights dirty". It means nothing, it's just tossing dirt in your opponents eyes. It means nothing if the person can laser the dirt into glass and then blow it back into your eyes with hurricane force faster than your brain can fire a neuron.

None of which are even close to being within the capabilities of Captain America, so quite irrelevant to my point. :smalltongue:

[Tanuki Tales]

Batman vs Captain America? Fan votes determined the outcome of this one, and unsurprisingly, Batman won. What is surprising is how often many others argue this as an example of Bruce being a superior fighter to Steve. (Thankfully, few on these forums argue this point.)

DC vs. Marvel was honest crap, so you should look at their run in during JLA/Avengers. I can't remember who did Batman then, but I believe Brubaker did Captain America and a lot of people hold that he's the definitive Captain America writer.

Anyways, they had Bats and Cap spar for a short time and Batman admit that Captain America could potentially best him.

Which is exactly how it would pan out. Bruce and Steve are almost dead equals in every regard except stamina. Steve has a monstrous advantage over Bruce in stamina and it's there that he'd win.


So I apologize if I offend any of the Batman fans out there, but because of the "Batgod" I often feel the need to TRY to argue against him. It is my opinion that there are MANY, MANY foes that he should lose to, yet doesn't.

It's fine. We all hate Batgod and are all embarrassed it's happened. And I'm not even a Batman fan really.