4 Bard Party

[BrokenChord]

This is based on the recent explosive discussion of how a party of four wizards at low level could do compared against the traditional four man party. But I have an idea of my own.

How would a party of low-level (let's say ECL 4 or 5) Bards do compared to the standard four man party, assuming both groups are of equal optimization? I'm figuring two Bards would be focused on covering lots of skills and utility, one would be focused on cheesing the heck out of Bardic Music and party-wide buffs, and one Bard would be the tank, with melee and combat applicable spells in full force since the utility ought to be covered.

But I could also be terribly wrong, since I'm not great at this sort of thing.

But yeah. Bards are quite versatile, and when specialized can, from my experience, match or exceed classes in their given roles. How would these guys do, in you fine Playgrounders' opinions?

[Yorrin]

...I want to play in this party so badly.

The music guy is easy. Silverbrow Human with Dragonfire Inspiration, Words of Creation, Song of the Heart, etc. Since he's already dragon blood go ahead and give him Draconic Aura: Vigor to take care of out of combat healing.

Have one of them be a more focused spellcaster with buff like Haste and debuffs like Glitterdust. He'd be the guy pumping Cha for the save DCs, so might as well have him pour his skill points into the social skills. Melodic Casting means he can use Perform rather than Concentration for casting, making him fairly SAD.

Melee bard will be the Snowflake Wardance user, who is the most likely to dump Int. Martial Study/Stance into Song of the White Raven might go well here.

I'm not even sure you need a fourth one. Maybe split the caster guy into one buffer and one debuffer?

[Flickerdart]

Not great. The low HD really hurts them, as does not having 3rd level spells. Your best bet would be sneaking up to try and get a surprise round and hope that some of you win initiative, using masterwork instruments, Badge of Courage, Song of the Heart, harmonize (optionally), and Dragonfire Inspiration to drop something like a +4/+4d6+4 bonus, and then hoping that you can alpha strike hard enough that it turns the odds in your favour. Given that this dice isn't precision, this gives the bards the option of an engagement range beyond typical charge distance, which means they might even live to see a second round.

If they aren't able to prepare though (getting optimal encounter distance, and triggering harmonize, the Badge of Courage, and the songs ahead of time) then they fall like wheat to a scythe.

One could also try using Inspire Awe and similar things to fear-stack the enemy, but at low level this is hard to pull off (you want at least 6th).

[BrokenChord]

Fourth one is kind of necessary simply because Bards don't get a lot of spells and somebody needs to be dedicating feats and spells to encounters that aren't combat. Summon Monster doesn't solve traps very consistently, and there are many needed skills. At least the face role can probably be covered by itself since there are skill points to spare in a 4 Bard party, but some roles need serious specialization.

[Irk]

Bards also get doomspeak, haunting melody, and metamagic song.
Doomspeak + haunting melody is -12 to everything which can allow one to push out a metamagic song quickened spell that will doubtlessly pass thanks to the -12 on saves. This can be done at level 6, minimum.

[Rebel7284]

Dragonfire inspiration in 4 flavors may just be crazy enough to work.

[Yorrin]

Fair points. By non-combat encounters you mean what, though? We've already addressed the party face stuff. Scouting and stealth could be a focus for one of them, I suppose. Bind Vestige + Imp. Bind Vestige + Practiced Binding gives you an expendable raven at-will whose eyes you can see through, which can be picked up at level one with flaws. Hide, Move Silently, and Tumble, and Escape Artist are all class skills if you wanted to mimic a rogue.

Combine with my three above and you've got the classic 4man party: Cleric (DFI+Draconic Aura: Vigor), Wizard (Haste, Grease, Glitterdust, etc), Fighter (Martial Study + Martial Stance + Song of the White Raven) and our new Rogue (Bird for scouting/triggering traps, stealth/acrobatics skills).

And while they don't necessarily fill those roles better than the original classes, each one can do a bit of each, filling each other's gaps as need be.

[Chronos]

You'd probably want to have ordinary Inspire Courage, too. There are ways to do both on a single character, but with four bards, it's probably better to just use one for it and one (or more) for dragonfire.

[Yorrin]

You'd probably want to have ordinary Inspire Courage, too. There are ways to do both on a single character, but with four bards, it's probably better to just use one for it and one (or more) for dragonfire.

Indeed. I kinda assumed one of the others had regular IC up while the "Cleric" had DFI going. Probably the "Wizard" since he already has Melodic Casting. But then again the "Rogue" is less critical in the opening round, so perhaps it should fall to him. They would likely have worked it out between the two of them beforehand, but have both capable of it.

[BrokenChord]

Looks like the general concensus so far is "works great right at level 6 but just can't cut it before that point". Unfortunate. Unless other proponents bring forward new ideas?

[Xuldarinar]

If I may, on the notion of a 4 bard party, present 4 bards.

Bard a: Bardic Sage (UA). At later levels going into sublime cord (CA), resulting in a Bardic Sage 10/Sublime Chord 10. If someone wanted to diverge a bit more, they could go into any casting PrC they wanted to after Sublime Chord 1.

Bard b: Cantor variant (DMG). Cleric spells for their selections, casts spells as divine but relies on Cha entirely. This broadens the spells available to the group and brings a different flavor to the table.

Bard c: Harbinger variant (DM 337). Go right for Dirgesinger (LM). Levels in a PrC that allow for multiple bardic musics to be used at the same time would be greatly helpful. Debuffs and bardic necromancy galore, focusing on bardic music rather than casting. Harbinger 6/Dirgesinger 5/Seeker of the Song 9 would be a pretty solid build, at least I think it would.

Bard d: Here you would want a bard that covers the weaknesses of the other 3. Perhaps a bard 1/paladin x, utilizing Devoted Performer, From Smite to Song, and Initiate of Milil. Using the Paladin of Freedom variant would certainly make things easier.


Edit: Now, bringing them down to ECL 5. You'd have a Bardic Sage 5, a Cantor 5, a Harbinger 5, and a Bard 1/Paladin 4. I think it wouldn't be half bad. As good as the standard line up, I'm not certain.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It would be spectacular, and incredibly powerful in combat if done right.

Four Silverbrow Human Savage Bards (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantSavageBard) , each has Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a), each Wild Cohort is a war-trained Warbeast Riding Dog with masterwork studded leather barding. Three of the bards each has Dragonfire Inspiration and Melodic Casting, two of those have a single-level dip into Sorcerer with the Dragonblood Sorcerer 1 sub level. Each bard has Inspirational Boost, Song of the Heart, and a Badge of Valor. At 6th level they each take Words of Creation. Each bard has an elvencraft shortbow with two wand chambers, even. The ones with a Sorcerer dip have partially charged wands of web and wings of cover.

At 3rd-5th level, each riding dog and each bard gets +4 to attack and damage, and +4d6 fire, +4d6 sonic, and +4d6 cold damage to all of their attacks. At 6th level this increases to +7 to attack and damage, and +7d6 of each of those three energy types. They'll absolutely destroy any encounter, ever.

Alternatively, make two of the bards like the one I posted here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=333513#12), the other two are a standard Inspire Courage optimization, one with DFI and one without. They all four still have Wild Cohorts. When they hit 6th level, they all take Leadership, and they all gain another Bard as a cohort. Each of those four new bards is a DFI build with a single dip into Sorcerer as above, also with wild cohort. So at 6th level, they have tons of fear effects, +4 to attack and damage, and +4d6 of each of the five energy types (+20d6 per attack) to damage. By 9th level the non-fear bards can all have Words of Creation, increasing that to +9 to attack and damage, +9d6 fire, and +7d6 of each of the other four energy types, bringing it up to +37d6 damage per attack. Plus by then their wild cohorts are all Warbeast Fleshrakers, each of which makes five attacks on a pounce.

[BrokenChord]

So apparently level 6 is some sort of majestic power point for Bard parties of all flavors. Good to know, though I still fear for their attempts to get that far without dying horribly.

[Troacctid]

It worked in Yellow Submarine. *shrug*

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

So apparently level 6 is some sort of majestic power point for Bard parties of all flavors. Good to know, though I still fear for their attempts to get that far without dying horribly.

At level 1, the four IC bards still have four riding dogs with trip, they still have shortbows, and they still give +1 to attack and damage and +1d6 fire damage, and can keep singing all day. At 2nd level it goes up to +2 to attack and damage, +2d6 fire damage, and +1d6 of two other energy types. By 3rd level they each should have a Badge of Valor, making it +4 and +4d6 three times.

At 1st level, the party with fear effects still has everything the above party has, plus four save vs shaken effects. Note that fear effects escalate, so it goes Shaken > Frightened > Panicked, and the escalated condition lasts for the full duration of the longest remaining contributing effect. As they level up their damage doesn't scale quite as quickly, but they're still plenty powerful.

[Galazgru]

Played in a gestalt campaign where every character was forced to have bard as one of their classes for every single level. It actually turned out pretty well for a campaign that was the furtherest thing from serious. Our backstory was that we were a band touring the countryside to make it big. We did exactly what the OP was thinking: one memeber focused on bardic buffs and music (lead singer), one was the tank (bass player), one was melee dps (guitarist), and the last player was half sorcerer and focused on summons (drummer). It was a pretty cheesy game but it was a blast.

[Fouredged Sword]

Also, at level 6 someone can take Planer Touchstone (CoE) for the Kobold domain and thus trapfinding. Seeing how Kobolds make alright bards and great sneaks, I suggest one party member as a sneaky kobold bard.

[Suteinu]

Of course, the most important consideration is: What will you name this traveling band? Bards on the Run? All A-bard? Put 'em all in plate mail and call it Heavy Metal? Tome of Clear Thought Revival? Bard Finger?

[Talya]

This is based on the recent explosive discussion of how a party of four wizards at low level could do compared against the traditional four man party. But I have an idea of my own.

How would a party of low-level (let's say ECL 4 or 5) Bards do compared to the standard four man party, assuming both groups are of equal optimization? I'm figuring two Bards would be focused on covering lots of skills and utility, one would be focused on cheesing the heck out of Bardic Music and party-wide buffs, and one Bard would be the tank, with melee and combat applicable spells in full force since the utility ought to be covered.

But I could also be terribly wrong, since I'm not great at this sort of thing.

But yeah. Bards are quite versatile, and when specialized can, from my experience, match or exceed classes in their given roles. How would these guys do, in you fine Playgrounders' opinions?

Quite well, I think, although at lower levels less well than at medium and higher levels once you've had time to adapt them to a specific role.

[Fouredged Sword]

Don't underestimate bards at 1st levels. They are lightly armored capable fighters with whips, rapiers, bows, and everyone can spam enough healing to keep everyone alive.

[Cikomyr]

4 Bards doing Fascinate at the same time --->


Orc 1: Is this four humans marching in our dungeon like a marching band?
Orc 2: Yup
Orc 1: Should we do something about it?
Orc 2: Maybe. But not right now. Pass the popcorn.

[Talya]

Don't underestimate bards at 1st levels. They are lightly armored capable fighters with whips, rapiers, bows, and everyone can spam enough healing to keep everyone alive.

Yeah, although their real strengths come online later, when they can quite capably perform any role in the game. Everyone is fragile at low levels, and a d6 hit die character in light armor more so. Unlike druids they have no built in fighter to tank for them, and they lack much the wizard's ability to make themselves near unhittable through magic. I think an all bard party runs the risk of being highly fragile early on.

Which isn't to say I'm underestimating them - I did say they'd do well, just not as well as later, when they are specialized into their roles better.

[Cikomyr]

Yeah, although their real strengths come online later, when they can quite capably perform any role in the game. Everyone is fragile at low levels, and a d6 hit die character in light armor more so. Unlike druids they have no built in fighter to tank for them, and they lack much the wizard's ability to make themselves near unhittable through magic. I think an all bard party runs the risk of being highly fragile early on.

Which isn't to say I'm underestimating them - I did say they'd do well, just not as well as later, when they are specialized into their roles better.

A group of bards shouldn't be doing dungeon crawling. They are going to work best in urban, pastoral or frontier environment. Instead of going to raid the dungeon yourselves, just build the local townspeople into a frenzy to go raid it for you. While they are busy doing that, you can go steal the local bank.

You will be able to fascinate any intelligent encounter you meet, and with a good dose or stealth, alchemist fires and acid flasks, you can ruin the day of anyone you distract for long enough.

[Fouredged Sword]

At level 1, most encounters deal ether very low damage, or enough damage to drop even a fighter on a bad roll. The most important thing is to start each combat with full HP and fight smart. You are a dex based close combat character, so you are likely not hitting hard, but that isn't a big deal at level 1 when a lot of opponents have 5 hp.

And a bunch of bards with cure light wounds as a spell known will have enough spell slots to start 4 fights at full HP.

[hemming]

At level 1, most encounters deal ether very low damage, or enough damage to drop even a fighter on a bad roll. The most important thing is to start each combat with full HP and fight smart. You are a dex based close combat character, so you are likely not hitting hard, but that isn't a big deal at level 1 when a lot of opponents have 5 hp.

And a bunch of bards with cure light wounds as a spell known will have enough spell slots to start 4 fights at full HP.

Yup - a party of bards is pretty formidable

I really want to be in a four bard party and become the most popular band in all the land

I think they would do very well vs. a standard party

[Cikomyr]

At level 1, most encounters deal ether very low damage, or enough damage to drop even a fighter on a bad roll. The most important thing is to start each combat with full HP and fight smart. You are a dex based close combat character, so you are likely not hitting hard, but that isn't a big deal at level 1 when a lot of opponents have 5 hp.

And a bunch of bards with cure light wounds as a spell known will have enough spell slots to start 4 fights at full HP.

Plus, everyone has crossbows. With the +1/+1 of bardic song, a dex-based build, these start to actually be pretty effective at level 1