Good Classes for a Goblin? (3.5)

[BrokenChord]

What it says on the tin. Nothing rogue-y, the Ranger has a bajillion ACFs and is taking that role better than I could ever hope to, and not one of the main arcane classes because there's a (dragonwrought desert) kobold Sorcerer using an Ancestral Relic Runestaff to cover all our arcane needs later on. I want to play a goblin. Dunno what to do about class and feats, though (starting at level 1). Maybe a little Cleric? Stats are kind of wrong for it though. I really like casters and this party is going to be too strong for me to get away with being a non-caster anyway, so... What should I do? Only restriction I have is no Druid. Again, probably wasn't gonna get recommended that way anyway since the goblin subraces don't really have the right stats for that, but I just immensely dislike the feeling, mechanics, and fluff of Druid. Plus I'm not really adjusted to playing them right anyway.

So? What's a good, strong basis for a goblin character?

[ArendK]

For 3.5,

It depends really. Do you care about validity and optimization or role-playing?
A goblin barbarian could have value, especially as a bruiser. Not the strongest OP, but fun to play. Warlock could serve an interesting set up; depending on how you build it (pick your invocations), very few of your powers really require you to have a high charisma.

Clerics ok; definitely rock the Trickery domain for invisibility. Goblins are fun because they still have their 30 ft movement speed at a small size.

One of my favorite builds for smaller creatures was Dread Necromancer (up until the negative energy touch, I forget what level it is), then Tomb Tainted Soul and Warlock the rest of the way. Again; depending on invocations picked, you can serve a lot of roles. At will Invisibility and Fly? :D

IIRC, Hobgoblin is a LA 0 choice; and not a bad one either if you are doing a monstrous campaign.

Note- I am a terrible Tier level optimizer; I'm more a fan of having fun with the character and at least being semi-proficient at their given specialization.
If you are looking at optimization in terms of Tiers and such, ignore my statements.

[Telonius]

What stats do you have (or what generation method do you use), and what level are you starting?

So, not a main arcane caster, not a Ranger, not a Druid. You're looking at a Divine Caster (Cleric, Favored Soul, Paladin), a Bard, an Artificer, a Binder, or a maybe even something like a Warlock or Dragonfire Adept.

Cleric or Artificer are the most powerful there, and Bard can quickly be ramped up with the right PrCs and feats.

I do notice a lack of Trapfinding in the party you've described. If that's going to be an issue, I'd suggest that somebody take at least a level of Rogue (or anything else that grants it).

[BrokenChord]

What stats do you have (or what generation method do you use), and what level are you starting?

So, not a main arcane caster, not a Ranger, not a Druid. You're looking at a Divine Caster (Cleric, Favored Soul, Paladin), a Bard, an Artificer, a Binder, or a maybe even something like a Warlock or Dragonfire Adept.

Cleric or Artificer are the most powerful there, and Bard can quickly be ramped up with the right PrCs and feats.

I do notice a lack of Trapfinding in the party you've described. If that's going to be an issue, I'd suggest that somebody take at least a level of Rogue (or anything else that grants it).

The Ranger's got Trapfinding covered by way of ACFs if I remember correctly. Stuff like Bard and Warlock, while good, feel somewhat redundant with the utility Sorcerer around. (Eventually)

@ArendK: We're starting at level 1, but even if I could play it, don't Hobgoblins have LA 1? It could work anyway but given that the rest of my party is Cheesewrought Kobold and feat-hog human I don't want to take liberties with my race about RHD/LA unless I'm getting a LOT for it.

As for effectiveness, well, I need to keep up with decently optimized T2/high-end T3 level. Which is bad, because I suck at the optimization thing. I'm not even good with playstyle...

[Limited Gish]

Have you looked into Psionics? They can be loads of fun and a nice change of pace. Incarnum is another fun subsystem that gives you a lot of fun and flavor.

[Fouredged Sword]

Goblins have small size and a 30ft move speed. That suggests to me a ranged character who benifits from the AC and to hit bonus, but wants to stay mobile.

I am going to suggest cloistered cleric actually. Don't worry about stats. You don't have a wis penalty and that is all that matters.

I am thinking the trickery and war domain. Go for DMM persist of divine power and be back up melee.

[Drogorn]

Could do a psychic rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) and use the compression power. You'd end up with ridiculous dexterity and be able to sneak into anything that admits so much as a mouse. You'd probably want to carry a shortbow and longspear. Compression doesn't alter your speed, either.

[BrokenChord]

Could do a psychic rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) and use the compression power. You'd end up with ridiculous dexterity and be able to sneak into anything that admits so much as a mouse. You'd probably want to carry a shortbow and longspear. Compression doesn't alter your speed, either.

While I appreciate the power inherent here, I am rather expressly avoiding the stealth and skillmonkey roles. Thank you though.

Cloistered Cleric looks nicest, though I'm not sure about backup melee. The fourth player will probably be a melee-type, and although it will probably be a gish (in the Psychic Warrior sense) I still don't want to be superior to him.

[chando]

Ok, you might not want to got stealthy, but its really what goblins are best suited for, so even if you don't go that way with class, some ranks in Move Silent/Hide or an item bonus should help survive and sneak around if needed be. Even if you choose to be a cleric, casting silence/invisibility will help you and your teamates get around.

That said, I think you should go ranged, as in my experience being small and in melee tends to not work out great if you are not a Gnome Killer or swordsage, as you can get grappled/tripped a lot more easily.
Either go with [c]cleric, Knowledge Devotion, War/Trickery, use GAUNTLETS OF WAR from complete Champion, pick up Zen Archery at level 3 and Holy Warrior from complete champion at 9 or 12th level, you should be doing a nice damage on top of having cleric fullcasting. Even without DMM Persist this is good, it just gets better if you squeeze it in there. Maybe skip Zen Archery if your Dex is high[rolled stats mostly] to get the DDM: persist by level 6.

Or go you an Bard. You will have enough casting, you can focus on targeting will saves while the sorcerer targets the other saves and lays battlefield control. You can Buff you companions as well, so the sorcerer doesn't need to pick up haste for example. I would talk to the DM see if you can be a sunscorshed goblin instead of a sunscorshed Hobgoblin[from dragon magic], gaining the dragonblood subtype and allowing you to take Dragonfire Inspiration and boost you and your companions to deal something like 5-8d6 fire damage in each attack [assuming you don't want to be exalted because of the bagage, otherwise get Words of Creation or whatever is called end go upt to 12d6]. Don't worry that its Fire Damage, tou can always provide +6-12 att/dmg instead against fire immunes/resistent foes.
You can do it without Dragonfire Inspiration, but its always fun rolling tons of d6 for damage. If you are worried about bardic casting falling behind later on, go with Bard 8/ Virtuoso 2 / Sublime Chord 2 / Virtuoso +8 for a simple and effective build that gets you all the fun of a full caster in the end, great bardic songs. You and your sorcerer don't have to take the same spells ever [except for maybe a Greater Dispel if you don't have another caster], even if he is a cheesed out kobold, you can never have enough arcane spells laying waste on the battlefield. You can take more buff spells or you can combine high level spell combos on the 1 round without neither having to quicken a spell.

In any build, geting a Worg, or a Wolf/medium mount via Wild Cohort or just roleplaying you be nice for mobility so you can full attack from the back of your mount while it moves a little. I realize you are already strapped for feats, the bard could probably dominate some sort of mount, or you could just buy one with the warbeast tamplate from MMII, or buy any other priced mount.
[ don't pick leadership just for this, the Worg isn't worth the feat on its own, just pick another character and have they pick up wild cohort or something like that so that you can mount :D You can always just use Phanton Steed as well, even from an Eternal Wand]

just my couple cents.

[Nagukuk]

Gah'bo the goblin bard he plays the drum pum pah pum pum

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It looks like your party needs both a divine caster and a smart character. You could go (Air (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfAir)) Goblin Archivist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3) into Hexer from Masters of the Wild (Wilderness Lore = Survival). That would allow you to learn spells from any domain list, plus Druid, Paladin, Ranger, Adept (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/npcClasses/adept.htm), and Divine Bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantDivineBard) spells.

Obligatory Archivist Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=ivhemnghk3d29hk5tdqlqde6b2&topic=3545.0), another Archivist Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=185.0), and the lowest level versions of all divine spells (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1023251). Take Leadership for an Artificer (or Warlock if very high level) cohort, who can cooperatively help you make divine scrolls of just about any spell that exists, considering another Hexer could learn any Wizard spell as a divine spell.

[Optimator]

A worg-riding goblin might be fun. They get a bonus to the Ride skill afterall. Make a mounted charger or even an Ubermount-style build.

I once made a goblin Binder Sorcerer Anima Mage. Super fun.