Roy will (hopefully) realize Durkula isn't Durkon

[MrMercury]

I was thinking about Durkula slipping up on his accent. I paid no heed to why that would be a problem. But then I remembered this strip:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0305.html
And I realized Durkon didn't even REALIZE he had an accent. To him, it was simply the way he talked. It was different from other people. But it wasn't an accent. Therefore, if Durkula slips up with Durkons accent again, hopefully Roy with his High Intelligence, can figure out that his accent isn't just an accent to Durkon, and might wonder if anything else from 'Durkon" has changed. And then, with his suspicions raised, might notice more and more things that have changed.

I dunno why I wrote this, I guess I just wanted a different reason why Durkula will be revealed than the other theories

[galan]

wrong forum

and for the matter, i believe it won't happen that way. durkula won't make the same mistake twice in my opinion

[Socksy]

He's already said he slipped up on the accent 'a few times' IIRC.

NotDurkon could always blame it on not knowing quite how to work his vocal chords yet, like a Discworld zombie, I guess.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

It's an interesting idea, and one that has been brought up before. However, I feel that as time goes on, the High Priest of Hel will become better with the accent, which was never terribly consistent to begin with. He might even learn how to speak "normally", like Malak could. Also, it's interesting to note that the High Priest of Hel had to be told to speak in an inside voice (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0879.html).

[factotum]

The problem here is that not-Durkon is likely to only slip up at times of extreme stress (e.g. "GIVE ME MY STAFF!"), and the others would probably be too busy themselves at those times to notice it. I doubt he's going to let the accent slip in normal conversation.

[Draz74]

The real problem here is an ongoing gag about Roy (as well as Belkar, Elan, and V) having terrible Sense Motive skills.

Come to think of it, it wouldn't surprise me if Haley is eventually the one to figure out something is really wrong with Durkula. Paranoia has its advantages.

[veti]

I don't think any of them will 'figure it out' until the monster reveals itself.

With the possible exception of Belkar. Which might also solve the question of how, or at least why, Belkar's going to die.

[konradknox]

Roy already understands that the two are not the same, but what alternatives does he have? "He's helping."
Stake Durkon, and the party has no full time healer. And resurrection? They don't know any clerics who can perform one.

Well, actually Roy does know the two lizardfolk clerics who resurrected the Oracle, since his memory was not wiped due to dismissal. But whether or not Roy remembers this from his Afterlife is a question. They could go back to the Oracle and ask him to summon the lizardfolk clerics to resurrect Durkon. But that would mean precious time they hardly have.

[factotum]

Roy already understands that the two are not the same

I don't think he does. He thinks Durkula is basically Durkon but with an added requirement to drink blood. If he'd seen the smile on Durkula's face when he snapped Zz'dtri's neck he might revise that opinion, but since he *didn't* see that, he's just seeing his old friend with a slight problem.

If he were told that some dark spirit inhabited Durkon's shell, and that dark spirit was keeping the *real* Durkon prisoner, then I'm pretty darned sure he'd take action to rectify that, healer or no healer.

[Silferdrake]

I wouldn't hold my breath. Back when Nale was impersonating Elan no one was noticing the strange behaviour (or rather the lack of one) that he displayed. Of course, the order didn't have as much reason to suspect something then but I still don't think anyone will notice it until some major damage has been caused.

[Chantelune]

Also, Roy feeling guilty over Durkon's death will probably be more than happy to cling to every little thing "proving" that it's still Durkon in there rather than focusing over the differences. Kind of how he was ready to kill Belkar on the spot in his insistance to see his claim that Durkon died as some sick joke. Only with less death threats in this case.

Sure, once they come across a cleric who can resurrect, he might jump on the opportunity, but until then, my guess is that he'll let his guilt blind him.

[Onyavar]

Sure, once they come across a cleric who can resurrect, he might jump on the opportunity, but until then, my guess is that he'll let his guilt blind him.

Well, I'm playing oracle here and predict that Durkon will happen to kill every high-enough-level cleric they encounter - accidentally. Just to prevent that Roy jumps on the opportunity.

[Amphiox]

It would be an interesting subversion of audience expectations if it turns out that Roy, in fact, knew all along, and that, in addition to his Knowledge: Architecture and Engineering, he also happens to have Knowledge: Vampiric Lore, that he picked up at some point along the way.

And he's only appearing to go along with Durkula because 1) he recognizes that his team really needs the services of a powerful cleric and 2) he also recognizes that tactically and strategically now is a very bad time to confront a vampire Durkon that has just gained a level-adjustment of 8 (for instance, he probably knows that Belkar will get dominated within 2 rounds of combat, and that the Mechane is currently filled with an entire crew of bystanders that vampire Durkon could dominate and force the Order to kill if a fight broke out right now).

[Ramien]

Look, any slipup on the accent can be blamed on the fangs changing the way his mouth moves. That's a pretty easy bluff to make.

[factotum]

And he's only appearing to go along with Durkula because 1) he recognizes that his team really needs the services of a powerful cleric and 2) he also recognizes that tactically and strategically now is a very bad time to confront a vampire Durkon that has just gained a level-adjustment of 8

Wow. You must really hate Roy to think he'd treat one of his oldest friends like that, regardless of the state of the team. Besides, the *best* time to deal with Durkula would have been immediately after the Tarquin fight, when he's low on spells and has had no chance to get more--leaving it until after he's had time to pray and get spells would be the height of idiocy, and Roy's no idiot!

[Niknokitueu]

Wow. You must really hate Roy to think he'd treat one of his oldest friends like that, regardless of the state of the team. Besides, the *best* time to deal with Durkula would have been immediately after the Tarquin fight, when he's low on spells and has had no chance to get more--leaving it until after he's had time to pray and get spells would be the height of idiocy, and Roy's no idiot!
Actually, the best time to deal with Durkula would have been just after he had mended Haley's arm and restored Belkar's levels.

Before that the party was running at well below max strength. After it, I think the party would have had a good chance of taking him down, even with his restored spell list. Even better, wait until Vaarsuvius and Elan relearn spells in the morning. In the parlayance of my gaming group, they could 'Invite Durkon to a Hearty Breakfast*'.

Roy's choice to let Durkula 'live' will, yet again, end up coming back to bite him in the butt. (Grin)

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu
* You guessed it, it was code for distract the target and pile on. Never, ever, failed.

[Jay R]

If this were a game, we'd be looking for the most reasonable time for the players to figure it out, so they can quickly end the threat.

But this is a story, with two more books to go. Nobody will figure it out until after it causes all the complications Rich wants it to cause.

He's been planning this one for over ten years. It isn't going to be a short interlude.

[Amphiox]

Wow. You must really hate Roy to think he'd treat one of his oldest friends like that, regardless of the state of the team. Besides, the *best* time to deal with Durkula would have been immediately after the Tarquin fight, when he's low on spells and has had no chance to get more--leaving it until after he's had time to pray and get spells would be the height of idiocy, and Roy's no idiot!

The problem with this argument is the fact that Durkula had not in fact used many spells at all during the Tarquin fight, so he wasn't low. Not at any point since he was vamped has he been actually low on spells. But V had, so V was low. And Belkar was not yet restored (and he's so easy to dominate anyways that it really doesn't matter if he's restored or not). And the Mechane's crew was around as potential collateral damage AND domination targets for Durkula.

Furthermore, the rest of the team was not psychologically prepared for another battle, especially against Durkula.

Immediately after the Tarquin fight, Durkula was actually the member of the Order who was in the best shape of all.

And even more importantly, there's no cleric nearby, so the Order gets no healing, and if anyone happens to fall in the fight (a likelihood even if they win), they would be hard pressed to get them rezzed in time to deal with Xykon.

It does Durkon no good if Roy attempts to free him but fails and dies in the attempt.

It does Durkon no good if Roy frees him but cripples the team in the process, and Xykon proceeds to get the world destroyed.

To get an optimal shot at Durkula, Roy needs to have confirmation that he is low on spells, ie he needs to have observed that Durkula has cast all his spells, and he needs to have the time to cook up a pre-set plan with at least V, that they can unleash on the vampire with the element of surprise.

[Onyavar]

The problem with this argument is the fact that Durkula had not in fact used many spells at all during the Tarquin fight, so he wasn't low. Not at any point since he was vamped has he been actually low on spells. But V had, so V was low.

[...]

Immediately after the Tarquin fight, Durkula was actually the member of the Order who was in the best shape of all.

Sorry to burst your argument but... Nope, those were Elan and Roy (with Julios potions) as well as V.

V had 25 spells remaining (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0935.html) while Hel's Lackey had none since the start of the battle... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0917.html)

As we probably all know however, it's a moot point however, since Hel's Lackey won't be exposed for at least a week longer, in comic time. :smallannoyed:

[Vinyadan]

...

V has some experience in discerning apparently identical people, and could have some knowledge about how undead work (although I wouldn't bet on it, as he barred Necromancy). Most importantly, he may be able to resist the dominating gaze and has the stopping power to hit Dorkula hard, plus he could dispel his UV-protection.

So I hope it is V who understands, and also acts on it. The problem is that someone already understood, and cannot act (Belkar).

[factotum]

The problem with this argument is the fact that Durkula had not in fact used many spells at all during the Tarquin fight, so he wasn't low. Not at any point since he was vamped has he been actually low on spells. But V had, so V was low.

Onyavar has already answered this very effectively, so I think my point stands: immediately after the Tarquin fight was far and away the Order's best chance at taking down Durkula, if they had any intention of doing so. So, the fact they didn't take that opportunity means they don't suspect he isn't who he appears to be.

[Jay R]

Onyavar has already answered this very effectively, so I think my point stands: immediately after the Tarquin fight was far and away the Order's best chance at taking down Durkula, ....

... which is probably why there was no fight then.

This is not a game. It's a story, with two more books to go. Rich is not trying to get to the ending as quickly and efficiently as possible.

More to the point, he's been planning for Durkon to "turn undead" for over ten years. This plot thread is a major story development, and it isn't going to be resolved any time in the near future.

[Joschek]

I have reason to believe V will be the one to notice.

The Priest of Hel himself identifies his slipping out of accent to be a problem, and then the 4th panel makes more sense, b/c it hints at V's sensibilty for & perception of language..

[King of Nowhere]

I don't think he does. He thinks Durkula is basically Durkon but with an added requirement to drink blood. If he'd seen the smile on Durkula's face when he snapped Zz'dtri's neck he might revise that opinion, but since he *didn't* see that, he's just seeing his old friend with a slight problem.

If he were told that some dark spirit inhabited Durkon's shell, and that dark spirit was keeping the *real* Durkon prisoner, then I'm pretty darned sure he'd take action to rectify that, healer or no healer.

Maybe. or maybe he's argue that they still need every help against xykon, durkula seems inclined to help, they have no way to resurrect the real durkon, and the dark spirit is probably no more evil than belkar. there just aren't good choices.


The real problem here is an ongoing gag about Roy (as well as Belkar, Elan, and V) having terrible Sense Motive skills.

Come to think of it, it wouldn't surprise me if Haley is eventually the one to figure out something is really wrong with Durkula. Paranoia has its advantages.
on the other hand, a definite disadvantage of paranoia is that people stop paying attention to your warnings, even the time you're actually right. just like people ignore car alarms because they always set off without reason.

[TRH]

Hm. New idea - maybe Belkar will eventually get tired of trying to convince Roy that Durkon can't be trusted, and go to the others individually? Haley's paranoia means she may be amenable to his arguments, and Vaarsuvius could be convinced for the reasons that have come up already. Of course, Roy won't appreciate Belkar going behind his back on things, to say nothing of what Durkon would do...

[veti]

Onyavar has already answered this very effectively, so I think my point stands: immediately after the Tarquin fight was far and away the Order's best chance at taking down Durkula, if they had any intention of doing so.

And the sun was still up, which meant that Durkula was one snatch and a Dispel Magic from going the Full Malack.

How symmetric would that be? Nale and Zz'dtri killed Malack, and Elan and V could have nailed Durkula with precisely the same combo.

[zimmerwald1915]

V has some experience in discerning apparently identical people, and could have some knowledge about how undead work (although I wouldn't bet on it, as he barred Necromancy). Most importantly, he may be able to resist the dominating gaze and has the stopping power to hit Dorkula hard, plus he could dispel his UV-protection.
Knowledge about how undead work has nothing to do with the ability to cast spells of the Necromancy school. Expertise in the related fields identifying undead is modeled by ranks in the Knowledge (religion) skill. V has some ranks in Knowledge (religion). We know this because Blackwing, who has skill ranks in whatever skill ranks a raven normally has plus the same number of ranks V has in whatever skills V has, was able to identify Malack’s mummy as the undead creature "mummy" (that is, a body that has undergone both mummification and has been subjected to a spell to create the undead creature, as opposed to a body that has only undergone mummification). Conversely, it is fairly clear that V either does not have many ranks in Knowledge (religion), because she was unable to identify the mummy as a mummy, misidentifying it as a revenant (which might rise spontaneously from a body in any condition, including a mummified body).

That bit of rules pedantry aside, the point you make that V's abilities make her well-suited to any plan to destroy the undead thing going by "Durkon" (though it is also possible to imagine a fight between the vampire on one side and Elan, Haley, Belkar, and Roy on the other that ends in the destruction of the vampire). You are also correct that her skill in logical reasoning could serve her well in piecing together any clues to the real state of things in re Durkon (though Roy could bring roughly the same skill set to bear).1 But…


So I hope it is V who understands, and also acts on it. The problem is that someone already understood, and cannot act (Belkar).
Here we come to a problem. What would prompt V to embark upon an investigation into the true state of things in re Durkon? It would represent a major character retrogression on V's part if her reasoning went along the lines of "Vampires are suspicious, Durkon is a vampire, therefore Durkon is suspicious; suspicious people deserve investigation, Durkon is suspicious, therefore Durkon deserves investigating." Any Knowledge (religion) check V or Blackwing rolled, relying on such reasoning, would amount to investigation based on racial profiling. One signal V could send that would go a long way towards convincing me of her development away from the kind of person who indulges in racial profiling would be to refuse to investigate based solely on the knowledge that Durkon is a vampire. Of course, there are Knowledge checks, and then there are Knowledge checks. Some Knowledge checks represent unbidden epiphanies, flashes of memory about or insight into a topic. Others represent the result of deliberate, volitional searching of one's memory. Others represent the first as the culmination of the second. Just to be clear, when I talk about investigation, I'm talking about the second kind of Knowledge check, the deliberate, volitional search.

Regardless of the fact that we the readers know the vampire to be guilty of kidnapping Durkon's soul, in-universe the vampire is still a person who deserves the characters' presumption of innocence. To have meaning, the presumption of innocence must include a guarantee against any investigation not prompted by a reasonable suspicion occasioned by one's own conduct. Until the vampire does something that replaces "vampire" in the set of syllogisms above, he is entitled to be free from investigation into any wrongdoing. Does this seem perverse in light of what we the readers know about the true state of things? Absolutely. Is it likely that the vampire will slip up and reveal to the Order new suspicious information? Given that drama will happen around him, yes, eventually his true nature will probably be revealed—though that reveal will probably coincide with the enactment of Hel's plan. At that point, if V refused to investigate Durkon, it may occur to V that she could have stopped the enactment of Hel's plan had she investigated Durkon's true nature earlier, on the basis of racial profiling. Given that hindsight, would it still have been the right choice? That's a hard question, and given board rules I think it should be analyzed in terms of character development and not as a moral problem. As for myself, again, I think refusing to investigate Durkon's situation merely on the basis of his being a vampire would be a positive step in V's character growth. And of course, such a reveal, accompanied or not by V's beating herself up over whether she could have prevented it, would make for great drama.

Then again, there is more story hay to be made here. V has already shown her willingness, nay, eagerness, to defer to Roy's opinion on moral matters. So if Roy came to her, the safety of his team and the well-being of his best friend in mind, and said "please investigate Durkon," I do not know if V would trust herself to object even if it occurred to her that racial profiling is wrong. That could be an interesting conflict. V trusts her confessor more than her conscience, and he seems to have compelling reasons for what he wants. Her conscience, which is newly sensitive to the problems of racial profiling after the events in the pyramid, but which has also proven unreliable in the past, tells her that her confessor wants her to do wrong. Who does she go with? The resolution of that dilemma could be interesting to watch, and would provide V something to do which no other character could do, because no other character has her history. Haley could have stood in before her character development, but at this point in the story she is not the kind of character who needs a confessor or has issues about when to trust her moral judgment or others'. Besides, Haley's issues with trust were more general and psychological, while V has reason to doubt her judgment on this specific issue. Of course, this would put Roy in a compromising position, but his record is cleaner than V's so he can afford to backslide more than she can.

1I include these parenthetical asides only because I think the forum community expects me to include them and it would be discourteous of me to flout that expectation. Please have fun knocking them down. They are my gift to you.

[Loreweaver15]

To be fair, there's also investigation and investigation. There's a marked difference between "VAMPIRE MUST BE LYING" and "Hrm. Vampire channels negative energy like an Evil cleric, and is also an undead; will treat his motives as suspiciously as Belkar's, and make sure this entity is not lying."

[zimmerwald1915]

To be fair, there's also investigation and investigation. There's a marked difference between "VAMPIRE MUST BE LYING" and "Hrm. Vampire channels negative energy like an Evil cleric, and is also an undead; will treat his motives as suspiciously as Belkar's, and make sure this entity is not lying."
Is there? Your second argument boils down to "A vampire has the traits of a vampire, some of these traits are suspicious in and of themselves, therefore vampires are suspicious." The rest of the racial profiling syllogisms follow from there. Also, it does not follow that channeling negative energy and being undead are suspicious in and of themselves to the point where they warrant investigation. Neutral clerics can channel negative energy. The argument "A vampire channels negative energy like some Neutral cleric, Neutral clerics who choose to channel negative energy are suspicious, vampires are suspicious" seems spurious to me, because a cleric could choose to channel negative energy for a whole host of innocent reasons. More importantly, to even get to the point where you can say "a vampire channels negative energy like an Evil cleric," i.e., before you can invoke Monster Manual prescriptive language instead of the descriptive "a vampire channels negative energy in the same way Evil clerics and some Neutral clerics do," you have to make a Knowledge check. So you can't even make this argument in support of your action without having first taken the action.

The whole issue over profiling based on creature type alone has been hashed out a dozen times.

[Loreweaver15]

Is there? Your second argument boils down to "A vampire has the traits of a vampire, some of these traits are suspicious in and of themselves, therefore vampires are suspicious." The rest of the racial profiling syllogisms follow from there. Also, it does not follow that channeling negative energy and being undead are suspicious in and of themselves to the point where they warrant investigation. Neutral clerics can channel negative energy. The argument "A vampire channels negative energy like some Neutral cleric, Neutral clerics who choose to channel negative energy are suspicious, vampires are suspicious" seems spurious to me. The whole issue over profiling based on creature type alone has been hashed out a dozen times.

...Forgive me if I've misunderstood, but Durkula accidentally channeling negative energy when he went to spontaneously convert a spell can only be done if he's Evil, yes?

[zimmerwald1915]

...Forgive me if I've misunderstood, but Durkula accidentally channeling negative energy when he went to spontaneously convert a spell can only be done if he's Evil, yes?
I've edited my post since you quoted it. In order to even make the specific statement that vampires "channel negative energy like Evil clerics" instead of "channel negative energy" or "channel negative energy like Evil clerics and some Neutral clerics" you have to presume the kind of Monster Manual knowledge you're supposedly rolling a Knowledge check to discover. That's absurd on its face.

[Loreweaver15]

I've edited my post since you quoted it. In order to even make the specific statement that vampires "channel negative energy like Evil clerics" instead of "channel negative energy" or "channel negative energy like Evil clerics and some Neutral clerics" you have to presume the kind of Monster Manual knowledge you're supposedly rolling a Knowledge check to discover. That's absurd on its face.

I was about to concede that point, but then I remembered that Roy already demonstrated that he knew that's how it worked (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0908.html). Whether he's demonstrating that he knows vamping turns you Evil and thus the spontaneous Cure would be a Harm or because he knew that vamping makes you channel as if you were Evil, he knew.

[zimmerwald1915]

I was about to concede that point, but then I remembered that Roy already demonstrated that he knew that's how it worked (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0908.html). Whether he's demonstrating that he knows vamping turns you Evil and thus the spontaneous Cure would be a Harm or because he knew that vamping makes you channel as if you were Evil, he knew.
I don't think that scene tells us what you want it to tell us. All it tells us is that Roy recognized Durkon's inflict spell as an inflict spell between the moment Durkon cast it and the moment he touched Roy with the charge. But that only means Roy has ranks in Spellcraft, something we already knew from On the Origin of PCs, and that he made a Spellcraft check. That scene does not tell us anything about Roy's knowledge of vampires generally (Knowledge [religion] is a trained-only skill, by the way, and unlike Spellcraft there's no indication that Roy has ranks in it), nor does it tell us that he knows that a vampire channels negative energy "as an Evil cleric." For all Roy knows, a vampire's sire might choose the type of energy it channels at the time of spawning.

[Loreweaver15]

I don't think that scene tells us what you want it to tell us. All it tells us is that Roy recognized Durkon's inflict spell as an inflict spell. But that only means Roy has ranks in Spellcraft, something we already knew from On the Origin of PCs, and that he made a Spellcraft check. That scene does not tell us anything about Roy's knowledge of vampires generally (Knowledge [religion] is a trained-only skill, by the way, and unlike Spellcraft there's no indication that Roy has ranks in it), nor does it tell us that he knows that a vampire channels negative energy "as an Evil cleric."

So, you're saying that Roy understands that he's about to be hit with an Inflict spell that the person Inflicting thinks is a Cure...but not why that happened.

I don't understand that logic.

[zimmerwald1915]

So, you're saying that Roy understands that he's about to be hit with an Inflict spell that the person Inflicting thinks is a Cure...but not why that happened.

I don't understand that logic.
Hey, I don't make the crazy rules, I just twist them to my purpose :smallamused:

In any event, there are plenty of things Roy knows to be true, but doesn't know the reasons why they are true. For example, he knows there is a planet on the other side of the Rifts, but not why it is there. His ignorance as to why the planet is there doesn't mean it disappears. Similarly, Roy's ignorance about why Durkon channels negative energy now - and who he channels it like - doesn't make him ignorant of the fact that he does.

[Haldir]

Knowing that Rich is has seen Babylon 5, I can't help but compare Durkon to Garibaldi.

"Be seeing you, Mr. Garabaldi."

[Loreweaver15]

Hey, I don't make the crazy rules, I just twist them to my purpose :smallamused:

In any event, there are plenty of things Roy knows to be true, but doesn't know the reasons why they are true. For example, he knows there is a planet on the other side of the Rifts, but not why it is there. His ignorance as to why the planet is there doesn't mean it disappears. Similarly, Roy's ignorance about why Durkon channels negative energy now - and who he channels it like - doesn't make him ignorant of the fact that he does.

Well, as long as you acknowledge that it's freakin' weird that it works that way :P

[zimmerwald1915]

Well, as long as you acknowledge that it's freakin' weird that it works that way :P
So acknowledged :smallsmile:

[Pandoren]

Rather than accent, one thing that did occur to me was that in the last strip, the Priest of Hel says "cannot resist providing me with his memories when I call upon them" implying that he has to actually search for the memories first rather than spontaneously remembering them as a normal person would... so potentially he might be unmasked by an eccentricity of Durkon's that the Priest of Hel wouldn't think to look for or occur to react to... for example, his Dwarven hatred of trees. That said, he is a spirit of Hel... but saying that, Hel doesn't seem to understand the whole tree thing anyway...