[PF] Ruling on CR gained by race/template

[gadeschaos]

I recently started running a new campaign and i've got into a problem with one of the characters.

I know the rule about using monsters as PC, that says that every 3 levels you gain an additional level, a number of times that equals half the monster base cr rounded down.

But is that the same if the additional CR is gained not for using a monster, but for stacking CR with race and templates?
For example with a +1CR Race and a +2 CR template, would he be allowed to gain the additional level when the group is between level 6th and 7th? ( counting that the with that CR the pc's started at level 4, 6th to 7th level is between 2nd and 3rd level gained by the group if i understood correctly the rules).

I'm leaning toward not letting the CR gained by race and template be lowered, since the rules says it's that way because racial HD are less valuable than class levels in the long run, but those two don't add HD, just a lot of other things, but i was wondering what the general consensus is in this matter if there's one.

Thanks :smallbiggrin:

[Vortenger]

There is no official ruling that I am aware of, but my groups use the: for every 3 levels play 1 level of catch-up up to half the CR value the same way monsters are run. As of yet is has not been an issue for us, but most of us shy away from LA or CR adjustments due to experience in 3.5.

[Yanisa]

First off, the whole monsters as player characters doesn't talk about templates, nor are there any rules for templates. This is going to end up as DM interpretation no matter what.

At the other sides, the rules mention only CR as being important. Templates do add more CR to a creature, so the same rules still easily could apply. Meaning that a 3 CR creature would only get 1 extra level, but slap the Advanced Template on and it would be a 4 CR creature and get 2 extra levels.

When it comes to templates it gets a bit more iffy, if it adds really strong and scalability abilities it might not be right to also get bonus class level. Remember you get the bonus class levels because the value of RHD AND Race Abilities diminish, not just RHD. For example a fire breath is really awesome at levels 1 and might win an entire encounter... but at level 20 when everyone got some form of fire protection and the damage is stuck at 10d6 it is worth a lot less in combat.


...counting that the with that CR the pc's started at level 4, 6th to 7th level is between 2nd and 3rd level gained by the group if i understood correctly the rules...
I disagree with you, I don't think starting level should matter. When you start at level 5, and one of the players has a CR 2 PC with 3 class levels, I think he should get that bonus level (and have 4 class levels), because by then the power of his RHD and abilities already diminished compared to when the party would started at level 2... Also the party gained 3 levels above the starting level of 2 CR.
You shouldn't have to wait all the way to level 8 to get that bonus level. But it might be different depending on the power of the monster and its abilities.

But RAW, you are right.

Also CR doesn't get lowered, it isn't like 3.5 LA buy off. You just got a bonus class level. (Shush, similar but not the same.)



Also wait... (sudden realization after typing) your are dealing with 0 RHD race/creature/monster? That is an entirely different subject with even less rules... May I inquire what is race/monster is the PC playing? 0 RHD creatures don't get any bonus levels and there aren't any rules to for penalties due strong abilities (except vague advise).

[gadeschaos]

The pg is a Drow Noble ( which i will rule to be CR+1, since there's no official errata but reading the designer post and the power of the race i think it's the right malus) Dread Vampire ( CR +3) which will at least be brought to Vampire (CR+2) since we started quickly and i didn't realize D-Vampire was 3rdParty.

The party started at level six actually.

[Yanisa]

The pg is a Drow Noble ( which i will rule to be CR+1, since there's no official errata but reading the designer post and the power of the race i think it's the right malus) Dread Vampire ( CR +3) which will at least be brought to Vampire (CR+2) since we started quickly and i didn't realize D-Vampire was 3rdParty.

The party started at level six actually.

Yeah, the whole rules about bonus levels and the vague attempt at level adjustment is meant for creatures with racial hit die. Neither the Drow Noble nor the vampire template have RHD. So bonus levels don't happen. But also there is no limitation on what level he can be and he could be the same class level as the group, again those limits are for RHD creatures... (They do advise to don't allow powerful 0 RHD races in a level 1 group, but that's all they "rule"... And you found the forum advise from Jason Bulmahn about keeping drow noble a level one, but that's advise and no rule.)

I do agree with you with treating him as a CR 3 creature (and technically give him 3 LA) Beyond that it's all up to you, keep a close watch on his power. If he starts to lag behind allow that bonus class level, if he keeps being strong then the CR/LA is well placed. But there are no real rules and I am no expert on the power of vampire noble drow. (But my gut tells both have a lot of racial abilities that can be useful for a long time)

[gadeschaos]

Thanks a lot for the reply, it really helped ^^

There's only one thing i'm noticed i'm still not sure how to do, and that's how to use the exp table for those bonus levels.
Basically mantaining a CR 3 + 3 class levels should use the exp table for a lv 6 character right? If i decide to use the bonus level, at half level between 6 and 7 i should give him a bonus level, so he should go at the start of level 7 exp and the remainder of the party still at level 6 and half? And when the party gets to level 7 give him another level bringing him at the start of level 8 exp table? That should make him use a table one level over the party for experience...

How do you usually handle that? I was thinking it was better making him ignore exp till there's still the bonus level party ( if i decide to use them), and making him level when the other chars do, till the bonus thing ends. :smallconfused:

[Yanisa]

Well the easy to solution is to ignore bonus levels when calculating xp, they are bonus levels after all (And you shouldn't get penalized for having bonus levels by being higher levels and thus taking longer to level...).
So a CR 3 creature met 3 and half levels, thus getting that 1 Bonus Class Level, would still be a level 6th and half character on the XP chart.

[gadeschaos]

Yeah right, that's probably the better solution, and it was a pretty easy one actually, i don't know why i was complicating the thing XD

Thanks a lot for the support :D

[Talya]

Hey, all the goodies that Drow Nobles get can be acquired by a regular drow taking Drow Noble feats. This is probably a better idea for your drow, as he's going to keep up in hit dice and only be behind in feats.