Melee, Sundering, etc

[Valtu]

I've posted on here quite a bit lately, as I've been rolling up characters for either backup purposes or for future campaigns (also it's just fun :smalltongue:).

I've created 3 casters and a warlock (only 2 of the casters have been played thus far) and now I'm finally trying to branch out and go for a mundane melee fighter.

I suppose my first question is this: How useful is the ability to sunder? There's a feat called Combat Brute that allows you to sunder a weapon/shield and then make an additional attack at the same BAB. Pretty cool on paper, but I've never sundered anything, nor have I even seen anyone else in my party attempt it so far.

I know you can sunder weapons/shields, but that armor worn by a character is off-limits. Sounds pretty cool, but are there any particular mechanics or probabilities that render it less awesome than it sounds?

(For instance, with casters a spell may depend on the enemy making a save that you know they'll typically be able to make, so you don't bother taking that spell)

If the answer is that sundering is worth it, any recommendations on a good two-handed weapon (core and 3.0/3.5 supplementals only) that would be great for this?

[Azoth]

Here on the forum sundering is frowned upon heavily. While a viable tactic in combat against humanoids or any enemy the wields a weapon, it has a major downside:

Sundering. Destroys. Loot.

Thus it is viewed as a bad tactic.

[SiuiS]

Here on the forum sundering is frowned upon heavily. While a viable tactic in combat against humanoids or any enemy the wields a weapon, it has a major downside:

Sundering. Destroys. Loot.

Thus it is viewed as a bad tactic.

I'm fairly certain there are several spells which specifically either fix and restore lost enchantments, or transfer enchantments from broken items to whole ones (one of which simply siphons powers, so if you find a +2 sword, you can add it to your +1 throwing keen axe for a +3 throwing keen axe).

[Andezzar]

I'm fairly certain there are several spells which specifically either fix and restore lost enchantments, or transfer enchantments from broken items to whole ones (one of which simply siphons powers, so if you find a +2 sword, you can add it to your +1 throwing keen axe for a +3 throwing keen axe).I've never heard about that. Please provide a reference. Additionally AFAIK there are only spells that can repair damaged items, not completely broken (i.e. destroyed) magic items. By that point the magic is gone.

[Fouredged Sword]

Disarming is awesome, especially at low levels in a game that tends to put you in fights with humanoids. Nothing like taking an foe and reducing him to 1d3 non-lethal damage strikes that trigger an aoo. You win one set of rolls, and you completely shut down lots of threats. You don't destroy loot, and you can stack at least +6 to +12 onto your roll (disarming two handed weapon with improved disarm) so that if you can land the touch attack it will stick. Great for that second iterative at 6th level.

Sundering is hard at low levels. Weapons and shields have tons of hardness and more HP than the character you are attacking. It would be better to attack the person.

[Valtu]

Here on the forum sundering is frowned upon heavily. While a viable tactic in combat against humanoids or any enemy the wields a weapon, it has a major downside:

Sundering. Destroys. Loot.

Thus it is viewed as a bad tactic.

I was a bit concerned about that, actually. And by RAW there's nothing in place that says sundering could be used as a form of dismemberment, so I guess it's either weapons or nothing (although that would be pretty amazing).

Could you perhaps use it to break objects such as hinges, prison cell bars, etc?

The main reason this comes up is that I recently found out about the Combat Brute feat, which has Improved Sunder as a prerequisite. If sundering isn't really worth it, then I'd prefer not to take Improved Sunder for no reason.

Not that Combat Brute doesn't have some other nice features, but from what I've read, the spiked chain is the weapon to get for a great two-handed weapon-using Frenzied Berserker, as it has reach but can also attack adjacent squares.

Dealing piercing damage, I don't believe the spiked chain could sunder anything. Also, I'd have to take a feat to be able to use it effectively. The reach would be nice, though.

[Valtu]

Disarming is awesome, especially at low levels in a game that tends to put you in fights with humanoids. Nothing like taking an foe and reducing him to 1d3 non-lethal damage strikes that trigger an aoo. You win one set of rolls, and you completely shut down lots of threats. You don't destroy loot, and you can stack at least +6 to +12 onto your roll (disarming two handed weapon with improved disarm) so that if you can land the touch attack it will stick. Great for that second iterative at 6th level.

Sundering is hard at low levels. Weapons and shields have tons of hardness and more HP than the character you are attacking. It would be better to attack the person.

That's a good point as well. Another thing I'm definitely going to consider. I'll have to look into Improved Disarm and see if it's a prereq for any particularly interesting things. Even if not, it does sound like a pretty good tactic. I believe the enemy gets an opposed roll, so at higher levels it may be harder to achieve than sundering, but nothing is damaged that way.

If I were to disarm someone, isn't it just a move action to pick their weapon back up? Something like that? I suppose that itself provokes an AoO, though. Does succeeding on an AoO disrupt whatever action they were trying to perform? So if an enemy was trying to pick his weapon up, could I keep going "NOPE!" and smacking him?

[Fouredged Sword]

One very valid build if constrained to core is as follows

Human Fighter 3
1st level feat - Power attack
Human Feat - Spiked Chain Prof
Fighter 1 Feat - Combat Expertise
fighter 2 Feat - Improved Disarm
3rd level feat - Improved Trip

And on to more stuff as you level
Fighter 4 - Combat Reflexes

It follows the pattern of Trip / disarm / 5ft step back. Then your oponent has to choose between standing up, grabbing his weapon, or following you to attack. All of that triggers AOOs.

[Valtu]

One very valid build if constrained to core is as follows

Human Fighter 3
1st level feat - Power attack
Human Feat - Spiked Chain Prof
Fighter 1 Feat - Combat Expertise
fighter 2 Feat - Improved Disarm
3rd level feat - Improved Trip

And on to more stuff as you level
Fighter 4 - Combat Reflexes

It follows the pattern of Trip / disarm / 5ft step back. Then your oponent has to choose between standing up, grabbing his weapon, or following you to attack. All of that triggers AOOs.

Oh man, that's pretty nice! I'll definitely have to consider moving some stuff around for that potentially. I was going for more of an unthinking brute kind of character (something to contrast with my overly cautious casters lol), so the running up to people and breaking all their stuff sounded pretty fitting, but there's definitely a brutality to getting an opponent nearly helpless like that.

Can you do all of that on one turn?

[Fouredged Sword]

You make a trip attack. Improved trip makes it so that if you trip an oponent, you get an extra attack. Use the extra attack to make a disarm attempt. If that works or not, you still have a move action. Move into a nice flanking position for the rogue (the disarmed fellow can't make AOOs without a weapon)

Then, you do your damage with attacks of opportunity as he picks his weapon up off the floor and stands back up to fight you (taking two move actions, so he is left standing there for you to trip him all over again).

Now, this stops being so reliable at levels 6+ as things get bigger, and natural or magical attacks become the norm, but for a short time, in that 3-8 level zone, it works well.

[Meth In a Mine]

Here on the forum sundering is frowned upon heavily. While a viable tactic in combat against humanoids or any enemy the wields a weapon, it has a major downside:

Sundering. Destroys. Loot.

Thus it is viewed as a bad tactic.

And THAT is why I feel it would be AWESOME for PFS, since in PFS, you loot some bodies, but then the Society confiscates it and is all like "Y'all earned this, but you gotta buy it off of us anyway." Thus, I think sundering would be viable since it's not like you'd actually get to keep any of the gear you're breaking.

So... I think this would be good:
Human Fighter (Two-Handed Archetype):
L1: Power Attack
Human: Improved Sunder
Fighter: Furious Focus

Weapon: Lucerne Hammer, which allows you to have the advantages of polearms as well as sundering fun.

[Valtu]

And THAT is why I feel it would be AWESOME for PFS, since in PFS, you loot some bodies, but then the Society confiscates it and is all like "Y'all earned this, but you gotta buy it off of us anyway." Thus, I think sundering would be viable since it's not like you'd actually get to keep any of the gear you're breaking.

So... I think this would be good:
Human Fighter (Two-Handed Archetype):
L1: Power Attack
Human: Improved Sunder
Fighter: Furious Focus

Weapon: Lucerne Hammer, which allows you to have the advantages of polearms as well as sundering fun.

What is PFS? Also, I don't think I've heard of Furious Focus either.

[Chronos]

You can usually find something that wouldn't be worth much as loot but which would nonetheless be useful to sunder. A spellcaster's spell component pouch or holy symbol, for instance, is nearly worthless, but its loss will significantly constrain the caster. And plenty of enemies wield a nonmagical weapon or shield.

[Fouredged Sword]

PathFinder Society.

It isn't dnd 3.5, rather a official pathfinder league that uses a set of unified rulings and restrictions that allows one to carry a character between various DM's and games all across the US, so that one can play a game virtually anywhere. Very close to the same rules, but with some new and different stuff, and some changes to base mechanics.

It is a really neat idea, but one of the compromises they made was standardized loot. You get a set value in gold added to your character sheet per path completed. It does not matter if you sunder your way through or not, as you get the same gold ether way.

It makes for smoother, more standardized play, but it looses some of the spontaneity that can happen on a more free form table.

[Meth In a Mine]

What is PFS? Also, I don't think I've heard of Furious Focus either.
Yeah PFS is pathfinder, so thus 3.75.
Furious Focus is a feat that allows one to make one's first power attack each turn without the attack roll penalty.

[Valtu]

PathFinder Society.

It isn't dnd 3.5, rather a official pathfinder league that uses a set of unified rulings and restrictions that allows one to carry a character between various DM's and games all across the US, so that one can play a game virtually anywhere. Very close to the same rules, but with some new and different stuff, and some changes to base mechanics.

It is a really neat idea, but one of the compromises they made was standardized loot. You get a set value in gold added to your character sheet per path completed. It does not matter if you sunder your way through or not, as you get the same gold ether way.

It makes for smoother, more standardized play, but it looses some of the spontaneity that can happen on a more free form table.

Oh, ok, that's pretty cool. I'm definitely going to have to do some more research. Is it weird that I find building a good melee character more complicated than the casters I've made? :smalltongue: (Not that I've gone really heavy on optimization; I'm definitely still just getting started)

[Valtu]

Yeah PFS is pathfinder, so thus 3.75.
Furious Focus is a feat that allows one to make one's first power attack each turn without the attack roll penalty.

Oh, ok, I'm guessing that's a Pathfinder-specific feat, then. That is pretty cool. Once I qualify for Shock Trooper I can take the attack roll penalty and apply it to AC instead. Hopefully whatever I attack won't be left standing for very long afterward :P

Say I'm at a high enough level that I get 3 attacks, can I make 2 attacks, then make a trip attempt for my last one? If so, and it succeeds, do I still get an extra attack with Improved Trip, which could be used for an Improved Disarm attempt?

[Fouredged Sword]

Yes, a trip or disarm attempt may be made in place of any attack. You can even trip as an AOO (a great response to someone trying to move out of your threatened range)

When you trip, with improved trip, if you succeed, you get to make ANOTHER attack at the exact same bonus and penalties as the trip attack, but the target is now prone.

A disarm attempt can be used as this attack.

Note, you make this attack at a -5 or -10 penalty if you are using an iterative attack, but it's a touch attack, so it can deal with the penalty better than a standard attack.

[Psyren]

Sunder isn't nearly as much of a problem in Pathfinder for two reasons:

(a) A second step was added to the item destruction process - i.e. the "broken" condition. This allows you to "sunder" a weapon/armor (or other object, e.g. a staff) and reduce its effectiveness without actually destroying it. In addition, even if you accidentally deal too much damage to it, you can still choose after dealing damage whether or not you meant to actually destroy it.

(b) Mending and Make Whole can now repair magic items; the latter of the two can even restore totally destroyed ones. Thus, that enchanted greatclub you had to cleave through to keep a dangerous ogre from flattening your rogue in one blow can still be salvaged after the battle.

The larger problem with Sunder (and this applies to Disarm as well) is that a very large proportion of monsters rely on natural attacks and natural armor, neither of which can be disarmed or sundered. So focusing on this tactic is best left to humanoid-heavy campaigns.

[Valtu]

Sunder isn't nearly as much of a problem in Pathfinder for two reasons:

(a) A second step was added to the item destruction process - i.e. the "broken" condition. This allows you to "sunder" a weapon/armor (or other object, e.g. a staff) and reduce its effectiveness without actually destroying it. In addition, even if you accidentally deal too much damage to it, you can still choose after dealing damage whether or not you meant to actually destroy it.

(b) Mending and Make Whole can now repair magic items; the latter of the two can even restore totally destroyed ones. Thus, that enchanted greatclub you had to cleave through to keep a dangerous ogre from flattening your rogue in one blow can still be salvaged after the battle.

The larger problem with Sunder (and this applies to Disarm as well) is that a very large proportion of monsters rely on natural attacks and natural armor, neither of which can be disarmed or sundered. So focusing on this tactic is best left to humanoid-heavy campaigns.

Oh, ok, so there's no normal way by RAW to repair items in 3.5 (at least not in such a way that restores their enhancements). I'll have to see how our DM handles such things. Hopefully this character won't make it into our current campaign (since that would mean my existing one would be dead), but if it were to happen, I could see him allowing something like that, possibly by keeping the pieces of a weapon until some expert blacksmith/enchanter was able to make repairs for a fee.

Also, good point about the monsters. The good news is, if I go the sundering route, Improved Sunder leads into Combat Brute, which has some cool features, besides the sundering capability (attack bonus +1 for every 5ft a bull rush moved a creature and some sort of increased multiplier for STR during a Power Attack)



Note, you make this attack at a -5 or -10 penalty if you are using an iterative attack, but it's a touch attack, so it can deal with the penalty better than a standard attack.

Is that part of the regular rules, or is that just a penalty you take without having Improved Disarm? If I were to focus on that I'd definitely take it.

[Fouredged Sword]

That is just the standard penalty to secondary weapon attacks made at a lower attack bonus that the main attack IE the +1 part of +6/+1. It applies to the attack roll part of the trip or disarm attempt exactly like it would apply to a normal attack.

[Valtu]

That is just the standard penalty to secondary weapon attacks made at a lower attack bonus that the main attack IE the +1 part of +6/+1. It applies to the attack roll part of the trip or disarm attempt exactly like it would apply to a normal attack.

Oh, ok, I never thought of it as a penalty, but that makes sense.

[Valtu]

Well I had kind of a build, but then I decided to switch things up a bit. I didn't realize that Improved Trip required Combat Expertise, however, so I don't think I'll take it or Improved Disarm this time around. I love the combo of those techniques, but that is definitely more of a finesse thing than a "Hulk Smash" thing, so I'll be consistent and stick with Shock Trooper and Combat Brute for this guy.

Here's what I have so far:

Class/Lvl - Feats
Barb - 01 - Pounce, Weapon Prof. Spiked Chain, Intimidating Rage (human bonus)
Fght - 01 - Power Attack, Literacy (lol)
Fght - 02 - Cleave, Improved Bull Rush
Fght - 03 - N/A
Fght - 04 - Great Cleave
Fght - 05 - Shock Trooper
Fght - 06 - Improved Toughness
Fght - 07 - N/A
Fght - 08 - Improved Sunder, Combat Brute
Fght - 09 - N/A
Fght - 10 - ??? (Help me decide!)
FrBr - 01 - Frenzy 1/day, Diehard, Destructive Rage
FrBr - 02 - Supreme Cleave


For the missing feat at level 10 I'm thinking either Improved Overrun or Improved Critical. Double Team would be pretty neat if I knew someone else was going to take it with me, but I won't count on that for now.

Also, the way I've got it set up, I take Destructive Rage as my level 12 feat, which qualifies me for Frenzied Berserker. If that is not allowed, then I'll re-arrange that a bit, and whenever I hit level 12, I can put that undecided feat there instead.

Anyway, is this at least half-decent? Also, I've rolled up my hitpoints already, and at the last character level shown (13) I'll have 141 HP. Does that seem adequate, or lacking a build of this sort? (This is with 16 CON. Each opportunity I've opted to increase my STR so far).

[Psyren]

Again, I can't really recommend sundering as a tactic in 3.5 - even when you can get it to work regularly (i.e. you're fighting armed/armored humanoids or similar creatures), all that means is that you're very good at sundering your loot.

Having said that, if you are intent on sundering for some reason, a good tactic might be to focus on a class that won't need the items it's supposedly destroying, like a psionic character. An Ardent or Mantled Psywar is great for this, especially if you pick up the Destruction Mantle (which gets you Improved Sunder for free at 1st level, and furthermore nerfs the hardness of any objects you're hitting considerably) and lets you function well without weapons at all or with weapons you craft/call yourself.

Another option is a Binder/KotSS - Aym is fantastic for a dedicated sunderer, and Binders function quite well unarmed also. Adding VoP to either of these classes can reward you for going lootless, since you'll be smashing half of it anyway.

[Andezzar]

Unless you have some way of turning your frenzied Berserker off, he is a TPK waiting to happen.

I don't think combat brute is worth it. Better take Leap Attack. Anything that still stands after a charge is so powerful that the damage increase won't help much anyways.

You can get Improved Trip with two levels of Barbarian. On the second level you take Wolf Totem ACF (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wolfTotemClassFeatures )

[Valtu]

@Andy and Psyren:

Both good points. I'm not stuck so much on the sundering itself (though it seems like it may be occasionally useful), but I like the Advancing Blows and especially Momentum Swing aspects of Combat Brute.

Concerning the Momentum Swing part, wouldn't Pounce enable me to gain that benefit immediately? It seems like it only specifies the 1st and 2nd rounds so it doesn't imply that it's granting you any extra attacks. Since that's being taken care of by Pounce, it seems like my full attack at the end of a charge would get that bonus (hopefully!)

As for the potential TPK, that is also something I've considered. I may not really Frenzy all that much, though. I mostly want Supreme Cleave (and Diehard is nice too). I think we could probably have a party member be able to activate some sort of worn magic device (worn by me, that is) that puts me to sleep or something if I really do need to get nuts.

[Andezzar]

Concerning the Momentum Swing part, wouldn't Pounce enable me to gain that benefit immediately? It seems like it only specifies the 1st and 2nd rounds so it doesn't imply that it's granting you any extra attacks. Since that's being taken care of by Pounce, it seems like my full attack at the end of a charge would get that bonus (hopefully!)No, the Feat explicitly says that the bonus only applies in the second round. How many attacks you get in the first round (the charge) is irrelevant.


As for the potential TPK, that is also something I've considered. I may not really Frenzy all that much, though. I mostly want Supreme Cleave (and Diehard is nice too). I think we could probably have a party member be able to activate some sort of worn magic device (worn by me, that is) that puts me to sleep or something if I really do need to get nuts.That you do not want to frenzy often may not be relevant:
In addition, if she takes damage from an attack, spell, trap, or any other source, she automatically enters a frenzy at the start of her next action, as long as she still has at least one daily usage of the ability left. To avoid entering a frenzy in response to a provoking effect, the character must make a successful Will save (DC 10 + points of damage taken since her last action) at the start of her next turn.
I'm not aware of any such off switch item. It most likely must be a custom item and as such it is in the purview of the DM, whether such an item exists at all, how well it works and what it will cost.

[Psyren]

The switch off Frenzy item is the Bag of Marbles from AEG :smalltongue:

[Fouredged Sword]

Or the spell calm emotions.

[Andezzar]

The switch off Frenzy item is the Bag of Marbles from AEG :smalltongue:That frenzied Berserkers cannot use balance is harsh.

[Valtu]

Ah, I had not read that much into the Frenzy ability. I also don't think an item exists for the purpose of ending a frenzy, but I don't see why a spell-trigger item couldn't be made to cast some sort of immobilizing effect on me, perhaps by a character using a command word. It'd be nice if it could be an immediate action.

Either way, if I just dip long enough to get Supreme Cleave I only get one frenzy per day anyway.

That's too bad about the Combat Brute thing, but hey, that's potentially 2 feats free for Combat Expertise and Improved Trip! Or leap attack like you were saying.

[Fouredged Sword]

Yeah, you are going to want to burn that frenzy at the start of each day, and not look back. Just have someone cast calm emotions on you and choose to fail the save every morning. Buy them a pearl of power to cover the spell slot.

[Valtu]

Yeah, you are going to want to burn that frenzy at the start of each day, and not look back. Just have someone cast calm emotions on you and choose to fail the save every morning. Buy them a pearl of power to cover the spell slot.

Oh, good idea! For this sort of build, (I suppose this guy might qualify as a tank?) what sort of HP is typical by that level? With Improved Toughness by level 13 I've got him at 141 HP.

That's with 16 CON the entire time. Is that decent by then? All my other characters have had pretty minuscule HP by comparison so I have no idea how to gauge that :smalltongue:

[Fouredged Sword]

Well, get a +con item. You need to be able to eat at least 3 full round attacks worth of HP each encounter, healing to full between encounter.

A miss chance will really help. Get smoking armor spikes. It will provide a nice miss chance that will really help out your survival.

[Andezzar]

Yeah, you are going to want to burn that frenzy at the start of each day, and not look back. Just have someone cast calm emotions on you and choose to fail the save every morning. Buy them a pearl of power to cover the spell slot.One Nitpick. the pearl of power does not giver the caster an additional spell slot but allows him to regain a spell as if it hadn't been cast. So the spellcaster only gets another casting of calm emotions. The spellcaster might not go for it.

[Fouredged Sword]

Then just drop some marbles and wait it out. So long as nobody walks within reach, you are fine as you can't move.

[Valtu]

Well, I read about Supreme Cleave and now I'm thinking I may have gotten excited before I realized its limitations :smallredface:

Only one 5-foot step the entire round, so if you have a small group you can Great Cleave to death, then another group just barely out of reach, then it's awesome. Otherwise it seems like it's less insane than it first sounds.

The added STR bonus during a frenzy is pretty cool, but the frenzy ability itself is really really dangerous to the party. It's starting to seem less worth it than I thought. I was also initially going off of what someone in our group said about Supreme Cleave before (I need to stop doing that, as that has made other feats and abilities sound a LOT better than they are on a few occasions).

Urgh, inner-conflict!

[Meth In a Mine]

Well, I read about Supreme Cleave and now I'm thinking I may have gotten excited before I realized its limitations :smallredface:

Only one 5-foot step the entire round, so if you have a small group you can Great Cleave to death, then another group just barely out of reach, then it's awesome. Otherwise it seems like it's less insane than it first sounds.

The added STR bonus during a frenzy is pretty cool, but the frenzy ability itself is really really dangerous to the party. It's starting to seem less worth it than I thought. I was also initially going off of what someone in our group said about Supreme Cleave before (I need to stop doing that, as that has made other feats and abilities sound a LOT better than they are on a few occasions).
Urgh, inner-conflict!
I will note that unless it got FAQ'd, the Knight Protector has an ability of the same name and does the same thing, except RAW says it lacks the once-per-round limitation, since unlike the Frenzied Berserker ability, the KP ability does not specifically state it's once per round. Combine that with Pathfinder's version of great cleave (which is a prereq for both the 'Zerker and KP) and you get something very nasty. UNLESS I'm missing something.