Question about the Witch and Extra Hex

[TheLastSane1]

Ok so I was reading somewhere on the web and saw someone suggest that a Witch at level 1 could get the extra hex feat and get any hex on the hex list, regardless of type. Because it reads as long as you meet the prerequisites for it. Except most Hexes have none.

Is that a really true? I am curious because this seriously makes Witches powerful.

[Yorrin]

The prerequisite in question is class level, as per the description of Major and Grand hexes in the class description. So sadly no, this isn't a route to fast power in that fashion.

[TheLastSane1]

You mean where it says Starting at Level 10. Well thats for that category of hexes, not the hex itself. I am just curious because I wanted to know if this was a glaring oversight.

[Yanisa]

You mean where it says Starting at Level 10. Well thats for that category of hexes, not the hex itself. I am just curious because I wanted to know if this was a glaring oversight.

It's the other way around... The Extra Hex Feat doesn't allow for Major Hexes or Grand Hexes at all! But your class abilities do allow to take a Major or Grand Hex instead of a regular Hex.

[TheLastSane1]

Benefit: You gain one additional hex. You must meet all of the prerequisites for this hex.

It does not say which type of Hex and considering they are all considered Hexes. Though I kinda agree the lvl thing is a restriction.

[Yorrin]

considering they are all considered Hexes

Thats the problem right there. They aren't all considered Hexes. A Major Hex is not a Hex. It's a list of things you can take in place of a Hex when you're Witch level is 10 or more. It's right there in the description of Major Hex.

[TheLastSane1]

Ok so the Witch only gets 1 major Hex and 1 Grand Hex?

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch

Notice it does not continue to say Major Hex after they gain the ability to gain them. Since it says only Hex then you have to mean it only gets basic hexes.

[Yorrin]

Incorrect. Major Hex and Grand Hex are class features that allow you to pick from a different list when you get a Hex. Hex, as per both the text and the table, is gained every even level in the class. The feat Extra Hex is another way a Hex is obtained.

[TheLastSane1]

Thats the problem right there. They aren't all considered Hexes. A Major Hex is not a Hex. It's a list of things you can take in place of a Hex when you're Witch level is 10 or more. It's right there in the description of Major Hex.

You just said they are not all considered hexes. The tale only says you gain a hex. If they are not considered hexes then you only gain a major and grand hex when the table lists them separately. So they must all be considered hexes.

[Yorrin]

You just said they are not all considered hexes. The tale only says you gain a hex. If they are not considered hexes then you only gain a major and grand hex when the table lists them separately. So they must all be considered hexes.

You NEVER "gain" a Major Hex (or Grand Hex, for that matter). Major Hex is a class feature that adds new options to your list of available hexes to choose from.

It's like if a Sorcerer got a class feature at level 10 that told him that Cleric Spells were now on his class list. He could then pick them whenever he got to pick new Spells Known, even though that class feature only showed up at level 10.

[TheLastSane1]

That was exactly my point.
They are all considered Hexes by the definition and the table. Major Hex just shows when you gain access to a new table of those hexes as you can still pick hexes from the previous common hex list.

I agree that Extra Hex would only grant you a Major Hex list Hex at or after level 10 as that is a Prereq.

[Yorrin]

That was exactly my point.
They are all considered Hexes by the definition and the table. Major Hex just shows when you gain access to a new table of those hexes as you can still pick hexes from the previous common hex list.

I agree that Extra Hex would only grant you a Major Hex list Hex at or after level 10 as that is a Prereq.

Then I think we're on the same page.

What I thought you were trying to do was dip Witch 1 with Extra Hex to get a Grand Hex from the feat. But I think we're clear that that doesn't work. Cool.

[TheLastSane1]

Indeed I saw that argument and wanted to be sure I was right in thinking that was BS as it would make a Witch far to powerful far too early.

[Yanisa]

Well officially even then the Feat Extra Hex cannot grand a Major (or Grand) Hex when you take it at level 11, 13 or any uneven level...

The ability states:


Major Hex

Starting at 10th level, and every two levels thereafter a witch can choose one of the following major hexes whenever she could select a new hex.


So yeah, the witch cannot take Major Hexes at uneven levels. Because its 10 and every two levels thereafter. Meaning even levels.

I do think most sane people ignore that point. :smalltongue:

[Barstro]

So yeah, the witch cannot take Major Hexes at uneven levels. Because its 10 and every two levels thereafter. Meaning even levels.

That is some fantastic rules lawyering. Opposing counsel will point out that the word "Starting" shows that it is an ongoing effect and "and every two levels thereafter" is unnecessary dicta.

I think the language used was a poor attempt to explain that Level 10 did not grant both a "lesser" Hex and also a Major Hex.

[Yanisa]

That is some fantastic rules lawyering. Opposing counsel will point out that the word "Starting" shows that it is an ongoing effect and "and every two levels thereafter" is unnecessary dicta.

I think the language used was a poor attempt to explain that Level 10 did not grant both a "lesser" Hex and also a Major Hex.

And to think my player call me loose with the rules.

Besides the whole phrase "starting at" seemed to used for all types of abilities, from permanent abilities (Like Druid's Undergrowth) to increasing abilities (Fight's Bravery) and all to way to feat like abilities (Rogue Talents). There is no clear usage for the phrasing in any meaningful way.

Also if they wanted to clarify you only get one hex, wouldn't the whole "and every two levels thereafter" confuse that point... It is like you are getting something every 2 levels, or you are increasing in power, but you ain't... The more I think about it the more I realized how poorly written such a simple ability is. Thanks to one line!

I really should stop thinking about it. :smalltongue:

[Barstro]

Also if they wanted to clarify you only get one hex, wouldn't the whole "and every two levels thereafter" confuse that point...

Well, it's the Witch progression chart that shows;
Level----------SPECIAL
10th--------Hex, major hex.
---
12th--------------Hex.

Why read lines and descriptions when there's a confusing chart?

Boy, the more I look into it, the more I like your logic. But I'm playing a Witch, so I'm going to ignore it.:smalltongue:

[Yanisa]

Well, it's the Witch progression chart that shows;
Level----------SPECIAL
10th--------Hex, major hex.
---
12th--------------Hex.

Why read lines and descriptions when there's a confusing chart?

Boy, the more I look into it, the more I like your logic. But I'm playing a Witch, so I'm going to ignore it.:smalltongue:

Yeah, charts for the win, clearly you get a hex and a major hex. To be fair it is barely clear from the Major Hex ability that it replaces the normal Hex gained. :smalltongue:

I now also wonder how the author would feel if he knew we nitpicked every single sentence to death. But enough about me being nitpicky, it s weird and I am way too over-thinking this.

As a side note: I once played a witch, Hex focused to the max, and I rarely used a spell (except a whole list of buffs), and I still ended up as one of the most powerful party members.
Also I am planning another witch (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch/archetypes/paizo---witch-archetypes/white-haired-witch)at the moment... But my party seems now think witches are horribly overpowered classes. :smallfrown:

Witches are fun, perhaps a bit odd(ly written)... but fun...

[grarrrg]

Well officially even then the Feat Extra Hex cannot grand a Major (or Grand) Hex when you take it at level 11, 13 or any uneven level...

The ability states:

Starting at 10th level, and every two levels thereafter a witch can choose one of the following major hexes whenever she could select a new hex.
So yeah, the witch cannot take Major Hexes at uneven levels. Because its 10 and every two levels thereafter. Meaning even levels.

Easily solved! Dip another class for 1 level.
TA-DA! Now Hexes fall on odd/feat levels!

Ha-ha, I loopholed your rules lawyering!:smalltongue::smallbiggrin: