3.5: lacking inspiration: ECL 3-4 'ranged' build? (EDIT: build finished)

[Harlot]

Hi

I'd greatly appreciate if any of you could spare a few minutes to help me out, as I am frankly out of ideas:
For this upcoming campaign we're supposedly building ECL 3-4-ish characters.

For the last years we've had characters level 6-7 and upwards so the opportunities at this level are underwhelming and a bit offputting.

The group has four players, one is going Troll (yup!) the second some sort of caster and the third; I have no idea.

As the tank and the caster are more than covered, and I've been roguish with my last two characters, I think I'd like a ranged character now, but not necessarily a ranger, maybe a fighter specialising in ranged weapons, or som variation of swordsage. Or something I don't know yet.

I've looked into ranger, but the magic doesn't happen 'till level four, it's not that fantastic and I am not impressed by the class features such as wild empathy, track etc. Favored enemy doesn't make sense with the current DM - he chooses monsters randomly - you may meet any creature anywhere.

I thought about a fighter build with just ranged feats, but it lacks a bit of oomph. (I like that it has LOTS of feats though.)

I like swordsage, but don't see an obviously ranged build/school. Am I missing something?

I've rolled 76 base points, there's free min/max. - no cap.
I have 22 K (not a cp more) for items.

ALL books, races, classes, feats and items may be used.
I'd prefer to be somewhat humanoid and I am really not good at being evil.

I have never been so undecided and morose about a build before. I love building characters. I just can't see the possiblities here. I'd appreciate any help at all.

I am not writing this to make you give me a pre-build character on a platter because I am to lazy to build it. I am just thoroughly uninspired.

Thanx
/Harlot

[Piggy Knowles]

My suggestion would be a Totemist (three ranged spine attacks at level three as a standard action via Manticore Belt is pretty nice), or some sort of poison archer, with Hidden Talent (psionic minor creation) and Master of Poisons to fire poisoned arrows. Factotum is my favorite class for the latter, but even something like a ranger 2/fighter 2 would be fine.

[Eldariel]

Well. I'd say go Warblade Archer but! If you only have written schools, that won't kick off for a while. So wait a bit on the Warblade-part. Start:

Ranger 2/Fighter 1/Barbarian 1. Ranger gets you Rapid Shot (you don't have to take PBS and Precise Shot unless you feel like it), Fighter either gives you Targeteer Fighter for Arrow Storm (-5 to hit, +2 attacks, in Dragon Magazine #310) or Hit'n'Run Fighter (Dex as effectively Sneak Attack damage and +2 Initiative, in Drow of the Underdark) and Barbarian (taking Whirling Frenzy and Pounce if you want melee or Fast Movement if you don't).

Then, if you ever get level 5 start taking Warblade, pick elusive, utility and defensive maneuvers to do stuff while shooting and eventually Dancing Mongoose/Raging Mongoose from Tiger Claw and finally Time Stands Still from Diamond Mind for offense higher up.

[Doc_Maynot]

If you want to use fighter, try looking up the Targetteer Fighter from Dragon Magazine #310, it grants some interesting options.

[Zaq]

My suggestion would be a Totemist (three ranged spine attacks at level three as a standard action via Manticore Belt is pretty nice), or some sort of poison archer, with Hidden Talent (psionic minor creation) and Master of Poisons to fire poisoned arrows. Factotum is my favorite class for the latter, but even something like a ranger 2/fighter 2 would be fine.

I was thinking Totemist as well. Manticore Belt is a one-trick pony, but honestly, damn near any ranged build is a one-trick pony.

Scouts are fun. Swift Hunter doesn't really work or matter for a few levels, so if you're planning on ONLY playing at lowish levels, you might just go straight-class Scout. One shot per round, but at low levels, that's not really unusual or problematic.

If you want to go another route, what about a more magical kind of fellow? Warlock is the obvious choice, but if you go into it expecting to play a fancy archer instead of a wielder of Phenomenal Cosmic Powah, Warmage is also surprisingly decent at being The Ranged Guy. (Sure, it's weaker than a Sorcerer if you play it as a caster, but don't think of it as a caster, you know?)

[Bloodgruve]

You could do Scout with a Cleric dip for Travel Devotion. You get your 10' movement as a swift action and still get a full attack with Skirmish.

Also look at a scouting Warlock. Need Able Learner or Human Paragon for spot ranks. Takes a bit to work but it could be fun.

Factotum is a very fun skill monkey class to play. Iaijutsu Focus is an option but I would dip a sneak attack class and throw on Craven for damage output instead with ranged attacks. IF can consume your build resources if you're not careful ;) 3x Font of Inspiration, no more no less...

f templates are open check out Dark Creature from ToM for any sneaky character (works great on whisper gnome IF factotums).

Whip Bard! Dagger Whips from Arms and Equip 3.0 do lethal damage. Dual wield these with Knowledge Devotion and Inspire Courage. Very fun, no attacks of opportunity though.

GL
Blood~

[Piggy Knowles]

I was thinking Totemist as well. Manticore Belt is a one-trick pony, but honestly, damn near any ranged build is a one-trick pony.

True, but at least a Totemist has other melds to fall back on, and can decide to shape something else if desired. Manticore Belt also is a nice way to boost Spot checks, so you can have fun that way, too.

[Harlot]

So. much. inspiration! Opportunites galore! I am now confused and undecided on a whole other level.

I realise that totemist is rather cool - I've seen it mentioned in amny threads before this one! - but I don't know anything about the whole incarnum system, so it'd take quite a lot of work - too much work for me at this present time, frankly.

I will look into warlock, and scout/targetteer and factotum and the Ranger 2/Fighter 1/Barbarian 1 to-be-warblade combo.

Already am.
I am kind of keen on the factotum, actually, and sort of wondered if there's a way to combine the scout hit'n'run tactics with the Iajutsu Focus factotum. Does that even make sense?

Also: Scouting warlock? You mean multiclass?

Anyway, I am very much inspired: I've never played ANYof the suggested classes before, so thats a thrill, and I am looking forward to building yet again :-)

[Eldonauran]

Hmm...

How about an Azurin Fighter 2 / Psychic Warriror 2? Feats galore. After that, why don't you pick up 2 levels of totemist so you get access to those nifty soulmelds and boost your essentia further. Don't forget to pick up the Bonus Essentia feat at level 6!

If you take Shape Soulmeld (Sighting Gloves), you get a +1 insight bonus to ranged weapon damage, +1 for each invested essentia.
If you take Azure Talent, you can get bonus PP for your Psychic Warrior for essentia invested, and a bonus +1 essentia to your pool.
If your alignment is Chaotic and you pick up the Incarnate Avatar soulmeld, you can get +1 insight to hit with ranged attacks (and/or a +1 AC if also good, or +2 insight to melee damage if also evil) for each essentia invested.


Level 1: Fighter 1
Azurin Bonus Feat:
Level One Feat:
Bonus Fighter Feat:

Level 2: Pychic Warrior 1
Bonus Fighter/Psionic Feat:

Level 3: Fighter 2
Level Three Feat:
Bonus Fighter Feat:

Level 4: Pyschic Warrior 2
Bonus Fighter/Psionic Feat:

You might be able to get some mileage out of Psycarnum Infusion feat (expend psionic focus to max out a meld/feat/ability with essentia for the round). Azure Talent can give temp PP in a round if your DM is amicable to the ruling, when combined with the feat. Psionic Meditation (regain focus as move action) is useful too.

[Bloodgruve]

...
I am kind of keen on the factotum, actually, and sort of wondered if there's a way to combine the scout hit'n'run tactics with the Iajutsu Focus factotum. Does that even make sense?

Also: Scouting warlock? You mean multiclass?
...


Iaijutsu Focus is fun but it takes a lot to pull off consistently. Whisper Gnome with Gnomish Quickrazors for the 'draw' factor and then you need them Flat Footed. A number of ways to to this. Hide chck, in combat this is at -20 and you need concealment or Hide in Plain Sight which can be tricky (Dark Creature template from ToM helps). Force a balance check against an opponent with less then 5 ranks in Balance, Grease or marbles on the ground. A few Maneuvers from Tome of Battle. Act first in initiative. etc.. Take some Swordsage for movement maneuvers. Again, I'd suggest going a different route for damage, IF is a lot of book keeping and its not really as fun at the table as you think it would be. IMHO. Great class, taxing build.

For a Warlock scout, no multiclassing necessarily, just taking some good options. Spot isn't a class skill so Human Paragon works well. Able Learner feat is good here too which also gets you into Chameleon PRC. Invocations like All-Seeing Eyes, See the Unseen, Crawling Eye, Spider Shape, Fell Flight, Walk Unseen, etc.. can make for a very effective scout. All this without diminishing your combat abilities. Just an interesting twist on a class, not really built for it but can be quite effective if you can get Spot as a class skill.

GL
Blood~

[Piggy Knowles]

Here's a quick build stub for an ECL 4 factotum archer that focuses on poisons.

FACTOTUM POISON ARCHER:
Human or Strongheart Halfling, Factotum 3/Cloistered Cleric 1
DOMAINS: Artifice, Craft, Knowledge (traded for Knowledge Devotion)

1. Factotum1- Point Blank Shot, Hidden Talent (Psionic Minor Creation)
2. Factotum2-
3. Factotum3- Rapid Shot
4. Cloistered Cleric1- Knowledge Devotion, Skill Focus (craft (poisonmaking))

With a 14 Int and masterwork tools, your craft (poisonmaking) is 1d20+21. That means that even on a natural 1, you can use Psionic Minor Creation to make natural poisons like spotted toadstool venom (DC 16, 1d6 strength and con damage), and an 85% chance to make terinav root, the dragon-killer (DC 20, 1d6/2d6 dex). Use arcane dilettante for Magecraft, and you'll have a decent chance of successfully making black lotus extract, with its whopping 3d6 con damage - that'll take out just about anything!

You only risk poisoning yourself when applying the poison to your arrows, so each morning, use PMC to make a batch of poisons, guzzle some antitoxin and apply it to all your arrows. If you poison yourself, antitoxin and cunning insight should save you (although a wand of Lesser Restoration wouldn't go amiss, just in case).

With Knowledge Devotion and decent Dex, you'll be firing off two poisoned arrows a round, each with DCs well above what most enemies can reliably make...

Beyond there, just stick with factotum and you'll be alright.

[Eldonauran]

Hmm, poison build? Just be wary of those ECL 3 clerics, and the like, that can cast delay poison and ruin all your fun tricks.

[lunar2]

maybe warlock 2/bard 1/scout 1? if you aren't planning on leveling, then this build can get your eldritch blast up to 4d6 damage.

warlock 2 gets you the base 1d6. scout 1 gets you +1d6 when you move at least 10 feet. bard 1 with the dragonfire inspiration feat gets you +1d6 fire damage, or +2d6 if you use a badge of valor (mic) when you inspire courage. it also adds that +2d6 to all your allies' damage, too, so you're buffing the party while being the archer. 4d6 a round, every round, is fairly respectable. also, bardic music prevents you from casting spells, but warlock invocations are SLAs, not spells, so you can use them normally. i'd suggest eldritch spear, to get that massive range.

at level 5, your 3rd level of warlock grants another 1d6 damage.

your feats are

1. practiced spellcaster (warlock)

human. point blank shot

3. dragon fire inspiration

if you make it to 6, empower SLA. this will increase your eldritch blast damage by 50% 3/day. this is why you need practiced spellcaster for warlock, though, because the prereq of empower SLA is a caster level of 6.

[Nihilarian]

Psionics tend to make pretty good archers. The soulbow is unfortunately slightly too high a level, but a Psychic Warrior could be good.

Half-Giant Ranger 2/(Ardent 1 or Psychic Warrior 1) with Zen Archer and Practiced Manifester, would make attack rolls using Wisdom, deal 2d6+str damage per attack and have access to powers. Since you're a Zen Archer there's no downside to using Expansion, at which point you'll make 2 attacks that deal 3d6 each, plus strength (you'll have to buy a bow you can wield while under the effects of expansion).

If you go this route you should definitely check out the Mind's Eye articles (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a). Expanded Classes in particular.

[Irk]

With a 14 Int and masterwork tools, your craft (poisonmaking) is 1d20+21.
Is this using Wieldskill?

[Piggy Knowles]

No, but that's an easy additional +5, although it doesn't stack with Magecraft. The breakdown is +2 Int, +7 ranks, +3 skill focus, +4 artifice, +3 cunning knowledge, +2 masterwork artisan's tools.

[Harlot]

Again, thanks for the help, and clarifications.

As with the incarnum, I've never used psionics. We do have the book, and I've sort of looked through it, but on this short notice, as with the Incarnum, I'll pass on that (I am aware that it is awesome because people post it constantly!)

As for the whisper gnome/quickrazor/iajutsu/swordsage/rogue combo, my current character (in my other game) is all that at level 13 already, so I've got that covered, I was just wondering if Iajutsu and ranged could be combined in some smart way I hadn't figured out myself, it doesn't seem like it.
(btw. used Cosmopolitan to get Ia jutsu fokus for the gnome swordsage, but don't know if that is in fact possible by RAW?)

You make the warlock combos sound really nice, and also I like the factotum builds, so still trying to figure out what to do.
But these options/possiblities/combos are a lot more fun to shuffle around than where I started out, so thank you.

I do think we'll level up, but I have NO idea how fast, as this DM hands out XP randomly/for roleplay.

Thanks
/Harlot

[Piggy Knowles]

Another option: cloistered cleric of winter.

Elf, cloistered cleric 4
DOMAINS: Winter, Elf, Knowledge (traded for Knowledge Devotion)
1. Cloistered cleric1- Point Blank ShotB, Knowledge DevotionB, Precise Shot
2. Cloistered cleric2-
3. Cloistered cleric3- Rapid Shot
4. Cloistered cleric4-

Only +2 BAB, but with Rapid Shot and Knowledge Devotion that's not too big of an issue. More importantly, you'll want to always keep the following spells up:

Obscuring Snow
Snowsight

Both spells are from Frostburn. Obscuring Snow creates a 30' radius cloud of blinding snow that follows you around for four hours per casting. Anything more than 5' away in the cloud can't be seen at all, and anything within 5' still has concealment (20% miss chance). However, the Snowsight spell (which also lasts 1 hour/level) lets you see through the snow as normal.

So, cast Obscuring Snow, and cast Snowsight on yourself and all your allies. You'll all get to walk around all day in a personal blinding snowstorm that almost no one can see through, but you will all be able to see through it fine. From the midst of that snowstorm, you can rain pointy death from your arrows.

[Harlot]

You'll all get to walk around all day in a personal blinding snowstorm that almost no one can see through, but you will all be able to see through it fine. From the midst of that snowstorm, you can rain pointy death from your arrows.

THIS! OMG this is hilarious!

[Bloodgruve]

I was just wondering if Iajutsu and ranged could be combined in some smart way I hadn't figured out myself, it doesn't seem like it.
(btw. used Cosmopolitan to get Ia jutsu fokus for the gnome swordsage, but don't know if that is in fact possible by RAW?)

You make the warlock combos sound really nice, and also I like the factotum builds, so still trying to figure out what to do.



The Cosmopolitan you're using is a 3.0 version. It looks to be replaced by a 3.5 version in the Players Guide which would, by RAW, make it not work. As a DM I would accept Cosmopolitan 3.0 and 3.5 both as it looks like they are intended to do different things IMHO.


Blood~

[Harlot]

@Bloodgruve: Thanks for the feedback on Cosmopolitan - found the Faerun version, and yeah, thats not the same feat at all. Good to know! Thanx!

@all: A scout warlock is in the making, I am happy and inspired. Thank you!!

[Bakkan]

If you want to go the neaky route, you can pick up the feat Blend into Shadow from Drow of the Underdark. This lets you expend a use of your darkness spell-like ability as as swift action to hide regardless of your concealment or whether you're being observed as long as you're within 10 feet of some sort of magical darkness. My recommendation is to pick up the darkness and devil's sight invocations and keep an object on your person constantly emitting shadowy illumination that you can see through. A rough build follows:

Warlock 2/Rogue 1/Scout 1
Feats: Blend Into Darkness, Craven

Start every round hidden.
Option 1: Move at least 10 feet; fire an eldritch blast at an enemy: you'll be targeting his touch AC, he won't be allowed his Dex bonus, and you'll get a +2 on the attack since you are treated as invisible if you've successfully hidden; when you hit, deal 3d6+4 untyped damage; as a swift action, hide again.
Option 2: Fire an eldtrich blast, deal 2d6+4 damage, use a swift action to hide, move silently up to half your speed so your enemies don't know where you are.

There's a lot you can do to improve this as well. A Whisper Gnome is likely the optimal choice of race, and if you have extra feats, Shape Soulmeld (Kruthik Claws) can get your Hide and Move Silently checks stupidly high.

[Bloodgruve]

I'm running one now. This is what I'm doing if it helps. If your DM allows 3.0 Cosmopolitan thats awesome.



Warlock 3/Cleric 1/Warlock 9/Hellfire Warlock 3/Warlock 4

1- Improved Initiative, Improved Toughness, Cosmopolitan (Spot), Cosmopolitan (Listen), 2x Flaws
3- Eldritch Claws
4- Travel Devotion, Extra Turning (From Cleric dip with Undeath domain)
6- Improved Natural Attack
9- Extra Invocation
12- Soulmeld-Strongheart Vest
15- Infernal Adept
18- Extra Invocation

Invocations
1 - Spider Walk (Switched to Eldritch Glaive at lvl7)
2 - All Seeing Eyes
5 - Baleful Utterance
7 - Fell Flight
9 - Walk Unseen, See the Unseen
11- Crawling Eye
12- Flee the Scene
14- Hellrime Blast
etc..

Skill for Hellfire prerequisites, UMD, Spot and Listen.

My DM is new'er so I'm gonna hold off on Hellfire Warlock till later levels. This is not the most optimized build but it should be good at scouting and melee. If Cosmopolitan doesn't work I'd go Human Paragon for Spot instead of Cleric. Travel Devotion + turning is a poor mans Pounce. Fell Flight, Walk Unseen and See the Unseen may move around some.

Another option would be to drop Hellfire Warlock and dip Mindbender for Mindsight feat as its probably one of the best scouting tools available.

I started building a pure damage based Clawlock but I'm refocusing because it sounds fun.

Share your build once you figure it out ;)

Blood~

[Harlot]

@Bloodgruve: I really like your warlock build! I did look at Hellfire, which is VERY nice, but as I don't know how far this game will take me, levelwise, I gave up on that - and on warlock. Dreams are all I have. And on that note:

I eventually just ended up making a straight-up scout.
The reason I did this - and didn't go warlock, although I really, really, really like the warlock - is this:

My DM - that allowed my friend to be an f'ing Troll through homebrew modifications - has allowed me too to be a sort of watered down homebrew version of a monster - a Centaur.

I.e. insane bonii to dex, con, str. = bonus to all sorts of damage.
Actually the base stats are:

Strength: 14/+8 = 22 (+6)
Dexterity: 16/+4/+2 (gloves of dex.) = 22(+6)
Constitution: 16/+4 = 18 (+5)
Intelligence: 12/-2 = 10
Wisdom: 8/+2 = 10
Charisma: 10

Because there's no Racial Hit Dice and no Racial Skills or Feats in this homebrew centaur, LA is set to +1.

As the Race is large, these stats give me a damage output like this at character level 3/ECL 4:

Melee:
+1 greatsword, large: 2650 gp incl. least crystal of return (draw weapon as a free action)
Attack: (BAB 2 + str. 6 + size -1+ 1(sword)) = d20+8
Damage: 3d6 (large) + 6 (str.) + 1d6 v. skirmish attacks

Ranged:
Large composite longbow +1, str. bonus 6, darkwood: 3030 GP
(I like darkwood. Don't ask.)
Attack: (BAB 2 + dex 6 +size -1 + 1 bow) d20+8
Damage: 2d6 (large) + str. bonus 6 + (1d6 skirmish within 30 feet)

I tried building the warlock around this centaur template - with the free min/max and all, I'd easily up the cha (+magicblooded, middle aged) but found it hard to enhance Eldrich Blast in a way that compares to the damage output from the Centaur skirmish combo.

I haven't multiclassed for travel devotion or pounce synergies to go with skirmish. I would have, I'm sure, if I had more levels starting out, but this build is all about the here and now. The plan is to use anklets of translocation, and hopefully other similar magic items whenever I get my hands on some GP.

On modifications: I consider dipping into fighter (starting out fighter) to qualify for the 'hit and run tactics' ACF from DotU. That really would be very nice to have. Also I've blown a feat getting martial weapon proficiency (for damage!), and that kindda sucks.

Again, thanks for helping me out. This build is not the best build ever, but it's fun. I like that it has a ranger feel without being one. I like that it's simple, it'll fit the campaign (I think) and the DM (I'm sure!).

I am in a much better place today, than when I started this thread, and I am very grateful for all of your help and inspiration.

Thanks
/Harlot

[Bloodgruve]

... If you're a centaur I think there are some crazy mounted charger build you can do. Something about stacking leap attack and spirited charge..

Triple Power Attack damage with Leap attack then stack another 3x modifier for the full attack with a lance or something like that.

Blood

[Irk]

No, but that's an easy additional +5, although it doesn't stack with Magecraft. The breakdown is +2 Int, +7 ranks, +3 skill focus, +4 artifice, +3 cunning knowledge, +2 masterwork artisan's tools.
Wieldskill is actually +10, so that's bump it up to +29 (substitute tool for the spell bonus). I did not even remember to include cunning knowledge, I should have remembered.

[Piggy Knowles]

Wieldskill is actually +10, so that's bump it up to +29 (substitute tool for the spell bonus). I did not even remember to include cunning knowledge, I should have remembered.

It was updated in Player's Guide to Faerun. It's +5 now.