Why do evil people exist in D&D?

[Eaglejarl]

In the D&D world it is well known that the afterlife exists, and what actions will get you the good afterlife and what will get you the bad afterlife. Also, magic exists that will change a person's alignment.

Given these facts...why are there non-insane evil people around? If a person is naturally Lawful Evil (or whatever) but is intelligent and rational, why would she not say "Hm. If I act the way I want to act, then when I die I will go to Tartarus [or wherever] and burn in firey writhing mangling ripping tearing oh-god-it's-awful agony for all of eternity. Or, I could spend 4k gp on a Helm of Opposite Alignment and go to Elysium [or wherever]."

[Nettlekid]

The afterlives are designed to be paradise based on your mentality. An evil person in our world would still probably be Neutral by the D&D standard, leaning toward Evil. But D&D assumes the mindset of the character is like, breathing the ethos and morality (in much the same way D&D over-9000s everything.) For a Lawful Evil character, who's all about twisting rules and getting to the top of the pile, Baator is a paradise where, if the person is as ruthless as they believe themselves to be, they can rule in Hell rather than serve in Heaven. Devils who ALWAYS obey their word? That can be played. Of course, they'll be facing stiff competition, but such is their world. A Chaotic Evil character who believes in might makes right and revels in mindless destruction would love the Abyss. "You wanna hurt me? You wanna rip my skin off? COME AT ME! COME AT ME! I'LL COME AT YOU TOO! ALL OF YOU!" kind of thing.

Imagine Heaven in D&D as well. It would be kind of...stifling, for a Neutral person. Even Celestia or the Beastlands would be too much of a good thing. Unless you lived and breathed purity and righteousness, or valor and justice, you probably wouldn't love it.

[Honest Tiefling]

I always thought it was a tad silly of evil gods/beings not to try to turn around their recruitment with better PR for the afterlife, personally.

[Invader]

The easy answer is its human nature. If the modern world knew for certain there was an afterlife I honestly don't think that much would change.

[OldTrees1]

Most people do not have ranks in knowledge (the planes) or knowledge (religion). Some people do not trust when a biased priest casts a spell and then accuses them of being evil.

[Eaglejarl]

The afterlives are designed to be paradise based on your mentality.

Huh. That actually makes a lot of sense, thank you. Is there RAW about how you arrive in the various planes? Do you show up as yourself, or some other plane-appropriate form, do you have your gear, etc?

[MonochromeTiger]

The easy answer is its human nature. If the modern world knew for certain there was an afterlife I honestly don't think that much would change.

of course it wouldn't, being evil is far too fun.

[Gavinfoxx]

Here is the action that will give you a good afterlife:

Be seen as useful and competent and achieving your patron god's goals, who will then reward you in his private afterlife if he likes you.


Even if that afterlife is technically in Hell. In other words, ALL gods reward their best followers when they die...

[Azoth]

Could always go with the more philosophical, "Without evil, how would you know what good is?"

Aside that whole derailing thought, remember that devils and demons exist to corrupt mortal being on the material plane to further their armies in the Blood War and their war on good. Offering rewards in the present for payment at a later time. It is easy to take a good man and corrupt him with a seemingly innocent act. All you need do is keep certain details from him.

Offer a man $100 to walk away from his post for a minute. Odds are he will take the money. You kill someone because he wasn't there. He just fascilitated murder through greed/negligence.

Simple as that. He is now evil for having literally done nothing wrong.

[Khatoblepas]

Because that's not how the evil afterlife works. The "burn in agony forever" angle has been placed upon the evil afterlife from *cough* other sources, but in actuality, the lower planes are actually a source of power for a lot of evil people:


The petitioners (souls of the dead who have been sent to the layer for the afterlife) of the Abyss are called manes, and they are the lowest caste of the Tanar'ri. They have pale white skin, sharp teeth and claws, and maggots are reported to crawl through their flesh. Manes that survive for many years may be promoted to greater forms of demon. Extremely clever, lucky ones that survive for millennia may even eventually become Demon Lords. The Demon Lord Orcus is one such demon lord who began as a mane.

And in the Nine Hells, the Baatezu often start off as Lemures, petitioners molded into the shape of molten flesh demons, who are promoted at random:


Ecology: Occasionally a lemure is selected to form a spinagon, a least baatezu. This is done randomly, and is not based on merit, although sometimes, for the pleasure of the baatezu involved, more than one lemure is selected for such a promotion. The mindless lemures are pitted against each other in a brutal fight to the death. Winners of such a fight are either promoted to spinagons or slaughtered outright, depending on their entertainment value.

If anything, it is incredibly valuable for an evil person to be even more evil, as to skip the torment of being the lowest caste of fiend. If you were particularily evil, you could probably be promoted as soon as you got there as a powerful asset for your superiors.

Of course, this assumes you have the requisite ranks in Knowledge (the planes). The average thug isn't going to know or care about fiend hierarchy, so his CE behind is gonna get kicked right into manedom.

[Nettlekid]

Huh. That actually makes a lot of sense, thank you. Is there RAW about how you arrive in the various planes? Do you show up as yourself, or some other plane-appropriate form, do you have your gear, etc?

Preninja'd by Khatoblepas, but just to be general, yeah, you become a Petitioner of the plane. Each plane's Petitioner is described in each plane's section of Manual of the Planes. They're pretty weak, basically just plane-appropriate spirit forms with limited memory and capability of their old life. That's why no dead Wizards just Plane Shift back to the world of the living, they basically don't exist as what they were anymore.

It makes you wonder about Raise Dead and the like. If a spirit became a Petitioner, what happens to their place when they get popped back?

[Rubik]

Could always go with the more philosophical, "Without evil, how would you know what good is?"

Aside that whole derailing thought, remember that devils and demons exist to corrupt mortal being on the material plane to further their armies in the Blood War and their war on good. Offering rewards in the present for payment at a later time. It is easy to take a good man and corrupt him with a seemingly innocent act. All you need do is keep certain details from him.

Offer a man $100 to walk away from his post for a minute. Odds are he will take the money. You kill someone because he wasn't there. He just fascilitated murder through greed/negligence.

Simple as that. He is now evil for having literally done nothing wrong.That's not how alignment works. You don't change alignment for unknowingly facilitating someone else's horrific deed unless there's magic involved.

[Twilightwyrm]

The other thing to keep in mind is, if you worship a deity, chances are good you will go to their afterlife. So you're a chaotic/neutral evil thief that doesn't particularly want to burn in the abyss? Make sure you stick to the worship of Olidammara. Find Lawful Evil more to your liking? Worship Hextor, Wee Jas, or even St. Cuthbert (his clerics cannot be evil, but that is not to say his worshipers cannot). One of those humanoid tribes that is evil, but would not overall appreciate being sent to hell/the abyss? Worship your race's patron diety, and join them in the afterlife! So if you are a rational, evil individual (to the extant to which this is possible anyways), you get on board with some church asap and do your best to please its deity.

[Zweisteine]

The afterlives are designed to be paradise based on your mentality.
This is incorrect. The good afterlives, and, to a degree, the neutral ones, are designed to be paradises. The same might go for the afterlives some evil dieites bring their followers to, but the generic evil afterlives are not, in any way, shape, or form, paradises. Go take a look as the Fiendish Codices if you want proof. One of them explicitly states that Baator is the devil's soul-eating realm, where they torment and destroy the souls of the evil dead in order to fuel their endless war against the demons. In both Baator and the Abyss, all but the absolute strongest souls are turned into low-level fiends, and their old personalities are erased by the transformation.


An evil person in our world would still probably be Neutral by the D&D standard, leaning toward Evil.
No. This is not true at all. The people we consider evil are generally thieves and murderers, and many of them are evil. Sure, a petty criminal who just shoplifts a candy store might not be evil, but we don't usually view them that way, either. Someone who performs armed bank robberies, on the other hand, is more of a career criminal, and almost certainly (over 99% likely) evil. Then there are the people we look at and say "evil:" murderers, and the like. Anyone who would willingly and consciously kill another human is unquestionably evil, as murder is the height of evil.


For a Lawful Evil character, who's all about twisting rules and getting to the top of the pile...
Also, an evil character does not necessarily take joy in breaking rules. Lawful characters could be anyone with a personal code that they strictly follow, or anyone who acts in a logical manner dictated by some sort of rules. A personal code for a lawful evil character might be this: Put yourself above all others. Do not help the weak, do not waste resources on those who do not deserve them, except where it would benefit you, even indirectly. Do not disrespect those who are above you, for they may punish you. Never give up power willingly. Respect the law, for you are not above it (though if you make the laws, you may make any law you wish).

That leads to a power-hungry evil politician, who cares nothing for those he tramples on his way to power, but respects the law, and doesn't try to twist the rules.


EDITS:

Huh. That actually makes a lot of sense, thank you. Is there RAW about how you arrive in the various planes? Do you show up as yourself, or some other plane-appropriate form, do you have your gear, etc?
You show up in the lower planes, at least, as a least fiend, without memories of your former self, I believe.

Khatoblepas, please cite the sources of those quotes. And Wikipedia is not a good source of information, as it often lacks details provided in various splatbooks.

[Rubik]

No. This is not true at all. The people we consider evil are generally thieves and murderers, and many of them are evil. Sure, a petty criminal who just shoplifts a candy store might not be evil, but we don't usually view them that way, either. Someone who performs armed bank robberies, on the other hand, is more of a career criminal, and almost certainly (over 99% likely) evil. Then there are the people we look at and say "evil:" murderers, and the like. Anyone who would willingly and consciously kill another human is unquestionably evil, as murder is the height of evil.Actually, technically, murder is unlawful killing. So it's Chaotic, not actually Evil. It's quite possible to murder someone and have it be a Neutral act. And it's considerably more possible to kill someone and have it be a Good act. It depends entirely on the reasons and the circumstances.

Example: Someone breaks into your home and tortures your children? Killing to protect them is definitely not Evil.

[Zweisteine]

Actually, technically, murder is unlawful killing. So it's Chaotic, not actually Evil. It's quite possible to murder someone and have it be a Good act.:smallannoyed: You know exactly what I meant.

And I would argue that even killing a mass murderer is evil, though ridding the world of them is a good that just about balances it out, but that is not an argument for this thread (and please don't make a thread for it, because we really don't need any more of that type of thread, and I don't have the time on my hands to be sucked into that particular debate).


Also, to clear up any difficulties about the conditions in the lower planes, I call upon the might of Afroakuma, keeper of all knowledge of the planes!
Afro! Afro! Afro!

[Big Fau]

It's also stated in FC2 that LE characters often know that they'll become devils when they die. The thing is, a great deal of them don't know that the process completely deletes their personality and memories and that they are guaranteed to start as a lowly Lemure (most think they'll start as a Barbed Devil or some other high-ranking Baatezu).

They actually think that they'll be given incredible power at no cost when they finally die, and are often furious/crushed when they find out the truth.

[Zweisteine]

As Big Fau stated, most evil people know little, if anything, of their afterlives. If they know they will become fiends, they believe they will be fiends of equal or greater power than their living selves, and with their personalities intact.

To answer the original question, evil characters exist because people want power, and being evil is often the fastest, easiest way to get it (at least in fantasy).

[Rubik]

Anyone ever wonder why evil spellcasters willingly become liches?

They learn the awful truth and refuse to submit to it.

[olentu]

If you really want to have a not terrible afterlife you need to insure that you continue to be yourself instead of a memory wiped petitioner. For that you need power and being evil often makes the acquisition of that easier.

[Coidzor]

Anyone ever wonder why evil spellcasters willingly become liches?

They learn the awful truth and refuse to submit to it.

"Be a vampire, or a ghost, or an immortal with a paint-by-numbers portrait in the rec room. Hell, even a brain-in-a-jar, in a pinch.

Anything to avoid the Big Fire Below."
- :xykon:

[Dawgmoah]

The easy answer is its human nature. If the modern world knew for certain there was an afterlife I honestly don't think that much would change.

I agree: can't tell you how many times I see tattoos like, "I would rather rule in Hell than follow in Heaven." in the ER. People will always try to grab the easy way to power, wealth, or reputation. And many people just don't realize, or maybe don't want to realize, they are downright evil. And no matter what they're told they just don't believe it will happen to them.

[Nettlekid]

"Be a vampire, or a ghost, or an immortal with a paint-by-numbers portrait in the rec room. Hell, even a brain-in-a-jar, in a pinch.

Anything to avoid the Big Fire Below."
- :xykon:

[/thread]

I'm really disappointed in myself for not thinking of that myself. Well done.

[afroakuma]

Slso, to clear up any difficulties about the conditions in the lower planes, I call upon the might of Afroakuma, keeper of all knowledge of the planes!
Afro! Afro! Afro!

Who dares summon the wrath?

You dare. K. Just checking.

Sooo...

Remember first of all that the vast majority of people in-setting don't know their alignment. It's impossible for them to categorically determine "I am Lawful Evil and hellbound on my death." Those are simplifications in rules text of what gets interpreted by magic in-setting as more nebulous connotations.

Now, remember that your fate is determined by your soul; the effects of a magic item aren't enough to correct a lifetime of wickedness. Fantasy Voltaire, on his deathbed, does not quip "Bring me the Safety Hat, that I might not cook forever in perdition." You're familiar with the old saw "One good deed does not redeem a lifetime of wickedness;" well, zero good deeds and a hat definitely won't.

Remember too that even moreso than your alignment, your faith determines a great deal regarding your ultimate disposition. Set's realm may be in Hell, but Set's realm itself is perfect for those who devoutly follow Set. Similarly, parts of many of the Upper Planes are places where you would not want to find yourself (the endless deserts of Pelion, the deadly shadows of Karasuthra, the infinite smelting cauldron of Muspelheim). So too does Hell have grand academies of cunning and crosstalk, the Abyss mighty cities of pleasures and whole infinities of nothing but sex, sex, sex.

Point is, your fate is not cut-and-dried and objective; no spell exists that can compass your afterlife in advance. And that's just as well.

You see, the nature of a truly evil soul is that doing good deeds for the ultimate in selfish rewards doesn't cause any amount of redemption. It's not what the planes want, nor what the gods want, nor even, though you may not know it at the time, what you want. You may fear pain and torment and oblivion, but deep down, that which makes you evil craves that which it paints for itself as a dark paradise deep within the Lower Planes. Do you, a sadist, want an afterlife of puppies and kittens you're unable to cause pain to? Do you, the Machiavellian manipulator, want an eternity surrounded by hardworking aw-shucks types whose impenetrable goodwill causes all your favorite pastimes and understandings of social structure to slide right off of them?

Evil is not a choice, nor are any of the other alignments. Good falling to evil is never a matter of expediency alone, nor is redemption a simple task of apologizing and promising not to do it again. Many who are evil believe themselves to be good, as do many who are neutral. Many who are lawful believe that they are upholding freedoms. Many who are chaotic believe that they are part of a greater order.

Finally, the simple fact is that the vast majority have no idea what any of the afterlives are like beyond what others tell them. Clerics aren't encouraged to go opening portals willy-nilly for demonstration (they're damaging to the Prime) and these people live in a world of illusionists where charlatans looking to pick your pocket all too often know a trick to fascinate or hypnotize you with basic magic.

[Svata]

and NOW we can [/thread] this. So has the afro spoken, and so it is.

[Zweisteine]

For a Lawful Evil character, who's all about twisting rules and getting to the top of the pile
The other problem with this is that a character who is "all about twisting the rules" would most likely be neutral, or, more likely chaotic. A lawful characetr follows rules, though they may break rules that go against their personal code/morals/ethics. Neutral characters generally do whatever is in their best interests, which usually entails following the rules, because breaking them has punishment. Chaotic characters, on the other hand, most likely do not respect rules, and might take joy in taking advantage of them and twisting them to serve another purpose.

and NOW we can [/thread] this. So has the afro spoken, and so it is.
But there's still so much discussion... Such as why the people who become evil non-adventurers to gain power didn't just become good adventurers, which works just as well for gaining power.


Or maybe, just maybe, so many people are evil because they chose to gain power via Pazuzu.

[Eldan]

Or because maybe, just maybe, being evil is not a choice. It's what you are and you're not going to change it.

[Vrock_Summoner]

Let's say there's this super-prison IRL that reputably has terrible living conditions but that you don't know anything about. As a petty criminal, you know you probably won't get thrown in the big prison. The security of that gives them a big head, so unless you turn back now out of fear or a change of heart, you do what greedy people do. You test the system. In D&D it's doing more Evil and dangerous things, in the example it's trying to edge ahead of the system and slip little things past the radar.

Eventually, you start amassing power because, hey, they haven't caught you yet and if you made it this far you must be unstoppable (hey it's legit Evil logic). Then you get to the point where you're the one on top. You can pay someone to hack into the super prison cameras now, see what it's like in there. And it's worse than you ever imagined. Those criminals get degraded to less than human, they are tortured, they are fed to the guards on a whim and forced to battle each other to the death. Everything that could possibly disturb you is there, and you are so, ever so disturbed.

... But wait. You're already so powerful! There are so many ways I can avoid this! Never get caught (immortality), cheat the legal system (alignment trickery), try to shoot straight to the top in there (try to become a high-ranking fiend), hell, if you need a last resort go get caught in another prison (shift planes or become the worshipper of an evil god that gives comfortable living conditions to worshippers). Not like any of these could go wrong...

... Right?

[afroakuma]

why the people who become evil non-adventurers to gain power didn't just become good adventurers, which works just as well for gaining power.

Adventurers have a bad habit of coming down with a serious case of the dead. For the vast majority of those, it's sort of an incurable condition. :smalltongue:

[Psyren]

Here is the action that will give you a good afterlife:

Be seen as useful and competent and achieving your patron god's goals, who will then reward you in his private afterlife if he likes you.


Even if that afterlife is technically in Hell. In other words, ALL gods reward their best followers when they die...

The problem though is that the evil deities are almost all sadistic. The proportion that actually get this reward (i.e. are allowed to skip the Mane/Dretch/Lemure melting-down phase of nonstop torture) are very, very few.

Just about every evil creature who knows about the afterlife waiting for them is also hoping to "beat the odds."

[AMFV]

Because for them the evil afterlife isn't a punishment. For the Chaotic Evil, it's a place where one can do literally anything if one is strong enough, they literally can rise to become demons if they're strong enough. For the Lawful, if they play the right cards and handle politics they can rise to control thousands. For the Neutral Evil, well it's more confusing for them, their cosmology is less well defined, by virtue of never having gotten a direct supplement.

In any case, for them the afterlife is a place where they can continue to operate in the manner they did in life, except this time, it's all on them, there is no good overarching force trying to subsume their desires, they're stripped free of guilt or conscience, it's the perfect afterlife them, for those who seek out those things, it's paradise.

[Red Fel]

Echoing a sentiment that's been expressed before, not all people in D&D are morally conscious. In fact, I would argue that many NPCs are not. They don't give thought to notions of good and evil, right and wrong. They just act. Commoners just farm, aristocrats just prance, experts just craft. They go through their daily lives without much regard for what comes after. If they do Evil, they do so as a matter of routine or perceived necessity. A Commoner who decides to take a level in Rogue to rob people on the street doesn't stop to think, "But what about my ultimate concerns?" He thinks, "Man, I'm hungry. If I stab you and take your money, I can afford bread."

The afterlife isn't much of a deterrent to those who don't give it any thought.

[afroakuma]

The problem though is that the evil deities are almost all sadistic. The proportion that actually get this reward (i.e. are allowed to skip the Mane/Dretch/Lemure melting-down phase of nonstop torture) are very, very few.

Well that's not right.

Turning things into fiends of any stripe denatures them. This is useful for fiends, but useless for gods. Evil gods may torture or exploit their petitioners, but generally they want the exact same thing that all other gods do: for their petitioners to merge with them. In short, followers of evil deities get the rewards they seek. Followers of fiends, now, they get the short end of an ugly stick.

[Renen]

Then there are the people we look at and say "evil:" murderers, and the like. Anyone who would willingly and consciously kill another human is unquestionably evil, as murder is the height of evil.

Except for stuff like human sacrifices of cultures like Mayans. There its for their god.

[Psyren]

Well that's not right.

Turning things into fiends of any stripe denatures them. This is useful for fiends, but useless for gods. Evil gods may torture or exploit their petitioners, but generally they want the exact same thing that all other gods do: for their petitioners to merge with them. In short, followers of evil deities get the rewards they seek. Followers of fiends, now, they get the short end of an ugly stick.

Why is it useless for gods? Unmerged souls are just as useful a currency for them as it is for fiends. Nor does this really contradict what I said - because merging with, say, Talos or Shar, is unlikely to be a peaceful or pleasant process. It may be different than becoming a fiend, but the soul in question might be hard-pressed to tell the difference.

In fact, FC2 suggests that going to the god can actually be worse for the soul than signing a pact. FC2:


It is permitted, however, for the devils to explain to the new arrivals that they are dead and must await the arrival of divine messengers to take them to their deities’ realms. During that time, the devils can attempt to bargain with the souls.

Some souls—especially those pledged to evil deities and those that fear the punishments they might suffer in their deities’ realms—jump at the opportunity to avoid their fates. In exchange for consigning themselves to the Nine Hells, such souls might be offered early promotion from lemure form, material riches for friends and family in Faerûn, or the services of devilish attacks on their still-living enemies. Especially powerful souls can even bargain for automatic promotion into a form other than that of a lemure.

[jedipotter]

Given these facts...why are there non-insane evil people around? If a person is naturally Lawful Evil (or whatever) but is intelligent and rational, why would she not say "Hm. If I act the way I want to act, then when I die I will go to Tartarus [or wherever] and burn in firey writhing mangling ripping tearing oh-god-it's-awful agony for all of eternity. Or, I could spend 4k gp on a Helm of Opposite Alignment and go to Elysium [or wherever]."

Well, quote: It is better to rule in Hell then serve in Heaven. And your average evil person believes that.

Most evil afterlives are not the ''burning forever'' style. After all, remember the ''burning'' story was made by the good guys to scare others into not being evil.

What a Petitioner is varies a bit from book to edition, but the basic idea is that you would get an ultimate reward or either being an outsider or merging with your god. Sure only a handful of Petitioners ever get the ultimate reward......but, naturally, every thinks they are the exception. ''Oh, sure everyone else will be a lavra, but I'll be a demon prince!"

But most evil folks won't want to change....why would they? Look at it like this: Why are there criminals if we have laws and prisons? Well, most criminals think they won't get caught. And evil folks think the same thing about the after life. Or they just don't care.

[afroakuma]

Why is it useless for gods? Unmerged souls are just as useful a currency for them as it is for fiends.

Yes, but gods all need petitioners merging with them in order to thrive and hold power. Consigning one's own petitioners to become fiends essentially cuts off one's own nose to spite one's face. Evil gods cull "spending money" souls from the larvae fields or from those who they are entitled to claim who don't have what it takes to merge with the god (the unfaithful and weak).


Nor does this really contradict what I said - because merging with, say, Talos or Shar, is unlikely to be a peaceful or pleasant process.

It's both, actually. The process of merging is largely passive for a petitioner, and involves spiritual growth towards being more like your god in every way. In the end, they become a living and real part of exactly what they want to be, a form of cosmopolitan shared apotheosis. It's the aspiration of all petitioners who are actually faithful to their gods.


It may be different than becoming a fiend, but the soul in question might be hard-pressed to tell the difference.

Nah, it's a pretty noticeable difference.


In fact, FC2 suggests that going to the god can actually be worse for the soul than signing a pact. FC2:

FC2 isn't the best of books, but I'll explain how the play works. They based it on the Fugue Plain from FR, with the notion being that the newly dead, not certain of what the afterlife will mean but quite certain that they're disoriented and in an alien environment, are great targets for devils offering deals. In FR, unfaithful souls are dealt with by Kelemvor; in other cosmologies, though, they're free for grabs to whoever they gave lip service to, and the useless sods can make for fun punching bags (their souls aren't compatible for merging purposes). Gods defend their faithful because when they don't, they starve.

[Phelix-Mu]

The major thing about life and afterlife is that they are pretty different places. There really aren't enough ways to say "the Outer Planes are not at all like the Prime."

Evil people are often extremely egocentric and self-serving in life. They may impress the denizens of the Lower Planes with their actions in life, they may not. Likely not. If your life as a demon lord was an endless series of infinite blasphemies, Idric the Insane, wizard mastermind of the rape and pillage of the north, is kind of like a blip in the crawl at the bottom of the news station channel. Evil mortals are pretty common, and they all tend to think highly of themselves.

Of course, in keeping with the sadism of the Lower Planes, the first thing you do when a batch of egocentric evil wannabe demon lords shows up is turn them into evil blank slates, retaining all that delicious evil instinct while losing all the troublesome individuality and memories. I'm sure the process isn't perfect, but evil souls are generally not treated well (but, as noted, would they want to be?).

And, for those of you feeling like this kind of shafts evil mortals, I'd also like to point out that personality erasure is probably a long-term side effect of the good afterlife as well. Not so much forced reformatting, but after centuries living in an unchanging paradise, all of the petitioners of the Upper Planes generally forget their mortal woes, acclimatize to their new home, and become more and more like each other. After all, a good deal of what mortals use to define themselves as individuals comes from pain, suffering, and regret, or the inherent unfairness and randomness of Prime Material life. Once you leave all that behind, all that "personality" stuff is pretty useless. Sure, you might still love the Yankees or whatever, but they have baseball every day in Elysium, and it's always the best game ever, and everyone always wins. So you don't really follow the Yankees anymore. The same process probably happens for everything (especially in Elysium).

Also, personality loss is likely a side-effect of the chaotic and lawful afterlives as well. Obviously, in Mechanus everyone's personalities morph to create the perfect social mechanism of ultimate order and harmony. In Limbo, everything explodes all of the time, and the individual petitioner is pretty much up to their own devices to survive, resulting in a gradual transition to PTSD/survival mindset/insanity to cope with the otherwise random churn of existence therein.

So, in short, if you like being alive because of all the stuff you've done and seen and suffered, then enjoy it while you can. Once it's gone, it's gone, and what replaces it is different. Very different.

[jedipotter]

because merging with, say, Talos or Shar, is unlikely to be a peaceful or pleasant process. It may be different than becoming a fiend, but the soul in question might be hard-pressed to tell the difference.


It would not be unpleasant if you worshiped and believed in Talos or Shar. An evil druid full of rage who spent his life ''bringing the storm'' to others would happily merge with Talos. As would the evil politician merge with Shar.

And also, plenty of people want to become fiends, or other outsiders. To be immortal and have a chance to climb the ranks of afterlife....and maybe just maybe, become a Power. Sure it is near impossible, but then a outsider does have forever to do it.

[Psyren]

@afroakuma:

Don't gods only need petitioners in FR? In other settings they either want them without truly needing them (e.g. Greyhawk/Golarion), or don't care at all (Eberron.)

Also, I still disagree with you. Per Complete Divine, merging with the deity itself is actually pretty rare - reserved for particularly upstanding (or lowdown) exemplars of their faith. This is covered under "Join the Godhead", CDiv 130. And for the evil deities, this is described as being "consumed like ordinary food" - hardly a pleasant experience. For the "vast majority of souls," the main option is "Become One with the Plane" (CDiv 129). Though this isn't described in great detail, they do describe the Abyss as "a place of mad cruelty" which wouldn't fit at all with the kind of passive introspection/spiritual growth you describe.

Finally, I don't see why you describe FC2 as "not the best of books." It seems quite well-written to me, particularly in articulating the reasons that devils are often at odds even with other evil powers, and expanding on many of the concepts raised in BoVD.

[afroakuma]

@afroakuma:

Don't gods only need petitioners in FR? In other settings they either want them without truly needing them (e.g. Greyhawk/Golarion), or don't care at all (Eberron.)

Well, I'm going off of older canon here, since I find a lot of the newer books are expedient and crappy papier-maché facsimiles of a better era of fluff. S'what I was called to this thread to do, and it's what I'm doing. If you want to operate off only 3.X sources, feel free, but I'm not going to engage on any of those points. Anyway, per general canon, all gods that are gods, at least in the Great Wheel cosmology, need petitioners and merging therewith to survive. That affects or affected Dragonlance, Greyhawk, FR and many others. Golarion is not a D&D world and beyond the scope of this thread, while Eberron's deities aren't the same thing and have never been acknowledged as using the same cosmology.


Also, I still disagree with you.

You're welcome to do so. I still disagree with you too. Gonna keep on doing so, if you don't mind. :smalltongue:


Finally, I don't see why you describe FC2 as "not the best of books."

Because it and its brother are not the best of books. :smallconfused:

[Sam K]

In the D&D world it is well known that the afterlife exists, and what actions will get you the good afterlife and what will get you the bad afterlife. Also, magic exists that will change a person's alignment.

Given these facts...why are there non-insane evil people around? If a person is naturally Lawful Evil (or whatever) but is intelligent and rational, why would she not say "Hm. If I act the way I want to act, then when I die I will go to Tartarus [or wherever] and burn in firey writhing mangling ripping tearing oh-god-it's-awful agony for all of eternity. Or, I could spend 4k gp on a Helm of Opposite Alignment and go to Elysium [or wherever]."

In real life it is well known that smoking is bad for you. It is expensive and addictive. It makes you smell bad. You are going to see negative effects to your health, which will possibly include a painfull death. AND IT DOESN'T EVEN FEEL GOOD THE FIRST FEW TIMES; people who start smoking most often have to force themselves the first few times.

Yet people smoke. So honestly, when it comes to instant gratification vs long term benefit, the real question would be "how come there are any GOOD people in D&D"? I mean, evil can actually get you something besides lung cancer!

And hell isn't designed to be a paradise for evil people. Hell is the embodiment of the principles of evil. Very few people who like to victimize others like being victimized themselves, and hell isn't the plan of "Getting to beat kids up and take their candy." Hell is where YOU end up being the kid. With no candy. But those big bullies dont believe you. Some devotedly evil people may think that hell is just (as in, if they weren't powerful enough to take power there, they deserve to be victimized and abused), a fatalistic few may feel that they are bound for hell anyway so they might as well enjoy the ride, but it's not a nice place. It's not a paradise, not even if you managed to survive more than 5 minutes as a Paladin of Slaughter. It might, however, be the best place you're likely to go (atleast you dont have to worry about ascending if you forget to stab just one puppy).

[Psyren]

@afroakuma:

Of course I'm using 3.5 sources - this is the 3.5 subforum after all. There's an "older editions" subforum where we can discuss D&D morality/cosmology from those sources, or even a "general roleplaying" forum to compare and contrast changes to the system over time, but given the location of this particular thread, the sources I cited are the most relevant to the discussion at hand, your opinion of those books notwithstanding.

I can respect your belief that planar cosmology was better handled in earlier editions - I really wouldn't know either way - but I see absolutely no problem with the the way it was addressed in 3.x/PF.

[afroakuma]

I can respect your belief that planar cosmology was better handled in earlier editions - I really wouldn't know either way - but I see absolutely no problem with the the way it was addressed in 3.x

The simple problem with how it was handled in 3.X is that it wasn't. 2E sources were canonical until replaced... but then said replacement got pulled in more directions than a piece of taffy in Limbo. The only thing 3.X is consistent about is inconsistency, which is what makes its sources so troublesome to work with. Adding to the chaos is the canonicity of novels, which is sometimes upheld and sometimes left out in the woods, even when it's a 3.X source dealing with 2E novels. The result is a bizarre mishmash of "yes and here's why" and "no ignore that source" that doesn't really allow for establishment of canonicity.

Anyway, returning back to your 3.X-based challenge, Complete Divine doesn't acknowledge anything definitive about the fate of souls of the faithful. It says that the vast majority of souls become part of the plane, without explaining what that means beyond implying that it puts them out of reach of resurrection, and also without stipulating whether these are the souls of the strongly faithful or just the bulk of souls, relatively directionless, that end up in each plane. All it gives us is that they cease being an independent existence and come to wish to remain where they are (it's cited as the reason resurrection isn't more common). That's not incompatible with other fates further described.

I've read the "Join the Godhead" paragraph you directed my attention to.


Some souls become so linked with the deific force of a particular deity that they effectively become part of that deity. Depending on the deity, the soul may or may not have a choice in the matter.

There are absolutely no stipulations as to rarity, or any indication at all that it's uncommon. Nor, as noted above, is it at all incompatible with other listed outcomes; a favored soul much like the deity is, for instance, an excellent candidate for responding to divinations in the same manner that the deity would until the time comes to merge. Reading past that, "effectively become" seems separate from "absorbed," with the latter indicating a fuller and greater form of incorporation than the comparatively passive and streamlined former. There's no stipulation whatsoever as to which souls evil deities eat, not why, just that one manner of becoming one with the godhead is to become one with the godbelly, a fate I'm sure many would cheerfully and preferentially impart to the souls of their enemies.

Anyway, rather than pursue any form of this argument further, I'm going to call my original purpose in this thread complete. If you feel the need to respond to me, please reach out to me by PM.

[Firechanter]

Gotta say I disagree with the claim that most evil people in a D&D world wouldn't know they are Evil. However, my assessment hinges on one assumption, which I will explain below. My line of thought is as follows:

1. Deities in D&D actually factually exist within their setting. This is a major difference to the real world, where we simply cannot know, and all kinds of people get to claim all kinds of things about all kinds of gods and no deity ever protests.
2. I _assume_ that most people worship a deity whose Alignment is close to their own. While no hard and fast rule about this exists (except for Clerics), I think that Evil persons simply won't choose a Good deities.
3. Good and Evil are much less a matter of definition in D&D, but are much more like moral absolutes. And here's the kicker: being Evil is not regarded as _Bad_, at least by the Evils. On the contrary, for them Evil is good, and Good is bad.
I suppose that D&D languages will have separate words for good and Good, btw.

A Colombian drug lord may be responsible for countless of crimes and order the execution of a dozen people before breakfast -- but after breakfast he goes to church and prays happily in the knowledge that the Lord is on his side. Because he defines himself as a devout Catholic.
That simply wouldn't fly in a D&D world, I think.

[Segev]

I have to say that the whole "merge with your deity" thing sounds an awful lot, to me, like "be eaten as a snack." I've never understood how the Buddhist concept of Nirvana - achieving a state of such one-ness that one becomes subsumed in Nirvana itself - could be anything other than utterly horrifying, and, were I to believe in the faith's premises and teachings, I would seek to be antithetical to one who walks the path portrayed as "good" in its lights.

The whole "petitioners lose all memories" thing has always been horrifying to me, existentially. Good or evil, it strikes me as the sort of thing that justifies all the fear-of-death exhibited by mortals who seek ways to avoid it.

[Rubik]

I have to say that the whole "merge with your deity" thing sounds an awful lot, to me, like "be eaten as a snack." I've never understood how the Buddhist concept of Nirvana - achieving a state of such one-ness that one becomes subsumed in Nirvana itself - to be utterly horrifying, and, were I to believe in the faith's premises and teachings, I would seek to be antithetical to one who walks the path portrayed as "good" in its lights.

The whole "petitioners lose all memories" thing has always been horrifying to me, existentially. Good or evil, it strikes me as the sort of thing that justifies all the fear-of-death exhibited by mortals who seek ways to avoid it.+1,000,001.

This is NOT something to aspire to.

[Psyren]

The simple problem with how it was handled in 3.X is that it wasn't. 2E sources were canonical until replaced... but then said replacement got pulled in more directions than a piece of taffy in Limbo. The only thing 3.X is consistent about is inconsistency, which is what makes its sources so troublesome to work with. Adding to the chaos is the canonicity of novels, which is sometimes upheld and sometimes left out in the woods, even when it's a 3.X source dealing with 2E novels. The result is a bizarre mishmash of "yes and here's why" and "no ignore that source" that doesn't really allow for establishment of canonicity.

If that's how you feel then let's talk specifics. What is inconsistent about it? Because every splat I've read about the fate of souls after death more or less gels with the general account in Complete Divine, even the accounts of undeath from Libris Mortis. When they deviate from these guidelines with specific exceptions, e.g. Heroes of Horror, they tend to call them out as variants (e.g. resurrection bringing back the wrong spirit.)



Anyway, returning back to your 3.X-based challenge, Complete Divine doesn't acknowledge anything definitive about the fate of souls of the faithful. It says that the vast majority of souls become part of the plane, without explaining what that means beyond implying that it puts them out of reach of resurrection, and also without stipulating whether these are the souls of the strongly faithful or just the bulk of souls, relatively directionless, that end up in each plane. All it gives us is that they cease being an independent existence and come to wish to remain where they are (it's cited as the reason resurrection isn't more common). That's not incompatible with other fates further described.

This is part of what confuses me about your stance - you yourself admit here that CDiv's account is not incompatible with that of the others. But beyond that, you seem to want CDiv to elaborate in greater detail, when it really doesn't need to do so; it's supposed to be up to the DM what happens to a dead soul after all, so by limiting itself to broad strokes of possibility the book is doing its job of giving the DM story ideas without running the campaign for him/her.



There are absolutely no stipulations as to rarity, or any indication at all that it's uncommon.

On the contrary: if two options are mutually exclusive, and one option is noted as "the vast majority," then the remaining one must logically be rare. You can't have two mutually exclusive majorities in the same solution set after all.

If x + y = 1, and x > 0.5 (and "vast" may even mean "> 0.75") then y must < 0.5, and may even be < 0.25.



Anyway, rather than pursue any form of this argument further, I'm going to call my original purpose in this thread complete. If you feel the need to respond to me, please reach out to me by PM.

That's certainly your prerogative, but I see no reason to take my own responses offline when they may benefit the OP or others reading this thread. If you need me I'll be here.

[Axinian]

"Being evil isn't a choice" is a bad way to phrase it. It's most certainly a choice, it's just that everyone is the hero of their own story. People in D&D gain the evil alignment because of the choices the've made. As Afro even said, they just don't necessarily KNOW their alignment or the alignment of their actions. Very few say "I CHOOSE EVIL" and actually believe their choice to be evil and/or wrong.

[afroakuma]

Right, so, for the record I meant Psyren could PM me if he wanted to pursue that further. Wasn't intended as an open door. :smallredface:

So, since I've been compelled back here, for expediency's sake Psyren is 100% correct on every point, I should never have shown up in this thread or challenged his position, please ignore the man in the big hair.

[Zweisteine]

Because for them the evil afterlife isn't a punishment. For the Chaotic Evil, it's a place where one can do literally anything if one is strong enough, they literally can rise to become demons if they're strong enough. For the Lawful, if they play the right cards and handle politics they can rise to control thousands. For the Neutral Evil, well it's more confusing for them, their cosmology is less well defined, by virtue of never having gotten a direct supplement.

In any case, for them the afterlife is a place where they can continue to operate in the manner they did in life, except this time, it's all on them, there is no good overarching force trying to subsume their desires, they're stripped free of guilt or conscience, it's the perfect afterlife them, for those who seek out those things, it's paradise.
Go back and read the rest of the thread. This has been stated to be incorrect multiple times.


Except for stuff like human sacrifices of cultures like Mayans. There its for their god.
The murder is still evil (though perhaps not if it is willing sacrifice, or sacrifice of a criminal). The act of the sacrifice may not be, and, in this case, it might balance out.

[Psyren]

Psyren is 100% correct on every point

Sorely tempted to sig this out of context :smallwink:

Regardless, good on you for coming back, some folks like to "take their ball and go home" in a debate (so to speak) and you have my respect for not going that route.

***

Anyway, to reiterate for the OP - I think there are 4 camps of evil in D&D:

1) Those who don't know or have been lied to about what awaits them;
2) Those who know, but (due to nihilism/insanity/etc.) don't care;
3) Those who know and care, and seek immortality to avoid this fate;
4) Those who know and care, but are deluded about their chances of avoiding horrific "conversion." (I'm such a badass, it couldn't happen to me.")

Note that at least a few of the ones in Camp 4 are actually right about being too valuable to lose their memories. OotS went this route with the three epic-level spliced casters, letting them keep their memories and toys. However, given the lines in CDiv, it's safe to assume that many (if not most) of the ones who think they are safe in camp 4 turn out to be woefully incorrect.

[Phelix-Mu]

The whole "petitioners lose all memories" thing has always been horrifying to me, existentially. Good or evil, it strikes me as the sort of thing that justifies all the fear-of-death exhibited by mortals who seek ways to avoid it.

Except, ironically, even living forever probably whitewashes personality out of you after a while. Remember, personality is the sum of our natural instincts and traits and the things we've learned from daily experiences. As memories stack up over the centuries and magic/various is used to sustain our "natural" existence, a person probably still becomes less and less like themselves over time.

The point being that the things we value about ourselves while we are alive are innately transient. This may vary somewhat for longer lived races, but an eternity beyond the fear of death is not at all like "living forever." Nobody "lives forever." You can avoid death, but whether that is "living" is a totally different matter.

[afroakuma]

Sorely tempted to sig this out of context :smallwink:

Would be very bad form indeed.


Regardless, good on you for coming back, some folks like to "take their ball and go home" in a debate (so to speak) and you have my respect for not going that route.

Please don't take my desire to disengage from debate as any suggestion that I legitimately concede your points. I've addressed the OP's question, and don't want to participate in this tangent any further than I already have, so I'm not going to. If that counts as "taking my ball and going home," then so be it.

[Psyren]

Would be very bad form indeed.



Please don't take my desire to disengage from debate as any suggestion that I legitimately concede your points. I've addressed the OP's question, and don't want to participate in this tangent any further than I already have, so I'm not going to. If that counts as "taking my ball and going home," then so be it.

Very well; take care!

[Cirrylius]

Disincarnate souls get on okay in Hell. Worshippers get on okay in Hell. The only way Hell is Hell for you is if you're both evil and a non-theist AND you get remade as a larva or fiend.

So. Considering the value of mortal souls to gods, both good and evil gods should logically be telling their clergy to yell the truth about eternal torment at the mortal world; good to try and save them, evil to try and win them. My only guess as to why this isn't actually the case is that-

1) good gods don't want to lose the "scare 'em straight" angle by encouraging bad people to worship evil gods rather than become good, or-

2) it somehow compromises faith if the faith is pursued (even genuinely pursued) for a specific reason, or-

3) it somehow screws up society if mortals know their ultimate destination, and the gods are trying to maintain stability by just letting it happen.

[hamishspence]

FC2 took the approach that most LE souls are incarnated as "soul shells" and tormented, then remade as fiends (lemures).

[Renen]

Go back and read the rest of the thread. This has been stated to be incorrect multiple times.


The murder is still evil (though perhaps not if it is willing sacrifice, or sacrifice of a criminal). The act of the sacrifice may not be, and, in this case, it might balance out.

Murder is only evil because people saw murder and said "that thing there, its evil"

Just like evading taxes is evil (of some variation). Because goverment says that not paying taxes is baaaaad.

Which is why some evil people wont consider themselves evil. Because they dont agree with society on the defenition.

[pwykersotz]

Murder is only evil because people saw murder and said "that thing there, its evil"

Just like evading taxes is evil (of some variation). Because goverment says that not paying taxes is baaaaad.

Which is why some evil people wont consider themselves evil. Because they dont agree with society on the defenition.

Not true in D&D. Ultimately good and evil are objective, not subjective. People may still perceive that they are subjective though, hence your example.

[AuraTwilight]

Except, ironically, even living forever probably whitewashes personality out of you after a while. Remember, personality is the sum of our natural instincts and traits and the things we've learned from daily experiences. As memories stack up over the centuries and magic/various is used to sustain our "natural" existence, a person probably still becomes less and less like themselves over time.

The point being that the things we value about ourselves while we are alive are innately transient. This may vary somewhat for longer lived races, but an eternity beyond the fear of death is not at all like "living forever." Nobody "lives forever." You can avoid death, but whether that is "living" is a totally different matter.

Easy solution to this problem: "In the afterlife, your 'self' is preserved as it was in life without contradicting your ability to grow as a person. Doesn't make sense? Welcome to the D&D Multiverse, it never really did."

[The Cat Goddess]

That's not how alignment works. You don't change alignment for unknowingly facilitating someone else's horrific deed unless there's magic involved.

Unless you're a Paladin.


But there's still so much discussion... Such as why the people who become evil non-adventurers to gain power didn't just become good adventurers, which works just as well for gaining power.

Because being an Adventurer is Dangerous... being a Mayor or Vizer is only dangerous if you really mess up and get caught.
----------------------------

There are evil people in D&D-type worlds because the story requires it.
There are evil people in D&D-type worlds because Art imitates Life.
There are evil people in D&D-type worlds because Adventurers need something to do.
There are evil people in D&D-type worlds because Evil is Sexy, and Intelligent Evil is Super-Sexy.

[BrokenChord]

Murder is only evil because people saw murder and said "that thing there, its evil"

Just like evading taxes is evil (of some variation). Because goverment says that not paying taxes is baaaaad.

Which is why some evil people wont consider themselves evil. Because they dont agree with society on the defenition.

Hilariously, both of those actions are Chaotic rather than Evil in D&D. But you're right, societies will generally tell you they are "bad" actions.

[TuggyNE]

Murder is only evil because people saw murder and said "that thing there, its evil"

Just like evading taxes is evil (of some variation). Because goverment says that not paying taxes is baaaaad.

Yes please do conflate illegal and immoral, that's fine, that's great. :smallannoyed:

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Not true in D&D. Ultimately good and evil are objective, not subjective. People may still perceive that they are subjective though, hence your example.
Nope. Good and Evil in DnD are what gods say it is, much like society says what it is IRL. And just like you can disagree with society, you can disagree with the gods. Given sufficient power or influence, you can beat all your opponents IRL and make the society you want. Ditto in DnD; with sufficient power you can become immortal, kill some of the other immortals and take their place.

It has happened fairly often; gods have been killed in DnD and new gods rose. Religions and governments have been created IRL, making different laws and preaching different stuff.





Beyond a few generic points, good and evil are entirely subjective.

[123456789blaaa]

Nope. Good and Evil in DnD are what gods say it is, much like society says what it is IRL. And just like you can disagree with society, you can disagree with the gods. Given sufficient power or influence, you can beat all your opponents IRL and make the society you want. Ditto in DnD; with sufficient power you can become immortal, kill some of the other immortals and take their place.

It has happened fairly often; gods have been killed in DnD and new gods rose. Religions and governments have been created IRL, making different laws and preaching different stuff.





Beyond a few generic points, good and evil are entirely subjective.

:smallconfused:

The gods came after the forces of Evil/Good/etc. They're more champions of those cosmic forces rather than shapers of them. It doesn't matter if Lolth says that murdering an innocent wild elf is Good, it's still an Evil act.

[BrokenChord]

Nope. Good and Evil in DnD are what gods say it is, much like society says what it is IRL. And just like you can disagree with society, you can disagree with the gods. Given sufficient power or influence, you can beat all your opponents IRL and make the society you want. Ditto in DnD; with sufficient power you can become immortal, kill some of the other immortals and take their place.

It has happened fairly often; gods have been killed in DnD and new gods rose. Religions and governments have been created IRL, making different laws and preaching different stuff.





Beyond a few generic points, good and evil are entirely subjective.

It has literally nothing to do with the gods. Unless you can just somehow change how the cosmos functions (and trying to do that with magic in D&D is sort of like asking a real person to make every hamburger in the world emit light with nothing but the force of his punches, or in other words it's impossible and nonsensical) then Good and Evil will, in fact, remain objective. They are not moral stances, they are cosmic principles and objective forces. There is a huge, gaping, nearly incomprehensible hole of difference between "good and evil" and Good and Evil. Morally horrible people can be Good, and the people who stand as beacons of everything righteous, kind, and altruistic can still ping Evil on the Paladin's detect-o-meter. Because your, or the gods', or whoever's opinion of right and wrong has literally no bearing on what the universe classifies you as.

[Firechanter]

I disagree with the second half of your statement. Sure, Good is not necessarily Nice, but it's still more than just a lable. Whether your actions define your alignment or vice versa - Good people will do Good things even if they appear rather scruffy or badass.

I can't imagine at all how a "righteous, kind and altruistic" person would register as Evil. An Evil person will only truly care about themselves and those closest to them. They may actually pursue a "Greater Good" which would be commendable, except they have no compunctions about harming innocents in the process. "The end justifies the means" and stuff.

[BrokenChord]

Evil characters aren't necessarily step-on-others types. More importantly, though, I'm arguing that societal labels for people don't affect alignment. Or from the view of somebody saying alignment is subjective, good and Good are not the same.

Let's put forward the common example. Ignoring Book of Exalted Deeds confusion, killing Evil Outsiders upon identification is a cosmically Good act and will add positive points to your alignment almost regardless of your reasoning (unless your motives were BoVD-worthy, but that's an entire 'nother can of works). And you can be the altruistic merciful champion of right guy like I mentioned but your alignment will ping the opposite if you, say, care to keep track of your friends' safety and life regularly (Deathwatch) or really use any other [Evil] tag spell. Plus, regardless of actual alignment change, having an alignment subtype and/or aura causes you to bing for that. The Succubus Paladin still shows up Chaotic Evil on a Detect Alignment.

Doing what is generally considered the right thing will *usually* steer you in the right direction towards Good, and doing things we generally consider bad will steer you towards Evil. But that's because this game was written by people, and people are not known for coping well with blue and orange morality.

And although I rejected it earlier in support of my Killing Evil Outsiders point (which is still generally Good, even with BoED, just not the most Good option) within the Book of Exalted Deeds itself it mentions that no matter how good the action might appear, if it's classified as an Evil act an Exalted character can't do it and keep his Exalted status, not because it hurts anything, but simply because you tip some cosmological balance towards Evil.

I know the example they used was Evil anyway, but that rule on Evil actions has always rubbed me the wrong way. But that's how it is. Avenger type characters would be considered some of the best people ever especially if they care for everyone along the way, and liberator types against Evil governments who give their everything to help the dejected peoples seem like the best good even if they do some assassination and stuff to fix things because, guess what, that's how the world works, and those innocent people will suffer and die if you don't do things the smart way.

These guys are good, but they're not Good. Their desire to help brings more Evil into the cosmos than Good. The right thing to do is to help the people in a way that works, but even just ignoring them is more Good. The avenger brings about justice to the unpunished, but because his reason isn't "stop more Evil" his actions are nongood.

[hamishspence]

Let's put forward the common example. Ignoring Book of Exalted Deeds confusion, killing Evil Outsiders upon identification is a cosmically Good act and will add positive points to your alignment almost regardless of your reasoning (unless your motives were BoVD-worthy, but that's an entire 'nother can of works). And you can be the altruistic merciful champion of right guy like I mentioned but your alignment will ping the opposite if you, say, care to keep track of your friends' safety and life regularly (Deathwatch) or really use any other [Evil] tag spell. Plus, regardless of actual alignment change, having an alignment subtype and/or aura causes you to bing for that. The Succubus Paladin still shows up Chaotic Evil on a Detect Alignment.A pretty good case can be made that the change to Deathwatch from 3.0 to 3.5 was a mistake - given that early 3.5 sources have it on Good class and PRC lists (the Healer from Miniatures Handbook, the Slayer of Domiel from BoED).

"Casting an evil spell" is one of the least evil Corrupt acts in Fiendish Codex 2- on a par with "humiliating an underling".

And Heroes of Horror makes a point of saying that Neutral people can sometimes balance Evil acts with Good intentions- and remain Neutral.


Murder is only evil because people saw murder and said "that thing there, its evil"

Just like evading taxes is evil (of some variation). Because goverment says that not paying taxes is baaaaad.

Hilariously, both of those actions are Chaotic rather than Evil in D&D. But you're right, societies will generally tell you they are "bad" actions.



BoVD says that "Cheating" is Evil (as is "Murder") but also defines Murder as "killing with nefarious motives".

This may be a somewhat loose definition of Murder though.

[Seto]

The other problem with this is that a character who is "all about twisting the rules" would most likely be neutral, or, more likely chaotic. A lawful characetr follows rules, though they may break rules that go against their personal code/morals/ethics. Neutral characters generally do whatever is in their best interests, which usually entails following the rules, because breaking them has punishment. Chaotic characters, on the other hand, most likely do not respect rules, and might take joy in taking advantage of them and twisting them to serve another purpose.

Twisting the rules is completely different from breaking the rules. Twisting is upholding the letter but ignoring the spirit, breaking is flat-out disagreeing or not caring. I agree that some LE types follow the rules without twisting them, but Devils do : "Read the fine print", "yeah but the article 2d-732 might hint at my interpretation, let's read it all over again, shall we ?" and all that. Demons, however, simply don't care enough about the rules to even pretend to respect them.
(Now, a character who, for some reason (physically compelled or otherwise), cannot break the rules but actively seeks to render them useless and void of their spirit by twisting them like crazy, now that one's probably chaotic indeed.)