View Full Version : Movies Frozen Tippyverse
A lot of people are familiar with the Tippyverse, a campaign setting described here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222007). To sum it up, magic is used in a way that makes sense, resulting in the "only logical outcome". (There has been lot of debate about this. That's not what this thread is about).
So what would happen if Elsa from Frozen used her powers to create a Tippyverse?
Anyway, the point is, the general idea of the Tippyverse can be applied to nearly any setting. After having watched Frozen four or five times, I began to wonder about the repercussions of Elsa's magic post-movie. Elsa can raise monsters meant for combat, create any shape out of ice, produce localized storm effects, lower the temperature of a given snowy area, induce an artificial winter over a large area, animate ice objects, and create ice skates. After the film is over, I imagine that she takes over the world from Arendelle by threatening winter. She could also potentially start drilling for minerals or oil by creating a localized storm effect (like Olaf's storm cloud), and then decreasing the temperature to a point where matter begins to break down. (she lowers the temperature at the end of the film when she escapes from the dungeon). I could also just be an idiot because I don't know enough about physics to make the above assumption.
I was just curious in what other ways folks think that Elsa could impose a Tippyverse status on Arendelle, or if they have any ideas for what other movies could yield such results.
erikun
2014-02-26, 09:53 PM
It might be better to ask "What would happen if some character with Elsa's powers existed?" rather than ask what Elsa would do. For example, Elsa is unlikely to start plunging kingdoms into winter as a threat unless provoked, based on what we know of her personality, but it is possible for a random character to do so.
We can certainly see animated creatures, but they wouldn't be terribly useful. The first big problem is that they require being in a frozen environment to be effective. Elsa can certainly preserve them outside that, but I would still question how effective Marshmallow (the big snow creature) is against full plate troops while walking through a river. Second, these animated creatures seem to have instincts and personalities of their own - both Olaf and Marshmallow had things they wanted to do outside of what Elsa wanted or commanded.
It's difficult to say if Elsa could create a "drone" creature in this manner. However, it's quite clear that her creations have no need for food (and possibly none for sleep). They might not be practical for manual labor, both needing the environment to be frozen and possibly not wanting to do so. They would probably be excellent for guarding areas of winter though, both being effectively indestructable and fully intelligent.
Moving Arendelle into the winterlands (or just freezing over Arendelle) is a very tempting option for defense. Elsa has shown that she can stop a crossbow bolt immediately with her power - quite a nice feat, especially as (some) crossbow bolts can penetrate plate. Pykrete (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pykrete) is an ice/sawdust mixture the strength of concrete; it would be incredibly strong building material, especially with Elsa's power behind it. The biggest concern is surviving in Arendelle. Note that this isn't a terribly large concern, though. Freezing the channel and destroying any aggressive ships that way is entirely possible, and we still have the snow creatures guarding the high mountains.
Threats against other kingdoms can come in two strong variants: Simply freezing the water supply/permafrost the ground, which we've seen can be kept up indefinitely even with her leaving, or outright glacier creation. Freezing the water supply is the more "passive" option, as it leaves the area intact, but requires the person to be on-site and possibly vulnerable to do so. Simply dumping enough power to create glaciers and literally bury opponents is the more "aggressive" option, probably destroying the local structures, but means that she may remain within the winterlands and protected by creatures.
Of course, the most obvious solution is to simply get more Elsas. We don't have a clue of where Elsa's power comes from or if her children can inherit it, but it is clear that Elsa can survive in an ice castle with (apparently) nothing to eat. And entire society of people with the same ability can simply survive on their own, independent from anyone else. They can create limitless snow creatures for companionship and nearly any task they need, and can simply crush any opposition through either a blizzard or literally freezing/snowing them out.
It's not very Trippyverse, as a lot of things that Trippyverse uses to improve society (infinite food, infinite healing, free transportation) are not available. But it would be easy to shut down most opposition with Elsa's power, if desired and willing to be cruel with it.
It might be better to ask "What would happen if some character with Elsa's powers existed?" rather than ask what Elsa would do.
That's true, I hadn't thought of that.
We can certainly see animated creatures, but they wouldn't be terribly useful. The first big problem is that they require being in a frozen environment to be effective.
She can just put stormclouds over them.
erikun
2014-02-26, 10:30 PM
She can just put stormclouds over them.
I mentioned that, specifically with the (still present) problem of the snow creature standing in water. Unless the snowcloud freezes the water (and we see that it doesn't) there's still the chance of melting. I'm not sure if the snow creatures are immune to melting in water for some reason or not, but outside confirmation, I will assume that it does.
I mentioned that, specifically with the (still present) problem of the snow creature standing in water. Unless the snowcloud freezes the water (and we see that it doesn't) there's still the chance of melting. I'm not sure if the snow creatures are immune to melting in water for some reason or not, but outside confirmation, I will assume that it does.
She can just lower the temperature beneath the storm cloud to a point where liquids will just freeze beneath the creature's feet. However, I did not address the semi-autonomy of the creatures you spoke of, so that could be an issue, unless very specific commands are provided (in the film, she just has it remove them, but does not specify how or to what extent).
Elsa never dealt with fire being a counter measure to her powers.
A Great Wyrm Red Dragon would destroy Arendale with as much ease as any other city guarded by a decently powerful weather mage.
Elsa's maybe equivalent to a level 12 DND character, and that's only because of her constructs and weather control being a decently high level spell.
Tippyverse's base ground soldiers would be immune to everything she could possibly do to them and just one of them would be capable of taking the city by itself, even with the guards and naval power allowed for the town.
Frozen in Tippyverse wouldn't survive for long before it became a part of the dystopian society.
If she were to try and create one it would be difficult at best and only maintained if there aren't any other "Elsa"'s out there who possess any measure of political power, or simply desire to stop "The Wicked Witch". Any power and safety obtained would be temporary.
Frozen is a story about familial love, not about who's strongest or even overcoming adversity through hard work. It's just not a setting built to be able to tippyverse.
As I understand it, Tippyverse requires several key factors to function as a general concept:
1) The ability to foresee and forestall all threats
2) The ability to teleport everything over vast distances effectively free of cost.
3) The ability to feed and produce goods for your populace at no cost
Elsa can't do any of these things. She can create an impressive, very cool (no pun intended) kingdom, but she has no defense against an assassin sneaking into her chambers at night and putting a knife through her eye, or someone poisoning her tea. In a kingdom where she had all the magic and advance warning, a pair of moderately skilled mundane assassins came within an inch of killing her, and a mis-shot quarrel knocked her unconscious. She can't project force effectively beyond her arm range, aside from generating vast storms, which means she could ruin areas but not control them. She also can't move people or goods around. She can create objects, but those objects are made of ice, and thus inherently limited in their usefulness to people who are not also ice-based, and she can't make food at all.
Elsa is awesome. She's not Tippyverse-level.
Jayngfet
2014-02-27, 02:19 AM
Elsa generally only looks impressive because she never had to encounter actual resistance.
The biggest monster she made still had a limb cut off in one hit by an unenchanted arming sword by someone who obviously just raided an unfamiliar and understocked armory a few hours beforehand. If one of them went up against cavalry with actual sabers it'd be reduced to a set of stumps within seconds. Likewise, Marshmallow was good for handling light Javelins and a couple of Hand Crossbows, but what about artillery? His body is obviously more yielding than flesh and works with some type of internal skeleton, so even pre-gunpowder weapon that's big enough would shatter him instantly. Something launching blunt force shots would due well, and those can be set up quickly and easily.
Lastly, Elsa's actual control varies minute to minute and she obviously couldn't build snowmen with any degree of control or accuracy. When she built the big one, she was visibly afraid of whatever was going to come out once she began the effect and kind of had to go with it. Just like she had no control over the fjord after she decided to walk across it. Or the weather. It's not something she can just call up like a wizard so much as a series of effects that she starts and can hopefully stop depending on her mood.
I mean hell, this is without factoring in other magic. We see in the movie that fire magic is a thing that exists in easily movable packages, worked by creatures that have seen multiple ice mages in the past and know what she can do better than she does. She'd basically be another Malefecent, only unlike the fairies the trolls already have a tough guy who can fight instead of needing to wait a decade and a half for one to show up.
comicshorse
2014-02-27, 03:29 PM
Elsa is awesome. She's not Tippyverse-level.
Yep. One of the high level mages looks at her and thinks 'Hey she might actually be a threat one day'. So he teleports in, invisible and reduces her to her component atoms
I did not really mean TV vs. Frozen, and I see that the TV was the incorrect descriptor for what I meant. Elsa has extremely powerful capabilities and I was curious as to the natural ramifications of those abilities apart from love an happiness.
nightwyrm
2014-02-27, 08:15 PM
I did not really mean TV vs. Frozen, and I see that the TV was the incorrect descriptor for what I meant. Elsa has extremely powerful capabilities and I was curious as to the natural ramifications of those abilities apart from love an happiness.
So you're basically interested in how the 18th century world would change if Norway suddenly had a Queen who's a frost mage in the mid-teen levels?
Jayngfet
2014-02-28, 12:19 AM
I did not really mean TV vs. Frozen, and I see that the TV was the incorrect descriptor for what I meant. Elsa has extremely powerful capabilities and I was curious as to the natural ramifications of those abilities apart from love an happiness.
We don't know. There's so much fluff that obviously exists in universe that we just aren't aware of and only have the barest hints to, and that's what the director and crew did by intent. The internal logic of Frozen is something we can glimpse and theorize, but never have an actual workable model on.
There are any number of things we glimpse on camera for a second or less, literally, that could totally change how the setting works and how things operate. Anything onscreen or last minute cuts could make a totally different set of scenarios depending on how it got to be in the spot it was when the camera fell on it.
This isn't like say, DND, where you get to read in depth about every faction and what they can do to certain limits. This is a story where even the people who's viewpoints you see don't have time to process what little of it they experience.
Anything any of us could guess would be contradicted by someone else being equally valid, simply because there's such a huge amount of room for interpretation.
Sith_Happens
2014-02-28, 12:58 AM
I did not really mean TV vs. Frozen, and I see that the TV was the incorrect descriptor for what I meant. Elsa has extremely powerful capabilities and I was curious as to the natural ramifications of those abilities apart from love an happiness.
So you're basically interested in how the 18th century world would change if Norway suddenly had a Queen who's a frost mage in the mid-teen levels?
Most likely, the ruler of every other country in the region hangs a "Don't piss off Arendelle" sign somewhere they'll see it often, then it's business as usual.
I guess Arendale would operate as if it had refrigeration a few centuries earlier, but that would just prove to keep Kristoff out of a job more than it would anything else.
Um, Ice cream is easily marketable? People live longer, more comfortable lives in cool conditions year round?
I mean we could do a lot with abilities like that today, but with tech and living conditions as they were back then they wouldn't even know to do any of these things.
Jayngfet
2014-02-28, 10:45 PM
I guess Arendale would operate as if it had refrigeration a few centuries earlier, but that would just prove to keep Kristoff out of a job more than it would anything else.
Um, Ice cream is easily marketable? People live longer, more comfortable lives in cool conditions year round?
I mean we could do a lot with abilities like that today, but with tech and living conditions as they were back then they wouldn't even know to do any of these things.
Not to mention the difficulty of getting them consistently.
I mean your primary method of government is monarchy, with what looks to be nobility as other officials with some religious influence that may or may not be purely ceremonial. The previous king was both the national leader, the leading scholar on the obviously important viking runes used everywhere as well as culture, and probably a whole bunch of other stuff.
Convincing her to ride to basically do menial labor a few hours a day would be hard.
I guess Arendale would operate as if it had refrigeration a few centuries earlier, but that would just prove to keep Kristoff out of a job more than it would anything else.
Actually, Kristoff is going to be as busy as hell. Arendale just became the region's foremost exporter of ice, and ice is valuable.
Elsa can both create ice, and create a power that keeps ice frozen longer. We don't know how much longer, but long enough that Olaf can go traipsing around in summer all day.
Load up a boat, magic up a snowcloud, and you can export ice to every neighbouring nation. And there's clearly a market for ice across the region, because there was an entire group of ice-cutters (they, incidentally, are out of a job, but I'm sure Elsa can find something for them to do).
A massive increase in ice availability does great things for the local cuisine, because suddenly people can freeze food year-round, not just in the winter. Air conditioning is probably not a big deal, since it's a northern climate, but food supplies just got a huge leg up. The navy can be scaled back a bit, since winter storms can safely prevent invasion (and probably the navy should be scaled back if you don't want to panic your neighbours; a powerful local commercial empire that can defend itself is a lot less terrifying than a powerful local commercial empire that can defend itself and also attack you).
If Elsa can control all ice as easily as her own, she can also eliminate major winter storms and particularly brutal cold snaps, keeping the kingdom comfortably cold in winter and cutting down significantly on firewood costs, and greatly improving the standard of living for the poor. The rich won't be affected by this so much, which means greater equality, which is always good for the general well-being of a place. She can create temporary architecture easily, which is great for resource exploitation, but not so much permanent architecture, which means she's not driving the local masons out of business.
nightwyrm
2014-03-01, 01:41 AM
Actually, Kristoff is going to be as busy as hell. Arendale just became the region's foremost exporter of ice, and ice is valuable.
Elsa can both create ice, and create a power that keeps ice frozen longer. We don't know how much longer, but long enough that Olaf can go traipsing around in summer all day.
Load up a boat, magic up a snowcloud, and you can export ice to every neighbouring nation. And there's clearly a market for ice across the region, because there was an entire group of ice-cutters (they, incidentally, are out of a job, but I'm sure Elsa can find something for them to do).
All the ice cutters are now going to become ice deliverers. Elsa sure as hell isn't gonna go running around personally making ice for everybody. She's a queen and got queenly stuff to do. The most efficient thing would be for her to take five minutes every morning to create a giant block of ice in the courtyard and let the people cut it up and transport it while she get on with her day. Basically, the ice business is now an Arendelle state monopoly.
More large scale geopolitical stuff is gonna depend exactly on how far away Elsa can exert her powers. Is she going to have to be within visual distance to create a blizzard or can she rely on the natural (or un-natural) movement of global weather systems to deliver a blizzard to another country while she sits in Arendelle.
Non-aggression pacts and mutual defense pacts with Arendelle suddenly shoots up to the top of every other country's to do list.
Jayngfet
2014-03-01, 03:29 AM
Non-aggression pacts and mutual defense pacts with Arendelle suddenly shoots up to the top of every other country's to do list.
...assuming, of course, that they can't come up with a reasonable or reliable counter to one squishy and emotionally unstable target. Fire magic is a thing that blatantly exists in Frozen. It exists in a form that's easily packaged and moved around. We have no idea what it does, but the fact that it exists alone is a game changer that's not being taken into account.
If Elsa were to get out of hand again, you'd just need to find a troll colony, file a fire crystal to a point, then have some dude dressed as a butler shank the queen until she stops moving. Or find some other mage and use them as a kind of nuclear deterrent. Or else just get a big enough piece of artillery to blast through anything she can make. We don't have a bead on tech level, magic level, or frequency of certain items so any or none of these could happen at any moment.
Elsa managed to cause fear and panic among a bunch of unprepared nobles and people who weren't expecting this sort of thing. If it becomes an outright act of war when people know what she can do beforehand, the scenario can't be considered comparable.
JustSomeGuy
2014-03-01, 05:03 PM
Marshmallow monster could just flop into full-plate in a river group and drown them all under his weight.
Ice powers ruler (not elsa) could easily create impregnable castle (not doors, no stairways single room on a 200ft ice shaft) to sleep in, and it seems she doesn't need to eat or drink so no poison. If she can make clothes, she can make armour. If she can make ice and wind, she can make projectiles. She could pro ably drop a ton block of ice on someone pretty easily given how quick she makes other quantities of ice.
Snow monster army, if anything like olaf, can take anything and just stick themselves back together after if needed. Why stop at snow monsters, why not ice or wind or combinations, of seems plausibly within her powers. Also, she wanted a friend and got olaf, wanted a guard and got marshmallow... With practice, she could get exactly the traits and mentality desired from each creature, even if it is just 'swirl/roll/stomp around my tower all night while I sleep, kill anyone who comes within sight' or whatever.
Can she control the water within a human body, or the air in their lungs? Both proven powers, both open up whole new realms of possibility.
Jayngfet
2014-03-01, 05:04 PM
Marshmallow monster could just flop into full-plate in a river group and drown them all under his weight.
Ice powers ruler (not elsa) could easily create impregnable castle (not doors, no stairways single room on a 200ft ice shaft) to sleep in, and it seems she doesn't need to eat or drink so no poison. If she can make clothes, she can make armour. If she can make ice and wind, she can make projectiles. She could pro ably drop a ton block of ice on someone pretty easily given how quick she makes other quantities of ice.
Snow monster army, if anything like olaf, can take anything and just stick themselves back together after if needed. Why stop at snow monsters, why not ice or wind or combinations, of seems plausibly within her powers. Also, she wanted a friend and got olaf, wanted a guard and got marshmallow... With practice, she could get exactly the traits and mentality desired from each creature, even if it is just 'swirl/roll/stomp around my tower all night while I sleep, kill anyone who comes within sight' or whatever.
Can she control the water within a human body, or the air in their lungs? Both proven powers, both open up whole new realms of possibility.
Where are you getting that she doesn't need to eat or drink?
Also, it's important to note that her ice is still ice. A pistol sized crossbow managed to almost pierce through several feet of it. Larger artillery would shatter any wall she could conceivably make.
Where are you getting that she doesn't need to eat or drink?
Also, it's important to note that her ice is still ice. A pistol sized crossbow managed to almost pierce through several feet of it. Larger artillery would shatter any wall she could conceivably make.
A lot of people think that since she was in that castle without food, it shows that shed does not have to eat. I don't think that's the case (ice cream or something) but some do. I don't remember the fire crystal, if you clarify that it'd be great. Also, a crossbow bolt pierced a VERY thin sheet of glass. Really, she ought to be inside of a massive super-dense cube at all times and just mover herself around in that.
Jayngfet
2014-03-01, 10:14 PM
A lot of people think that since she was in that castle without food, it shows that shed does not have to eat. I don't think that's the case (ice cream or something) but some do. I don't remember the fire crystal, if you clarify that it'd be great. Also, a crossbow bolt pierced a VERY thin sheet of glass. Really, she ought to be inside of a massive super-dense cube at all times and just mover herself around in that.
The trolls are decked out in power crystals. One of them holds a hunk up to the camera and says it's a fire crystal specifically. Given that they have some as big as a mans arm and there's no shortage, they could potentially screw over Elsa pretty hard if they were convinced she was more trouble than she was worth.
Also, the super-dense cube is probably a joke but it explains exactly how friggin ridiculous the concept of the tippyverse is and why it just plain makes for bad storytelling.
JustSomeGuy
2014-03-02, 05:01 AM
Yes the trolls could kill her, but she can also kill the trolls... Freeze-thaw cycle and rock, anyone? Let alone outright dropping a glacier on them or ice-statueing them. Of course, their magic is pro ably more powerful still, but they're not invincible
Edit: since Anna survived being frozen, it seems plausible elsa could too. If so, she could freeze herself and shatter into ice dust, then create some wind and she's got a pseudo ethreal invulnerability/fast travel mode. It's pushing what we know she can do, but fits within the realms of possibility
Yes the trolls could kill her, but she can also kill the trolls... Freeze-thaw cycle and rock, anyone? Let alone outright dropping a glacier on them or ice-statueing them. Of course, their magic is pro ably more powerful still, but they're not invincible
Edit: since Anna survived being frozen, it seems plausible elsa could too. If so, she could freeze herself and shatter into ice dust, then create some wind and she's got a pseudo ethreal invulnerability/fast travel mode. It's pushing what we know she can do, but fits within the realms of possibility
There's no proof that she could survive being shattered or reform, or control herself while she was dust.
That's just ridiculous speculation attempting to give her powers she doesn't have, Anna sure as hell wasn't able to do anything while Frozen.
JustSomeGuy
2014-03-02, 11:35 AM
There's no proof that she could survive being shattered or reform, or control herself while she was dust.
That's just ridiculous speculation attempting to give her powers she doesn't have, Anna sure as hell wasn't able to do anything while Frozen.
Anna also couldn't magic up some weather, elsa could. Hypothetical ice ruler (one who hasn't only just started using their powers, but has done so for years) would be much further along of reaching the limits of their powers beyond the obvious stuff, and both surviving freezing and controlling the weather are shown powers... combining the two isn't that far fetched
Surviving breaking the body up isn't quite so clear-cut, but both her creations can do it easily.
Anna also couldn't magic up some weather, elsa could. Hypothetical ice ruler (one who hasn't only just started using their powers, but has done so for years) would be much further along of reaching the limits of their powers beyond the obvious stuff, and both surviving freezing and controlling the weather are shown powers... combining the two isn't that far fetched
Surviving breaking the body up isn't quite so clear-cut, but both her creations can do it easily.
You have no proof that any of that is remotely possible, and saying that because her creations could survive it and thus she could is like saying because a Wizard's golem can be put back together he can survive decapitation.
Frozen_Feet
2014-03-02, 01:44 PM
So what would happen if Elsa from Frozen used her powers to create a Tippyverse?
I have not seen Frozen, but nothing in your description gives me the slightest impression of this Elsa having any sort or form of massive-scale teleportation abilities.
TippyVerse requires massive scale teleportation.
Elsa does not have them.
Hence, she can't create a TippyVerse.
Now, if you rather ask "what would happen if her powers were taken to their logical conclusion?", I will have to say "nothing much".
Through bringing winter and snow to places where infrastructure is not made to handle that (such as London), she could wreak havoc to economics and general life. So in that way, she possesses a sort of weapon deterrent over other nations. This might help her retain sovereignty, and also pre-empt potential invasions.
However, winter and snow-beasties are still not terribly impressive as armies go. They are not very good for occupying ground, unless your only interest is owning a lot of frozen wasteland.
As far as materials go, snow and ice are not terribly impressive. I suppose she could easily create vast snow-castles for people of her nation to live, but upkeeping those would require constant winter, which would make food production impossible. So unless the only thing she wants to live there is her snow-beasties, it's a loosing prospect.
All personal-scale applications of ice pretty much lose to any such items made of metals.
You are correct in that she could use her powers to cease great supplies of natural resources around the Northern or Southern polar circles (but not both, due to lack of rapid travel and distances involved), cementing a position as a potential world power. This would not be terribly different from any other nations using a conventional navy or army to cease such resources, and would hence not lead to particularly revolutionary sociopolitical changes. In direct contest of strenght, weather control might prove superior, but only if she can command truly vast areas in multiple places at once.
Permanent winter storms are not very useful for getting said resources out of the soil (etc.), however. It would take constant, storm-level winds to rapidly erode permafrost soil, and it would just end up scattering the (frozen) goods around. It would be more useful to melt permafrost areas around useful lumps of resources, while using ice paths as highways. Basically, the current problems with extracting f.ex. oil from Syberia are in a Morton's Fork: one one hand, permafrost keeps the ground hard, which allows heavy machinery to move over land, but on the other the climate is so hostile and the ground so hard as to make it very expensive. If permafrost and glaciers were to melt, it would allow extraction of more resources and more easily, but it would make getting to those resources and transporting them out impossible.
If Elsa can locally melt permafrost and glaciers while keeping existing icepaths solid and safe for travel, that's a winning business right there. If not... back to be queen of frozen wastelands.
urkthegurk
2014-03-02, 02:23 PM
Well, if we're MIXING DnD and Frozen, she'd have access to that classic cold-themed spell, Ice Assasin. Suddenly, a lot of her 'not powerful enough for the Tippyverse' problems go away! Sure, there may be mages out there who can kill her, but she can at least compete, and since she's mostly selling ice (an actually economic stimulator, of which there are almost none in the tippyverse), and she rules a relatively minor region, they might not risk taking her on. Or you know, they might. Or they might make her a protectorate, and use her blanket-level powers to hold sway over all of the 'dystopian' regions-- the areas between cities.
If we're going with the OP, then we basically have to make a setting. Which is fine, and I think she'll probably do very well, and turn out to be one of the more powerful casters in the world (along the lines of adventure time's Ice King)
The trolls are decked out in power crystals. One of them holds a hunk up to the camera and says it's a fire crystal specifically. Given that they have some as big as a mans arm and there's no shortage, they could potentially screw over Elsa pretty hard if they were convinced she was more trouble than she was worth.
Do the fire crystals speciofically negate Elsa's powers?
Also, the super-dense cube is probably a joke but it explains exactly how friggin ridiculous the concept of the tippyverse is and why it just plain makes for bad storytelling.
Clearly I'm not trying to maintain the story of Frozen at this point. This whole idea is kind of a joke. Also, since a lot of people have pointed out that this is not really parallel to the TV, it's probably better not to criticize based on any stupid thing I may have said.
I have not seen Frozen
See it! it's actually pretty good.
but nothing in your description gives me the slightest impression of this Elsa having any sort or form of massive-scale teleportation abilities.
TippyVerse requires massive scale teleportation.
Elsa does not have them.
Hence, she can't create a TippyVerse.
Correct, my bad.
Now, if you rather ask "what would happen if her powers were taken to their logical conclusion?", I will have to say "nothing much".
Really? what you say right after this seems to differ...
Through bringing winter and snow to places where infrastructure is not made to handle that (such as London), she could wreak havoc to economics and general life. So in that way, she possesses a sort of weapon deterrent over other nations. This might help her retain sovereignty, and also pre-empt potential invasions.
That's pretty big.
However, winter and snow-beasties are still not terribly impressive as armies go. They are not very good for occupying ground, unless your only interest is owning a lot of frozen wasteland.
...Except that Elsa can create localized storm effects that allow the ice creatures to survive at any temperature.
As far as materials go, snow and ice are not terribly impressive. I suppose she could easily create vast snow-castles for people of her nation to live, but upkeeping those would require constant winter, which would make food production impossible. So unless the only thing she wants to live there is her snow-beasties, it's a loosing prospect.
Actually, everything is not built out of ice. Probably just some very dense walls. This is because of what erikun mentioned:
Pykrete is an ice/sawdust mixture the strength of concrete; it would be incredibly strong building material, especially with Elsa's power behind it.
All personal-scale applications of ice pretty much lose to any such items made of metals.
She can mine for materials by digging out the landscape either through telekinetic control of super-dense ice or having manual ice creature laborers do it for her. NOt really that hard. By bargaining with the Trolls she could presumably use fire crystals to not only maintain heat in the city but forge metal objects. Considering the trolls regard as an ally, this is conceivable.
You are correct in that she could use her powers to cease great supplies of natural resources around the Northern or Southern polar circles (but not both, due to lack of rapid travel and distances involved)
Yes both, she can telekinetically control ice.
cementing a position as a potential world power. This would not be terribly different from any other nations using a conventional navy or army to cease such resources, and would hence not lead to particularly revolutionary sociopolitical changes. In direct contest of strenght, weather control might prove superior, but only if she can command truly vast areas in multiple places at once.
She can affect HUGE areas. Like, miles and miles and miles.
Permanent winter storms are not very useful for getting said resources out of the soil (etc.), however. It would take constant, storm-level winds to rapidly erode permafrost soil, and it would just end up scattering the (frozen) goods around. It would be more useful to melt permafrost areas around useful lumps of resources, while using ice paths as highways. Basically, the current problems with extracting f.ex. oil from Syberia are in a Morton's Fork: one one hand, permafrost keeps the ground hard, which allows heavy machinery to move over land, but on the other the climate is so hostile and the ground so hard as to make it very expensive. If permafrost and glaciers were to melt, it would allow extraction of more resources and more easily, but it would make getting to those resources and transporting them out impossible.
she can just make levitating ice structures to carry things around, and ice creature laborers could do the work for her.
If Elsa can locally melt permafrost and glaciers while keeping existing icepaths solid and safe for travel, that's a winning business right there. If not... back to be queen of frozen wastelands.
Fire Crystals can do it.
This whole discussion is kinda dumb.
SiuiS
2014-03-02, 03:53 PM
Your short hand description of the tippyverse does not, in fact, describe a tippyverse at all.
Anyway! There would be no Tippyverse. The point of the TV is that wizards need paranoia, cunning, efficiency, alpha personalities and intelligence 26+ to get anywhere – none of which is present, desirable or worthwhile in frozen. The building blocks just aren't there.
Frozen_Feet
2014-03-02, 03:58 PM
Yes both, she can telekinetically control ice.
Any sort of proof her telekinesis can reach across the globe and her weather-control power can extend to cover two continental masses at once?
Because I highly doubt it.
"Miles and miles and miles" is not enough even in the scale of a single nation, for a single unit to serve as an occupying presence. Causing storms to wreck things is one thing, holding area is another. I'm rather skeptical of her powers approaching overall destructive power of even high-end conventional weapons, such as fuel-to-air bombs and artillery bombardment.
Elsa's best option to improve the prosperity of Arendelle is to ally with Hans (who is honestly not that bad of a guy) kick off an industrial revolution. By establishing an eternal winter over the North Mountain, the heat differential between the relatively warm Southern Isles and the artificially cold Arendelle can be exploited to increase wind speeds in Arendelle, significantly improving the usefulness of windmills. Runoff from the North Mountain's magically created snow will create several rivers running toward the south, allowing both for increased irrigation of the Arendelle and watermills of various types. Initially this will result in an increased crop yield, but ideally this will be leveraged into a variety of powered looms, pottery workshops and other mechanized but environmentally friendly industries.
Jayngfet
2014-03-02, 05:30 PM
Elsa's best option to improve the prosperity of Arendelle is to ally with Hans (who is honestly not that bad of a guy) kick off an industrial revolution.
He tried to decapitate her and admitted that this was always his plan.
He is that bad of a guy.
Any sort of proof her telekinesis can reach across the globe and her weather-control power can extend to cover two continental masses at once?
Because I highly doubt it.
Yeah, there is. See the movie. Her telekinetic ability i not prescribed a specific range, but I was assuming that she would be present.
"Miles and miles and miles" is not enough even in the scale of a single nation, for a single unit to serve as an occupying presence. Causing storms to wreck things is one thing, holding area is another. I'm rather skeptical of her powers approaching overall destructive power of even high-end conventional weapons, such as fuel-to-air bombs and artillery bombardment.
By a huge area I did mean the entirety of a country. Also, are you aware that this takes place in a medieval sort of time? No one has fuel-to-air bombs, and no one will for a while.
Your short hand description of the tippyverse does not, in fact, describe a tippyverse at all.
Anyway! There would be no Tippyverse. The point of the TV is that wizards need paranoia, cunning, efficiency, alpha personalities and intelligence 26+ to get anywhere – none of which is present, desirable or worthwhile in frozen. The building blocks just aren't there.
I already addressed this- the TV was a faulty description for what I had in mind.
I'm Kinda sorry I brought up this idea in general, people seem to just find it really stupid, and I'm sorry about that, I just thought it was kind of funny, considering how strong her powers could potentially be.
He tried to decapitate her and admitted that this was always his plan.
He is that bad of a guy.
I agree with this, but she could ally with one of his twelve or so brothers.
Yeah, there is. See the movie. Her telekinetic ability i not prescribed a specific range, but I was assuming that she would be present.
By a huge area I did mean the entirety of a country. Also, are you aware that this takes place in a medieval sort of time? No one has fuel-to-air bombs, and no one will for a while.
I already addressed this- the TV was a faulty description for what I had in mind.
I'm Kinda sorry I brought up this idea in general, people seem to just find it really stupid, and I'm sorry about that, I just thought it was kind of funny, considering how strong her powers could potentially be.
Arendale was a small city state more than a nation.
It was quite clear that anything beyond the mountains hadn't been effected otherwise other city states would've done something and we would've seen a stronger military presence, or at least a scene of them hitting the icy docks.
We saw her absorb all the ice at the end anyways, it was more "1 city + surrounding counties" than it was a nation.
To claim it was, is kinda silly.
Jayngfet
2014-03-02, 07:40 PM
Arendale was a small city state more than a nation.
Of course, we have no idea exactly how big Arendelle is or how densley populated.
I mean we see the shot before Let It Go and she managed to cross a rather lengthy mountain range, but somehow only in a few hours without ruffling her clothes.
Frozen is essentially a stage show as much as it is a film in that way. Characters don't need to worry about the logistics of things so much as they can just happen and be timed well enough.
Of course, we have no idea exactly how big Arendelle is or how densley populated.
I mean we see the shot before Let It Go and she managed to cross a rather lengthy mountain range, but somehow only in a few hours without ruffling her clothes.
Frozen is essentially a stage show as much as it is a film in that way. Characters don't need to worry about the logistics of things so much as they can just happen and be timed well enough.
We did see Arendale though, and saw that it was essentially a port city at the foot of a mountain range. Which gives her pretty decent range, but.. still not a whole lot when it comes to things on a national scale. Even 1800 nation size standards.
I mean from the shot we got at the end with the giant sky snowflake it wasn't even much more than a castle surrounded by a VERY small town.
It's even arguable if the snow on the mountain range was even elsa at all, and it's clear that even at the end she doesn't have ultra fine control at anything more than eyesight distances.
He tried to decapitate her and admitted that this was always his plan.
He is that bad of a guy.
Hans wanted to marry a woman for political reasons. That's not a crime. Likewise, him ordering Elsa to be beheaded for treason was totally legitimate: at this point she had plunged the kingdom into Eternal Winter, "accidentally" cursed her sister with a mortal wound, and abdicated the throne to build an ice palace of doom atop a mountain. If the story were told from the other viewpoint, it would tell the story of Noble Prince Hans attempting to save the kingdom from the Wicked Ice Queen only to be defeated by a sudden plot twist.
There is really not enough evidence to assume anything, so I think we should just stop arguing about this, my bad for bringing it up.
Frozen is essentially a stage show as much as it is a film in that way. Characters don't need to worry about the logistics of things so much as they can just happen and be timed well enough.
Yes but isn't it 1 of the basic assumptions of TV logic, that everything that happens must be explained via RAW, rather than plot convenience?
So the fact that Elsa managed to go from the city to a distant mountain peak in less than the time it took her sister to decide to mount a horse and go after her? She has some sort of icy fast-travel power. Maybe she was riding atop a giant flying snowflake.
Also Elsa doesn't just have weather control; she has spontaneous weather generation/negation that doesn't depend on logical weather patterns. For example, she can will deep winter out of existence without waiting for the snow to naturally melt and run off. On the other end of the logical spectrum, she can roll over your entire province with a flash glacier in the middle of a summer day, without any weather warning beforehand such as stormclouds on the horizon or whatever.
Storywise, I am of the camp that the story would have been even better if Hans was actually a decent and good person, and all his intentions were good and altruistic, but that his philosophy veers more towards "ends justify means". The face-heel turn twist was completely unnecessary for the plot.
Jayngfet
2014-03-02, 11:52 PM
Yes but isn't it 1 of the basic assumptions of TV logic, that everything that happens must be explained via RAW, rather than plot convenience?
Can you cite that?
Because really, at the end of the day Frozen rests on plot convenience for better or worse.
How do Kristoff and Anna wind up at the same place at the same time despite having different paces and sets of information? Plot. The characters need to meet up, so they do.
How does Elsa manage to cross dozens of mountains with no training and not so much as getting a tiny rip on her lengthy dress or cloak? Plot. The shot of those mountains was great and justifies it.
How does Hans manage to track down Elsa despite not knowing where she is and not understanding magic as well as Kristoff would? Plot. He needed to get there and back in under a day despite it logically being a two week trip.
You kinda need to just go with it.
Can you cite that?
Cite what? Tippyverse is some official genre now?
Because really, at the end of the day Frozen rests on plot convenience for better or worse.
All the other example can be explained at least by fortuitous chance (Kris and Anna finding each other in a blizzard) or offscreen help (Hans logistically would have the help of numerous experienced trackers/ mountaineers/ huntsmen).
Elsa, a sheltered princess, dressed in a formal gown, crossing the snowy wastes and up a ice-capped mountain unscathed just cannot happen except by magic. She could not have just walked up there, immunity to cold or not. There had to be some sort of fast-travel magic.
Jayngfet
2014-03-03, 01:04 AM
Cite what? Tippyverse is some official genre now?
All the other example can be explained at least by fortuitous chance (Kris and Anna finding each other in a blizzard) or offscreen help (Hans logistically would have the help of numerous experienced trackers/ mountaineers/ huntsmen).
Elsa, a sheltered princess, dressed in a formal gown, crossing the snowy wastes and up a ice-capped mountain unscathed just cannot happen except by magic. She could not have just walked up there, immunity to cold or not. There had to be some sort of fast-travel magic.
Elsa making a beeline with magic is one thing.
But the sheer distance makes the travel by horses impossible in ideal conditions, let alone with a snowstorm going on.
I mean for gods sake, trackers or no you try finding a person after two feet of snow has fallen and a day has passed. Through fifty or sixty miles of mountains. With no hounds or tracking equipment. In less than twelve hours. Without any of your horses being injured. And you have to find the exact right spot the first time among the entire mountain range.
It literally can't be done.
Yes but isn't it 1 of the basic assumptions of TV logic, that everything that happens must be explained via RAW, rather than plot convenience?
So the fact that Elsa managed to go from the city to a distant mountain peak in less than the time it took her sister to decide to mount a horse and go after her? She has some sort of icy fast-travel power. Maybe she was riding atop a giant flying snowflake.
Also Elsa doesn't just have weather control; she has spontaneous weather generation/negation that doesn't depend on logical weather patterns. For example, she can will deep winter out of existence without waiting for the snow to naturally melt and run off. On the other end of the logical spectrum, she can roll over your entire province with a flash glacier in the middle of a summer day, without any weather warning beforehand such as stormclouds on the horizon or whatever.
Storywise, I am of the camp that the story would have been even better if Hans was actually a decent and good person, and all his intentions were good and altruistic, but that his philosophy veers more towards "ends justify means". The face-heel turn twist was completely unnecessary for the plot.
Actually, to be entirely accurate.
Lana searched that entire section of the mountain range, and it wasn't until they found Olaf that they knew exactly where to go. Plus, they weren't mounted even half the time. Going through multiple mountain passes and having Lana stop at a mountain supply store decidedly farther away than even Arendale was.
So it's more of an assumption that Lana wasted a lot of time, than Elsa can go fast.
Elsa just walked in a straight line.
Frozen_Feet
2014-03-03, 06:18 AM
Yeah, there is. See the movie. Her telekinetic ability i not prescribed a specific range, but I was assuming that she would be present.
Smacks of no-limits fallacy. You see her affect an area comparable to a small nation at best, and decide she could just as easily hold areas hundreds of times larger and separated by thousands of kilometers.
By your logic, any telekinetic character with no stated limits for their power can control all solids, anywhere.
I do not consider that a reasonable ground for discussion.
Also, are you aware that this takes place in a medieval sort of time? No one has fuel-to-air bombs, and no one will for a while.
You vastly over-estimate technological requirements for simple fuel-to-air bombs. They can be implemented with flour, black-powder and spirits, and weak ones were used in the times of catapults.
Based on what other posters in this thread have said on the movie, it's not "medieval", it's early modern at least. Mass-scale firearms combat and artillery with range measurable in kilometers should already be in existence. Advanced endothermic explosives, tanks and aeroplanes are one or two centuries away at most.
Smacks of no-limits fallacy. You see her affect an area comparable to a small nation at best, and decide she could just as easily hold areas hundreds of times larger and separated by thousands of kilometers.
Once she induces winter, she does not have to exert energy to maintain it. It is simply conjured. What I mean is if she conjures a winter in one area, she could do it again, next to that area. And then next to that area. To keep a 'winter state' over an area does not require her to concentrate, nor does it require that she 'hold' anything. It is as if it were a spell with a duration of instantaneous.
You vastly over-estimate technological requirements for simple fuel-to-air bombs. They can be implemented with flour, black-powder and spirits, and weak ones were used in the times of catapults.
wikipedia says fuel-to air bombs were created by Soviets originally, but I see your point. I don't think it would be of much import, however, as she could just make a wall of superdense ice nearly instantly in order to deflect projectiles, as seen in the film (crossbow bolt, for reference).
Based on what other posters in this thread have said on the movie, it's not "medieval", it's early modern at least. Mass-scale firearms combat and artillery with range measurable in kilometers should already be in existence. Advanced endothermic explosives, tanks and aeroplanes are one or two centuries away at most.
Then your interpreting what other posters have said wrong. No firearms. They use swords and crossbows, both of which she is capable of protecting herself from.
Jayngfet
2014-03-03, 11:30 PM
wikipedia says fuel-to air bombs were created by Soviets originally, but I see your point. I don't think it would be of much import, however, as she could just make a wall of superdense ice nearly instantly in order to deflect projectiles, as seen in the film (crossbow bolt, for reference).
Yeah, but the crossbows were incredibly light and fired individually. They weren't actual weapons of war.
Actual heavier crossbows, or worse flintlocks or wheel locks, would utterly destroy that level of ice. A firing line would obviously be beyond what she can block instantly and god help her if there's a cavalry unit or artillery piece she didn't factor in.
Yeah, but the crossbows were incredibly light and fired individually. They weren't actual weapons of war.
Actual heavier crossbows, or worse flintlocks or wheel locks, would utterly destroy that level of ice. A firing line would obviously be beyond what she can block instantly and god help her if there's a cavalry unit or artillery piece she didn't factor in.
That's why I suggested a particularly dense wall of ice. Presumably dense enough to negate the impact of oncoming projectiles. She ought to just always be surrounded in a large cube of extremely dense ice that cannot be penetrated. She could move around in that.
Jayngfet
2014-03-04, 12:09 AM
That's why I suggested a particularly dense wall of ice. Presumably dense enough to negate the impact of oncoming projectiles. She ought to just always be surrounded in a large cube of extremely dense ice that cannot be penetrated. She could move around in that.
...which makes a number of asinine assumptions about battlefield conditions and the way things will be planned.
...which makes a number of asinine assumptions about battlefield conditions and the way things will be planned.
Wait, really? Like what? I would think that it's make sense for an ice-wizard to hide in an impenetrable cube that could be telekinetically moved around while mobilizing large ice creatures that were protected by personalized clouds under which inhospitable temperatures existed.
In all seriousness though, I'd appreciate clarification, as you're being kind of rude.
Jayngfet
2014-03-04, 12:53 AM
Wait, really? Like what? I would think that it's make sense for an ice-wizard to hide in an impenetrable cube that could be telekinetically moved around while mobilizing large ice creatures that were protected by personalized clouds under which inhospitable temperatures existed.
In all seriousness though, I'd appreciate clarification, as you're being kind of rude.
Well for one thing, you're assuming that by moving around in a theoretically perfect and impenetrable cube, Elsa's skin can somehow survive being totally unable to come into contact with Oxygen. Or that she can even breathe in such a situation. Or that because she can make an ice dress, suddenly 90% of human biological functions no longer apply, evidence be damned.
Or that we know her actual area of effect and level of control. Arenedelle's actual statistics are vague to say the least and rely on plot convenience and caricature to be sold, as basically every animated city does. She could freeze the world in thirty seconds or be unable to actually control that kind of effect at all with much more limited results. We don't know and any guesses are hearsay that should be treated as such.
Or, say, that Elsa can actually control her ice creatures. As an actual animator who's picked apart half these scenes, even when doing something big consciously, Elsa doesn't actually have a huge amount of control over what comes out. Once she starts making a monster, she shrinks back and is basically just as terrified as everyone else as to what is going to emerge. A monster that has no non-crystaline bones and loses a limb at a single stroke from a weapon the wielder doesn't even own and obviously has little practice with(given the props context, it's a reasonable bet it's a mostly ceremonial or outdated piece he fished out along with his officers uniform). Elsa's ability to direct or control anything she summons is basically zero and should be treated as such.
Or, for that matter, that she can dictate the terms of engagement at any, or even most conflicts. We see rather neatly the kind of ice she can put up as an instant defense and it barely stops a single bolt from a hand crossbow. If a much weightier one, or two, were aimed with that kind of accuracy from the same distance they'd shatter her shields and draw blood if not knock her off balance or unconscious at minimum. If you have more than two people with actual guns and cavalry and sabers, it becomes a contest of a group of actually trained fighters against one person with little to no control over their support.
It only takes one person to end a life and Elsa would need to be one person against hundreds, any of whom need to get lucky once. One canon on a hill she didn't see loading(easy if she's throwing out ice storms blocking visions like you suggest) and she's dead. One cavalryman with a pistol or saber getting even reasonably close, and she could die before she can get a reaction. One line of fire stronger than expected and she's dead. One troll decides arrowheads made of fire crystals are a good idea, she's dead. A random group of gurellas attacks her on the way to a siege or battle, she's dead.
You can avoid stuff like that in DND since you can just tank a spear to the gut every time even as a mid level wizard. You can't do that when the dice aren't as play and with no modern medicine even a minor cut can lead to a slow, painful death. Elsa and her sister aren't player characters who can fight out any situation they find themselves in. They don't have people reading metabooks that describe every single situation and ideal geometry and know the exact details of every effect that can be done at any time in theoretical situations. They're people, who have an obviously limited idea of what can be done with power like this and aren't in a hurry to try to find out.
What was the argument again? Oh right, "Elsa (or Elsa Analog) is not a one-woman army." I would tend to think that she is, as long as she's smart about it.
No matter how strong your ice powers, it would be monumentally stupid to put yourself in a situation where you're out in the open with zero preparation, with an enemy army fully prepared, their projectile and artillery weapons pointed straight at you. It is doubly monumentally stupid considering that you're the monarch of a nation and therefore have resources both mundane and supernatural to prevent the above situation.
But then we have Jayngfet say "Okay, this is ***tty situation you are in, but you have ice powers. Let's see you get out of this one LOL. 3, 2, 1, go." And this is supposed to show that this Elsa is useless. It merely shows that this Elsa is braindead.
In an actual war with an Elsa at the command of her own army, first of all her army would consist of both humans (technological peers of her enemies) and magical ice creatures (controlled by her as well as human handlers). The ice creatures may be sentient, but they're obviously friendly to their creator (as seen in the movie) and with prep can be directed by human handlers. Think trained war elephants etc. Secondly, she has complete control over the weather, which is always a deciding factor in war, especially pre-industrial war. She can just come out of her command tent on the night before the battle, conjure one localized polar vortex over the hill, and her army has already won the battle without firing a shot.
In this pre-Industrial Frozen-TV world, the only possible equalizers are (1) a braindead snow queen as Jayngfet proposed, or (2) other supernatural powers able to match her in their own way.
Jayngfet
2014-03-04, 03:20 AM
What was the argument again? Oh right, "Elsa (or Elsa Analog) is not a one-woman army." I would tend to think that she is, as long as she's smart about it.
She's essentially a nineteenth century european monarch. The idea that she'd be trained and competent in battles taking place on the ground stretches the imagination to a rather large degree. She was not trained for such events and she has no experience. Arendelle has also not gone to war in at least one generation and keeps such a limited cache of weapons that it's royal guards can't afford to carry anything more than old arming swords. Even if you don't take unused storyboards with actual period weapons as canon, Wessleton's men were the only ones who thought to even bring actual ranged weapons beyond throwing simple spears.
Given that Rapunzel is in the film, and we see Corona's men are armed with much more effectivley designed Sabers, it's not an unreasonable assumption that not only do better weapons exist, but larger countries do employ them regularly. Likewise, Anna's horse throws her off and retreats at a moments notice, but both Corona and the Southern Isles use horses not only much more competent, but smarter than even Sven. For a third whammy, deleted scenes show Elsa acknowledging that Arendelle isn't one of the "big" countries, so she hasn't got that much money or manpower to throw around. Given that she also just severed ties to her biggest trade partner I don't think she can afford to arm her army any better anyways.
Meanwhile the actual commanders and generals and captains of the opposing armies are going to be much more experienced and competent, being actually trained leaders who've probably got at least a battle or two under their belt and have men who are clearly better trained, given Wessletons men were the only ones to show any competence and Corona bothering to give it's troops actual armor that wasn't a historical showpiece.
So Elsa is going into a battle when literally every other nation and dutchy is using better weapons, fielding better cavalry, using men that have much more experience, and are large enough to field an army several times that of her own. This is from basic observation of the actual movie and can't really be contested. Ice powers aside Arendelle is likley to be among the smallest and most poorly armed nations in the region, barring historical weirdness given half the countries listed are either fictional or if they existed have dynamics that are blatantly impossible(though even given their smallest possible area and coldest possible climate, are still as large or larger than Arendelle and likely to be much more dense population wise).
No matter how strong your ice powers, it would be monumentally stupid to put yourself in a situation where you're out in the open with zero preparation, with an enemy army fully prepared, their projectile and artillery weapons pointed straight at you. It is doubly monumentally stupid considering that you're the monarch of a nation and therefore have resources both mundane and supernatural to prevent the above situation.
Sometimes you get caught, and you only have to get caught once for it to be a disaster. Which is an expectation if you're the smaller, weaker nation who feels like invading because you now have one unique unit. Of course, again, since Tangled seems to be a thing that happened you probably aren't even the only magic in the world so even expecting to not get countered is stupid. Your resources are inferior in terms of the mundane, and are you really going to be the guy who thinks Elsa should walk up to the Fair Folk who have magic to counter hers and demand resources?
But then we have Jayngfet say "Okay, this is ***tty situation you are in, but you have ice powers. Let's see you get out of this one LOL. 3, 2, 1, go." And this is supposed to show that this Elsa is useless. It merely shows that this Elsa is braindead.
She's not useless, she's human and in this situation she's an invading army that's inferior to defenders. Fighting with a handicap is assumed.
In an actual war with an Elsa at the command of her own army, first of all her army would consist of both humans (technological peers of her enemies) and magical ice creatures (controlled by her as well as human handlers). The ice creatures may be sentient, but they're obviously friendly to their creator (as seen in the movie) and with prep can be directed by human handlers. Think trained war elephants etc. Secondly, she has complete control over the weather, which is always a deciding factor in war, especially pre-industrial war. She can just come out of her command tent on the night before the battle, conjure one localized polar vortex over the hill, and her army has already won the battle without firing a shot.
As we have established, her soldiers are not technological peers of their enemies. They are visibly inferior in every conceivable way. As the movie clearly demonstrates to anyone who was actually paying attention, she also has no real control over ice creatures and it's insane to think any "human handlers" can help with something they have no experience with. A trained war elephant is a creature that takes years of work with people experienced at it to be of use and even then was only fielded when necessary. Not only that, but a War Elephant can't suddenly grow spikes and attack people you care about if it gets pissed off. Or hell, a War Elephant has an actual skeletal structure and can stand up to a couple of swings from an old arming sword.
In this pre-Industrial Frozen-TV world, the only possible equalizers are (1) a braindead snow queen as Jayngfet proposed, or (2) other supernatural powers able to match her in their own way.
...or the fact that she has worse cavalry, worse weapons, worse solidiers(and fewer of them) no visible leadership training, no real control over her magic, and is apparently going to be invading lands she has no experience with and is fighting a force much larger and more skilled than hers on their home turf.
Magic is not an instawin button. Don't treat it like an instawin button. It's dangerous, yes, but it's only dangerous in a military context when wielded by trained soldiers who've worked with it instead of against it for much longer. When you're expecting one untrained civilian to both handle tactics and firepower as your only major trump card, you're going to lose.
I thought we've already decided a dozen posts ago that this Snow Queen would not be Elsa herself, seeing as how if we're talking about the character in character, she wouldn't invade anyone in the first place nevermind discussing whether or not she has military experience.
The scenario would really be about someone who is a monarch of a nation, who is ambitious and expansionist, and who has Elsa-level ice powers. Since we're not talking about Elsa herself, then in this scenario ofc this militaristic snow queen will know what she's doing in the war room and on the battlefield. Otherwise she wouldn't be making war in the first place.
I can concede that if she starts with an Arendel analog nation, it would start off as a weak little city-state as she takes the crown. But if she is a ruthless expansionist ruler, it would be a small nation which should grow into a major maritime/trade/economic/military power inside of a decade or 2, given that she can control the weather among other incredible benefits (as already discussed by others).
At that point, yes her army will be well-prepped and with updated military tech. And any lack of manpower (due to small nation) is ameliorated by well-trained icy warbeasts with pykrete endo/exoskeleton. And yes she will have columns of well-trained warbeasts with human handlers, it's not that hard with years of prep (except the pykrete, that is very hard).
Edit: But wait. Rapunzel (Tangled) was referenced/cameo-ed in the movie? What do u mean? Where? I totally must go back to watch that scene.
It's not about Elsa not being Elsa.
Tippyverse implies you are taking the characters to their theoretical maximums while working within their character limits.
It also means that you have to work within Elsa's intelligence and period knowledge to obtain those maximums. This is avoided in DnD by logicing it via INSANELY HIGH INTELLIGENCE SCORES (26+ int, beyond the smartest humans who have ever, and will ever, exist.)
It's not about Elsa not being Elsa.
Tippyverse implies you are taking the characters to their theoretical maximums while working within their character limits.
It also means that you have to work within Elsa's intelligence and period knowledge to obtain those maximums.
This is correct. Agreed.
Everything I had described does not require supergenius or even genius intellect on the Snow Queen's part. It only requires competent leadership, adequate motivation/ambition, and knowledge consistent within her time period and setting. For more specialized knowledge (such as how fine control of ice/cold can benefit agriculture etc)... that's why you have subjects.
JustSomeGuy
2014-03-04, 12:11 PM
Super strong ice:
How much weight was on those stairs she made, and was there a point where a guy fell off and grabbed on a rail? Also, how skinny were those skates she made at the end, and could they hold skate tricks, like spins and jumps?
Starting from a 'ther ice is as strong as the plot requires' to a definite 'the ice is x strong at y thickness' might help somewhat.
Also, for a thread discussing the plausible limits of ice magic, there sure are a lot of naysayers
Well for one thing, you're assuming that by moving around in a theoretically perfect and impenetrable cube, Elsa's skin can somehow survive being totally unable to come into contact with Oxygen. Or that she can even breathe in such a situation. Or that because she can make an ice dress, suddenly 90% of human biological functions no longer apply, evidence be damned.
I kinda assumed that there would be oxygen channels, but I did not specify, so fair enough.
Or that we know her actual area of effect and level of control. Arenedelle's actual statistics are vague to say the least and rely on plot convenience and caricature to be sold, as basically every animated city does. She could freeze the world in thirty seconds or be unable to actually control that kind of effect at all with much more limited results. We don't know and any guesses are hearsay that should be treated as such.
This is why I suggested we stop arguing a while ago, even though I brought upr the subject.
Or, say, that Elsa can actually control her ice creatures. As an actual animator who's picked apart half these scenes, even when doing something big consciously, Elsa doesn't actually have a huge amount of control over what comes out. Once she starts making a monster, she shrinks back and is basically just as terrified as everyone else as to what is going to emerge. A monster that has no non-crystaline bones and loses a limb at a single stroke from a weapon the wielder doesn't even own and obviously has little practice with(given the props context, it's a reasonable bet it's a mostly ceremonial or outdated piece he fished out along with his officers uniform). Elsa's ability to direct or control anything she summons is basically zero and should be treated as such.
I think we've already asserted that it would be someone with the ice powers, not necessarily Elsa. As for the snow creatures being fragile, perhaps she could encase them in some sort of ice armor. Maybe she could lower the temperature beneath their personal clouds to such an extent that anyone other then the ice creatures can not function. Maybe the sword guy had super strength. As you said before, there is not enough information to really decide anything. I mean, it's unlikely that this would even be the ice caster's primary combat tactic, considering the effectiveness of eternal super cold winter.
Also, its cool that you're an animator.
Or, for that matter, that she can dictate the terms of engagement at any, or even most conflicts. We see rather neatly the kind of ice she can put up as an instant defense and it barely stops a single bolt from a hand crossbow. If a much weightier one, or two, were aimed with that kind of accuracy from the same distance they'd shatter her shields and draw blood if not knock her off balance or unconscious at minimum. If you have more than two people with actual guns and cavalry and sabers, it becomes a contest of a group of actually trained fighters against one person with little to no control over their support.
Again, not Elsa, different person, same powers, superdense cube of ice with oxygen holes.
It only takes one person to end a life and Elsa would need to be one person against hundreds, any of whom need to get lucky once. One canon on a hill she didn't see loading(easy if she's throwing out ice storms blocking visions like you suggest) and she's dead. One cavalryman with a pistol or saber getting even reasonably close, and she could die before she can get a reaction. One line of fire stronger than expected and she's dead. One troll decides arrowheads made of fire crystals are a good idea, she's dead. A random group of gurellas attacks her on the way to a siege or battle, she's dead.
Ice cube with oxygen channels. Really, the ice cube was a good idea, all that's necessary is some sort of hole to allow for breathing, it's not that hard.
You can avoid stuff like that in DND since you can just tank a spear to the gut every time even as a mid level wizard. You can't do that when the dice aren't as play and with no modern medicine even a minor cut can lead to a slow, painful death. Elsa and her sister aren't player characters who can fight out any situation they find themselves in. They don't have people reading metabooks that describe every single situation and ideal geometry and know the exact details of every effect that can be done at any time in theoretical situations. They're people, who have an obviously limited idea of what can be done with power like this and aren't in a hurry to try to find out.
I completely agree, which is why I was referring to her powers, rather than the fragile person wielding them. This would be a non-argument if we were discussing the various ways in which ELSA could ruthlessly crush other nations.
As a final note, good find on the deleted scene where Arendelle is identified as a "smaller country".
What I am about to say next is very important. Above, you said we cannot assume much, since we can't gauge the extent of ice powers based on what is found in the film. However, if this is the case, there is no reason to assume that there are firearms of any sort. She is NOT a "nineteenth century monarch". There is no time ever given. This could be an alternate universe where gunpowder does not even exist. We just don't know.
In conclusion, we're all bit wrong (especially me), and this idea was dumb, my bad, let's all be friends and stop.
EDIT: I also did not see the Rapunzel thing, and I'd like for that to pointed out, just for interest's sake.
Oxygen channels create a "death star exhaust port" problem, only with.. any sort of firebomb being sufficient to cook her alive inside it.
Hell toss some Greek fire on the ice cube and watch the ice burn.
Oxygen channels create a "death star exhaust port" problem, only with.. any sort of firebomb being sufficient to cook her alive inside it.
Hell toss some Greek fire on the ice cube and watch the ice burn.
That's true but I think it's worth keeping it like that, just for the cinematic appeal.
I don't imagine the oxygen channels being large enough for a firebomb to breach them, though. Nor do I think that anyone would get anywhere close to the cube, due to supercold temperatures within at least several miles, generated by the storm powers and subsequent "making the storm colder" powers. Fires could be put out by those cloud things.
That's true but I think it's worth keeping it like that, just for the cinematic appeal.
I don't imagine the oxygen channels being large enough for a firebomb to breach them, though. Nor do I think that anyone would get anywhere close to the cube, due to supercold temperatures within at least several miles, generated by the storm powers and subsequent "making the storm colder" powers. Fires could be put out by those cloud things.
The coldest temps that Elsa's shown to been capable of emitting were enough to freeze metal she was touching, but beyond that it wasn't enough to even cause immediate frostbite.
Even if it was, then just shoot a ballista bolt through or a cannon shell filled with greek fire that breaks on impact if you can't get close.
The cannon shell would handle even the end of the movie blizzard winds she was putting out at full despair mode.
ThePhantom
2014-03-04, 04:36 PM
But how would you aim that Cannon shell in that condition? No one could see more than about 5 feet in front of them at that time. Yes, Elsa is vulnerable to things, but when your weapons include blizzards that can cover miles, it isn't easy to get that close.
But how would you aim that Cannon shell in that condition? No one could see more than about 5 feet in front of them at that time. Yes, Elsa is vulnerable to things, but when your weapons include blizzards that can cover miles, it isn't easy to get that close.
The center of the storm was immediately visible to Anna who isn't someone accustomed to living in blizzard conditions. It was also immediately apparent to Hans, Kristoff, and Sven as well.
There's nothing that stops Elsa herself from being hit when this happens, the only thing that it would do is protect her forces, and even then only preventing them from being pinpoint targetted.
The center of the storm was immediately visible to Anna who isn't someone accustomed to living in blizzard conditions. It was also immediately apparent to Hans, Kristoff, and Sven as well.
There's nothing that stops Elsa herself from being hit when this happens, the only thing that it would do is protect her forces, and even then only preventing them from being pinpoint targetted.
She could just use high force winds to throw the firebombs of course. There is no evidence of cannons.
She could just use high force winds to throw the firebombs of course. There is no evidence of cannons.
They have ocean faring ships, and cannons were on the ships at the end of the movie.
That puts them in the gunpowder Era, Arendale is just especially militarily backwards.
Jayngfet
2014-03-04, 05:53 PM
They have ocean faring ships, and cannons were on the ships at the end of the movie.
That puts them in the gunpowder Era, Arendale is just especially militarily backwards.
Well, yeah. As anyone who bothered to watch the movie can confirm.
Arendelle's military is at least a generation behind. Every single scrap of material even outside the movie supports this. They have worse cavalry, worse swords, worse armor, a lower population(and thus a smaller army), and look like they haven't been to war in so long they probably don't have any soldiers with fighting experience anyway. Given how puny their crown jewels are compared to Corona's secondary and tertiary jewellery, they're visibly poorer than any of their neighbors.
The only reason they haven't lost a war or been conquered seems to be that they have reasonably good relationships with all of their neighbors and the rest of Europe. The spanish seem to like them, and the French are at least willing to do the occasional favor. The British empire doesn't seem to actually exist since Ireland looks like it's independent(or else the revolution a generation or two earlier worked in this timeline), and Germany looks to have unified a century early at least. Corona seems to like them, among the other fictional kingdoms, though we don't know how close they are(the general assumption being a degree of intermarriage, though similar appearances family wise could be coincidence). Not to mention what looks like dozens of other countries willing to at least send token delegates.
Everyone here is taking a visibly small nation with sparse habitation, with an incredibly backwards and under trained military, that seems to get by entirely on trade and diplomacy, and turn it into some type of all conquering powerhouse.
Great, I'm glad people have produced numerous revelations about the film. My incorrectness only makes it so much more interesting. Just to put it out there, the "Frozen Wiki", which I hadn't known existed until now, says that it takes place in about the 1840s, which means gatling guns are going to happen within the next 20 years.
So now I'm wondering how much of an effect those powers COULD have if every nation was as powerful as the "big nations" of the Frozen world.
Great, I'm glad people have produced numerous revelations about the film. My incorrectness only makes it so much more interesting. Just to put it out there, the "Frozen Wiki", which I hadn't known existed until now, says that it takes place in about the 1840s, which means gatling guns are going to happen within the next 20 years.
So now I'm wondering how much of an effect those powers COULD have if every nation was as powerful as the "big nations" of the Frozen world.
It means atomic bombs in a century.
Which means that Elsa's life is PROBABLY going to end if a horrific conflagaration if she doesn't die of old age before then, or if her "Tippyverse" in this thread tendencies don't make it's earlier development a necessity and thus entirely possible.
I don't care what anyone says on the matter, a nuke levels not only Elsa but all of Arendale. No amount of Ice, super or otherwise, is doing to be able to handle atomics.
Jayngfet
2014-03-04, 09:46 PM
It means atomic bombs in a century.
Which means that Elsa's life is PROBABLY going to end if a horrific conflagaration if she doesn't die of old age before then, or if her "Tippyverse" in this thread tendencies don't make it's earlier development a necessity and thus entirely possible.
I don't care what anyone says on the matter, a nuke levels not only Elsa but all of Arendale. No amount of Ice, super or otherwise, is doing to be able to handle atomics.
Lets face it, if someone like Elsa got belligerent, then we'd probably see weapons development a hell of a lot earlier. They'd try to throw basically everything they could at her and see what works best then try to throw better versions of that out.
If Elsa can survive a standard cavalry pistol or a couple of shots from one, expect the next cavalry to suddenly sport much larger pistols capable of shattering a shield of the same thickness much more easily. Or expect the Napolianic artillery methods to show up again, but with even smaller and lighter and more efficiently loaded guns so suddenly your shield of crystal is being constantly bombarded by heavy fire. Revolvers have already been invented, but expect them to become much more common much faster, so that now those cavalry pistols aren't just delivering force several times what Elsa could barely stop in the film, but are capable of doing it several times faster, so that a group of them could fill any would be ice queen full of holes.
Elsa might get some initial successes, but given the leaps and bounds being made that her kingdom is already generations behind, she'd be in for a nasty surprise as suddenly everyone else is firing off guns with ten times expected speed to deliver payloads that hurt twice as bad and land with greater accuracy.
Even if she somehow made it through northern and western europe, the americans would sure as hell bombard her before she ever made it to shore and try to sneak the weapons through to the european theater.
lunar2
2014-03-10, 03:09 PM
i just wanted to point out that elsa is capable of making things that are not ice, snow, or water. when she made olaf, she created the coal buttons and wooden arms along with him. as a kid, when she made the first olaf, she even made the carrot nose. also, she made her blue dress herself, which at least moves like cloth, and is not melted by her body heat, so is most likely cloth.
so in addition to ice, snow, and water, she is capable of making coal, wood, food, and cloth. she could drive her kingdom's industry almost single-handedly.
i just wanted to point out that elsa is capable of making things that are not ice, snow, or water. when she made olaf, she created the coal buttons and wooden arms along with him. as a kid, when she made the first olaf, she even made the carrot nose. also, she made her blue dress herself, which at least moves like cloth, and is not melted by her body heat, so is most likely cloth.
so in addition to ice, snow, and water, she is capable of making coal, wood, food, and cloth. she could drive her kingdom's industry almost single-handedly.
She didn't make the nose..
Anna giving him the nose was part of the introduction, the rest can be assumed as "picked up branches that'd fallen off trees / been blown to her location, and colored ice for the buttons.
Ice Dress was Ice Dress because Elsa clearly says a billion times "The cold never bothered me anyways." presumably kept from breaking via magical ice telekinesis.
Jayngfet
2014-03-10, 04:40 PM
i just wanted to point out that elsa is capable of making things that are not ice, snow, or water. when she made olaf, she created the coal buttons and wooden arms along with him. as a kid, when she made the first olaf, she even made the carrot nose. also, she made her blue dress herself, which at least moves like cloth, and is not melted by her body heat, so is most likely cloth.
so in addition to ice, snow, and water, she is capable of making coal, wood, food, and cloth. she could drive her kingdom's industry almost single-handedly.
She didn't make those, she grabbed them from offscreen.
Why there was a bundle of wood and coal just offscreen is another story entirely.
She didn't make those, she grabbed them from offscreen.
Why there was a bundle of wood and coal just offscreen is another story entirely.
To be 100% fair, it's like. 2 gnarled sticks, and some black rock. Not even necessarily coal.
If you don't assume black ice.
Jayngfet
2014-03-10, 06:27 PM
To be 100% fair, it's like. 2 gnarled sticks, and some black rock. Not even necessarily coal.
If you don't assume black ice.
Right, but I find it much more amusing to assume Elsa stole some dudes firewood while he was off taking a leak or something. It's funnier that way.
Right, but I find it much more amusing to assume Elsa stole some dudes firewood while he was off taking a leak or something. It's funnier that way.
That it is, and that's really Frozen's point isn't it?
lunar2
2014-03-10, 10:18 PM
there was no wood, black rock, or coal to be seen from any angle on her walk up. she didn't "pull it from off screen", she created it. she waved her hands, and the stuff was just there. also, if you watch the sequence, while the arms fly in from just off screen, the coal/rock buttons do not. they definitely are created along with the snow. and no, it's not black ice. black ice isn't black, it's clear.
as for the first olaf, you're right, they built him, not magicked him. my bad. so no food.
still, we got wood and either rock or coal (probably coal, since that's the traditional material used for snowmen).
and elsa's dress was not ice. ice doesn't move like that. also, her dress doesn't melt even when she brings summer back, while the much larger mass of snow that is olaf starts melting immediately.
also, did anyone else notice her boobs got bigger when she changed dresses? i didn't notice it until the 30th or so time watching that clip, but she definitely sticks out about an inch further in the blue dress.
Jayngfet
2014-03-10, 10:33 PM
there was no wood, black rock, or coal to be seen from any angle on her walk up. she didn't "pull it from off screen", she created it. she waved her hands, and the stuff was just there. also, if you watch the sequence, while the arms fly in from just off screen, the coal/rock buttons do not. they definitely are created along with the snow. and no, it's not black ice. black ice isn't black, it's clear.
We don't see her make coal either. The angle has Olaf turned entirely away from us. The obvious answer is probably that the animators didn't bother showing unnecessary information, or information that would have complicated the scene visually, as opposed to assuming she can just summon coal at will too and it never came up.
As for the rest, I tend to hate abusing the MST3K Mantra, but seriously it's kind of just a movie. Frozen doesn't make sense at a fundamental level from a realistic standpoint. The lighting is done stage style instead of following natural light sources, Elsa's head contains quadruple the amount of hair an actual human's would, and there's no way she'd be able to walk around in heels with inward facing spikes like that for more than maybe an hour at a time, let alone two days(I know, I've seen cosplayers in professional quality reproductions try).
I mean yeah, her bust was probably a bit compressed in the tight looking layered thing she started out with(Anna's body seems squashed in her dress, but she keeps the chestpiece in both outfits). But her dress can't really melt for a number of reasons. One being that Elsa's underwear kinda dissapears when she changes, to point out the obvious. The practical reasons are there for a lot of it, but at the end of the day you have to accept that the answer to a lot of things is "because it's more convenient to animate in CG."
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