Need help PC-proofing fort.

[Pinkie Pyro]

So, here's the problem: I'm trying to figure out how defending and besieging would really work in DnD, with my houserules, of course.

currently what I've got are guards wearing armor that causes a permanent obscuring mist around them, and pierce magical concealment so they aren't affected by it. shaped hallowed ground and magic traps give archers atop the wall +30 to hit, +10 damage, and automatic critical hits with longbows from greater magic weapon, true strike, and hunter's mercy. shaped hallows of make whole protect the masonry, causing it to repair itself to full every round, making the use of siege weapons seemingly pointless. hallowed ground is not a dispellable magical effect as far as I've read, and I'm defaulting to no to being able to remove the spell effect from it. the castle is entirely scry/teleport proof.

so my question is: what do I really need to look out for? I don't see any glaring flaws in the security, save teleporting into tunnels under it and passwall+flying up, but I'm intentionally leaving that one in.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Right here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=302120#4)

[CrazyYanmega]

You should be getting +35 to hit, +5 for damage. Greater Magic Weapon maxes out at +5

[Pinkie Pyro]

You should be getting +35 to hit, +5 for damage. Greater Magic Weapon maxes out at +5

normally it would be +20 from true strike, +5 to hit from greater magic weapon, and the enhancement bonus on the bow and arrows wouldn't stack, but I've changed how stacking rules work in my campaign, so a +5 longbow and +5 arrows come out to +10 damage and +10 to hit.

I realize this isn't the most sane way to handle something like this, but after the fighter complained that getting a belt of giant's strength +4 benefited the wizard more because he didn't have to prepare bull's strength, I just started letting things stack.

but yeah, you'd be correct by RAW

also, Biffoniacus Furiou, I read that a long, long time ago when it first came out, and as brilliant as it is, it doesn't really help when the castle is already under siege.

[CrazyYanmega]

Could you give us some more information?

How many PCs are you expecting?
Do these PCs have backup? If so, in what form?
What level are the PCs?
What classes are the PCs?
How determined are you to prevent these PCs from entering?
Do you expect the PCs to be able to take this castle out at a later date?
Are you attempting to perform a Total Party Kill, depending on the PCs determination to bring about their own doom?
Are there any additional resources the PCs may call upon?
Does your castle have a well defended supplyline?
Is your castle self-sustaining?
I assume your castle has quite a few high level casters, to be able to cast these protective spells. What are they, and what spells do they have?
Does your castle have outside allies or resources to call upon?



You have one key advantage in your favor: You know the enemy. Your opponents don't.

[Pinkie Pyro]

Could you give us some more information?

How many PCs are you expecting?
Do these PCs have backup? If so, in what form?
What level are the PCs?
What classes are the PCs?
How determined are you to prevent these PCs from entering?
Do you expect the PCs to be able to take this castle out at a later date?
Are you attempting to perform a Total Party Kill, depending on the PCs determination to bring about their own doom?
Are there any additional resources the PCs may call upon?
Does your castle have a well defended supplyline?
Is your castle self-sustaining?


I was actually looking for general things of any level, but here you go:
4 PCs, of level 4, wizard, druid, rogue, fighter decently high optimization
backup includes the besieging forces of a silver dragon duke, and possibly the help of a great wrym silver dragon (through spell casting, not direct help)
the PCs are supposed to get in, it just isn't supposed to be easy, I want to make sure there are no big, super easy tricks that would bring it to a crumble.
the PCs do have as long as they need to storm the castle.
the splitting prismatic hunter's mercy longbow the count has says PC deaths are a strong possibility if they aren't playing it safe.
castle is self sustaining, with magic traps for food and water, and enough spell casters to keep things running smoothly.

[CrazyYanmega]

Have your spellcasters turn the bedrock beneath the castle to metal. That will prevent any "Move Earth" or tunnel shenanigans. Actually, even better: Make some kind of magical proximity "Rock to Lava" trap. As soon as the Players get close to the castle basement... BLAM! Insta-death, no saving throw. If I could think of it, a Wizard would have thought of it ages ago.

You have the skies pretty well covered, and if your ammunition and food resources are taken care of, morale should be pretty high. Assuming about 100 active archers per shift, that dragon is not getting anywhere NEAR the castle without being smashed to pieces. Not even that Great Wyrm is going to last more than a couple of rounds or get close enough to use any but the most long-spells, what with each bow dealing a minimum of 33 damage, and going out to a range of 330 ft.

No way to attack from below, from ground level, OR from the sky. The castle is self-sustaining AND self-repairing. Nothing barring Earthquake, Tornado level Control Winds, an Emerald Legionnaire, or a Commoner Railgun is going to get through this castle.

If they DO manage to get past this and succeed, you MUST promise to post here and let us know what happened. Heck, post even if they don't.

[Pinkie Pyro]

>underground lava bombs to stop tunnelers

yes

I'm actually not sure if an earthquake would work, because as soon as the masonry is damaged, it's automatically repaired to full. tornado level destroys non fortificated buildings, and the building is literally a fortification, so i don't think that applies, and even if it does, self-full repairing.

due to plot(TM) the PCs do actually have an artifact that would allow them to make an undead army of trolls that still had regeneration, though i doubt they'd use it unless it was a last resort, as they're all good aligned and decent roleplayers.

commoner railgun would have the same problem as the other damage dealers: auto-preparing structures.

Locate city bomb is out because I've straight up banned it, because it's just a silly way to get Apocalypse from the sky early.

but, I'm sure the PCs will find a way.

though it brings up an interesting question: if any fort if decent wealth can be made nigh-impenetrable even by high level casters, what's the point of bothering with a siege that will ultimately fail?

[CrazyYanmega]

Locate city bomb is out because I've straight up banned it, because it's just a silly way to get Apocalypse from the sky early.

though it brings up an interesting question: if any fort if decent wealth can be made nigh-impenetrable even by high level casters, what's the point of bothering with a siege that will ultimately fail?

Locate City Bomb wouldn't even work anyway. That requires at least 4 feats, and the players are level 4.

Siege still works if you think about it differently. These are DRAGONS we're talking about. With the gender ratio in the castle likely to be greatly skewed, there's going to be few offspring produced to maintain the siege in the long term. Being limited to the castle for decades on end is also going to wear down on morale eventually. The dragons can actively recruit, the besieged cannot.

Trolls still won't work, Flaming Burst arrows are not that hard to craft. Unless they manage to get past the wall and spread a panic, your artifact is nothing more than a distraction.

[ahenobarbi]

Did you check how much loot PCs will gain if they win? Because that sounds very expensive (which can be a problem mater).

[ahenobarbi]

What soldiers defend the fort? There probably are a lot of ways to take them. Poisoning (fabricate huge amounts of inhaled poison is cheap and effective). Dominating them (or other form of mind-controlling). Spreading disease (cast contagion on some animals). Attacking with any weapon with significantly longer range than what they use (like spells with long range + enlarge spell). All those methods should be accessible to the party you described.

[mangosta71]

Locate City Bomb wouldn't even work anyway. That requires at least 4 feats, and the players are level 4.
Given that he said his players are "decently high op" I assume they took flaws.

They could have one of their silver dragon allies drop a sphere of annihilation from a couple thousand feet up.

They could dig a hole through a wall with multiple castings of Stone to Mud (as it's not actually damaging the walls, it would bypass the Make Whole thing).

How does the fort get its food and water? How long will their stores last? They can encircle the fort beyond bow range and just sit there until the defenders starve. Or, as someone else said, poison the water supply. Even if it's an underground spring that surfaces inside the walls, the druid can shapeshift into something with a burrow speed (such as a dire badger) and get to it. Or he can dig a tunnel for the rest of the party to use.

[Telonius]

It does sound like there is a blind spot in your preparations ... the objective of the PCs. Is their goal, "Blow up the castle and kill everyone inside?" Or is it, "Obtain something from inside the castle?" If the goal is anything other than annihilation, there will be non-combat ways to achieve it. Disguising themselves as guards, simple bribery, stealth, low-grade diplomancy, using (gasp!) Forgery to get access to areas that would usually be off-limits.

[CrazyYanmega]

How does the fort get its food and water? How long will their stores last? They can encircle the fort beyond bow range and just sit there until the defenders starve. Or, as someone else said, poison the water supply. Even if it's an underground spring that surfaces inside the walls, the druid can shapeshift into something with a burrow speed (such as a dire badger) and get to it. Or he can dig a tunnel for the rest of the party to use.

They're level 4. No wild shape yet. OP said they have magic traps for food and water, so no waiting them out in the short term. Lava bombs block tunneling.

[zlefin]

Sounds reasonably solid.
How strong is the besieging force though?
A few wind walls would allow an army to get close, though they'd still have quite a fight on their hands; I don't remember what all the other anti-arrow spells are.
Non-magical smoke/fog would also let people get in close.
Do you have to keep out the PCs AND the besieging force attacking with a full coordinated plan, or just the PCs?

I also don't see a mention of anything to specifically remove/prevent invisible people from going in undetected.

[icefractal]

I don't think Spheres of Annihilation are subject to gravity; otherwise, they would all end up at the center of the world.

That aside, high altitude bombardment sounds like an effective strategy. Fly above the walls, drop several big heavy things in rapid succession. The first couple smash aside any covering over the walls, the next few splatter any guards there. Sure, the roof repairs itself a few seconds later, but the guards are already dead.

Or clouds of poison. Disease, I don't think is as big a threat. It takes longer to spread, and the fort likely has some Clerics inside that can cure it. But just dumping vats of (minor creation'd) Black Lotus on the guards from above would be pretty effective. Add Delay/Neutralize Poison to your hallow, perhaps?

Actually, the guards are in general the weak point - they don't seem to have any defenses beyond concealment and a good offense. And while they might be accurate enough to shoot hundreds of feet, seeing something stealthy from that far away is a lot harder. Seems like one invisible dragon with am escape plan (Alter Self into a dragon type with a burrow speed would do it) could fly up and breath weapon a bunch of them.

[Blackhawk748]

You've probably thought of this, but i didnt see it here, but Stone Shape. The druid can just make their own door in the wall somewhere, though with everything you have set up they would need to stealth up there, so id probably let them do it. Thats just me though

[Pinkie Pyro]

As an update: the PCs have commissioned a magical zeppelin to be made out of adamantine, to reign down fireballs and poison upon the guards, to distract them while the PCs sneak inside.

it seems like a solid plan so far, though they're going to have to wing it once they're inside, due to traps and such.

as for some of the other questions that have been brought up, i'd like to remind you that the defending side has alot of casters at the ready, able to remove/ delay poison, disease, and dispell wind walls and such, making a regular attack with protections rather hard to pull off.

the magic traps that provide true strike and hunter's mercy also provide true seeing, of course, to stop invisibility and illusions from being a factor.

[Tectonic Robot]

...How much money do these level 4's have?

[zlefin]

When things like adamantine zeppelins and true seeing TRAPS (and all the expense those imply) are being thrown around; and the defenders obviously have numerous level 5+ casters; why are mere 4th levels being sent to do anything?

[Erik Vale]

*Skipping to the End*
Make it all able to plane-shift to somewhere inhospitable, and fill it with people who don't care how inhospitable it is.

[Pinkie Pyro]

They succeded, just so everyone knows. they were able to sneak in while the guards were distracted by the lead adamantine zeppelin, and captured the count, though the fighter got killed on the way out. keep in mind, the actual guards were only about level 1-3, so regular stealth worked fine.

the players are happy with it, so it all worked out. Except for the fighter, he's a little sour.