Sorcerer: the Wizard++

[Yananas]

I know Sorcerer is always seen as sub-par when compared with a Wizard, but I believe they can get pretty close, and the Sorcerer might even outclass the Wizard at some point.

Let me elaborate. I've been building a Sorcerer lately. Not just any Sorcerer, but a sorcerous Killer Gnome variant. Let's throw in Metamagic to get it going.
Sorcerer/Incantatrix/Shadowcraft Mage.

With ScM, Silent Image allows us to ignore a large part of the spell list limitations, and Incantatrix together with the Metamagic Specialist variant help us throw MM on spells without having to cast full-round. Also, persisted buffs, normal Incantatrix shenanigans. The build is chosen to create a Wizard-like build, with slightly more flexibility in casting (no prep needed, he can cast whatever he wants, whenever he wants), and slightly less flexibility in spell selection (although ScM takes away a large part of that).

We'd need a focus on Cha, and a slight focus on Int for spellcraft. The reason I think the Sorcerer variant can overtake a Wizard build is especially the focus on Cha.
Diplomacy and Leadership bring a power very different from the power a Wizard wields. The Wizard can destroy about anything that stands... well, just about anywhere. The charismatic character however, can make people do what he wants, get power in numbers and social rank. He could get an army to fight for him without expanding a single spell. Add to this an approximation of the Wizard's power, and won't we get much more? After all, a King is nothing without people to rule over, and even a God is nothing without his followers.

The main problem is spell selection. We can ignore any Conjuration(Creation) spells, which has a lot of good BC. We need Silent Image, but after that we're free to make a selection that will make this little Gnome into a sorcerous God.

What do you think? Is it viable to make a Sorcerer a Wizard++? If not, why? If yes, are there options I've missed? Also, help on spell selection would be nice (since I'm actually going to play this character).

[Rebel7284]

Or you can make a Wizard into a sorcerer++ by adding spontaneous casting from SCM/Spontaneous Divination/Uncanny Forethought onto a wizard.

At high levels it doesn't really matter either way.

[Yananas]

Or you can make a Wizard into a sorcerer++ by adding spontaneous casting from SCM/Spontaneous Divination/Uncanny Forethought onto a wizard.

At high levels it doesn't really matter either way.

Well, that's true, but that misses the power of a Charisma based character, which was my reason for thinking a Sorcerer would outclass a Wizard. In terms of pure casting, a Sorc might get close to, but could never outrank a Wizard.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Well, that's true, but that misses the power of a Charisma based character, which was my reason for thinking a Sorcerer would outclass a Wizard. In terms of pure casting, a Sorc might get close to, but could never outrank a Wizard.

And the sorcerer misses the juicy skill points that a high intelligence score gives - your point?

[Rebel7284]

Where does the sorcerer get the skill points to put into Cha related skills? At least a wizard has a high int and thus a lot more skill points. Also, the ONLY Cha based skill sorcerers get is Bluff...

[Yananas]

Those are pretty valid points, and I guess I haven't thought the SP issue through. Would there be ways around these issues?

[Yuki Akuma]

Ways to get extra skill points

More Intelligence
Being a human or human subrace that still gets the bonus skill points
The Nymph's Kiss feat (requires Good alignment)
There's another feat that just outright gives skill points but I forget its name

Ways to get more out of cross-class skills

Take a level in a class that has it as a class skill (increases rank to Level + 3)
Martial Study (grants a single class skill depending on the discipline you choose)
Able Learner feat (requires human subtype or appropriate ability that lets you count as having it, lowers price of ranks for cross-class skills from 2 to 1)

[Fouredged Sword]

Well, feats can solve some of your problems. You can get diplomacy through Martial study. I think bluff can be gained through another feat, but then you are burning feats on skills, not a good trade.

Besides, an charisma score bonus difference between a wizard who invests mildly in charisma and sorcerer is maybe +5.

At a +5 difference, you are not crippled, and when you really want to make that check, there is always a potion of Guidance of the Avatar.

[Cog]

If your argument that class X is strong relies on the class abilities of class Y, you haven't argued that class X is strong at all.

[Red Fel]

One of the core problems your theory faces is that, yes, while Sorcerers are a Cha-based class and Wizards are not, high-level spell casters could really care less about any attribute other than their casting attribute. Spells can duplicate everything else. Everything.

A well-prepared caster can melee better than melee, face better than face, everything. He doesn't need Str, Con, or Dex, since he can use spells to obviate the need for them. He doesn't need that many skills, since he can use spells to obviate the need for them.

You say every god needs followers. No, every god needs his own private demiplane in which he can use Hide Life and from which he can Astral Project and Plane Shift in order to enjoy functional immortality on the Prime Material.

And if he does need followers, he doesn't need Diplomacy, or Bluff, or any social skills. He has spells for that, too. If he really wants to rally the people, he can take over their minds with a spell. But why stop with mortals? He can summon the incarnate forms of cosmic forces which are bound to his service. You can bring your army of humans - I have Outsiders.

And that, I think, is the point. At the end of the day, the Wizard gets more. More spells, more metamagic feats. The Sorcerer's Cha-focus is irrelevant. The Sorcerer's spontaneous casting is a minor gap that can be fixed.

The Sorcerer can be improved. The Sorcerer can be wicked awesome. Frankly, I prefer Sorcs to Wizards from a personal perspective. But the Wizard will always be more than the Sorcerer.

[Telonius]

The biggest bit of (horribly cheesy) wiggle-room is going to be one word in the sorcerer description:

A sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list.

If you take the most liberal possible interpretation of that - meaning that the sorcerer is not limited to the Wizard spell list, and every spell is potentially a Sorcerer spell - then combine it with Greater Shadow Conjuration and Shadow Evocation's wording, you'd be able to emulate the following Core spells (in addition to the usual Sorcerer/Wizard spells):
Conjuration
Summon Nature's Ally 1-6
Create Water
Create Food and Water
Fire Seeds
Fog Cloud
Wall of Thorns
Insect Plague
Summon Instrument

Evocation
Blade Barrier
Blasphemy
Consecrate
Deeper Darkness
Desecrate
Dictum
Divine Favor
Divine Power
Earthquake (Earth 7)
Fire Storm
Flame Strike
Hallow
Helping Hand
Holy Word
Imbue with Spell-like Ability
Invisibility Purge
Searing Light
Sound Burst
Spiritual Weapon
Unhallow
Word of Chaos
Greater Shout (Bard 6)
Sympathetic Vibration (Bard 6)
Call Lightning
Call Lightning Storm
Faerie Fire
Flame Blade
Produce Flame
Sunbeam
Holy Sword

(This will get rulebooks flung in the general direction of your head. Do not actually try this in a real game).

[Dr. Cliché]

Diplomacy and Leadership bring a power very different from the power a Wizard wields. The Wizard can destroy about anything that stands... well, just about anywhere. The charismatic character however, can make people do what he wants, get power in numbers and social rank. He could get an army to fight for him without expanding a single spell.

Thing is, whilst the sorcerer can potentially accomplish this, it seems like the wizard could also do it - only with spells. Sure, he has to use spells, but I'm presuming this diplomacy is taking place in a city - so it's not like he needs to save his spells for a dungeon or anything. And, with his versatility, he can have such spells at his disposal (whereas the sorcerer generally needs to be more reserved with his spell list).

Also, I'm a little dubious about him getting an army without using magic. Maybe if he has epic-level diplomacy... but by then he (or a wizard) should be able just conjure their own army. :smalltongue:


high-level spell casters could really care less about any attribute other than their casting attribute.

Please watch this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om7O0MFkmpw).

[Aliek]

I thought the best perk of being a CHA-based caster was how easier it is to pump CHA than INT?

[Invader]

I have a problem with saying X is better than X when you take levels of incanatrix. Incanatrix shouldn't be a benchmark for any kind of balancing or comparison.

[Phelix-Mu]

I have a problem with saying X is better than X when you take levels of incanatrix. Incanatrix shouldn't be a benchmark for any kind of balancing or comparison.

Ditto. Pile of s#*&/Incantatrix 10 is a viable build.

[Rubik]

One of the core problems your theory faces is that, yes, while Sorcerers are a Cha-based class and Wizards are not, high-level spell casters could really care less about any attribute other than their casting attribute.Actually, no, they couldn't. There's nothing more important to a T1 or T2 caster than their casting stat.

Con comes close, but even then, it's less important.

[edit] Gah! Queensage'd!

[Juntao112]

Actually, no, they couldn't. There's nothing more important to a T1 or T2 caster than their casting stat.

Con comes close, but even then, it's less important.

Eh, Necropolitan.

[Rubik]

Eh, Necropolitan.Except when you want to be a warforged or neraph or a lesser tiefling/aasimar or have other major strategies that require you to be alive (or at least, not undead).