PF Sorcerer/Oracle/Mystic Theurge

[SpawnOfMorbo]

So first off i'll start off by saying that I know multiclassing is a bad idea in pathfinder (since everything is based on class and not ECL) and prestige classes are usually lacking... But i'm creating a Sorcerer/Oracle multi class character.

Partially for the yummy yummy fluff involved with my character. Starting out as a sorcerer he is an atheist in a group of heavy divine casters. The oracle stuff comes in "against his will" from my direction though and not the DMs

So while I know the ins and outs of most things 3.P there is one thing that that I'm not sure of and my phone isn't working with d20pfsrd all that well right now.

When I gain my second level and take level in oracle, for all my spells (arcane and divine) is my level 2 (Sorcerer1/Oracle1) count as caster level 2 or does he count as caster level 1 for arcane spells/caster level 1for divine spells?

Thanks in advance!

[Psyren]

The second one - CL 1/CL 1.

I recommend you go straight sorcerer with a divine-flavored bloodline instead, e.g. Celestial. Or straight Oracle with the Eldritch Heritage feat chain.

If you must go this route, be sure to look into the Magical Talent trait, and/or see if your DM will let you bring Practiced Spellcaster in from 3.5.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

The second one - CL 1/CL 1.

I recommend you go straight sorcerer with a divine-flavored bloodline instead, e.g. Celestial. Or straight Oracle with the Eldritch Heritage feat chain.

If you must go this route, be sure to look into the Magical Talent trait, and/or see if your DM will let you bring Practiced Spellcaster in from 3.5.

I'm purposely choosing a less than optimal build because... Well if I don't i'm going to out perform the rest of the party by miles without trying. The group is not an optimized group and the DM is working according to this (for the most part...).

But I'll look into the practiced spellcaster feat from 3.5, I'm not to worried about it to much but it could help the party more.

[Kraken]

Depending on what you and your group are comfortable with, you could enter mystic theurge at 4 under PF's rules if you want. The PF devs have stated that spell like abilities count as spells for the purpose of entry requirements. All three of the +cha aasimars get a racial second level spells as SLAs, and because those SLA's show up on the wizard list, it makes them arcane (I forgot the order, beyond the wizard list being at the top). The wood mystery grants a second level spell as an SLA, and because the ability comes from a divine class, it's automatically divine. So with aasimar as your race and the wood mystery, you hit the spellcasting requirements to enter mystic theurge, at that point only the skill ranks pose a barrier to entry.

Further, if you'll be playing with fame, Inner Sea Magic has guild rules that progress your spellcasting ability automatically at certain fame benchmarks, as long as it won't progress you spellcasting ability beyond your HD. THis doesn't just give a caster level bonus, it explicitly gives you more and higher level spells per day. At 5 fame you get +1 to a spellcasting class of your choice, and at 35 fame the +1 improves to +3, and you get another +1 in a different class. The end result of this is that you can actually get 17th level casting in two different classes (hitting 17th in your first at 17th level, if you play it that way), or 20/14 if you prefer.

For further reading, here's a good guide (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZFnvgbhjMibHJRft0dl_4gbcMw0-dAMUFYFlsyS7d60/edit?pli=1) for grabbing SLA's to meet such qualifications. I believe somewhere in there it explains in more details why what I've described is rock solid on RAW, and even PFS legal (though the Inner Sea Magic guilds aren't PFS legal - I think?).

[charcoalninja]

I know your question has been answered but I just want to toss my vote in favour of continuing with your MT build.

I`m actually playing this exact build and I find it very potent even though I`ve compounded weaknesses by being a crossblooded sorcerer (and thus having 1 less spell known of every level). Though only 2nd level right now, where you are the build allows you to make up for your caster level deficits in many ways. Spell Specialization gives you a caster level boost on a main spell that changes as you level, and oracle contains cleric staples that don`t care overmuch for caster level at all such as healing and combat buffs like bless and divine favour which last 1 minute regardless but are still noticable boosts at lower levels. Additionally magical Lineage on a favoured spell will give a great boost to your power by allowing you to metamagic more efficiently with all those slots you're going to have.

So in essence what you do is you ride the support abilities of your Oracle half until your sorcerer uumph gets up to speed and in my experience it works very well simply because you have so many powerful spells.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Depending on what you and your group are comfortable with, you could enter mystic theurge at 4 under PF's rules if you want. The PF devs have stated that spell like abilities count as spells for the purpose of entry requirements. All three of the +cha aasimars get a racial second level spells as SLAs, and because those SLA's show up on the wizard list, it makes them arcane (I forgot the order, beyond the wizard list being at the top). The wood mystery grants a second level spell as an SLA, and because the ability comes from a divine class, it's automatically divine. So with aasimar as your race and the wood mystery, you hit the spellcasting requirements to enter mystic theurge, at that point only the skill ranks pose a barrier to entry.

Further, if you'll be playing with fame, Inner Sea Magic has guild rules that progress your spellcasting ability automatically at certain fame benchmarks, as long as it won't progress you spellcasting ability beyond your HD. THis doesn't just give a caster level bonus, it explicitly gives you more and higher level spells per day. At 5 fame you get +1 to a spellcasting class of your choice, and at 35 fame the +1 improves to +3, and you get another +1 in a different class. The end result of this is that you can actually get 17th level casting in two different classes (hitting 17th in your first at 17th level, if you play it that way), or 20/14 if you prefer.

For further reading, here's a good guide (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZFnvgbhjMibHJRft0dl_4gbcMw0-dAMUFYFlsyS7d60/edit?pli=1) for grabbing SLA's to meet such qualifications. I believe somewhere in there it explains in more details why what I've described is rock solid on RAW, and even PFS legal (though the Inner Sea Magic guilds aren't PFS legal - I think?).

Nah, I don't want or need early entry. I'm not trying to become more powerful than I already would be.

I should have said, my character was a level 1 human sorcerer and that wouldn't change.

I just needed to know if what I remembered on caster levels and multiclassing is correct since I couldn't get on the srd.

Note: Also pathfinder devs tend to be a bit weird with their own game ad if they never actually played or read the rules and just make up something from what the question is asked of them.

Explanation: you can't TWF with a two handed weapon and armor spikes because you don't have a hand to wield the spikes... (Paraphrasing).

So even if they say SLA works for early entry... I would be hesitent to use that.

[Snowbluff]

You're CL1/CL1. There are traits for increasing your CL in a certain class, with a max of your HD. For example, +2 Oracle CL, which would cap out at 2 for a level 2 character.

I second using an Aasimar or Tiefling SLAs for entry.

Keep in mind Half-Elves can use Paragon Surge to grab the spells off of the Sorc list when they need it.

[Kraken]

Heh, I'm reminded of TWF being taken away from monks using the same type of 'not enough hands' nonsense, even though it says monks can use their feet and so forth for unarmed strikes, and still make unarmed strikes even with their hands full. :smallbiggrin:

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I know your question has been answered but I just want to toss my vote in favour of continuing with your MT build.

I`m actually playing this exact build and I find it very potent even though I`ve compounded weaknesses by being a crossblooded sorcerer (and thus having 1 less spell known of every level). Though only 2nd level right now, where you are the build allows you to make up for your caster level deficits in many ways. Spell Specialization gives you a caster level boost on a main spell that changes as you level, and oracle contains cleric staples that don`t care overmuch for caster level at all such as healing and combat buffs like bless and divine favour which last 1 minute regardless but are still noticable boosts at lower levels. Additionally magical Lineage on a favoured spell will give a great boost to your power by allowing you to metamagic more efficiently with all those slots you're going to have.

So in essence what you do is you ride the support abilities of your Oracle half until your sorcerer uumph gets up to speed and in my experience it works very well simply because you have so many powerful spells.

Yup! That is what I was going to do. We have a cleric but... He is a new player. I was going to take the less sexy spells so that he can take whatever he wants and we can still have some nice things.

Bless was the first spell I was going to take. Then grab some other buffs and go to town.

Edit: Nice party buffs since those seem to be taken less by new players due to not being attack spells.

[NightbringerGGZ]

So I know you don't want to optimize, but I really would recommend a little bit of tweaking. Otherwise you aren't going to enter MT until level 9 and will be 4 caster levels behind on both classes. The build is going to be painful to level through unless we're talking about a really low op game where RP is more important than combat.

Btw, just to throw out another option. The Ancient Lorekeeper (http://www.pathfindersrd.com/races/core-races/elf/ancient-lorekeeper-oracle-elf) Oracle archetype lets you pick spells off of the Wizard spell list to replace your bonus mystery spells. They're a spell level lower than the spells you'd normally gain (but boosted, so a 1st level spell gained as a 2nd level one) but I find this archetype works better than the Mystic Theurge overall. It's elf-only, but I would house rule that away.

[charcoalninja]

Yup! That is what I was going to do. We have a cleric but... He is a new player. I was going to take the less sexy spells so that he can take whatever he wants and we can still have some nice things.

Bless was the first spell I was going to take. Then grab some other buffs and go to town.

Edit: Nice party buffs since those seem to be taken less by new players due to not being attack spells.

Another great strat to use is to take the summoning spells Oracle side, leaving your sorcerer spells known open for the more unique wizardy battlecontrol and utility magic. That way you can use Sanctuary to make yourself inanely hard to hurt and just summon legions of lantern archons to support and laser everything to death. Mind you that`s late game, but the idea is still very nice.

[watchwood]

So I know you don't want to optimize, but I really would recommend a little bit of tweaking. Otherwise you aren't going to enter MT until level 9 and will be 4 caster levels behind on both classes. The build is going to be painful to level through unless we're talking about a really low op game where RP is more important than combat.

Btw, just to throw out another option. The Ancient Lorekeeper (http://www.pathfindersrd.com/races/core-races/elf/ancient-lorekeeper-oracle-elf) Oracle archetype lets you pick spells off of the Wizard spell list to replace your bonus mystery spells. They're a spell level lower than the spells you'd normally gain (but boosted, so a 1st level spell gained as a 2nd level one) but I find this archetype works better than the Mystic Theurge overall. It's elf-only, but I would house rule that away.

Apparently you missed the part where it's Pathfinder, and SLAs can count as spells for qualifications. With the right race selection (Aasimar, etc), only a single level dip in your off-casting class is needed to begin thuerging. (this was all covered earlier on in the thread).

[charcoalninja]

So I know you don't want to optimize, but I really would recommend a little bit of tweaking. Otherwise you aren't going to enter MT until level 9 and will be 4 caster levels behind on both classes. The build is going to be painful to level through unless we're talking about a really low op game where RP is more important than combat.

Btw, just to throw out another option. The Ancient Lorekeeper (http://www.pathfindersrd.com/races/core-races/elf/ancient-lorekeeper-oracle-elf) Oracle archetype lets you pick spells off of the Wizard spell list to replace your bonus mystery spells. They're a spell level lower than the spells you'd normally gain (but boosted, so a 1st level spell gained as a 2nd level one) but I find this archetype works better than the Mystic Theurge overall. It's elf-only, but I would house rule that away.

EDIT: I goofed, because Sorc and Orc don`t get 3rds until 6th in each. My points still stand though not having 3rds does take you back considerably. I do feel that second level spells are potent enough that your character isn`t going to feel like a liability. Hold person, Shield Other, Scorching Ray, Stinking Cloud, Mirror Image, flaming sphere all are powerful useful magic even at CL5.
END EDIT:
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I know I posted already but I was too quick and didn`t read this one and want to voice my counter opinion.

At level 9 you`re 4 caster levels behind sure, but that still means caster level 5 in both classes which translates into two different sets of 3rd level spells. That`s huge. That does mean that he would have Haste for his party sorc side, Channel Vigor if he wants Oracle side, Silence, Summon monster 3, Scorching Ray (with Spell spec you have 2 rays at CL 7).

If he has the right bloodlines Scorching ray can deal 8d6+8 or 8d6+16 points of damage which is a powerful use of a standard action. In addition he has other support magic like Shield Other, Resist Energy, Restoration, Ghostbane Dirge, Greater Magic Weapon, etc.

Basically if they fight anything that doesn`t have SR he can blast its face off with Scorching Ray or use standard game winners like Glitterdust, Hold Person or Stinking Cloud, and if they DO have spell Resistance he can go into support mode and use Divine Favour, Greater Magic Weapon, Shield Other, Bless, Haste, etc to empower his party mates to kick the crap out of things with a vengeance.

I know people really make a huge fuss over the MT being behind in CL, but in play it really is not as weak as people make it out to be especially with a Sorc/oracle combo.

My build for example:
Crossblooded Marid/Boreal Sorcerer 4 - Turn all energy spells cold; +1 DC on Cold spells
Waves Oracle (deaf) 4 - All spells cast as silent, see through mist, freezing spells (damaging spells that allow saves slow their targets as per slow spell for 1 round if save is failed).
I have Magical Lineage trait (Scorching Ray)
My feats at this point are:
1) Spell Focus Evo (+1 DCs)
3) Spell Specialization
5) Rime Spell
7) Empower Spell (Spell spec changed to Scorching Ray)
9) Craft Wonderous Item

So now my meger CL 5/5 MT can create utility items for the party easily while we travel, has rockin face skills because CHA classes for out of combat, and in combat can summon Lantern Archons, Heal people, take damage for them, empower them to kill people faster OR burn a 3rd level Sorc slot to lob a 12d6 Scorching Ray, or an 8d6 Rime Scorching ray that they need to make a save against (DC 20 (18cha+2spell+2feat+BL+2item)) for each of the two rays (so 2 saves) or be slowed 1 round and entangled for 1d4 rounds from my level 2 slots.

To really strike the power home I can lay down Obscuring mist to give myself total concealment from which to launch all my spells and support because oracle lets me see through the fog, and my deafness lets me auto silent spell everything so I don`t have to speak to cast anything thus vastly improving my ability to hide in the fog.

That`s just one example of an MT build that can really excell.
This was lining a lot up, but the baseline class with just the constant access to 3rd level and lower spells is tremendous. A 10th level bard for example only has a single 4th level spell off a single inferior list by comparison and I don`t think anyone is going to argue that a bard can`t keep pace by level 10.

[NightbringerGGZ]

Apparently you missed the part where it's Pathfinder, and SLAs can count as spells for qualifications. With the right race selection (Aasimar, etc), only a single level dip in your off-casting class is needed to begin thuerging. (this was all covered earlier on in the thread).

OP said he didn't want to use the early entry trick. It's also a ruling that many DMs disagree with and might not allow.

No need to be so hostile. I agree the Aasimar Oracle 1/Sorc 1 would be the best way to go.

[Eldonauran]

OP said he didn't want to use the early entry trick. It's also a ruling that many DMs disagree with and might not allow.

I am one of those DMs that utterly squash any attempts at early entry to the Mystic Theurge with spell-like abilities. Never going to happen at my table.

That aside, I'd would suggest to the OP to run this 3rd party feat by the DM. Improved Caster Level (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/kobold-press/general-feats---3rd-party---kobold-press/improved-caster-level). You are already going to be 2 spell levels behind on both sides of the casting classes, the least the DM can do is let you keep your caster level. It is something that I would allow at my table, barring certain exceptions.

[watchwood]

I am one of those DMs that utterly squash any attempts at early entry to the Mystic Theurge with spell-like abilities. Never going to happen at my table.

That aside, I'd would suggest to the OP to run this 3rd party feat by the DM. Improved Caster Level (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/kobold-press/general-feats---3rd-party---kobold-press/improved-caster-level). You are already going to be 2 spell levels behind on both sides of the casting classes, the least the DM can do is let you keep your caster level. It is something that I would allow at my table, barring certain exceptions.

I'd never play a Mystic Thurge without some kind of early entry trick. Taking a 3 level setback to both of your casting classes is a major hit to your ability as a spellcaster. Especially when Thuerging only gives you versatility and endurance, and not any kind of action-economy cheese (see the Magus for a good example of that).

A Sorcicle Thurge without early entry is 4 levels and 2 spell levels behind any pure wizard or cleric or druid of the same level, and he's even more underpowered during levels 4-6 (or somewhat more so at 7-8) of the build.

[Kraken]

Personally, I think it was utterly stupid that Paizo came out and said SLAs count as being able to cast spells. I'd much rather SLAs were neither arcane or divine, and continued to be mostly separate from spells, mechanically. I don't have a reason for this, PF's stance on them just seems fundamentally strange to me.

But with that said, I don't think the level 4 MT trick is any more overpowered than cleric20 or wizard20, unless combined with the Inner Sea Magic guild rules. You're basically trading the class abilities of each (including your race's favored class ability, or +1 HP or +1 skill) for more spells per day from a bigger list. And while the class abilities of clerics and wizards aren't much, there's enough overlap between the cleric and wizard spell lists that I'd say the 2/1 loss of caster levels, loss of class features, and favored class abilities balance against the gains in endurance, in terms of spells per day, and the gains in niches, in terms of much larger spell access.

[Eldonauran]

I'd never play a Mystic Thurge without some kind of early entry trick. Taking a 3 level setback to both of your casting classes is a major hit to your ability as a spellcaster. Especially when Thuerging only gives you versatility and endurance, and not any kind of action-economy cheese (see the Magus for a good example of that).

A Sorcicle Thurge without early entry is 4 levels and 2 spell levels behind any pure wizard or cleric or druid of the same level, and he's even more underpowered during levels 4-6 (or somewhat more so at 7-8) of the build.

Playing a Mystic Theurge without early entry shenanigans is not for everyone. Its a class that goes against every grain of optimization rules on this board, especially since the kind of games a Mystic Theurge excels at are not commonly seen played.

I adore the class for these reasons and, given the knowledge that I am going to be playing in a game that will make it to level 20, I will default to playing one at the first opportunity. A Mystic Theurge is a character that starts off stronger, slowly dims, sputters and then catches, only to start burning brighter and brighter.

Would I play a Mystic Theurge with two spontaneous casters? I would be hesitant to, unless Improved Caster Level was a viable feat choice. I tend to play spontaneous/prepared theurges, sorc/druid being my favorite.

A pure caster is always going to have better spells than a Mystic Theurge. A Mystic Theurge is always going to have more spells than a pure caster.


Personally, I think it was utterly stupid that Paizo came out and said SLAs count as being able to cast spells.

Personally, I think stupid is an understatement. Every iota of my game mastery and knowledge rebelled at that decision and I refuse to acknowledge its existance. I used to be able to say I loved everything about Pathfinder. Now, I have to say ... except for that.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I am one of those DMs that utterly squash any attempts at early entry to the Mystic Theurge with spell-like abilities. Never going to happen at my table.

That aside, I'd would suggest to the OP to run this 3rd party feat by the DM. Improved Caster Level (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/kobold-press/general-feats---3rd-party---kobold-press/improved-caster-level). You are already going to be 2 spell levels behind on both sides of the casting classes, the least the DM can do is let you keep your caster level. It is something that I would allow at my table, barring certain exceptions.

Well the DM already said that he will allow 3rd party stuff (i think) and I'll check that by him...

I actually was going to ask if there was a feat like that but you beat me to it... Thanks!

[watchwood]

I adore the class for these reasons and, given the knowledge that I am going to be playing in a game that will make it to level 20, I will default to playing one at the first opportunity. A Mystic Theurge is a character that starts off stronger, slowly dims, sputters and then catches, only to start burning brighter and brighter.

Except he never really catches up. Some extra low level spells per day doesn't really offset being 2 spell levels behind. It's the difference between dimension door and teleport, or wind wall and wall of force, or plane shift and gate.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Except he never really catches up. Some extra low level spells per day doesn't really offset being 2 spell levels behind. It's the difference between dimension door and teleport, or wind wall and wall of force, or plane shift and gate.

Cha base caster that has UMD as a class skill and the entire Wizard/Sorcerer and Cleric spell list to play with.

[Eldonauran]

Except he never really catches up. Some extra low level spells per day doesn't really offset being 2 spell levels behind. It's the difference between dimension door and teleport, or wind wall and wall of force, or plane shift and gate.

That's true. He won't catch up. That's the problem most people get stuck on. The Mystic Theurge doesn't have to catch up. He doesn't need or want to. He has willingly sacrificed some of his spell progression to be second best at two different things, than the best in either. It is a very different play style to a lot of optimizers and flat out alien to others.


Cha base caster that has UMD as a class skill and the entire Wizard/Sorcerer and Cleric spell list to play with.

That too. I think the common saying around here is versatility is power. If you have the right tool for the job, every job, every day ... well. I don't see too much standing in your way.

[charcoalninja]

That's true. He won't catch up. That's the problem most people get stuck on. The Mystic Theurge doesn't have to catch up. He doesn't need or want to. He has willingly sacrificed some of his spell progression to be second best at two different things, than the best in either. It is a very different play style to a lot of optimizers and flat out alien to others.



That too. I think the common saying around here is versatility is power. If you have the right tool for the job, every job, every day ... well. I don't see too much standing in your way.

Only 7th level spells is still a solid Tier 1 anyway so you really have no real loss in ability, you just use different tools to do the job.

[icefractal]

Four levels behind in both is a lot though. I mean, that's worse spellcasting than a cohort would have. In fact, if you took Leadership, your cohort would be a better Sorcerer than you.

If you level evenly, you're still casting 1st level spells at 6th level. Unless you're group goes through the early levels at lightning speed, that's going to be a very painful start.

What might be good, if you don't want to use the SLA thing, is a semi-early entry using the Magical Lineage trait. Using it with Heighten, you could qualify at Oracle 4/Sorcerer 1, hence being just one level behind in Oracle (two levels behind a Cleric, because of the spontaneous tax). Your Sorcerer casting will still be sub-cohort level, but at least you have some decent spells.


Incidentally, if I was going to write the Mystic Theurge, I would go with the CR precedent that "+2 levels = x2", meaning that being two levels behind "X", makes you a "half-X". Therefore, I would make the prerequisites be just 1st level casting on both sides, but not give any advancement at MT 1. The result would be two levels behind on both sides, aka two halves, aka one whole. :smallbiggrin:

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I know it blows people's mind... But early entry into this prestige class is the furthest thing from what I could ever want for this character. :smalltongue:

So what I'm going to do is switch my first level feat (well one of them, I'm human) to Improved Caster Level due to retraining. Other feat is Spell Focus (Evocation) (yes I know, evocation isn't the best school, this isn't going to change and I want it this way).

Take my second level as Oracle.

Spell Stuff

Sorcerer (1st) (Caster Level 2): Stumble Gap, Ear Piercing Scream

Oracle (1st) (Caster Level 2): Bless, Magic Weapon, Cure Light Wounds (Free), Burning Hands (Free/Curse)

Sorcerer Bloodline (Storm Born): X times/day give shock property to weapon

Oracle Curse (Blackened): -4 to weapon attacks

Tinkering (Ex): Gian from Archetype Oracle Seeker, the party rogue doesn't have disable device, it would be a decent way to help the party out... The rogue finds the traps and I disable them. Go team work!

Oracle Mystery: I'm thinking of the mystery that replaces Dex with Cha for armor class. I won't be getting much use out of the others...

Any suggestions on a good mystery that I may be missing? I thought about Moon Beam also, sounds like fun times blinding people... I could call the beam "science" so that I may blind them with science...

[Axinian]

I'd go with the one that gives Cha to AC. If you're gonna be so far behind in spell levels, you should make your CHA even higher than normal to make your low level slots harder to resist. Spell Focus (evocation) isn't that bad, there are good non-blasting spells (*cough* Prismatic Spray *cough*) that benefit from it. If you're gonna do blasting, should make it hard to save against :smallsmile:

The Theurgy (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/ultimateMagicFeats.html) feat seems like a good choice... Even if it's not you gotta take it anyway. What kind of Theurge isn't Theurgy :smalltongue:

[Particle_Man]

So what are you going to advance at levels 19 and 20?

[SpawnOfMorbo]

So what are you going to advance at levels 19 and 20?

Probably something simple like sorcerer 2